Cabe, he has refuted your claims with facts, figures, and statistics....
You are the one not able to make a persuasive argument. I will wait for one from you (taps foot).
Waiting....
What facts? He said that it would cost the government less. But if it costs the government less then why do all of those governments take more of their citizens money then America does? And even if a National Healthcare system would somehow end up costing less then what they currently are spending do you honestly think that it would lower our tax rate at all? No of course not. The government would use it as an excuse to raise taxes and then would cite the same countries as examples. IE "well if you want great healthcare like France, Germany, Sweden, and the UK have then you need to give us 40-55% of your income"
You live in a democracy. You can do something about this. If not, I fear it is time for another revolution. It took France 3 revolutions to get where they are.
He said that America's Healthcare was the worst and cited infant mortality rates. I refuted that claim by showing that infant mortality rates can't be linked to quality healthcare in a cause and effect relationship. It is a coorelation and makes a nice talking point because everyone loves Babies and doesn't want them to die, but the fact remains that the quality of America's healthcare can not be linked to causing the higher infant moratlity rate that our country has.
I never said the US healthcare was the worst. Of course not. I was simply saying that other countries spend LESS and do BETTER.
Then you stated the reasons why infants die. Well, yea, if you take those away there wouldn't be any more reason for health care, now would there?
Is it so impossible to UNDERSTAND that you are paying 15% of your taxes when you would only have to pay 9% for a better system?
You're already paying for other people. Hence why you have a government at all. If you don't want that, buy a bunker in the mountains and wait for a nuclear winter. You could be paying less...
So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Is it so impossible to UNDERSTAND that you are paying 15% of your taxes when you would only have to pay 9% for a better system?
You're already paying for other people. Hence why you have a government at all. If you don't want that, buy a bunker in the mountains and wait for a nuclear winter. You could be paying less...
So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.
Now use your logic.
And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US.
BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
Is it so impossible to UNDERSTAND that you are paying 15% of your taxes when you would only have to pay 9% for a better system?
You're already paying for other people. Hence why you have a government at all. If you don't want that, buy a bunker in the mountains and wait for a nuclear winter. You could be paying less...
So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.
Now use your logic.
And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US.
BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
You do realize that that 15% of GDP include private healthcare right? So if the government was providing a 9% of GDP healthcare system that would actually double the amount of tax dollars spent on healthcare.
According to the Budget the US government will spend 673 Billion dollars on healthcare in 2007. Medical care was a total of 1.5 trillion dollars in 2006 in the US out of the 13.130 Trillion dollars of GDP. So actually our taxes would have to increase considerably to offset a national healthcare system. (and I when I say considerably we are talking about doubling what they currently take out for healthcare).
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Moore's an ass. He's as partisan as any of the Neocon elite he chooses to war with and his film's defiantly have a political agenda attached to them.
That said the state of US health care is simply unacceptable. It should be an embarrassment to all Americans that we have let the system get so far out of line. Our inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness apparently only apply to you if you have enough money to pay the cover charge. I believe steadfastly in capitalism but not at the expense of my neighbors life. It's immoral.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.
Now use your logic. And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US. BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
Socialism refers to a broad array of movements and ideologies which aim to improve society through collective action and to a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.
Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
National health care is not a socialist economic system.
You have economic systems and political systems. The political system in the USA is a Constitutional Republic and the economic system is capitalism.
National health care will not change anything. The USA will remain a capitalist economic system and a Constitutional Republic. The only things that will change is that everyone is covered, health care costs will go down, pharmaceuticals will go down, and the 18,000 people dieing each year from no coverage will not happen.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Moore's an ass. He's as partisan as any of the Neocon elite he chooses to war with and his film's defiantly have a political agenda attached to them. That said the state of US health care is simply unacceptable. It should be an embarrassment to all Americans that we have let the system get so far out of line. Our inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness apparently only apply to you if you have enough money to pay the cover charge. I believe steadfastly in capitalism but not at the expense of my neighbors life. It's immoral. Just one man's opinion...
I agree with you, but I do not think a National Healthcare system is the right answer. Not in our country. If anything at all they should cap the % of profit that can be made from the healthcare industry including Pharmacuticals. That I would be ok with. Just as I would be ok with a Cap on the profit that can be made from Oil as well. I always thought it was weird that it was illegal for certain jobs to go on strike to get better pay because it was against National interest and security (for instance the military) yet high profits for these industries is also against National interest and security and is allowed to exist.
