GL Why did you glaze over my facts? About how EQ1 actually had an equal if not higher % of the market place then WoW does? That doesn't really support your WoW is better arguement.
IT is comparable to Movie sales adjusted for Inflation. That gives a whole different look at what the best selling movies of all time are.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!
It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.
Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
GL Why did you glaze over my facts? About how EQ1 actually had an equal if not higher % of the market place then WoW does? That doesn't really support your WoW is better arguement.
IT is comparable to Movie sales adjusted for Inflation. That gives a whole different look at what the best selling movies of all time are.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!
It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.
Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.
Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
GL Why did you glaze over my facts? About how EQ1 actually had an equal if not higher % of the market place then WoW does? That doesn't really support your WoW is better arguement.
IT is comparable to Movie sales adjusted for Inflation. That gives a whole different look at what the best selling movies of all time are.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!
It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.
Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.
Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.
I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
GL Why did you glaze over my facts? About how EQ1 actually had an equal if not higher % of the market place then WoW does? That doesn't really support your WoW is better arguement.
IT is comparable to Movie sales adjusted for Inflation. That gives a whole different look at what the best selling movies of all time are.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!
It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.
Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.
Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.
I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
You are grasping at straws there with the last comment about market share. How do the large number of free Asian games today affect the market in 1999?
Secondly while World of Warcraft has been used in the Mainstream more that is not living proof. EverCrack was a household name as well, it just had a lot of negative press. It was mentioned a ton in pop culture though.
Yes the vast majority of WoW's subscribers have played games before and guess what the Gaming market is much larger now then it was in 1999. That is just the way the world works. Raw data can not be used to compare Apples and Oranges, which in this case EQ1 and WoW are apples and oranges. You have to make valid comparisons which include adjusting for market size.
Edit *** Btw be honest GL are you a paid employee of Blizzard?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
GL Why did you glaze over my facts? About how EQ1 actually had an equal if not higher % of the market place then WoW does? That doesn't really support your WoW is better arguement.
IT is comparable to Movie sales adjusted for Inflation. That gives a whole different look at what the best selling movies of all time are.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!
It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.
Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.
Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.
I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
You are grasping at straws there with the last comment about market share. How do the large number of free Asian games today affect the market in 1999?
You think there weren't any free to play games beck in Everquest's days? perhaps not as many as there are today, but they were there. and aside from that, it only makes the number more impressive.
Secondly while World of Warcraft has been used in the Mainstream more that is not living proof. EverCrack was a household name as well, it just had a lot of negative press. It was mentioned a ton in pop culture though.
Everquest was mentioned in pop culture, but by far not as much as WoW was.
Yes the vast majority of WoW's subscribers have played games before and guess what the Gaming market is much larger now then it was in 1999. That is just the way the world works. Raw data can not be used to compare Apples and Oranges, which in this case EQ1 and WoW are apples and oranges. You have to make valid comparisons which include adjusting for market size.
Ofcourse the gaming market is larger now, but not as much larger as you're implying.
Lets compare:
Everquest reached its peak in july 2004 according to mmogchart around 500k subscribers. We're now in 2007, and WoW is still not at its peak,but lets use the 9 million numbers. Are you honnestly trying to say that in those years the gaming market is now 18 times as big as it was back in 2004!? come on..lets stay realistic.
Edit *** Btw be honest GL are you a paid employee of Blizzard?
The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game?
And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller.
When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Wrong. Everquest is the Beatles, WoW is the Monkees. And Ultima Online is Venom!! MUAHAHAHA
Everquest would have to be
1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
1) EQI's variety of group encounters and content quality is still superior to WOW.
2) EQI's raid encounters are still more challenging than WOW's
3) EQI's knowledge of class prerequesite is still superior to WOW.
4) WOW still continues to borrow from EQI not vice versa.
5) EQI's character developement is still superior to WOW.
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Wrong. Everquest is the Beatles, WoW is the Monkees. And Ultima Online is Venom!! MUAHAHAHA
Everquest would have to be
1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
1) EQI's variety of group encounters and content quality is still superior to WOW.
