Talk of free MMOs and item sales from Smed

JestorRodo

from: http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/01/sony-online-ceo.html

Sony Online CEO Sees Free MMOs, Item Sales As Future Of Industry

By Earnest Cavalli January 14, 2008 | 4:17:17 PMCategories: CES 2008  

Like many other industry luminaries, Sony Online Entertainment CEO John Smedley sees the MMO industry shifting drastically away from its  pay-to-play subscription models in the near future.

Smedley's main point -- and I think one that resonates with a lot of industry decision-makers -- is that the free-to-play market simply opens your game to so many more people. "These games are more accessible to people if the barrier to entry isn't a credit card," Smedley says.

Continuing, Smedley provides the greatest argument for the free subscription business plan: "In order for people to see the games, they have to be able to play them; we're opening them up to that possibility by letting them play for free."

In the past, Sony has been one of the most influential supporters in the argument over virtual item sales. While Second Life was created almost specifically to facilitate such transactions, SOE was the first major traditional MMO company to support the sales of in-game items in their games such as Everquest II, Star Wars Galaxies and the upcoming The Agency.

Smedley, in support of that position, wants to clarify to players and the industry at large, that the key to that sort of permissiveness, for Sony at least, is to make items available for sale that do not specifically give an advantage to a player. "Our position on the selling of items, and I realize this is a controversial position, is always to focus on non-game-altering items." he says.

Certainly that answers those who would decry the system for allowing players to buy their way through the game's grind.

Continuing along that same logical path, Smedley casually mentioned SOE's commitment to reversing the trend as well; they also would like to see item's that are traditionally sold in stores as in-game drops. Smedley says, "we have been debating in [Legends of Norrath] about having 30-day timecards as some of the loot cards."

It's almost guaranteed that most companies are going to prefer utilizing the route that forces players to give them real-world cash to play their addicting MMO-of-the-moment, the inclusion of in-game time cards as dropped items in any game would be wildly successful.

Smedley's final comments were on the subject of peripheral services -- Thottbot, for instance, is a website whose entire focus (and sole revenue source) is providing information to World of Wacraft players.

Smedley would like to see sites like these given the full support of developers. As he says, "I want us to push forward in the direction of people evangelizing our games," then adding some vague comments about his intent to allow peripheral companies to "buy in" to the game.

Whether he's referring to Sony's intent to charge these sites for their use of SOE's IPs or if he would rather see these sites actively funded by Sony is sort of up in the air, but you can bet that Thottbot, Allakhazam and the like are reading his words with great interest.  End quote

Free works for me , Let me know when I can Play the NGE for free and I will play it.

 

Sharajat

Wow, I always thought SOE was run by blithering idiots, but its disturbing to see your suspicions confirmed in such an Onion-esque manner.

candygirl6

 

www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-1/

He's an idiot.

 

The reason he uses to justify ITEM SHOPS and VIRTUAL TRADING is because he wants to attract more kids to SOE games, he says, because the games would be F2P but with shops.

He's right that mostly adults play SOE games, but justifying item shops under the cover of 'opening the market' is just a failed lie. WoW is Pay2Play and has a huge amount of kids playing.

 

Then he slips his tongue when he says how much LoN is making and why they have item shops. A few lines after his reasoning he justifies LoN (ITEM SHOP) because it brings in a lot of revenue , he even says how much per person.

 

So he's contradicting himself and blatantly lying. It's about the $, don't let $OE foul you.

 

Sandbox

I would not touch the NGE even if I got paid 15 a month.

candygirl6

www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-1/

 

"Great subscriber bases for EverQuest and EverQuest 2 and Galaxies, pretty much. As long as people pay us money we'll keep running it. We've refocused on one expansion a year with these games now, I think we let quality slip too much when we were doing two, and I'm happy with where we are on that. We have a great player base and we're making some money so there's no point in not continuing."

SOE is such a messed up pos company. I'm not buying anything of them ever again.

