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Stealth ??
FE|Tachyon
Member UncommonPosts: 652
I was just crusing the other game forums, and I hear something that made my ears fall off!!!! Theres a big big MMO comming out around the same time as AoC, (I WONT SAY THE NAME) and it WILL NOT have stealth!! Will Stealth be in AoC? I can't see how a game doesn't have stealth, its part of MMO Culture! I don't plan to play one in AoC because I've played one in every other game i've ever played, but I'd cry if they didn't have it.
Comments
I could be wrong, I think you can stealth, but not the traditional way. Other player still see you, you're only harder to see.
Stealth has been a crutch for a lot of players for a long time. It leads to stealth wars and frustrated players. Stealth classes are typically the most played of any class. Personally, I'm happy to see no stealth in that other game you mention.
Hopefully there will be no stealth in AoC, the only class that would have an excuse would be a mage type class since turning yourself invisible is magic. Gank newbs from stealth in other games people..
Going by the latest video of the "stealth" class, you can indeed go into stealth, and it's indeed invisible-type stealth.
Though they did say that your surrounding would effect how invisible you were able to be.
An unnecessary aspect in MMOs. Hopefully it will be done away with in the upcoming MMOs.
Real stealth is sneaking around unnoticed without having to turn into the predator.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
I didn't even see stealth in an MMO until WoW...so yeah.... If it's done right I don't mind it (I liked WoW stealth fairly well), but I certainly don't think it's needed. I'd far rather an MMO lets you actually...um...blend in.
I'm not frustrated by being killed by a stealther. I'm frustrated by the Stealth Wars. In DAoC, Darkness Falls turned into gank central. WoW had stealth runs for quests and other farming purposes. That removes a large portion of the players from the game by having that route available and more people end up creating characters that use stealth so they aren't excluded.
I find playing stealthers very boring personally. I had an Infiltrator in DAoC. The only time it was really challenging was when I took on a group of 4+ people. If stealth is in a game, it should be implemented like it is in the Splinter Cell games, you have to use your environment to hide. You can't be standing out in the middle of daylight in a grass field with 2" high blades of grass and be invisible. That's just stupid.
I like what the poster above me said. The wow stealth raids on dungeons was kinda crap. And DAoC's stealther gank was sometimes taken to the extremes or ridiculousness. I don't mind Stealth as long as there is a class that can detect them and I'm not talking about blindly firing off area spells or just swinging your weapon through the air hoping to clip the sneaky bastard.
Also going invisible 2 feet from your intended target is kind of dumb.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Athelan said that the skill to see stealthers was not in the build for Drag Con
And real combat is lifting up a sword and swinging it not hitting some buttons on a keyboard.
eh?
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Just extending his analogy and thought process. Based on his complaint that stealth isn't realistic, he would ultimately conclude that a game in itself is not realistic and must therefore cease to play since he also wants stealth to cease existing.
http://stage6.divx.com/user/nunduniel/video/1560083/Assassine---Games-Convention-2007---aoc-gamona-de
Stealth
Stealth is done well in Shadowbane. Rogues have less hitpoints and do less damage than other classes. So its balanced. And scouts can see stealthers, so if you have a scout around, you don't have to worry about stealthers.
So it really depends on how its done.
I believe it was Athelan (is that how you spell it?) that said that all classes can stealth, but Rogues can do it better. Also stealth all depends on where you are for detection.
Or maybe I'm crazy.
http://bymitra.com/search/13243
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There is nothing saying that the stuff seen at GC is complete, far from it, the playfield could have been missing the lightmap needed to make stealth not work everywhere, the characters could be lacking perception in their buff scripts, yada yada yada the list goes on and on. If you want to sit on a corner bathing yourself in ashes and proclaiming the end of the world fine, but the rest of us have a game to finish.
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Can you comment on the stealth system? From the Assassin video, the guy does pretty much pop in and out of stealth at will, even when out in the open. Are there any constraints on where you can turn on stealth, or is it more like you can turn it on, but if you're out in the open it's worthless?
Thank you
As I stated in my first post, just because one is attempting to stealth doesn't mean it's actually useful. Stealth doesn't work the same as WoW, and that's actually the "problem" here--as people are leaping to the conclusion that it does, and basing it off that perspective.
It's quite possible that in most cases, if someone was stealthing in the open areas of the playfield there, other people would still see them. Just because you are in stealth mode doesn't make you automatically a ninja--there are a lot of detection rolls going on in regard to the "light" level of where you are standing, your hiding skills, and the perception skills of the people around you.
You won't get "out of stealth" because people see you, but you do have an indicator (not sure if it was present in the demo version, though) as to if people can see you.
Balance Team Lead
Maybe its just me, but it seems the only reason for hateing stealth is people are tired of dying to stealthers. The stealth didn't kill you. The fact that you couldn't kill that person did. WoW stealth is done very very well, however i think that you should be able to see the person far more easily. In battle 1 person could hide, but when its 1 v 1, chances are your going to have a hard time hiding. That is how it should play out in games too.
Those dev-posts sound like they're implementing a D&D-inspired stealth system, which is quite cool in my book. Perception vs. stealth rolls are exactly how it "should" work. A tough angry barbarian with a 2h axe of light-reflection should be able to hide from a 90-year old mage with arthritis in both eyes, whereas a stealthy assassin-type should have problems in full sunlight, in the middle of a field, naked, with 3 ex-cons named "Bubba" at point-blank range.
