It does sound a bit PRspeakish, but I want to give Funcom the benefit of the doubt. I will not be picking it up at release for sure. They have to earn back my trust after the release of AO if they want me to play their games, and they do seem to be hiding something. In this day and age of the MMO industry, if you are totting some new, revolutionary aspect of gameplay, you can't hold your cards close. The general populous will see it that you aren't being upfront about the system because it's either not done or broken. And after Vanguard, the MMO community at large will not tolerate that kind of thing.
I don't want to see AoC fail. I'd like to see it be successful. There is no reason why we can't have multiple MMOs be very popular. But without seeing these revolutionary systems in action at all, it's hard to really get behind a game and want to play it.
Ok.. no doubt, both will have over 75k subs. I agree with it. But to be honest, i expect a lot more subs for war. It is WoW 2, and will be the next big success, when i look at the hype all over the world. Do i think both will have over 350k after a year? War most problably.. AoC.. maybe. But however.. we will see. And the main point i have at the moment.. i really guess, that the production costs of both were most probably higher than for almost any other mmorpg before, so it could not enough to have just 200k. However, this is just my guess, and could be wrong.
Most of the "hype" is in Europe where majority of the beta signups are at, the TT game is very big over there so making WaR you instantly have a huge fanbase for it. WoW2 is just a really hollow statement most base it on the artwork. The interface shouldn't be a reason because most MMo's follow the same template of it. It's also a little crazy to believe that both games will need over 200k subscriptions to do well, that doesn't seem right, 200k subscription is high for an MMO these days, and I don't think either of these games cost the amount of money that Vanguard cost. I guess we'll wait and see what happens, both games will probably be around for a while in my eyes.
Not surprised at all... actually I called it dead on saying it would be 6 months away, not 3. I was pretty close. It's funny b/c all the nay sayers actually wanted to believe it was going to be released on time that they basically blinded themselves.
Funcom understands... in order for a MMORPG to be successful and to draw people from WoW and WAR, that the game has to be unbelievably polished so people get a good first impression on that game. Otherwise people will go back to their old game or to another one.
lol I will remember you that when war suffers a delay too
It's already been delayed to Q1 or 08, most people have known that for a while now. Maybe if you read up on different games instead of flaunting untrue statements you would have known.
It is a complete interface revision, read between the lines, that's what they are saying.
And it's a good thing! I argued for a huge ammount of time to make this game more "deep" in an RPG sense, now we're getting it. Costs 5 months, true, but it will be a deep system at least!
Well i'm not surprised but i'm happy about it. Too many mmorpgs gets released when they are not ready. I'm wondering why Funcom even bother with giving a precise launch date, they should have kept it like 3rd quarter of 2006. They were probably pretty sure to make it in October, so something really major must have been found to make them delay the release by over 6 months.
I could care less about the delay. It gives us more time to update our PCs for the game, and it gives funcom more time to make the ultimate wow killer. All i want to see is the game that i love and have followed for so long to over come and dominate all opponents. so to funcom; take your time, make the best game you can
lol I will remember you that when war suffers a delay too !!!!-----------------> <------------------ !!!!!!
It's already been delayed to Q1 or 08, most people have known that for a while now. Maybe if you read up on different games instead of flaunting untrue statements you would have known.
OH IM SORRY MY LORD!!!! KNOWER OF ALL THE GAME KNOWLEDGE. LORD OF THE FORUMS! SORRY ABOUT KIDDING! GAMES MUST BE TAKED SERIOUSLY!! FLAUNTING UNTRUE STATEMENTS IS THE WORST SIN PLEASE EXCUSEME LORD OF THE FORUMS! !!!
--- just trying to be a bit ironic.
In first place: I was just kidding, you can see the lol in the first part, and the smiley at the end. Do you call this "flaunting untrue statements"?
Second place: That it was delayed one time, dont means, it cant be delayed second time.
It is a smart decision to get it right for launch. Delays are a good thing in MMORPG game development based on monthly subscriptions where your life line comes from. I hope this game does very good in the US market. But I am with you all- I can't wait!
It kind of dissapoints me to see Funcom lie between their teeth telling us that the production is going well a couple weeks ago and then all of a sudden pushing the release date back. A 5 month pushback aint no joke these guys are getting ALOT of financial backing. We all know that if this game bombs then Funcom is in deep sh*t.
Overall it IS a good thing to hear about this.
1. Funcom can obviously tweak the game - or whatever that needs to get done (we all know its probably more than just tweaks). Leading in a better game.