JestorRodo

Smed said "Smedley, in support of that position, wants to clarify to players and the industry at large, that the key to that sort of permissiveness, for Sony at least, is to make items available for sale that do not specifically give an advantage to a player. "Our position on the selling of items, and I realize this is a controversial position, is always to focus on non-game-altering items." he says."

 Ok then, You are going to sell items instead of charging a Sub but they are going to be non game altering like a Golden Tutu and Saphire slippers.  I really don't think that this is going to be the progressive path to a successful MMo gaming business model. I am not suprised that SOE is planning on adopting it.

candygirl6

Originally posted by JestorRodo


Smed said "Smedley, in support of that position, wants to clarify to players and the industry at large, that the key to that sort of permissiveness, for Sony at least, is to make items available for sale that do not specifically give an advantage to a player. "Our position on the selling of items, and I realize this is a controversial position, is always to focus on non-game-altering items." he says."
 Ok then, You are going to sell items instead of charging a Sub but they are going to be non game altering like a Golden Tutu and Saphire slippers.  I really don't think that this is going to be the progressive path to a successful MMo gaming business model. I am not suprised that SOE is planning on adopting it.

www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-1/

 Read this if you're interested in it, it's 2008 interview, second part at the bottom.

MChavez

Yay! This is good news for a person like me who is utterly bored and sick of the MMORPG genre. But, somewhere deep down inside of me, I am still obsessed with these types of games even though most developers seem to be content with giving us the same old rubbish game after game. There are days when I convince myself that even WoW is ripe for me to have another go at it, but then I quickly realize the insanity of such thoughts. And, if upcoming releases such as WAR or AoC turn out to be total turds, at least now I'll be able to download and try out EQ2 or VG for the 20th time each (w/o having to pay for a 1 month sub. up front) because somewhere inside my head I'll convinced myself that these games have some merit to them (being let down, yet again, by any new release).  Really, that is all F2P games are good for: it gives something for the bored gamer to do who has already tried these games at least one time but because of the lack of anything else interesting, goes back to them....over and over ad infinitum. These types of games thrive off the boredom of gamers. Maybe they won't get a full month sub from us, but a micro transaction or two adds up! Just look at the insane success of Second Life!

VPellen

I believe the idea of "Free to Play with an item shop" is good in some situations, but you need to think very carefully about the kind of items you actually sell. The problem with "We'll only sell aesthetic items" is that quite a few players care about aesthetic items more than gameplay items.

candygirl6

 

"Massively: Talking about Legends of Norrath, how do you feel like the game has done in these couple of months since the game came out?

John Smedley:

Really well! I can give you some numbers: our average customer spends $133 dollars. We have been able to successfully convert 40% of our customers into Legends of Norrath players. "

 

haha, the average customer is spending over 133$ on non existant in-game items

"to open the market for kids"

He's such a bad lier.

candygirl6

 

Originally posted by VPellen


I believe the idea of "Free to Play with an item shop" is good in some situations, but you need to think very carefully about the kind of items you actually sell. The problem with "We'll only sell aesthetic items" is that quite a few players care about aesthetic items more than gameplay items.

Well, that's another lie of him.

 

The LoN items for Everquest are very powerfull. That's why people are spending over 133$ on them. I have no respect for him, or for SOE.

Trollstar

Hell, I'd be all for item shop games if you actually could buy items that gave you an advantage over other players. But for the junk that he's talking about, forget it, I'll stick with the traditional P2P model.

 

Kordesh

 

Originally posted by candygirl6


 
"Massively: Talking about Legends of Norrath, how do you feel like the game has done in these couple of months since the game came out?
John Smedley:
Really well! I can give you some numbers: our average customer spends $133 dollars. We have been able to successfully convert 40% of our customers into Legends of Norrath players. "
 
haha, the average customer is spending over 133$ on non existant in-game items
"to open the market for kids"
He's such a bad lier.