2) EQI's raid encounters are still more challenging than WOW's
3) EQI's knowledge of class prerequesite is still superior to WOW.
4) WOW still continues to borrow from EQI not vice versa.
5) EQI's character developement is still superior to WOW.
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
Oh that's right you don't...
oh I love posts like these.
"You don't agree with me, hence you must have not played the game".
"I have knowledge of game design, AI and how games are actually made of which you know nothing about because you don't think game A is better than Game B"
"You're not a fan of the genre, only to a certain title because you do not think Everquest is the best thing since sliced bread"
Let me assure I have played more MMO's then you even care to count, especialy if the MMO's in your sigs are the only few MMO's you have played
I suggest you get off your high and mighty elitist horse, if you wish for me to take you seriously.
actually elvis changed music forever, to quote john lennon: "before elvis there was nothing"
If he said that then he just went from ok in my eyes to being a moron.
but who cares about how the world is perceived in your eyes..the mans a legend and your calling him a moron..sure buddy..john lennon was a huge elvis fan..elvis wasn't the blues he started rock and roll...it was originally called hillbilly rock and then eventually came to be know as rock and roll.
haha you care, apparently, since you couldn't believe someone is calling your stupid idol a moron. Stop idealizing such people and appreciate yourself, mate. A good deal of ignorance is needed to say something like that. I mean did he even study popular music? Got nothing against the Beatles, only against the idiocy such phrases imply, and that one tells me that at some point he was a moron.
As for the guy who said that rock and roll is a joke in the eyes of the classically trained, I suppose that's why a composer such as John Adams is who he is today because he exclusively listened to Schoenberg... right? Breaking news, he was listening to rock and jazz music when he first started composing, and who knows who else has a similar background in the classical world, forever riddled with arrogance for the gusto of the populace. Oh but it's all moot in this place, heh.
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising ) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising ) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
As for the argument that what others assume to be better and what not as subjective, that's not entirely true. In fact, any game that has a significant degree of repetition is boring. WoW suffers from that like all the other MMOs today do, so I wouldn't say that makes WoW bad, rather I would say that what makes WoW bad is the fact people assume it must be good because a large population of players like it.
Consider it like the situation on Earth today with religion. 95% of the world thinks there must be a God. 95% of the world thinks there's an afterlife. And 95% of the world thinks that this assumed God will judge you by whatever doctrinal meter in that assumed afterlife. Noticed that the term assumed applies to both? I applied it due to th fact that the foundation of religion's success is assumption, not reasoned analysis (Objectivist Epistemology) or empiricism (Scientific Naturalism). The same problem is what WoW and other MMOs profit from; the assumptions people make about them for better or worse.
So, I won't say WoW is worse than any other MMO, but I will say it's like every other MMO, and the Blizzard development team that made and maintain WoW never stated anything in contrary to that fact (considering they prided themselves on streamlining existing features of other MMOs before them in interviews if memory serves). So, play WoW if you like it, but don't play it because others say it's good. Don't play EVE because someone else likes it, play it because you like it. And so on for every other game, sport, hobby, and, especially, MMO.
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising ) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
ok , i might get my 3rd ban , but i need to let this out i dont see how someone could make 9000 posts with always the same kind of arguments even in completely diferent games my guess is : he is more then one person , a group of people that share a acount he is one of the mmorpg admins uses this acount to put is words out whats is the purpuse ? keep the comunity alive and kicking good job man(s) !
oh damn..you got us now Neoteo. the secret is out. there are many people on this forum, including me, that are hired by mmorpg.com to keep the forum alive. In fact, Cabe and me have been pretending to have a discussing here, but we are actually the same person posting on different accounts.