2. PC technology can catch up a little bit to AoC (Im holding off in buying a new comp now until later next year)
3. Funcom does listen to the community which is a VERY important thing - and very smart.
Im generally happy to see this pushback, I never take release dates for what they are. We havent been seeing any really intense video yet so my guess is that Funcom needs not only the combat to work on but another aspects such as Siege PvP and another server management issues. Something bigger is lacking in the game and Im guessing it has to do wtth large scaled PvP (and maybe even speallweaving). Something major has been found recently in the beta stages and Funcom's gotta fix it.
www.newsweb.no/index.jsp 10.08.2007 07:49:36 Marked=OB Utsteder=Funcom N.V. Instrument=FUNCOM FUNCOM ANNOUNCES NEW RELEASE DATE FOR `AGE OF CONAN` andre børsmeldinger Funcom and Eidos today announce a new release date for the highly anticipated Massively Multiplayer Online Game `Age of Conan - Hyborian Adventures`.
After careful consideration, and analysis of recent feedback from Beta testing of `Age of Conan`, Funcom and Eidos have concluded that more development time is required to reduce the entry barrier to `Age of Conan` and make the game even more accessible during the first hours of playtime.
The new release date is set to the 25th of March 2008.
The Company Management regrets the delay in the launch date, but believes the extended development time will increase the financial upside of the game and is therefore the correct decision.
For further details, please contact the Funcom management.
Funcom, 10 August 2007 Olav Sandnes CFO Funcom N.V. Tel: +4792225540 Email: olav.sandnes@funcom.com
Honestly this makes me dislike the devs. They kept saying "AoC WILL be out Oct. 30th." "We are confident that AoC will be released on Oct. 30th."
"The combat system is revoluationary. It's amazing."
Now they're saying. Well the combat system isn't revolutionary and we need to make it easier and easier to get into. And we're not really that confident for an Oct. 30th release.
You guys have fun waiting for this game. I'm really surprised at all the people saying it's a "good thing" though.
When a first delay happened, sure it was a good thing, but when a second happens, it makes you wonder what they were doing this whole time.
Did no one internally realize that the combat system was flawed as is? Did they really have to have beta to see exactly what they had made?
To me this speaks of a lack of internal testing, and a lack of planning ahead.
I mean what have they been doing since they delayed it the first time? Working on the Camel and Tarantula animations?
Sorry, this just really pisses me off. The devs can sit there and claim this and claim that and everyone just soaks it up and believes it. Then when they delay the game to change everything the were claiming, everyone just soaks it up again.
Maybe in 2009 they'll have perfected the game. Screw Funcom and their wily, lets spew crap at everyone ways.
I won't be playing or following AoC anymore. Kudos to those of you that think Funcom "knows what they're doing."
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Its the right thing to do for all the right reasons. Only downside for Funcom is they might lose their early advantage if Mythic manages to stay on schedule for the same time period.
And I agree, not sure two games can successfully launch at the same time. Maybe..... as long as they are both clean at launch and fun to play I'm sure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Fion's link earlier was broken so here is the letter from the game director Gaute, posted on behalf by Pharamond.
Today is a definition of mixed feelings for me, and many in the Conan team. We hate being late. We hate not delivering on what we have promised. We hate letting you guys and girls down. We all want to hide somewhere dark and be ashamed of ourselves. And naturally, here is a good time to profoundly apologize to you, our loyal and patient community. We are sorry for another delay, we truly are, but hopefully this WILL turn into something better for all of us.
As you have seen over the last period, and as we have stated again and again, our clear intention was to launch in October. But what happens when you learn that the game you have needs more development time? Do you continue to force through towards a release, like we did with Anarchy Online? This time we did the right thing. I am proud by the fact that we work in a company that knows what the game truly needs, and are willing to follow and support the best interest of the game.
I am very happy to see that many of you, our community, actually support this decision. Naturally, there would be resentments and aggravations because of this. There is nothing wrong with that, but the logic is sound and I would like you to lend me your ear when I go through this.
“It's that first few hours. Either explain how it takes 5 months to fix the first few hours, or explain the full reason behind the delay. And don't take us for idiots.”
The combos are tied closely with feats. The combos are also tied closely with the five directions in the game. Today all classes get five directions, even when you are a nuker wizard that never even bothers getting in close combat. We wanted to make sure that the classes not wanting melee, actually wouldn’t have a superfluous system thrust on them (all five directions, combos etc). We wanted to make sure that the complexity of knowing which combos do I start when I press a direction to be clearer (this is complex even for me who love this system). We wanted to know that people got a larger component of instant gratification in combos. We wanted to remove the confusing elements of combo cooldowns that you cannot click on, but that looks like icons.
For many of you, who are not in the beta, this might not mean a lot. Let me break down what we are doing instead:
1. You don’t start with 5 directions, you start with 3. Non- melee classes don’t get the full five directions. We keep the depth and complexity in what we do, but we present it easier. The melee classes get the 5 directions.