 

Is that a month or is that in total. Personally, my issue with this has always stemmed not from the method itself, but the community a f2p MMO tends to generate, and the lack of accomplishment in getting items when you can just throw money at the game and get them. You're not longer playing the game, you're swiping a card. Now, if it was more along the lines of costume crap or custom names and features or exp bonus things that would be better, however, then rolls in the issue of exploiting the system. Whos to say they dont make "normal" exp mind blowingly grindy just so people will buy their exp packs, and make mobs impossible to solo without their stat buff pack. The potential for exploitation is huge. It CAN be a good model if people played MMOs responsibly. If the benefits weren't stupid like "oh hey buy all your items and gold and not even have to play the game" and more or less were features or slight bonuses, if you spent $15 a month at the shop or whatever you could spent money and support the game when you wanted to, and when you couldn't or didn't feel like it, you would also have that option, but you would be getting a sort of reward for that donation thats personal to you as opposed to just pumping it to the company to keep the servers online or hoping the content they make interests you at all.

 

In theory, yes, it could actually work well and be beneficial to players and make everyone happy as he said. However, the reality and why he comes off as a moron is that we have seen in practice many many times before, corruption, greed, and the inability for players to restrain themselves causes the whole system to fall apart.

PS: I don't see whats wrong with that EQ2 SWG quote. Its just saying "theres a good community, we're still making money, therefore, we're not going to stop". I would assume the inherant "evil" thing is that "oh noes, they're only keeping the game going because they're making money." Well....yeah. I don't think SoE is going to begin running a charity and pay out for servers and upgrades while their company goes slowly bankrupt out of good will.

 

EDIT: "Hell, I'd be all for item shop games if you actually could buy items that gave you an advantage over other players. But for the junk that he's talking about, forget it, I'll stick with the traditional P2P model."

Thats exactly what should NEVER happen.

JestorRodo

Originally posted by candygirl6

Originally posted by JestorRodo


Smed said "Smedley, in support of that position, wants to clarify to players and the industry at large, that the key to that sort of permissiveness, for Sony at least, is to make items available for sale that do not specifically give an advantage to a player. "Our position on the selling of items, and I realize this is a controversial position, is always to focus on non-game-altering items." he says."
 Ok then, You are going to sell items instead of charging a Sub but they are going to be non game altering like a Golden Tutu and Saphire slippers.  I really don't think that this is going to be the progressive path to a successful MMo gaming business model. I am not suprised that SOE is planning on adopting it.

www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-1/

 Read this if you're interested in it, it's 2008 interview, second part at the bottom.

  Thanks  and to quote  Smed from that "John Smedley: I have to say "We are in close contact with our friends in the industry.".....Heavens knows we have made enough enemies of the players.

Kyleran

SOE is obviously enamored with the F2P model, expect many of their new titles to follow it.

 

candygirl6

 

Originally posted by Kordesh


 
 
.
PS: I don't see whats wrong with that EQ2 SWG quote. Its just saying "theres a good community, we're still making money, therefore, we're not going to stop". I would assume the inherant "evil" thing is that "oh noes, they're only keeping the game going because they're making money." Well....yeah. I don't think SoE is going to begin running a charity and pay out for servers and upgrades while their company goes slowly bankrupt out of good will.
 

Wel, I don't know if you know the status of Everquest and HOW they run it.

 

-Servers crash daily.

-They went from over 30 dev to less than 7. But they still bring out expansions.

-They went from having a GM for every server, to 0 GM's.

-They outsourced their CS to india for the most part.

Yes they're running their games, but with the most and biggest amount of profit / cost possible.

paulscott

I find it unlikely that that they'll have direct cash to item.   but rather cash to credits to items,  credits being a tradable item.  

 

pretty much those who want to spend money on credits will, those who don't can have someone else pay the actual company(making it kinda like those people who never spend a dime, spend some cash).

Gameloading

Itemshops have been very successful, it's no surprise that a company like SOE wants to use it for certain games. With MMORPG's becomming more expensive to develop yet subscribtions for the average non - WoW MMORPG dropping, alternatives need to be found.