That just shows why big government is bad. I wish that we could return to a government more grounded in the Constitution. And for a prior poster, yes our country was founded to be a collection of states not one central government ruling over all. So different States should have different rules that is what the Constitiution and our founding fathers intended to occur.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.
Now use your logic. And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US. BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
Socialism refers to a broad array of movements and ideologies which aim to improve society through collective action and to a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.
Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
The percentage of the US tax revenue (so not the private health care included) is STILL higher in the US than in other countries while YIELDING LESS RESULTS.
Your arguments claiming that people would have to spend more on taxes for health care than if they would pay a company don't make sense either. 15% of GDP is 15% of GDP and it's the people that pay those taxes (and the companies). Doesn't matter whether you pay it to a company or the government, right?
With the minor difference that a government can be held accountable for its actions (elections) while a bunch of companies can work together to rig the system (*cough* lobbies *cough*), while nobody can tell them not to. Their only goal is profit.
BTW, there are a few elements in universal health care that remind of socialism. Theer are other elements that remind of nationalism.
It's a concept that exists in itself and can be adopted by any country that wants to do the best for its people and wants to be the most cempetitive.
Country Life expectancy Infant mortality rate Physicians per 1000 people Nurses per 1000 people Per capita expenditure on health (USD) Healthcare costs as a percent of GDP % of government revenue spent on health % of health costs paid by government
The percentage of the US tax revenue (so not the private health care included) is STILL higher in the US than in other countries while YIELDING LESS RESULTS. Your arguments claiming that people would have to spend more on taxes for health care than if they would pay a company don't make sense either. 15% of GDP is 15% of GDP and it's the people that pay those taxes (and the companies). Doesn't matter whether you pay it to a company or the government, right? With the minor difference that a government can be held accountable for its actions (elections) while a bunch of companies can work together to rig the system (*cough* lobbies *cough*), while nobody can tell them not to. Their only goal is profit.
BTW, there are a few elements in universal health care that remind of socialism. Theer are other elements that remind of nationalism. It's a concept that exists in itself and can be adopted by any country that wants to do the best for its people and wants to be the most cempetitive.
Actually it makes a huge difference in if it is 15% of GDP being provided in whole by tax dollars or 15% by private medical care. See some people only pay when they use medical care and are still part of that 15%. If you have no medical care (which I know a few people tht didn't because insurance in essence is a scam) and pay for your care in cash then you are still part of that 15%. For instance I currently pay nothing for medical care (one of the benefits of being in the Military) but if a universal health care plan went into effect I would be paying twice the amount I currently do for taxes towards healthcare and still wouldn't be using it.
Currently each person in America pays to the government 2,243 dollars per year for healthcare costs (average) in order to provide the same healthcare that say germany provides we would have to increase the amount each american pays to the government for healthcare costs by 630 dollars per year. That equals 52 dollars per month more in taxes that each american would be charged. That doesn't even take into account the disparity between what our healthcare industry currently costs (1.5 Trillion) and what say germany spends on theirs currently (236 billion dollars) Right now 900 Billion dollars of healthcare costs are private. How do you exactly plan on making all of that cost vanish?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad? You want someone to pay your bills for you? Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all. So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra? Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature. If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
You're right, people can work teh system and even if you don't realize it you happen to be one of them. Early diagnoses is the key to cost effective treatment, so seeing your doctor on a regular bases is one of the best ways to bring down heath care costs. As it is you are just driving up risk therefore driving up the cost of health insurance for everyone, and other people should be required to pay for your negligence.
Even without insurance your negligence places a financial burden on the rest of the country. An accident or an illness is going to mean *someone* has to pay either to provide you the medical coverage you lacked the foresight to obtain on your own or to support you because you can no longer work and support yourself.
It doesn’t even matter if these things haven’t happened yet because of the millions of people in your position it’s happened to some of them, and someone else has had to foot the bill for them.
You just questioned whether or not health care is at all necessary. This is just insane. You don't use it, so you don't need it?
Basic statistics aboutinfant mortality and life expectancy prove the US is doing worse than other countries. The US is less productive than some countries that do manage to have universal health care.
Your only argument that barely managed to partially stand against universal health care is that people would have to pay more taxes.