2. We give people the opportunity to not only have 2,4,6 or 8 combos available, but as many as they want! To do this, they have to start the combo with a clickable, but the gui around this is much more uniform. You still have to do up-right, left etc to execute the combo though. (Today there are 8 slots for spells. 4 Slots for clickables, 8 slots (that you cannot click on) for combos. It will be now, hotkey bars where you put what you want where you want.)
3. We can now speed up combat, and enhance the action elements – positioning and directions because people aren’t struggling with knowing which combos they are starting.
4. We can add a certain dash of effect on the first key, on the second key and on any key in the combo, as we KNOW which combo is actually being executed. This will make it much, much more appealing to the players.
Why does this take 5 months? To make it we must go through every combo in the game, reassign keys, make icons etc. To make it does not take 5 months. We should be done around Christmas. We wanted the 5 months to make sure we could make another iteration if feedback was as still less than stellar. We wanted a solid buffer.
“It's 2 months before release that you "realize" that the combat system is a bit hard to understand in the beginning”
I know I am not perfect, by a long shot. This delay reveals my humanity in a quite demeaning way. You see, I personally love the combat. I love the combos, the fast-paced hack and slash, the dodging and weaving. I love it all. Also, the initial reactions by many have been very favorable. No, stunning actually!
But then, I have actually had 3 years to learn the combat. Not listening to experienced beta testers initial reactions is the most dangerous thing to do. I know I have lost face, and most likely a lot of credibility to a lot of people. I am still professional enough to realize that sometimes you must have the balls to pull your own pants off, standing there in all your glory, and admit your mistakes.
Luckily we do not change what I love! We change the way you learn it. I have explained why it takes time, and that is unfortunate. I am dead certain I shall be vindicated in this decision! Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth. It stings.
Come on! It is 5 months. It is not years.
“AoC is being dumbed down to appeal to the LotRO/WoW crowd so that FC can get more subs”
Conan is its own entity. We keep what is great, but we let people access it more easily. Are you saying the beta testers feedback comes because they are dumb? I hope not. The directions, the combos, the hands-on-action. It is all there.
The community often complains that we aren’t detailed enough in our statements. This is the reason. This exactly this, is why. We sometime need to adjust methods, input configurations, feedback systems and so on.
We are NOT changing the vision!It stays the same! Not dumber, not less deep or compless, but less convoluted. How can you accuse me, the many years Game Director of Anarchy Online of making dumbed-down games. You needed a Phd to get into that game, and even then it wasn’t a certainty ;p Funcoms “problem” has never been dumbed-down anything!
“March? The expected release of the 360 version?”
Xbox 360 will also be delayed because of this. How much, I cannot tell you.
“IMO it is better to make the game a star from start,”
Thank you for pointing this out! I cannot agree more. We only have one chance to become a success. People can have many reasons to want success; monetary- , being part of something they are proud of- , making a name for themselves-, loving what they have created and wanting it to live forever-, it does not matter!
Whatever reason, we all want the same thing. This to succeed!
“beta testers are not at fault for complaining”
No, on the contrary, we love to get concrete, detailed feedback from our beta testers. I would like to address this directly to you, if you are a tester. I would like to say – this is an homage to your integrity, your sincerity and to how much we value your input. You are but the messenger. I hope you appreciate to what degree we listen to your input!
We do not fault you, we honor you.
And with that I hope I have at least commented on some of the aspects I have seen on the forums and around the news today. Right now we are gearing up for the show in Leipzig, and the way it stands right now, if you get a chance to get there (bring a video camera so you can film the game from the showfloor, you too WILL be able to play the game.
Right here is where I lost complete respect for the Funcom Devs.
"Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth."
Making a stab at another game's development process and reasons for their delay, calling it bull**** and implying they were lying is unexcusable.
Especially when they have a game that's at least pleasing the people in Beta, and is at least playable by the general public.
Basically what that letter sums up to is "Our beta testers have been complaining about this for a long time, and we didn't listen until now."
I'll gladly take a dev team that "listens" to their fans and their beta testers over ones who listen at the last possible second.
A "combat system" is the heart of a game. It's the first thing you realize is messed up if it's messed up. Not the last.
If they're having to revamp the heart of the game, can't wait to see the next delay when they revamp the minor parts.