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising ) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
No, mobs around warping around during combat is an annoying bug, but not gamebreaking, especialy considering it really didn't happen that much. The only real bugs I consider gamebreaking are things like bosses not re-spawning, quest items not dropping, skills that never work, of which to my knowledge aren't a lot of in WoW, not in the EU release at least. In fact, the only memorable bad thing about WoW's EU release was the fact the account creation website was down all day. I received my copy at 10 am, and I could start playing the game at 11 pm. City of Heroes was more polished, but with that said...the game was go to an npc, get quest, go inside an instance, kill everything inside, get out, repeat....seriously, how much can go wrong? Now I don't know about Daoc's US release but the EU release was a nightmare. Mobs missing, skills not working, tons of client crashes.
Also, I never denied that a big amount of players, maybe even the majority, has never played an mmorpg before (there is no way to check this), but my arguement is against the people who make claims like "90% of WoW's population never played an MMO before" or "WoW players never play other MMO's".
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising ) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
No, mobs around warping around during combat is an annoying bug, but not gamebreaking, especialy considering it really didn't happen that much. The only real bugs I consider gamebreaking are things like bosses not re-spawning, quest items not dropping, skills that never work, of which to my knowledge aren't a lot of in WoW, not in the EU release at least. In fact, the only memorable bad thing about WoW's EU release was the fact the account creation website was down all day. I received my copy at 10 am, and I could start playing the game at 11 pm. City of Heroes was more polished, but with that said...the game was go to an npc, get quest, go inside an instance, kill everything inside, get out, repeat....seriously, how much can go wrong? Now I don't know about Daoc's US release but the EU release was a nightmare. Mobs missing, skills not working, tons of client crashes.
Also, I never denied that a big amount of players, maybe even the majority, has never played an mmorpg before (there is no way to check this), but my arguement is against the people who make claims like "90% of WoW's population never played an MMO before" or "WoW players never play other MMO's".
Ahh I take back what I said about you GL. I keep forgetting you are one of those pesky EU people.
Of course you weren't hounded by the Bugs that the NA release had, the game had 3 months to polish up before it released in EU. In fact I think some of the issues were patched in before the game even came out there in EU, but don't quote me on that part. Things like the Paladin bug that allowed a paladin to solo huge raid mobs. Also wasn't maraudan and dire maul added before it released there?
Also DAoC's NA release was a lot better then the EU release. About the only game breaking bug in the NA release was the fact that they hadn't itemized Hibernia's level 30+ content yet. Our mobs only dropped coins and no better weapons or armor. Which put us at quite a disadvantage compared to Albion and Midgard. I honestly think that is way Mythic seems to favor Hibernia now, they are still trying to make up for that fact.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Wrong. Everquest is the Beatles, WoW is the Monkees. And Ultima Online is Venom!! MUAHAHAHA
Everquest would have to be
1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
1) EQI's variety of group encounters and content quality is still superior to WOW.
2) EQI's raid encounters are still more challenging than WOW's
3) EQI's knowledge of class prerequesite is still superior to WOW.
4) WOW still continues to borrow from EQI not vice versa.
5) EQI's character developement is still superior to WOW.
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
Oh that's right you don't...
So your a fan of the genre, cool, but your also a developer right? Because with all that in depth knowledge to how they're made and design you must be a dev.
well i'll entertain this very "I'm better than you because i said so" with one of my own.
"k, you obviously know nothing because I pretty much play mmos day and night so there's no way you know more than me, actually I ounce watched a behind scenes video so I'm also pretty in the know with how they're made. I know way more than you.
See unlike you I don't pretend to know mmos because I actually do and seeing as how I my opinions are way better than yours you should just give up now."