And even then you refuse to consider the fact that other countries spend LESS of their tax revenue on health care and provide better health care. Just insane.
Whatever funded and rational argument I manage to prove to be right without a doubt, you will keep dismissing elements of a civilized society until there is no reason left to not cower in caves, hiding from dangerous animals.
Just stop with that little trick while you still are able to defend the need for a barely functional private health care...
You just questioned whether or not health care is at all necessary. This is just insane. You don't use it, so you don't need it?
Basic statistics aboutinfant mortality and life expectancy prove the US is doing worse than other countries. The US is less productive than some countries that do manage to have universal health care. Your only argument that barely managed to partially stand against universal health care is that people would have to pay more taxes. And even then you refuse to consider the fact that other countries spend LESS of their tax revenue on health care and provide better health care. Just insane.
Whatever funded and rational argument I manage to prove to be right without a doubt, you will keep dismissing elements of a civilized society until there is no reason left to not cower in caves, hiding from dangerous animals. Just stop with that little trick while you still are able to defend the need for a barely functional private health care...
Where did you show that they spent less of their tax revenue to provide their healthcare? Yes they spend less of there GDP but I seriously doubt they spend less of their tax revenue.
Basic healthcare should be a choice that is what freedom is. It is not necessary it is an option. For instance my Mother-in-Law has gone to see the doctor less then 6 times in her life. She is 68 years old. Yes healthcare and health insurance is great if you get sick, but what about the countless numbers of people that don't?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad? You want someone to pay your bills for you? Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all. So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra? Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature. If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
You're right, people can work teh system and even if you don't realize it you happen to be one of them. Early diagnoses is the key to cost effective treatment, so seeing your doctor on a regular bases is one of the best ways to bring down heath care costs. As it is you are just driving up risk therefore driving up the cost of health insurance for everyone, and other people should be required to pay for your negligence.
Even without insurance your negligence places a financial burden on the rest of the country. An accident or an illness is going to mean *someone* has to pay either to provide you the medical coverage you lacked the foresight to obtain on your own or to support you because you can no longer work and support yourself.
It doesn’t even matter if these things haven’t happened yet because of the millions of people in your position it’s happened to some of them, and someone else has had to foot the bill for them.
No one should have to foot the bill for them. If their family or community doesn't want to help them then oh well they are screwed. Too many people are looking for a hand out and want the government to provide for them.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
You just questioned whether or not health care is at all necessary. This is just insane. You don't use it, so you don't need it?
Basic statistics aboutinfant mortality and life expectancy prove the US is doing worse than other countries. The US is less productive than some countries that do manage to have universal health care. Your only argument that barely managed to partially stand against universal health care is that people would have to pay more taxes. And even then you refuse to consider the fact that other countries spend LESS of their tax revenue on health care and provide better health care. Just insane.
Whatever funded and rational argument I manage to prove to be right without a doubt, you will keep dismissing elements of a civilized society until there is no reason left to not cower in caves, hiding from dangerous animals. Just stop with that little trick while you still are able to defend the need for a barely functional private health care...
Where did you show that they spent less of their tax revenue to provide their healthcare? Yes they spend less of there GDP but I seriously doubt they spend less of their tax revenue.
Basic healthcare should be a choice that is what freedom is. It is not necessary it is an option. For instance my Mother-in-Law has gone to see the doctor less then 6 times in her life. She is 68 years old. Yes healthcare and health insurance is great if you get sick, but what about the countless numbers of people that don't?
Where is says that they use less of their tax revenue:
I have the freedom to not become bankrupt when I get sick. I have the freedom to still be productive when I'm unlucky. I know more people who have been genuinly sick than people who have not been.
Please continue to refute basic human rights. Makes you look great.