 

and Candygirl, you can't just point at WoW and then say "Look, you're wrong, p2p mmo's do open up to a wider audience!". simply because that's WoW, it's the exception, not the rule.

Torak

Where have you guys been? 

At the AGDC just about every major U.S. MMO company was gushing over the future of the alternitive payment model. Just about everyone of them, to include Bioware are looking at it.

Like it or not, for better or worse, alternitive pricing is where the industry is going. Here in the west, I'm betting you see a pricing structure start that is very similar to what Hellgate tried. Its hard to say, Silkroad is one of the most played MMO outside of WoW and GW (alternitive pricing btw) so maybe thats the route they will take also. Who knows? Wait and see.

SOE has been dabbling in this sort of thing for years with its EQ2 exchange thing and now with "The Agency". None of this is really news at all if you have been paying attention to the industry. Ralph Kostner has pretty much come out and said the flat fee subscription MMO is a dead end.

maskedweasel

Originally posted by Torak


Where have you guys been? 
At the AGDC just about every major U.S. MMO company was gushing over the future of the alternitive payment model. Just about everyone of them, to include Bioware are looking at it.
Like it or not, for better or worse, alternitive pricing is where the industry is going. Here in the west, I'm betting you see a pricing structure start that is very similar to what Hellgate tried. Its hard to say, Silkroad is one of the most played MMO outside of WoW and GW (alternitive pricing btw) so maybe thats the route they will take also. Who knows? Wait and see.
SOE has been dabbling in this sort of thing for years with its EQ2 exchange thing and now with "The Agency". None of this is really news at all if you have been paying attention to the industry. Ralph Kostner has pretty much come out and said the flat fee subscription MMO is a dead end.

All I can say, is that "in the west" item sales are not a popular way to go.  Personally I won't spend a dime on item sales. If the genre moves to that, well, I won't be missing much anyways, right now if you've played one MMO you've played them all. 

Not to mention out of all the big games coming out right now, the agency is the only one so far that I've seen that has confirmed this payment model more so as a test then anything. 

So, as everything else goes, we'll have to wait and see how much of a dead end monthly subscription MMOs really are.  All you're really changing is, instead of how much time you can spend playing you just see who can spend the most money.  Not only does this change how you pay but it changes the way games are to be played.

As usual though, only time will tell, but lets face it, when has Smedley ever had a GOOD idea?

Greslore

I whole heartedly disagree with Smed here.  By going with a F2P model, and gaining revenue by selling in game "items" would lead to a horrible inbalance.   The most I am willing to spend per month on a game is $16.  The people who have no issues spending insane amounts of money will always be the "best".  I won't enjoy a game knowing that matter how good a player I am, or the amount of time I invest, I will never compete with the "big boys" unless I spend as much as they do.  It will become like a "club", that I can never afford (or am willing to pay for) to join. 

Quite frankly, I would never play a game with this financial model.  I would much rather play a game where I am on equal footing with everyone else.  I think its more fun to earn the "sword of 1000 truths" rather than just spend $55 on it.  Not to mention, this is going to make ALOT of people broke if they have addictive personalities - kind of like gambling. 

Neh - I dont like this model one bit!

paulscott

making people broke to play a game, I'm sure investors have no issue with that.

as for item shop type deals you don't always have the "sword of 1,000 truths" for sale in the shop.   instead you have the you look pretty now, and limited time use things.

popinjay

Cash Item shops.

You know, these games dont fail. You know why? They all start free to play. The developers of this genre (asian mostly) put loads of development into the early levels.. making the character seem fun, exciting interesting and fresh. The majority of them set your character so strong early, and the mobs so insanely weak early that you can pick even healers and do major ownage. You dont need any healing of any type,. You know they sell hp potions in the shop, but thats for suckers.. You dont need them in this game. This part of the game is all solo, you dont need any party and they design the game this way. You feel really good about this free game and wonder why the hell cant all US makers make games like this. You feel like you found some little secret that the rest of North America wasnt smart enough to find out about. "Suckers, let them pay a monthly fee.. Ive got Nine Moons of the Ninja Dragon in a Perfect Age! Woohoo!"