Well wasn't that fun and look how much I accomplished, absolutely nothing. Like GL said earlier, saying you know more than someone else and telling him that you have more extensive knowledge about these games is a stupid statement because there's no way you can back that up so just try to stick to facts.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
As for the argument that what others assume to be better and what not as subjective, that's not entirely true. In fact, any game that has a significant degree of repetition is boring. WoW suffers from that like all the other MMOs today do, so I wouldn't say that makes WoW bad, rather I would say that what makes WoW bad is the fact people assume it must be good because a large population of players like it. Consider it like the situation on Earth today with religion. 95% of the world thinks there must be a God. 95% of the world thinks there's an afterlife. And 95% of the world thinks that this assumed God will judge you by whatever doctrinal meter in that assumed afterlife. Noticed that the term assumed applies to both? I applied it due to th fact that the foundation of religion's success is assumption, not reasoned analysis (Objectivist Epistemology) or empiricism (Scientific Naturalism). The same problem is what WoW and other MMOs profit from; the assumptions people make about them for better or worse. So, I won't say WoW is worse than any other MMO, but I will say it's like every other MMO, and the Blizzard development team that made and maintain WoW never stated anything in contrary to that fact (considering they prided themselves on streamlining existing features of other MMOs before them in interviews if memory serves). So, play WoW if you like it, but don't play it because others say it's good. Don't play EVE because someone else likes it, play it because you like it. And so on for every other game, sport, hobby, and, especially, MMO. -- Brede
Well ok, if you want to settle down and play every game ever made so you can decide first hand what's good or not that's great. Yes, sometimes I will go against what people have told me about a game and play it anyways because it's something I want to play but more often than not I end up wasting time on a crappy game. They say the best advertisement is word of mouth because everyone knows that just because you like the box doesn't mean you'll like the game.
Fact is you shouldn't continue to play a mmo you don't like just because your friends like it but you should play games you've actually heard are good rather than going for the ones people say are bad just because you don't want to flow with the crowd.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
What is it with WoW and you GL? The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game? And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller. When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
I've seen the same thing, it seems like there's a real trend going on now where players target WoW as a bad game because they don't like how popular it is. I'll agree I don't think WoW is all that original but it is accessible and it seems like players like to target WoW with threads like "WoW is Dead" and such just because they don't like the game and they hate that everyone else does. This game has changed the genre, yes a lot of it's player base have never played an mmo before but why is that a bad thing? If you ask me this genre could do with more players, isn't that what mmos are about, playing with a lot of different players?
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
Comments
How dare you claim that WAR is Led Zepplin?!
If anything LOTRO has domain over the LED, "in the darkest depst of Mordor, I met a girl so fair...." ring a bell?
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
You are grasping at straws there with the last comment about market share. How do the large number of free Asian games today affect the market in 1999?
Secondly while World of Warcraft has been used in the Mainstream more that is not living proof. EverCrack was a household name as well, it just had a lot of negative press. It was mentioned a ton in pop culture though.
Yes the vast majority of WoW's subscribers have played games before and guess what the Gaming market is much larger now then it was in 1999. That is just the way the world works. Raw data can not be used to compare Apples and Oranges, which in this case EQ1 and WoW are apples and oranges. You have to make valid comparisons which include adjusting for market size.
Edit *** Btw be honest GL are you a paid employee of Blizzard?
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Because you made up the numbers, they are not based on factual numbers on any way or form.and aside from that..what in heavens name does the amount of internet users that tried WoW has to do with anything...?
I did not make up the Numbers!It matters because marketshare is a much better indicator then just raw numbers.
For instance what if there was only 1 million total potential MMO customers in the Whole world when EQ1 was launched and they got around 500K of them. Well that would be a huge accomplishment compared to What World Of Warcraft has done.
The numbers support that they both have at least been equally successful in their respective marketplaces.
Just because a person has an internet connection does not mean they are a potential customer.Here, lets look at it this way.
1: World of Warcraft currently holds over 50% of the mmorpg subscriber base in the MMO market
2: Everquest did not hold over 50% of the MMORPG subscriber base in the MMO market at its peak. in fact, it wasn't even the biggest MMORPG.
WoW's MMORPG market share is much larget then Everquest's
Of course they are all potential customers. Where did WoW get its 9 million customers from? They sure didn't get them from people who had all played MMO games before. So every single person with internet access was a potential customer. And in that fact World of Warcraft has done just as well as Everquest 1.Secondly you can not discount the impact that Everquest 1 had on the MMO genre. World of Warcraft itself is a result of Everquest 1. So I am sorry but the refined version can not have a bigger impact on the Market then what it used as it's guide. Whether you agree or not World of Warcraft Devs have relied on their experiences playing Everquest 1 while designing WoW.