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad? You want someone to pay your bills for you? Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all. See, if you're a true socialist, utopian, you don't worry about what you will get out of it, but take pride in the fact that you are helping others less fortunate for you. See JFK, "ask not...."; RFK, "You are the privleged...." speeches. Like you, I seldom go to the doctor, once in the last 5 years for a physical, and every 6 months for a dental cleaning. However I watched my mother die of colon cancer, my father die of kidney failure, and do not feel right denying medical care to those most in need. So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra? Viagra, boob jobs, cosmetic and other elective, non essential surgery/treatment need not be covered. However, a person without health coverage should be able to have strep throat treated without resorting to a hospital emergency room. That is a contributing factor to driving up our health care costs, unnecessary emergency room usage. Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature. Why must you always receive something in return? Why would you fake conditions to get your money's worth? Isn't it enough to know that if your health suddenly turns the health care system is going to be there for you? You may be healthy today, but that can change quickly. Things happen in life, and can be unforeseen. If you are burned in a fire, isn't it nice to know that the health care system will treat your burns and pay for restorative cosmetic surgery regardless of your income level? If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it. Ultimately, you will get your money's worth. Do you have health insurance now? If so, you, or your employer, are paying for something that you receive no benefit for. Do you have auto insurance? Do you crash your car every year to receive a refund of your collision insurance? Do you have homeowners insurance? Do you torch you residence every year to receive a benefit?
Originally posted by Neanderthal If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
You're right, people can work teh system and even if you don't realize it you happen to be one of them. Early diagnoses is the key to cost effective treatment, so seeing your doctor on a regular bases is one of the best ways to bring down heath care costs. As it is you are just driving up risk therefore driving up the cost of health insurance for everyone, and other people should be required to pay for your negligence.
Even without insurance your negligence places a financial burden on the rest of the country. An accident or an illness is going to mean *someone* has to pay either to provide you the medical coverage you lacked the foresight to obtain on your own or to support you because you can no longer work and support yourself.
It doesn’t even matter if these things haven’t happened yet because of the millions of people in your position it’s happened to some of them, and someone else has had to foot the bill for them.
No sorry, apply your socialist logic to someone else because it doesn't apply to me.
As a matter of fact the worst injury I ever suffered happened when I didn't have health coverage of any kind and I really couldn't afford the bills. I WAS offered government assistance and I DID turn it down. I practice what I preach whether you want to believe it or not. I DID pay the bills myself even though it was a struggle, and I have no regrets about it.
And honest to God I feel so strongly about this that I would rather lay in a ditch and die than to have a nanny state controlling my life. It's getting bad enough as it is, we sure as hell don't need to go any further down that road. Health care is only one aspect of this. I don't take government money for anything, in any way. But if this country is pushed far enough into socialism (and yes, what you guys are talking about is socialism. Putting other labels on it doesn't change what it is.) then I would make it my mission in life to rip off the government as much as I could just to do whatever damage I could to help bring the socialist system down. I'm not sure where the tipping point would be but I'm sure I'll know it if we get there.
One of the reasons for high health care costs in the US is that the poor, who lack health coverage, cannot get treatment for day to day illness, strep throat, flu, bronchitis, etc because they have no money and no health insurance. So, when they, or their child, get sick they cannot go to the local family doctor, they must go to the hospital emergency room. Not for profit hospitals receive a tax exemption from the government in exchange for providing medical care to the poor.
So, the not for profit hospital must maintain a larger emergency room/staff to deal with the day to day illness of the poor. This costs money, money that is subsidized through the government tax abatement.
The for profit health care hospitals are not allowed to turn away serious emergency cases. So, if a poor, uninsured person must go to emergency, the cost for treatment is not absorbed by the hospital, but passed on through higher costs to the paying public and insurance companies. So, for example, an inner city gunshot wound goes to the for profit emergency room, because the not for profit emergency room is at capacity treating flu cases.
National health care would allow the poor to go to a neighborhood family doctor for treatment of everyday disease, clear out the emergency rooms, and allow them to deal strictly with emergency cases. It reallocates the staffing and equipment needed from the more expensive setting, to a lower cost setting.
It brings down the health insurance costs, premiums, and distributes health care where it is most needed. A poor person is not going to "game" the system by constantly going to the doctor, they will go when they are sick. The "gaming" of the system comes from health care providers that wish to charge the government for services not performed. That is one form of Medicare/Medicaid fraud that the government investigates and prosecutes on a continual basis. That will not change whether we have the current, or a national, health care system.
You're right, people can work teh system and even if you don't realize it you happen to be one of them. Early diagnoses is the key to cost effective treatment, so seeing your doctor on a regular bases is one of the best ways to bring down heath care costs. As it is you are just driving up risk therefore driving up the cost of health insurance for everyone, and other people should be required to pay for your negligence.