 Then after the first 40 levels, you start to notice something bad about these games. Quests start falling off.. I dont mean a little, a huge amount. The mobs that were all ridicoulously easy, start pounding the crap out of you. Those silly pots they sold in the shops that were once for suckers, are now starting to look pretty damn good, because after every fight, youre sitting on the ground resting for 5 mins. The experience rate that was articially inflated earlier to get you breezin into this range, now is completely reversed, and designed to keep you crawling along for the bare minimum of exp.  Think youll get around it by fighting mobs 5-10 levels over your character? Nope. They made all mobs, regardless of level, drop pretty much the same amount of crappy exp so no incentive to fight higher. Youre also not gonna get drops 10 levels higher out of those mobs so you can sell to npcs or other players. That would mean you can generate some cash, and they want you on the item shop. Armor repairs are now almost too much to keep up with. And the good stuff, costs even more to repair.

After 10 more levels, youll pull your hair out because youll realize that after 50+ levels of craziness, you now have about... 80 or 90 more levels to go to reach max. Now that cash shop starts to look real good as you see all the asian characters with glowing weapons, incredible armor, and mounts than run faster than the wind. They all have pocket fulls of exp scrolls they spam every hour and have made nothing but Area Of Effect parties (AoE to those that dont know) and any kind of traditional leveling (tank, healer, DDs, support) is never gonna happen. Theres no payoff in that. Too long, too slow. Heck, you cant even go to that setup just for a change. You wont find any healers or tanks taking damage just for fun; that costs them money. After 2 months, you WILL quit. You have now spent more money than you would have just doing a regular monthly sub. Cannot stay competitive any other way by playing "free".

Smed knows this. A lot of others companies have already studied it. If people dont wake up now before its too late, and realize that old saying "Nothing in life is free" youre gonna pay for this down the line. Leave these bad graphic, no story, pking, money wringing, bad translation games alone. Stop playing them, stop checking them out. At the very least, STOP buying stuff from the cash shop.

If this Agency game ends up making more money by selling you a infrared goggle that you cant get unless its some crazy lucky drop, ppl will rush to buy them. Theyll claim its "non essential" but you know what? Seeing a guy in the dark who cant see you isnt essential, but its darn good to have. That talk about "non essential" items not sold in cash shops is BS. Who's gonna sell stuff that wont sell?

Sovrath

Originally posted by Gameloading


Itemshops have been very successful, it's no surprise that a company like SOE wants to use it for certain games. With MMORPG's becomming more expensive to develop yet subscribtions for the average non - WoW MMORPG dropping, alternatives need to be found.
 
and Candygirl, you can't just point at WoW and then say "Look, you're wrong, p2p mmo's do open up to a wider audience!". simply because that's WoW, it's the exception, not the rule.

I'd also like to point out that it is very possible that many of those players who play WoW might be taking advantage of the 3rd party gold sellers, in which case they are using an item shop of sorts.

Since 3rd party mmo shops actually do exist and are thriving it makes sense that many players are not only willing to pay a monthly subscription but they are also willing to use their money to purchase characters, gold, items.

All SOE (and other companies) want to do is to actually make money off of their property where others are profiting.

Jenus1

Mr Smedly is optimimistic about the MMO industry, he has pretty realistic visions for the future of the genre, chances are they'll be realized.



SOE is one of the major players in the MMO industry, I support free games, saves paying

JestorRodo

Originally posted by Gameloading


Itemshops have been very successful, it's no surprise that a company like SOE wants to use it for certain games. With MMORPG's becomming more expensive to develop yet subscribtions for the average non - WoW MMORPG dropping, alternatives need to be found.
 
and Candygirl, you can't just point at WoW and then say "Look, you're wrong, p2p mmo's do open up to a wider audience!". simply because that's WoW, it's the exception, not the rule.

  But now WoW is the standard , not just an exception and it  is because SOE so desperately try to meet this new standard they lost more player accounts then if they stand the course.