World of warcraft holds 50% of the subscriber player base, but the MMO market is much larger now then just subscribers. WoW does not hold 50% of the total marketplace considering some of the Asian free games claim larger populations.
No, but I'm sure the vast majority of them have played games before.I never discounted that Everquest had didn't had an impact on the genre, but to say that the "refined version" can not have a bigger impact on the market is just plain wrong, there is no "law" that says it can't happen, and World of Warcraft is the living proof. WoW has become a pop culture, its even used in commercials and comedy shows like Southpark. It has become a culture icon, which can't be said about Everquest. WoW brought MMO's to the mainstream.
The fact that there are now asian free games is totally irrelevant to the subject and does not decreases WoW's market share in any way or form. and if it does, so does EQ's market share.
You are grasping at straws there with the last comment about market share. How do the large number of free Asian games today affect the market in 1999?
You think there weren't any free to play games beck in Everquest's days? perhaps not as many as there are today, but they were there. and aside from that, it only makes the number more impressive.
Secondly while World of Warcraft has been used in the Mainstream more that is not living proof. EverCrack was a household name as well, it just had a lot of negative press. It was mentioned a ton in pop culture though.
Everquest was mentioned in pop culture, but by far not as much as WoW was.
Yes the vast majority of WoW's subscribers have played games before and guess what the Gaming market is much larger now then it was in 1999. That is just the way the world works. Raw data can not be used to compare Apples and Oranges, which in this case EQ1 and WoW are apples and oranges. You have to make valid comparisons which include adjusting for market size.
Ofcourse the gaming market is larger now, but not as much larger as you're implying.
Lets compare:
Everquest reached its peak in july 2004 according to mmogchart around 500k subscribers. We're now in 2007, and WoW is still not at its peak,but lets use the 9 million numbers. Are you honnestly trying to say that in those years the gaming market is now 18 times as big as it was back in 2004!? come on..lets stay realistic.
Edit *** Btw be honest GL are you a paid employee of Blizzard?
Yes, I get paid 600$ a month to post on forums...
What is it with WoW and you GL?
The game is a decent game, but you make it out to be some life altering event that has happened. I don't understand what you infatuation with the defense of the game is? Did Blizzard donate you a kidney or something. You have such faith and loyalty to a game?
And to answer your question yes the Game market was smaller when EQ1 launched and was still smaller in 2004 then it is today. A lot smaller.
When UO, EQ, and AC1 launched the Asian market wasn't even targetted. They were strictly NA games. You can't fault them for not tapping into the Asian Market when they really never even tried. Even DAoC only had a Japanese server. Mythic never tried to tap into Korea or China's markets. IT wasn't until World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 that we saw significant attempts to penetrate the Asian Market.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
Oh that's right you don't...
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Everquest would have to be1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
Oh that's right you don't...
oh I love posts like these.
"You don't agree with me, hence you must have not played the game".
"I have knowledge of game design, AI and how games are actually made of which you know nothing about because you don't think game A is better than Game B"
"You're not a fan of the genre, only to a certain title because you do not think Everquest is the best thing since sliced bread"
Let me assure I have played more MMO's then you even care to count, especialy if the MMO's in your sigs are the only few MMO's you have played
I suggest you get off your high and mighty elitist horse, if you wish for me to take you seriously.
If he said that then he just went from ok in my eyes to being a moron.
but who cares about how the world is perceived in your eyes..the mans a legend and your calling him a moron..sure buddy..john lennon was a huge elvis fan..elvis wasn't the blues he started rock and roll...it was originally called hillbilly rock and then eventually came to be know as rock and roll.
haha you care, apparently, since you couldn't believe someone is calling your stupid idol a moron. Stop idealizing such people and appreciate yourself, mate. A good deal of ignorance is needed to say something like that. I mean did he even study popular music? Got nothing against the Beatles, only against the idiocy such phrases imply, and that one tells me that at some point he was a moron.