EDIT: And "lots and lots of minor tweaks and changes" is a revamp.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by checkthis500
Right here is where I lost complete respect for the Funcom Devs. "Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth." Making a stab at another game's development process and reasons for their delay, calling it bull**** and implying they were lying is unexcusable. Especially when they have a game that's at least pleasing the people in Beta, and is at least playable by the general public. Basically what that letter sums up to is "Our beta testers have been complaining about this for a long time, and we didn't listen until now." I'll gladly take a dev team that "listens" to their fans and their beta testers over ones who listen at the last possible second. A "combat system" is the heart of a game. It's the first thing you realize is messed up if it's messed up. Not the last. If they're having to revamp the heart of the game, can't wait to see the next delay when they revamp the minor parts. EDIT: And "lots and lots of minor tweaks and changes" is a revamp.
If a major skeptic like yourself must acknowledge the fact that a delay can only improve the game - regardless of the bitching and whinging to the contrary.
“It's 2 months before release that you "realize" that the combat system is a bit hard to understand in the beginning”
I know I am not perfect, by a long shot. This delay reveals my humanity in a quite demeaning way. You see, I personally love the combat. I love the combos, the fast-paced hack and slash, the dodging and weaving. I love it all. Also, the initial reactions by many have been very favorable. No, stunning actually!
But then, I have actually had 3 years to learn the combat. Not listening to experienced beta testers initial reactions is the most dangerous thing to do. I know I have lost face, and most likely a lot of credibility to a lot of people. I am still professional enough to realize that sometimes you must have the balls to pull your own pants off, standing there in all your glory, and admit your mistakes.
Luckily we do not change what I love! We change the way you learn it. I have explained why it takes time, and that is unfortunate. I am dead certain I shall be vindicated in this decision! Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth. It stings.
Pretty straight forward reading to me. Honest, Informative and Objective.
It's pleasing to people in Beta to those "experienced" and used to it. New testers are saying it's hard to get in to.
He is right - other developers often give Bull**** responses in circumstances like this but he is giving it out as it is. Thats respectable.
This is what i said before that letter was released in another post ... its obvious from the vids etc. that combats not too hot, and the game itself well looks kinda boring (combat) . Despit the fact that they have a newer combat system, that i would call evolutionary but at a high rate, and this is a great boon because most mmos are sticking with the same old skill/ability clicks; but still it does not mean it is automatically good. In this case they are trying something new... and when you do that you often have to take some time to work out the bugs.
I can tell them one thing that will help their game right away and its not to hard to do... (from a person who has watch many vids ... pick up on the flow of a game quickly). Put a speed or weight system on the weapons ... make lower level weapons lighter/faster, to speed up combat before you get the combos that will do it for you. By level 10th level you should have 3 combo chains, with at least 2 differt abilities attached to them. So people can use some skill in pve, like oen combot debuffs armor of target and another just does more damage thus people will do the oen maybe a few times. up down , up down , then left up , left up left up. Its not funn having to tactics to fighting other than the size of the mob (tho i like that also).
Anyway , i am happy they are doing this ... some people would like to jack AoC becuase they have games they want to do better... thast stuiped everyone should hope for these games to do well becuase there are more than enough mmo players sitting ... waiting in WoW looking for new mmos.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Heh well i guess WAR gets to go out first then. You know this kind of delay does suggest there were or are problems that have been found in beta and it would be interesting to see ehat that was then the NDA is lifted.
Unless of course Warhammer gets another delay itself, which is hardly outside of the realm of possibility.
And yes, the delay suggests that the game needs more work, what a surprise. It also suggests that the dev team are willing to take the time to deliver a complete product rather than rushing out a piece of crap. This is a particularly stupid argument on your part, since you were just complaining not long ago that the game didn't look finished.
I would be really surprised if WAR had another delay. They have started to ramp up the closed beta (2000+ NA this week, 4000+ EU this week). I think they are pretty on track but yes it is possible.
Both games will be fine.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Right here is where I lost complete respect for the Funcom Devs. "Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth." Making a stab at another game's development process and reasons for their delay, calling it bull**** and implying they were lying is unexcusable
They weren't calling WAR's delay bullshit. They called bullshit on the excuse 'we want to make the newbie dwarf zone better, so we are delaying the game almost an entire year.' That was bullshit. It just wasn't done. Mark Jacobs could have ponied up and said 'we don't think the game is were we want it at this time, in terms of content, zones, classes, everything, so we are delaying almost a year.' Instead he said one classes newbie zone wasn't up to snuff. That was a bullshit excuse. They were lying, through their teeth, and everyone knew it. The game simply wasn't done at the time.
You'll note in the same letter, he said they did the wrong thing by releasing Anarchy Online before it was done. At least he admitted to that, and are taking steps to do things right this time around.
it doesn't matter if he was right in saying that WAR's excuse was bullshit or not. Other dev teams have nothing to do with him and his game, when you have people ranting in your face about all the mistakes that have been made and why that's happened you don't say "Oh ya, well look at what other devs tell their players when there is a delay. Just be happy that at least I'm being honest."