Even without insurance your negligence places a financial burden on the rest of the country. An accident or an illness is going to mean *someone* has to pay either to provide you the medical coverage you lacked the foresight to obtain on your own or to support you because you can no longer work and support yourself.
It doesn’t even matter if these things haven’t happened yet because of the millions of people in your position it’s happened to some of them, and someone else has had to foot the bill for them.
No one should have to foot the bill for them. If their family or community doesn't want to help them then oh well they are screwed. Too many people are looking for a hand out and want the government to provide for them.
Exactly.
If someone wants to take the risk of not having private health insurance and not saving for an emergancy then that is his/her choice. THAT is freedom. But along with it should come the burden of responsibility for his/her choices.
If I don't have health coverage and I have no savings. And I get into an accident or develop a life threating illness. Nobody has to pay for me. Just let me FUCKING DIE. Seriously, I won't hold it against you. It was my choice.
I would rather have my freedom with the risk that my free choices might hurt me than to lose my freedom so I could feel safe and protected by the nanny state.
I wouldn't piss on 99% of the human population to put them out if they were on fire.
I damn sure resent having to pay exorbitant taxes so some brood sow can stuff her fat ass full of bonbons on my dime.
But, the simple fact is, we're already paying for the Medicare/Medicaid people directly via taxes. We pay for the uninsured, or the under-insured indirectly via higher premiums, and higher charges at the Docs office, or the Hospital.
Hell, I'm no fan of the government, but I honestly think a properly run National Health System would be cheaper than the clusterfuck we have now.
As for the anecdotal evidence about the system in Canada, UK, etc, taking years to get anything done, have you ever tried getting anything non life threatening done here in the states? Try getting in to see a GP at the local med center without a referral from the ER.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.
Now use your logic. And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US. BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
Socialism refers to a broad array of movements and ideologies which aim to improve society through collective action and to a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.
Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
The percentage of the US tax revenue (so not the private health care included) is STILL higher in the US than in other countries while YIELDING LESS RESULTS.
Your arguments claiming that people would have to spend more on taxes for health care than if they would pay a company don't make sense either. 15% of GDP is 15% of GDP and it's the people that pay those taxes (and the companies). Doesn't matter whether you pay it to a company or the government, right?
With the minor difference that a government can be held accountable for its actions (elections) while a bunch of companies can work together to rig the system (*cough* lobbies *cough*), while nobody can tell them not to. Their only goal is profit.
BTW, there are a few elements in universal health care that remind of socialism. Theer are other elements that remind of nationalism.
It's a concept that exists in itself and can be adopted by any country that wants to do the best for its people and wants to be the most cempetitive.
Your analysis addresses only tax revenue, it fails to address the tax revenue that is NOT collected by allowing tax abatements to not for profit hospitals in the US. There is actually less efficiency than you project.
No sorry, apply your socialist logic to someone else because it doesn't apply to me. As a matter of fact the worst injury I ever suffered happened when I didn't have health coverage of any kind and I really couldn't afford the bills. I WAS offered government assistance and I DID turn it down. I practice what I preach whether you want to believe it or not. I DID pay the bills myself even though it was a struggle, and I have no regrets about it. And honest to God I feel so strongly about this that I would rather lay in a ditch and die than to have a nanny state controlling my life. It's getting bad enough as it is, we sure as hell don't need to go any further down that road. Health care is only one aspect of this. I don't take government money for anything, in any way. But if this country is pushed far enough into socialism (and yes, what you guys are talking about is socialism. Putting other labels on it doesn't change what it is.) then I would make it my mission in life to rip off the government as much as I could just to do whatever damage I could to help bring the socialist system down. I'm not sure where the tipping point would be but I'm sure I'll know it if we get there.
But you DO take government money in any way every day of your life. Tax dollars paid to the government subsidize our interstate highway system, our air traffic control system, inspections of food and drugs, law enforcement and security, education, etc. Almost every facet of American life involves touching some good or service that has been subjected to a government service or subsidy.
Eat peanut butter, that is government subsidized. Eat corn, same. Drink Milk, same. Eat beef, same. Breathe the air, same. Drink the water, same. Drive a car, same. It is all subject to either a direct government subsidy or a subsidy in the form of inspection and/or regulation. It all comes out of tax dollars.
Go ahead and rip off the government, you will eventually receive a direct subsidy in the form of a jail cell and meals.