As for the guy who said that rock and roll is a joke in the eyes of the classically trained, I suppose that's why a composer such as John Adams is who he is today because he exclusively listened to Schoenberg... right? Breaking news, he was listening to rock and jazz music when he first started composing, and who knows who else has a similar background in the classical world, forever riddled with arrogance for the gusto of the populace. Oh but it's all moot in this place, heh.
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising
) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising
) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
qft.
-- Brede
As for the argument that what others assume to be better and what not as subjective, that's not entirely true. In fact, any game that has a significant degree of repetition is boring. WoW suffers from that like all the other MMOs today do, so I wouldn't say that makes WoW bad, rather I would say that what makes WoW bad is the fact people assume it must be good because a large population of players like it.
Consider it like the situation on Earth today with religion. 95% of the world thinks there must be a God. 95% of the world thinks there's an afterlife. And 95% of the world thinks that this assumed God will judge you by whatever doctrinal meter in that assumed afterlife. Noticed that the term assumed applies to both? I applied it due to th fact that the foundation of religion's success is assumption, not reasoned analysis (Objectivist Epistemology) or empiricism (Scientific Naturalism). The same problem is what WoW and other MMOs profit from; the assumptions people make about them for better or worse.
So, I won't say WoW is worse than any other MMO, but I will say it's like every other MMO, and the Blizzard development team that made and maintain WoW never stated anything in contrary to that fact (considering they prided themselves on streamlining existing features of other MMOs before them in interviews if memory serves). So, play WoW if you like it, but don't play it because others say it's good. Don't play EVE because someone else likes it, play it because you like it. And so on for every other game, sport, hobby, and, especially, MMO.
-- Brede
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising
) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
ok , i might get my 3rd ban , but i need to let this out
i dont see how someone could make 9000 posts with always the same kind of arguments even in completely diferent games
my guess is :
he is more then one person , a group of people that share a acount
he is one of the mmorpg admins uses this acount to put is words out
whats is the purpuse ?
keep the comunity alive and kicking
good job man(s) !
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
oh damn..you got us now Neoteo. the secret is out. there are many people on this forum, including me, that are hired by mmorpg.com to keep the forum alive. In fact, Cabe and me have been pretending to have a discussing here, but we are actually the same person posting on different accounts.
There is nothing with WoW and Me, I don't hold WoW any higher then other MMO's. However it seems on these boards its a "cool thing" to bash WoW or to make it look less then it actually is. WoW has changed MMO's forever. It set a new standard of quality, and I think many people do not give it enough credit.The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising
) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
No, mobs around warping around during combat is an annoying bug, but not gamebreaking, especialy considering it really didn't happen that much. The only real bugs I consider gamebreaking are things like bosses not re-spawning, quest items not dropping, skills that never work, of which to my knowledge aren't a lot of in WoW, not in the EU release at least. In fact, the only memorable bad thing about WoW's EU release was the fact the account creation website was down all day. I received my copy at 10 am, and I could start playing the game at 11 pm. City of Heroes was more polished, but with that said...the game was go to an npc, get quest, go inside an instance, kill everything inside, get out, repeat....seriously, how much can go wrong? Now I don't know about Daoc's US release but the EU release was a nightmare. Mobs missing, skills not working, tons of client crashes.
Also, I never denied that a big amount of players, maybe even the majority, has never played an mmorpg before (there is no way to check this), but my arguement is against the people who make claims like "90% of WoW's population never played an MMO before" or "WoW players never play other MMO's".
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
Maybe people aren't giving WoW the credit because they were there at launch and saw all the bugs it really had. So many people look at World of Warcraft through rose colored glasses and seem to think it had the most flawless launch of any MMO. Which couldn't be further from the truth. World of Warcraft had an average launch. Better then some for sure (AO and Vanguard come to mind), but worse then others (DAoC and CoH come to mind). WoW launched with unstable servers (doesn't matter how many people were playing their servers were not tested properly and weren't up to par), they had game crashing bugs (Loot bug that lasted far into the game's release, Rogue Vanish, Warping mobs, bugged guards especially in Booty Bay, too name a few), and their game didn't release with complete content. Maradaun(sp?) and Dire Maul weren't even in the game at launch.