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
Honestly this makes me dislike the devs. They kept saying "AoC WILL be out Oct. 30th." "We are confident that AoC will be released on Oct. 30th." "The combat system is revoluationary. It's amazing." Now they're saying. Well the combat system isn't revolutionary and we need to make it easier and easier to get into. And we're not really that confident for an Oct. 30th release. You guys have fun waiting for this game. I'm really surprised at all the people saying it's a "good thing" though. When a first delay happened, sure it was a good thing, but when a second happens, it makes you wonder what they were doing this whole time. Did no one internally realize that the combat system was flawed as is? Did they really have to have beta to see exactly what they had made? To me this speaks of a lack of internal testing, and a lack of planning ahead. I mean what have they been doing since they delayed it the first time? Working on the Camel and Tarantula animations? Sorry, this just really pisses me off. The devs can sit there and claim this and claim that and everyone just soaks it up and believes it. Then when they delay the game to change everything the were claiming, everyone just soaks it up again. Maybe in 2009 they'll have perfected the game. Screw Funcom and their wily, lets spew crap at everyone ways. I won't be playing or following AoC anymore. Kudos to those of you that think Funcom "knows what they're doing."
while I mostly agree with what your saying you should also note that while having a flawed/hard combat system may seem like an obviouse flaw for devs to find it isn't always the case. Now I've never worked on a game myself but I've heard often from developers that when you work with a game so closely for so long you get so close to the game that you can't actually tell if it's any good or not. You might think it's brilliant because it's everything you envisioned it to be but that doesn't mean the game isn't actually crap.
it's very reasonable that the devs couldn't see the combat system problems themselves because they had used the system so long that it felt perfect to them but it took the input from new beta testers to realize that it wasn't so perfect after all.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
Comments
It does sound a bit PRspeakish, but I want to give Funcom the benefit of the doubt. I will not be picking it up at release for sure. They have to earn back my trust after the release of AO if they want me to play their games, and they do seem to be hiding something. In this day and age of the MMO industry, if you are totting some new, revolutionary aspect of gameplay, you can't hold your cards close. The general populous will see it that you aren't being upfront about the system because it's either not done or broken. And after Vanguard, the MMO community at large will not tolerate that kind of thing.
I don't want to see AoC fail. I'd like to see it be successful. There is no reason why we can't have multiple MMOs be very popular. But without seeing these revolutionary systems in action at all, it's hard to really get behind a game and want to play it.
Most of the "hype" is in Europe where majority of the beta signups are at, the TT game is very big over there so making WaR you instantly have a huge fanbase for it. WoW2 is just a really hollow statement most base it on the artwork. The interface shouldn't be a reason because most MMo's follow the same template of it. It's also a little crazy to believe that both games will need over 200k subscriptions to do well, that doesn't seem right, 200k subscription is high for an MMO these days, and I don't think either of these games cost the amount of money that Vanguard cost. I guess we'll wait and see what happens, both games will probably be around for a while in my eyes.
Not surprised at all... actually I called it dead on saying it would be 6 months away, not 3. I was pretty close. It's funny b/c all the nay sayers actually wanted to believe it was going to be released on time that they basically blinded themselves.
Funcom understands... in order for a MMORPG to be successful and to draw people from WoW and WAR, that the game has to be unbelievably polished so people get a good first impression on that game. Otherwise people will go back to their old game or to another one.
Or they are simply THAT far behind on the game.
It's already been delayed to Q1 or 08, most people have known that for a while now. Maybe if you read up on different games instead of flaunting untrue statements you would have known.
Most importantly!
It is a complete interface revision, read between the lines, that's what they are saying.
And it's a good thing! I argued for a huge ammount of time to make this game more "deep" in an RPG sense, now we're getting it. Costs 5 months, true, but it will be a deep system at least!
Well i'm not surprised but i'm happy about it. Too many mmorpgs gets released when they are not ready. I'm wondering why Funcom even bother with giving a precise launch date, they should have kept it like 3rd quarter of 2006. They were probably pretty sure to make it in October, so something really major must have been found to make them delay the release by over 6 months.
It's already been delayed to Q1 or 08, most people have known that for a while now. Maybe if you read up on different games instead of flaunting untrue statements you would have known.
OH IM SORRY MY LORD!!!!
KNOWER OF ALL THE GAME KNOWLEDGE. LORD OF THE FORUMS! 
SORRY ABOUT KIDDING! 
GAMES MUST BE TAKED SERIOUSLY!! 