Some interesting information on France's "Free" healthcare:
The bad news is that the French national health service is not free. You must pay for almost everything, even a routine visit to your local GP (20 euros per visit at the time of writing) or a stay in hospital. After you've paid, social services will refund a portion of the cost. The amount of refund varies from 0% up to 100% depending on the type of medical care received and the circumstances, but generally works out about 70%. Consequently, you end up around 30% out of pocket. The main exception for this is very low income families, which essentially receive medical care for free. Note that you only receive the 70% refund if you have social security cover in France.
If you do not require frequent or major medical care, this is not a problem. However, if for any reason you require substantial medical care (e.g. if you have an accident and need an operation), the non-refunded portion can be substantial. To avoid this you can take out medical health insurance. The cost of insurance varies depending on the policy you purchase, but a fairly standard policy can be had for about 50 euros a month.
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Comments
Then you stated the reasons why infants die. Well, yea, if you take those away there wouldn't be any more reason for health care, now would there?
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So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.Now use your logic.
And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US.
BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
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So you're saying that the government is already taking my money to pay for socialist programs...which is true.
But that by bloating the government even MORE and adding even MORE socialist programs then they would be taking LESS of my money.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Consider the amount of red tape 15% of GDP spenditure produces. Then compare that to the amount of red tape 9% of GDP spenditure would produce.Now use your logic.
And how can you NOT buy it? Dozens of other countries apply it successfully. And do better in all fields (even research in some cases) than the US.
BTW, stop with linking those programs to socialism. What is said to be a basic human right is not to be linked with petty politics. It's called humanism. And if you refuse to believe in that idea then you should get in your time machine and travell back to before the rennaissance and enlightenment.
You do realize that that 15% of GDP include private healthcare right? So if the government was providing a 9% of GDP healthcare system that would actually double the amount of tax dollars spent on healthcare.According to the Budget the US government will spend 673 Billion dollars on healthcare in 2007. Medical care was a total of 1.5 trillion dollars in 2006 in the US out of the 13.130 Trillion dollars of GDP. So actually our taxes would have to increase considerably to offset a national healthcare system. (and I when I say considerably we are talking about doubling what they currently take out for healthcare).
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Moore's an ass. He's as partisan as any of the Neocon elite he chooses to war with and his film's defiantly have a political agenda attached to them.
That said the state of US health care is simply unacceptable. It should be an embarrassment to all Americans that we have let the system get so far out of line. Our inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness apparently only apply to you if you have enough money to pay the cover charge. I believe steadfastly in capitalism but not at the expense of my neighbors life. It's immoral.
Just one man's opinion...
Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
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National health care is not a socialist economic system.
You have economic systems and political systems. The political system in the USA is a Constitutional Republic and the economic system is capitalism.
National health care will not change anything. The USA will remain a capitalist economic system and a Constitutional Republic. The only things that will change is that everyone is covered, health care costs will go down, pharmaceuticals will go down, and the 18,000 people dieing each year from no coverage will not happen.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
That just shows why big government is bad. I wish that we could return to a government more grounded in the Constitution. And for a prior poster, yes our country was founded to be a collection of states not one central government ruling over all. So different States should have different rules that is what the Constitiution and our founding fathers intended to occur.
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Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
The percentage of the US tax revenue (so not the private health care included) is STILL higher in the US than in other countries while YIELDING LESS RESULTS.
Your arguments claiming that people would have to spend more on taxes for health care than if they would pay a company don't make sense either. 15% of GDP is 15% of GDP and it's the people that pay those taxes (and the companies). Doesn't matter whether you pay it to a company or the government, right?
With the minor difference that a government can be held accountable for its actions (elections) while a bunch of companies can work together to rig the system (*cough* lobbies *cough*), while nobody can tell them not to. Their only goal is profit.
BTW, there are a few elements in universal health care that remind of socialism. Theer are other elements that remind of nationalism.
It's a concept that exists in itself and can be adopted by any country that wants to do the best for its people and wants to be the most cempetitive.
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Currently each person in America pays to the government 2,243 dollars per year for healthcare costs (average) in order to provide the same healthcare that say germany provides we would have to increase the amount each american pays to the government for healthcare costs by 630 dollars per year. That equals 52 dollars per month more in taxes that each american would be charged. That doesn't even take into account the disparity between what our healthcare industry currently costs (1.5 Trillion) and what say germany spends on theirs currently (236 billion dollars) Right now 900 Billion dollars of healthcare costs are private. How do you exactly plan on making all of that cost vanish?