Stealthers, by definition, are chickens. They rely on their ability to "pick the opportune moment" and avoid all others. Taking away their ability to remain at 2 feet off their target in full sunlight on a snowy plain, not only adds to fairness, but also to realism- both for the target and the stealther. I can already feel my heart beating in my throat with the risk of being detected by a really big man with shiny muscles and a big frickin two-hander.
And I swear I didn't mean that to sound that way...
Now playing: City of Heroes/Villains, Age of Conan
Played: Eve, Hg:L, Vanguard, WoW, FFXI, Planetside, Neocron, Battlezone, EQII, AO, CoX, AA, DDO
I win at Vanguard.
DId you hear about GW? it is a great mmo but it dont got stealth cause it can get PVP too unbalanced.
In other way, there was a mod of Neverwinter focused on pvp (ok there were a lot but one concrete that was really good).- BOTD. Battle of the dragons, here, the stealth people isnt too overpowered, except this ones that can hide in sight plan one time and another (shadowdancers). So, all can be controlled, I preffer a game with all kind of effects, stealth, teleport, fly (like CoH) but still balanced so you can play anything, perhaps, the way is to "counter" tactics, so every class/build/player tipe has it chances and the same importance in a team.
1. Stealthers, by definition are chickens ... Well I dictionary.com 'd that one, and your wrong. Stealthers almost ALWAYS have a huge hit point disadvantage. If a game doesn't account for a rogue being able to get the "Oppertune" moment, then It's the games fault, not the act of stealthing.
2. The game by meer designt lacks realism. How many MAGES do you know? How many Priests that do anything besides little boys have you seen?
This was a attempt to discredit an entire game mechanic, due to the fear of being killed, befor you could run.
DId you hear about GW? it is a great mmo but it dont got stealth cause it can get PVP too unbalanced.
In other way, there was a mod of Neverwinter focused on pvp (ok there were a lot but one concrete that was really good).- BOTD. Battle of the dragons, here, the stealth people isnt too overpowered, except this ones that can hide in sight plan one time and another (shadowdancers). So, all can be controlled, I preffer a game with all kind of effects, stealth, teleport, fly (like CoH) but still balanced so you can play anything, perhaps, the way is to "counter" tactics, so every class/build/player tipe has it chances and the same importance in a team.
I think the idea should be to balance the classes that have advanced stealthing. I find that most people that cry about stealth don't PvP, or well they Don't TRY to PvP. People can't run soon as they see somebody, if well .... THEY DON'T SEE THEM. .
I am glad they do not have stealth...if people are going to turn invis infront of your eyes they that should be a spell. I do not mind the immoble stealth so much. That is more like hiding yourself, but when they move they should become visible. If stealth before your eyes is allowed then every class should have a way to reveal them. Should be an ability they have to use that can not be spammed. Also a target that can stealth should not be able to stealth if someone has them targeted and is in combat with them.
2. The game intends to implement a fantasy equivalent of "stealthing", within fantasized laws of physics. Thereby it sets a "fantasy realism standard" for itself- it cannot violate this standard. Otherwise I'm gonna roll an F/A-18 Hornet and pwn j00 all.
Your very post is an unfair one (very roguish) by stating that "any whining about stealthers is done by people who get killed by them in pvp". You basically make sure that either people don't whine, or you make sure to turn any response against the stealther-case into an argument for stealthers; for if they get beaten, then surely stealthers must receive an easier time.
I could agree with your argument by explaining the anekdote where my Manticore got shot by an Armageddon. Alternatively, I could disagree with you by telling you what my Warlock used to do to Rogues who attempted to take me on. Either way, we both don't know how exactly AoC is gonna implement stealth- we only know that they're gonna do it.
Now playing: City of Heroes/Villains, Age of Conan
Played: Eve, Hg:L, Vanguard, WoW, FFXI, Planetside, Neocron, Battlezone, EQII, AO, CoX, AA, DDO
I win at Vanguard.
2. The game intends to implement a fantasy equivalent of "stealthing", within fantasized laws of physics. Thereby it sets a "fantasy realism standard" for itself- it cannot violate this standard. Otherwise I'm gonna roll an F/A-18 Hornet and pwn j00 all.
Your very post is an unfair one (very roguish) by stating that "any whining about stealthers is done by people who get killed by them in pvp". You basically make sure that either people don't whine, or you make sure to turn any response against the stealther-case into an argument for stealthers; for if they get beaten, then surely stealthers must receive an easier time.
I could agree with your argument by explaining the anekdote where my Manticore got shot by an Armageddon. Alternatively, I could disagree with you by telling you what my Warlock used to do to Rogues who attempted to take me on. Either way, we both don't know how exactly AoC is gonna implement stealth- we only know that they're gonna do it.
Your F-18 Hornet comment doesn't hold water. Your saying its TOTALY realistic to be able to make minions crawl from the ground, and attack something for you? Its totaly realistic to pull a horse out of your backpack. Its totaly realistic to carry a lance 10 feet long in a backpack thats not even seen on your body. However somebody cannot sneak up infront of somebody else??? USMC Snipers do it. Although VERY SLOWLY, but they Do it.
if (Light * Shadow Presence) + (Stealth skill - Perception skill) / Stealther Speed >0 = Perceived
Something like that. Perhaps even add "Foliage" or "partially obscured by tree" as parameters...
Now playing: City of Heroes/Villains, Age of Conan
Played: Eve, Hg:L, Vanguard, WoW, FFXI, Planetside, Neocron, Battlezone, EQII, AO, CoX, AA, DDO
I win at Vanguard.