FLAUNTING UNTRUE STATEMENTS IS THE WORST SIN 
PLEASE EXCUSEME LORD OF THE FORUMS! 
!!!
--- just trying to be a bit ironic.
In first place: I was just kidding, you can see the lol in the first part, and the smiley at the end. Do you call this "flaunting untrue statements"?
Second place: That it was delayed one time, dont means, it cant be delayed second time.
It is a smart decision to get it right for launch. Delays are a good thing in MMORPG game development based on monthly subscriptions where your life line comes from. I hope this game does very good in the US market. But I am with you all- I can't wait!
Duke
Nukem
Forever ...
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Played almost everything...
Currently playing nothing...
Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
It kind of dissapoints me to see Funcom lie between their teeth telling us that the production is going well a couple weeks ago and then all of a sudden pushing the release date back. A 5 month pushback aint no joke these guys are getting ALOT of financial backing. We all know that if this game bombs then Funcom is in deep sh*t.
Overall it IS a good thing to hear about this.
1. Funcom can obviously tweak the game - or whatever that needs to get done (we all know its probably more than just tweaks). Leading in a better game.
2. PC technology can catch up a little bit to AoC (Im holding off in buying a new comp now until later next year)
3. Funcom does listen to the community which is a VERY important thing - and very smart.
Im generally happy to see this pushback, I never take release dates for what they are. We havent been seeing any really intense video yet so my guess is that Funcom needs not only the combat to work on but another aspects such as Siege PvP and another server management issues. Something bigger is lacking in the game and Im guessing it has to do wtth large scaled PvP (and maybe even speallweaving). Something major has been found recently in the beta stages and Funcom's gotta fix it.
NOT SURPRISED IN THE LEAST
thank god I am getting WAR beta so I got something to play for rest of the yr.
Honestly this makes me dislike the devs. They kept saying "AoC WILL be out Oct. 30th." "We are confident that AoC will be released on Oct. 30th."
"The combat system is revoluationary. It's amazing."
Now they're saying. Well the combat system isn't revolutionary and we need to make it easier and easier to get into. And we're not really that confident for an Oct. 30th release.
You guys have fun waiting for this game. I'm really surprised at all the people saying it's a "good thing" though.
When a first delay happened, sure it was a good thing, but when a second happens, it makes you wonder what they were doing this whole time.
Did no one internally realize that the combat system was flawed as is? Did they really have to have beta to see exactly what they had made?
To me this speaks of a lack of internal testing, and a lack of planning ahead.
I mean what have they been doing since they delayed it the first time? Working on the Camel and Tarantula animations?
Sorry, this just really pisses me off. The devs can sit there and claim this and claim that and everyone just soaks it up and believes it. Then when they delay the game to change everything the were claiming, everyone just soaks it up again.
Maybe in 2009 they'll have perfected the game. Screw Funcom and their wily, lets spew crap at everyone ways.
I won't be playing or following AoC anymore. Kudos to those of you that think Funcom "knows what they're doing."
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
Its the right thing to do for all the right reasons. Only downside for Funcom is they might lose their early advantage if Mythic manages to stay on schedule for the same time period.
And I agree, not sure two games can successfully launch at the same time. Maybe..... as long as they are both clean at launch and fun to play I'm sure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Fion's link earlier was broken so here is the letter from the game director Gaute, posted on behalf by Pharamond.
Today is a definition of mixed feelings for me, and many in the Conan team. We hate being late. We hate not delivering on what we have promised. We hate letting you guys and girls down. We all want to hide somewhere dark and be ashamed of ourselves. And naturally, here is a good time to profoundly apologize to you, our loyal and patient community. We are sorry for another delay, we truly are, but hopefully this WILL turn into something better for all of us.
As you have seen over the last period, and as we have stated again and again, our clear intention was to launch in October. But what happens when you learn that the game you have needs more development time? Do you continue to force through towards a release, like we did with Anarchy Online? This time we did the right thing. I am proud by the fact that we work in a company that knows what the game truly needs, and are willing to follow and support the best interest of the game.
I am very happy to see that many of you, our community, actually support this decision. Naturally, there would be resentments and aggravations because of this. There is nothing wrong with that, but the logic is sound and I would like you to lend me your ear when I go through this.
“It's that first few hours. Either explain how it takes 5 months to fix the first few hours, or explain the full reason behind the delay. And don't take us for idiots.”
The combos are tied closely with feats. The combos are also tied closely with the five directions in the game. Today all classes get five directions, even when you are a nuker wizard that never even bothers getting in close combat. We wanted to make sure that the classes not wanting melee, actually wouldn’t have a superfluous system thrust on them (all five directions, combos etc). We wanted to make sure that the complexity of knowing which combos do I start when I press a direction to be clearer (this is complex even for me who love this system). We wanted to know that people got a larger component of instant gratification in combos. We wanted to remove the confusing elements of combo cooldowns that you cannot click on, but that looks like icons.