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You just questioned whether or not health care is at all necessary. This is just insane. You don't use it, so you don't need it?
Basic statistics aboutinfant mortality and life expectancy prove the US is doing worse than other countries. The US is less productive than some countries that do manage to have universal health care.
Your only argument that barely managed to partially stand against universal health care is that people would have to pay more taxes.
And even then you refuse to consider the fact that other countries spend LESS of their tax revenue on health care and provide better health care. Just insane.
Whatever funded and rational argument I manage to prove to be right without a doubt, you will keep dismissing elements of a civilized society until there is no reason left to not cower in caves, hiding from dangerous animals.
Just stop with that little trick while you still are able to defend the need for a barely functional private health care...
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Basic healthcare should be a choice that is what freedom is. It is not necessary it is an option. For instance my Mother-in-Law has gone to see the doctor less then 6 times in her life. She is 68 years old. Yes healthcare and health insurance is great if you get sick, but what about the countless numbers of people that don't?
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No one should have to foot the bill for them. If their family or community doesn't want to help them then oh well they are screwed. Too many people are looking for a hand out and want the government to provide for them.
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Basic healthcare should be a choice that is what freedom is. It is not necessary it is an option. For instance my Mother-in-Law has gone to see the doctor less then 6 times in her life. She is 68 years old. Yes healthcare and health insurance is great if you get sick, but what about the countless numbers of people that don't?
Where is says that they use less of their tax revenue:% of government revenue
spent on health
% of health costs paid
by government
I have the freedom to not become bankrupt when I get sick. I have the freedom to still be productive when I'm unlucky. I know more people who have been genuinly sick than people who have not been.
Please continue to refute basic human rights. Makes you look great.
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Nice try but I was actually educated in the North East. The land of the liberals.
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No sorry, apply your socialist logic to someone else because it doesn't apply to me.
As a matter of fact the worst injury I ever suffered happened when I didn't have health coverage of any kind and I really couldn't afford the bills. I WAS offered government assistance and I DID turn it down. I practice what I preach whether you want to believe it or not. I DID pay the bills myself even though it was a struggle, and I have no regrets about it.
And honest to God I feel so strongly about this that I would rather lay in a ditch and die than to have a nanny state controlling my life. It's getting bad enough as it is, we sure as hell don't need to go any further down that road. Health care is only one aspect of this. I don't take government money for anything, in any way. But if this country is pushed far enough into socialism (and yes, what you guys are talking about is socialism. Putting other labels on it doesn't change what it is.) then I would make it my mission in life to rip off the government as much as I could just to do whatever damage I could to help bring the socialist system down. I'm not sure where the tipping point would be but I'm sure I'll know it if we get there.
One of the reasons for high health care costs in the US is that the poor, who lack health coverage, cannot get treatment for day to day illness, strep throat, flu, bronchitis, etc because they have no money and no health insurance. So, when they, or their child, get sick they cannot go to the local family doctor, they must go to the hospital emergency room. Not for profit hospitals receive a tax exemption from the government in exchange for providing medical care to the poor.
So, the not for profit hospital must maintain a larger emergency room/staff to deal with the day to day illness of the poor. This costs money, money that is subsidized through the government tax abatement.
The for profit health care hospitals are not allowed to turn away serious emergency cases. So, if a poor, uninsured person must go to emergency, the cost for treatment is not absorbed by the hospital, but passed on through higher costs to the paying public and insurance companies. So, for example, an inner city gunshot wound goes to the for profit emergency room, because the not for profit emergency room is at capacity treating flu cases.
National health care would allow the poor to go to a neighborhood family doctor for treatment of everyday disease, clear out the emergency rooms, and allow them to deal strictly with emergency cases. It reallocates the staffing and equipment needed from the more expensive setting, to a lower cost setting.
It brings down the health insurance costs, premiums, and distributes health care where it is most needed. A poor person is not going to "game" the system by constantly going to the doctor, they will go when they are sick. The "gaming" of the system comes from health care providers that wish to charge the government for services not performed. That is one form of Medicare/Medicaid fraud that the government investigates and prosecutes on a continual basis. That will not change whether we have the current, or a national, health care system.