But for some reason (Advertising
) World of Warcraft has this image of a flawless launch that was so polished (Blizzard's reputation and fanboy devotion helps fuel this misnomer) when in fact it was just an average to above average polished game at launch.
The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers.
So yes the market was much much smaller then. World of Warcraft did a good job of advertising to non-MMO players and getting them to play the game. They did an awesome job of converting Bnet players to a pay2play system. That is the great thing that WoW has done for the genre.
FIrst of all, None of those are heavy game breaking bugs. The game was a lot more polished then the titles you mentioned.
"The MMO market was a lot smaller in EQ's peak. Why can't you seem to fathom that World of Warcraft did not steal away millions of gamers from other MMO games. IT didn't happen GL. Lets take a look at peak population for MMO games before World of Warcraft launched. 5 million total subscribers in the Genre. So if World of Warcraft as you like to say has a majority of its player base from previous MMO players where did the other 4 million or so come from? And that would be stating that every other MMO game that existed in Jul 04 lost all 5 million subscribers when WoW launched. We know this isn't true as FFXI still has several hundred thousand subscribers, Lineage still has over 1 million, Lineage 2 still has hundres of thousands, EQ2 is over 150K, EVE actually grew during this same time frame, etc etc. The MMOs that were big in NA/EU back in July of 2004 had less then 3 million total subscribers. "
hold up, I said that I think a majority of World of Warcrafts playerbase played games before, not MMO's. But when talking about the asian MMO market, especialy chinese players, chances are big that a lot of them already played MMO's before, but the games you mentioned, but games like Legend of Mir and especialy fantasy westward journey 1 and 2.
And ofcourse, there are lots of MMO's including Everquest and FFXI that lost a lot of subscribers to Wow.
None of them are heavy game breaking bugs? Lets see people called Vanguard too buggy because mobs warped around during combat, same thing happened in WoW at launch. Vanguard had bugs that caused people to have to relog to clear them, same thing happened in WoW. The loot bug was a game breaking bug. IT caused people to not be able to play the game and combined with server queues and server crashes it made the game unaccessible to a lot of players.
Secondly DAoC and CoH were both more polished then World of Warcraft was at launch. There were no massive rants about those games being broken like WoW had.
Lastly, yes a lot of people left EQ1, FFXI, and other games to play WoW. But that number is a lot smaller then you infer. World of Warcraft is made up primarily of players who are playing their first MMO game. That is the majority of the playerbase. Statistically there is no way to deny that fact.
Honestly GL I would like to know what you consider to be game breaking bugs then? Server crashes, bugs that cause me to have to log off, warping mobs that can't be hit, class defining skills that do not work, and town guards that are completely bugged sound like game breaking bugs to me. If those were bugs in EQ2 or Vanguard you would be all over them denouncing the poor coding of the game.
No, mobs around warping around during combat is an annoying bug, but not gamebreaking, especialy considering it really didn't happen that much. The only real bugs I consider gamebreaking are things like bosses not re-spawning, quest items not dropping, skills that never work, of which to my knowledge aren't a lot of in WoW, not in the EU release at least. In fact, the only memorable bad thing about WoW's EU release was the fact the account creation website was down all day. I received my copy at 10 am, and I could start playing the game at 11 pm. City of Heroes was more polished, but with that said...the game was go to an npc, get quest, go inside an instance, kill everything inside, get out, repeat....seriously, how much can go wrong? Now I don't know about Daoc's US release but the EU release was a nightmare. Mobs missing, skills not working, tons of client crashes.
Also, I never denied that a big amount of players, maybe even the majority, has never played an mmorpg before (there is no way to check this), but my arguement is against the people who make claims like "90% of WoW's population never played an MMO before" or "WoW players never play other MMO's".