For many of you, who are not in the beta, this might not mean a lot. Let me break down what we are doing instead:
1. You don’t start with 5 directions, you start with 3. Non- melee classes don’t get the full five directions. We keep the depth and complexity in what we do, but we present it easier. The melee classes get the 5 directions.
2. We give people the opportunity to not only have 2,4,6 or 8 combos available, but as many as they want! To do this, they have to start the combo with a clickable, but the gui around this is much more uniform. You still have to do up-right, left etc to execute the combo though. (Today there are 8 slots for spells. 4 Slots for clickables, 8 slots (that you cannot click on) for combos. It will be now, hotkey bars where you put what you want where you want.)
3. We can now speed up combat, and enhance the action elements – positioning and directions because people aren’t struggling with knowing which combos they are starting.
4. We can add a certain dash of effect on the first key, on the second key and on any key in the combo, as we KNOW which combo is actually being executed. This will make it much, much more appealing to the players.
Why does this take 5 months? To make it we must go through every combo in the game, reassign keys, make icons etc. To make it does not take 5 months. We should be done around Christmas. We wanted the 5 months to make sure we could make another iteration if feedback was as still less than stellar. We wanted a solid buffer.
“It's 2 months before release that you "realize" that the combat system is a bit hard to understand in the beginning”
I know I am not perfect, by a long shot. This delay reveals my humanity in a quite demeaning way. You see, I personally love the combat. I love the combos, the fast-paced hack and slash, the dodging and weaving. I love it all. Also, the initial reactions by many have been very favorable. No, stunning actually!
But then, I have actually had 3 years to learn the combat. Not listening to experienced beta testers initial reactions is the most dangerous thing to do. I know I have lost face, and most likely a lot of credibility to a lot of people. I am still professional enough to realize that sometimes you must have the balls to pull your own pants off, standing there in all your glory, and admit your mistakes.
Luckily we do not change what I love! We change the way you learn it. I have explained why it takes time, and that is unfortunate. I am dead certain I shall be vindicated in this decision! Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth. It stings.
Come on! It is 5 months. It is not years.
“AoC is being dumbed down to appeal to the LotRO/WoW crowd so that FC can get more subs”
Conan is its own entity. We keep what is great, but we let people access it more easily. Are you saying the beta testers feedback comes because they are dumb? I hope not. The directions, the combos, the hands-on-action. It is all there.
The community often complains that we aren’t detailed enough in our statements. This is the reason. This exactly this, is why. We sometime need to adjust methods, input configurations, feedback systems and so on.
We are NOT changing the vision! It stays the same! Not dumber, not less deep or compless, but less convoluted. How can you accuse me, the many years Game Director of Anarchy Online of making dumbed-down games. You needed a Phd to get into that game, and even then it wasn’t a certainty ;p Funcoms “problem” has never been dumbed-down anything!
“March? The expected release of the 360 version?”
Xbox 360 will also be delayed because of this. How much, I cannot tell you.
“IMO it is better to make the game a star from start,”
Thank you for pointing this out! I cannot agree more. We only have one chance to become a success. People can have many reasons to want success; monetary- , being part of something they are proud of- , making a name for themselves-, loving what they have created and wanting it to live forever-, it does not matter!
Whatever reason, we all want the same thing. This to succeed!
“beta testers are not at fault for complaining”
No, on the contrary, we love to get concrete, detailed feedback from our beta testers. I would like to address this directly to you, if you are a tester. I would like to say – this is an homage to your integrity, your sincerity and to how much we value your input. You are but the messenger. I hope you appreciate to what degree we listen to your input!
We do not fault you, we honor you.
And with that I hope I have at least commented on some of the aspects I have seen on the forums and around the news today. Right now we are gearing up for the show in Leipzig, and the way it stands right now, if you get a chance to get there (bring a video camera so you can film the game from the showfloor
You will love it!
- gaute
Community Manager – Funcom
Right here is where I lost complete respect for the Funcom Devs.
"Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth."
Making a stab at another game's development process and reasons for their delay, calling it bull**** and implying they were lying is unexcusable.
Especially when they have a game that's at least pleasing the people in Beta, and is at least playable by the general public.
Basically what that letter sums up to is "Our beta testers have been complaining about this for a long time, and we didn't listen until now."
I'll gladly take a dev team that "listens" to their fans and their beta testers over ones who listen at the last possible second.
A "combat system" is the heart of a game. It's the first thing you realize is messed up if it's messed up. Not the last.