No one should have to foot the bill for them. If their family or community doesn't want to help them then oh well they are screwed. Too many people are looking for a hand out and want the government to provide for them.
Exactly.
If someone wants to take the risk of not having private health insurance and not saving for an emergancy then that is his/her choice. THAT is freedom. But along with it should come the burden of responsibility for his/her choices.
If I don't have health coverage and I have no savings. And I get into an accident or develop a life threating illness. Nobody has to pay for me. Just let me FUCKING DIE. Seriously, I won't hold it against you. It was my choice.
I would rather have my freedom with the risk that my free choices might hurt me than to lose my freedom so I could feel safe and protected by the nanny state.
Olddaddy beat me too it.
I wouldn't piss on 99% of the human population to put them out if they were on fire.
I damn sure resent having to pay exorbitant taxes so some brood sow can stuff her fat ass full of bonbons on my dime.
But, the simple fact is, we're already paying for the Medicare/Medicaid people directly via taxes. We pay for the uninsured, or the under-insured indirectly via higher premiums, and higher charges at the Docs office, or the Hospital.
Hell, I'm no fan of the government, but I honestly think a properly run National Health System would be cheaper than the clusterfuck we have now.
As for the anecdotal evidence about the system in Canada, UK, etc, taking years to get anything done, have you ever tried getting anything non life threatening done here in the states? Try getting in to see a GP at the local med center without a referral from the ER.
Whether you like the stigma or not it is a Socialistic program.
The percentage of the US tax revenue (so not the private health care included) is STILL higher in the US than in other countries while YIELDING LESS RESULTS.
Your arguments claiming that people would have to spend more on taxes for health care than if they would pay a company don't make sense either. 15% of GDP is 15% of GDP and it's the people that pay those taxes (and the companies). Doesn't matter whether you pay it to a company or the government, right?
With the minor difference that a government can be held accountable for its actions (elections) while a bunch of companies can work together to rig the system (*cough* lobbies *cough*), while nobody can tell them not to. Their only goal is profit.
BTW, there are a few elements in universal health care that remind of socialism. Theer are other elements that remind of nationalism.
It's a concept that exists in itself and can be adopted by any country that wants to do the best for its people and wants to be the most cempetitive.
Your analysis addresses only tax revenue, it fails to address the tax revenue that is NOT collected by allowing tax abatements to not for profit hospitals in the US. There is actually less efficiency than you project.
But you DO take government money in any way every day of your life. Tax dollars paid to the government subsidize our interstate highway system, our air traffic control system, inspections of food and drugs, law enforcement and security, education, etc. Almost every facet of American life involves touching some good or service that has been subjected to a government service or subsidy.
Eat peanut butter, that is government subsidized. Eat corn, same. Drink Milk, same. Eat beef, same. Breathe the air, same. Drink the water, same. Drive a car, same. It is all subject to either a direct government subsidy or a subsidy in the form of inspection and/or regulation. It all comes out of tax dollars.
Go ahead and rip off the government, you will eventually receive a direct subsidy in the form of a jail cell and meals.
The evil of socialism is spreading and unfortunately it is going to hit here before I die. I am scared.
Why do we learn things in history? So that it doesn't repeat itself. Unfortunately, too many people skipped class that day.
I fear for my 2 year old daughter.
And yet socialistic views aren't very old....perhaps mankind is getting dumber each day.
Oh, well!!!!
Hi! I am government, please support me and give me $20 a month!!!
Hell, it seems to be working, I thought I would try it too!
Some interesting information on France's "Free" healthcare:
The bad news is that the French national health service is not free. You must pay for almost everything, even a routine visit to your local GP (20 euros per visit at the time of writing) or a stay in hospital. After you've paid, social services will refund a portion of the cost. The amount of refund varies from 0% up to 100% depending on the type of medical care received and the circumstances, but generally works out about 70%. Consequently, you end up around 30% out of pocket. The main exception for this is very low income families, which essentially receive medical care for free. Note that you only receive the 70% refund if you have social security cover in France.
If you do not require frequent or major medical care, this is not a problem. However, if for any reason you require substantial medical care (e.g. if you have an accident and need an operation), the non-refunded portion can be substantial. To avoid this you can take out medical health insurance. The cost of insurance varies depending on the policy you purchase, but a fairly standard policy can be had for about 50 euros a month.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)