Ahh I take back what I said about you GL. I keep forgetting you are one of those pesky EU people.Of course you weren't hounded by the Bugs that the NA release had, the game had 3 months to polish up before it released in EU. In fact I think some of the issues were patched in before the game even came out there in EU, but don't quote me on that part. Things like the Paladin bug that allowed a paladin to solo huge raid mobs. Also wasn't maraudan and dire maul added before it released there?
Also DAoC's NA release was a lot better then the EU release. About the only game breaking bug in the NA release was the fact that they hadn't itemized Hibernia's level 30+ content yet. Our mobs only dropped coins and no better weapons or armor. Which put us at quite a disadvantage compared to Albion and Midgard. I honestly think that is way Mythic seems to favor Hibernia now, they are still trying to make up for that fact.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
WoW is like any boyband ... will sell millions to the mindless masses but still sucks.
Everquest would have to be1: Better
2: more popular
than WoW, and its not. hence WoW is the beatles.
Unless you're MMO career began in 2004, you'd know Everquest is better than WOW. Granted WOW is a fine title but let's not get silly here.
BTW...never compare WOW to the Beatles..
Do you have anything to back it up? Oh nevermind, I know you don't. you just post your opinion and you make the mistake to think that its fact. Its not. WoW is better than Everquest, there is a good reason why the vast majority of critics gave it higher scores than Everquest. Just because you like Everquest better does not make EQ a better game than WoW.
Again WOW is a good title but let's be realistic...
If you're going to challenge one of the masters of this genre you better bring more ammo than subscription numbers and revisionist hyperbole. There's a diffrence between really good and Legendary I suggest you do some research.
Zarraa, If you're not going to back it up with facts then don't go into debate with me, EQ's Group encounters are better in YOUR OPINION, everything you mention is nothing but your opinion.
Learn that your opinion is not fact. it isn't, and it never will be. If Everquest truly was as good as WoW, it would have received better ratings. but it didn't, and there is a good reason for that.
Ok I'll concede these are opinions however they are based on playing both titles extensively which obviously you have not. My opinions are also based on first hand knowledge of design, AI and how games are actually made which again you know nothing about.
You see unlike you I'm a fan of the genre and not blindly loyal to a certain title. This objectivety allows me to weigh pro's and cons fairly as I've no vested intrest either way.
Now would you care to dispute my opinions with counter points since you've extensive knowledge of both titles.
Oh that's right you don't...
So your a fan of the genre, cool, but your also a developer right? Because with all that in depth knowledge to how they're made and design you must be a dev.
well i'll entertain this very "I'm better than you because i said so" with one of my own.
"k, you obviously know nothing because I pretty much play mmos day and night so there's no way you know more than me, actually I ounce watched a behind scenes video so I'm also pretty in the know with how they're made. I know way more than you.
See unlike you I don't pretend to know mmos because I actually do and seeing as how I my opinions are way better than yours you should just give up now."
Well wasn't that fun and look how much I accomplished, absolutely nothing. Like GL said earlier, saying you know more than someone else and telling him that you have more extensive knowledge about these games is a stupid statement because there's no way you can back that up so just try to stick to facts.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
Fact is you shouldn't continue to play a mmo you don't like just because your friends like it but you should play games you've actually heard are good rather than going for the ones people say are bad just because you don't want to flow with the crowd.
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
The gamer markes was smaller in 1999, but its peak was in 2004. Not to mention that both Everquest and UO have been released in Asia. The mmorpg market was smaller in EQ's peak..but not that much smaller.
I've seen the same thing, it seems like there's a real trend going on now where players target WoW as a bad game because they don't like how popular it is. I'll agree I don't think WoW is all that original but it is accessible and it seems like players like to target WoW with threads like "WoW is Dead" and such just because they don't like the game and they hate that everyone else does. This game has changed the genre, yes a lot of it's player base have never played an mmo before but why is that a bad thing? If you ask me this genre could do with more players, isn't that what mmos are about, playing with a lot of different players?
-Snowman <- this name was taken.....but I like it more
Indeed that is what mmos are all about, playing a game with others. Period.