If they're having to revamp the heart of the game, can't wait to see the next delay when they revamp the minor parts.
EDIT: And "lots and lots of minor tweaks and changes" is a revamp.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
If a major skeptic like yourself must acknowledge the fact that a delay can only improve the game - regardless of the bitching and whinging to the contrary.
“It's 2 months before release that you "realize" that the combat system is a bit hard to understand in the beginning”
I know I am not perfect, by a long shot. This delay reveals my humanity in a quite demeaning way. You see, I personally love the combat. I love the combos, the fast-paced hack and slash, the dodging and weaving. I love it all. Also, the initial reactions by many have been very favorable. No, stunning actually!
But then, I have actually had 3 years to learn the combat. Not listening to experienced beta testers initial reactions is the most dangerous thing to do. I know I have lost face, and most likely a lot of credibility to a lot of people. I am still professional enough to realize that sometimes you must have the balls to pull your own pants off, standing there in all your glory, and admit your mistakes.
Luckily we do not change what I love! We change the way you learn it. I have explained why it takes time, and that is unfortunate. I am dead certain I shall be vindicated in this decision! Hey, we could have given you some bull**** reason about needing more time to polish a startup area or whatnot. This is the truth. It stings.
Pretty straight forward reading to me. Honest, Informative and Objective.
It's pleasing to people in Beta to those "experienced" and used to it. New testers are saying it's hard to get in to.
He is right - other developers often give Bull**** responses in circumstances like this but he is giving it out as it is. Thats respectable.
This is what i said before that letter was released in another post ... its obvious from the vids etc. that combats not too hot, and the game itself well looks kinda boring (combat) . Despit the fact that they have a newer combat system, that i would call evolutionary but at a high rate, and this is a great boon because most mmos are sticking with the same old skill/ability clicks; but still it does not mean it is automatically good. In this case they are trying something new... and when you do that you often have to take some time to work out the bugs.
I can tell them one thing that will help their game right away and its not to hard to do... (from a person who has watch many vids ... pick up on the flow of a game quickly). Put a speed or weight system on the weapons ... make lower level weapons lighter/faster, to speed up combat before you get the combos that will do it for you. By level 10th level you should have 3 combo chains, with at least 2 differt abilities attached to them. So people can use some skill in pve, like oen combot debuffs armor of target and another just does more damage thus people will do the oen maybe a few times. up down , up down , then left up , left up left up. Its not funn having to tactics to fighting other than the size of the mob (tho i like that also).
Anyway , i am happy they are doing this ... some people would like to jack AoC becuase they have games they want to do better... thast stuiped everyone should hope for these games to do well becuase there are more than enough mmo players sitting ... waiting in WoW looking for new mmos.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
And yes, the delay suggests that the game needs more work, what a surprise. It also suggests that the dev team are willing to take the time to deliver a complete product rather than rushing out a piece of crap. This is a particularly stupid argument on your part, since you were just complaining not long ago that the game didn't look finished.
I would be really surprised if WAR had another delay. They have started to ramp up the closed beta (2000+ NA this week, 4000+ EU this week). I think they are pretty on track but yes it is possible.Both games will be fine.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
They weren't calling WAR's delay bullshit. They called bullshit on the excuse 'we want to make the newbie dwarf zone better, so we are delaying the game almost an entire year.' That was bullshit. It just wasn't done. Mark Jacobs could have ponied up and said 'we don't think the game is were we want it at this time, in terms of content, zones, classes, everything, so we are delaying almost a year.' Instead he said one classes newbie zone wasn't up to snuff. That was a bullshit excuse. They were lying, through their teeth, and everyone knew it. The game simply wasn't done at the time.
You'll note in the same letter, he said they did the wrong thing by releasing Anarchy Online before it was done. At least he admitted to that, and are taking steps to do things right this time around.
it doesn't matter if he was right in saying that WAR's excuse was bullshit or not. Other dev teams have nothing to do with him and his game, when you have people ranting in your face about all the mistakes that have been made and why that's happened you don't say "Oh ya, well look at what other devs tell their players when there is a delay. Just be happy that at least I'm being honest."
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
while I mostly agree with what your saying you should also note that while having a flawed/hard combat system may seem like an obviouse flaw for devs to find it isn't always the case. Now I've never worked on a game myself but I've heard often from developers that when you work with a game so closely for so long you get so close to the game that you can't actually tell if it's any good or not. You might think it's brilliant because it's everything you envisioned it to be but that doesn't mean the game isn't actually crap.
it's very reasonable that the devs couldn't see the combat system problems themselves because they had used the system so long that it felt perfect to them but it took the input from new beta testers to realize that it wasn't so perfect after all.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more