There's no formal legislation on virtual property and trading so you know as little as anyone else does. SOE can't use LoN in 7 US states because it's against the law there fyi. If a person buys from the LoN store in one of those 7 states where it's illegal (including europe) and there's discussion about the acquisition, I would love to know what would happen. It wouldn't be that simple.
And what do you think will happen when a parent finds out their child spend thousands of dollars with a click on virtual items without their consent. You think that will never occur? You think that won't happen? Of course it will. I'd reconsider just treating this as something that insignificant, because it's not. And you cannot compare an expansion or an extension to a game where actual content is presented to an an item that has no actual value. This system is stupid. I'm not sure why you can't see this and feel like defending it, but whatever. I think it's a moronic business perspective.
Because nobody ever bothered to check on all those companies selling virtual items, right? You're grasping at straws here. Selling virtual content has NEVER been against the law .
Jesus christ, can you look things up before you spew nonsense.
LoN for items is illegal in 7 US states and in europe atm, that's why people were upset they couldn't join. It falls under gambling legislation.
And we were talking about virtual trading here, items and currencies. Not just content, don't change the discussion.
I'm done with your discussion, you obviously have some self interest involved.
Shocking news: Items and currencies IS content. Maybe you should look things up before you spew nonsense, I'll say it again, Buying Virtual content is NOT illegal, if they were then one of the hundreds of item shop mmo's would be sued to oblivion by now, but it's not happening, why? Because you don't know what the heck you're talking about, buying and selling virtual content is not against the law, deal with it. If you are indeed refering to Legends of Norrath the Trading Card Game then you make some very comparissons as it has nothing to do with an actual item shop as a card game is not an mmorpg.
Love your logic thoug. "You try to bring the facts to the table and disagree with my wild assumptions!? wow, you must have some self interest". Damn candygirl6, you caught me, it's all over now.
In my opinion, like it or not item mall sales are here to stay and i think it will grow side by side with subscription method of payment. Some people prefer item malls instead of subscription while some like subscription more than item malls. But one thing is for sure, the choice is out there for the community and I think it's wonderful we HAVE a CHOICE on which subsciption method the players can use.
The only reason why Smed is saying this is because there is NO SOE MMORPG worth paying $15 a month for.
I'm also AGAINST selling in-game items to the highest bidder. I mean, purchasing your way to power is just silly. Everybody should just play the same game and with one flat monthly fee for IMPROVING the GAME, adding CONTENT and not just REVAMPS.
The only reason why Smed is saying this is because there is NO SOE MMORPG worth paying $15 a month for. I'm also AGAINST selling in-game items to the highest bidder. I mean, purchasing your way to power is just silly. Everybody should just play the same game and with one flat monthly fee for IMPROVING the GAME, adding CONTENT and not just REVAMPS. Smed just doesn't know how to operate a fanbase.
Muahahaha, Smed is knowing what he is doing. Let's think back about 3 weeks ago - the rumor sale by Zapak. If you were Smed what would you do to make your company look less attactive to a potential buyer?
First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
The only reason why Smed is saying this is because there is NO SOE MMORPG worth paying $15 a month for. I'm also AGAINST selling in-game items to the highest bidder. I mean, purchasing your way to power is just silly. Everybody should just play the same game and with one flat monthly fee for IMPROVING the GAME, adding CONTENT and not just REVAMPS. Smed just doesn't know how to operate a fanbase.
Muahahaha, Smed is knowing what he is doing. Let's think back about 3 weeks ago - the rumor sale by Zapak. If you were Smed what would you do to make your company look less attactive to a potential buyer?
First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
excellent rebuttal to Hellmarauder's post. Hes an intelligent guy, but I think hes off base and not in-touch with what US and other country gamers want, as opposed to what 2/3rds of the world wants. By making a statement that since the majority of the world' population is there, they must know something we dont.
So I guess that means famine, dictatorship, poverty, caste structures in society, underdeveloped infrastructures and squalor are the way to go too. Hmm.. I think they can have the monopoly on that. Plus, not to sound xenophobic, but I REALLY dont want to eat rice 3x a day just because most of the world does, following his logic. Ill stick with the spaghetti and pastas, fried chicken, hot dogs, real hamburgers, salad bars, FRESH milk, and desserts from all over.
As far as gaming, hes obviously a f2p fan, no crime there. If you like it fine. But you know, if your girlfriend has pretty eyes, but a jacked up face, huge feet, bad breath, and no personality.. dont expect me to compliment her on anything other than her eyes, because shes really a beast. Ill have to stay honest and call the beast what it is. And these cash shop games are nothing but underdeveloped, light story, long drawn out exp affairs designed to have you spend more OVERALL than just $20 bucks a month. If you take the average asian player, and ask him what he really spends overall, youll be hella-suprised to find, he spends MORE than US players each month. Thats because after a certain level, you grind too slow. I mean, not "enjoy the game, see the countryside" slow, I mean "waterboarding" slow. The only way to offset this is to buy experience scrolls to make what would be a normal rate of exp for anything other game, if that.
To sell exp scrolls is an advantage. Why? Other players, esp in a pvp format will outlevel you faster, and pk you. So you level slow, get your butt kicked over and over. Or, a group of cashshop kids level up, and own a certain mob spawn, daring anyone to cross them. To sell special healing pots is unfair. Why? If the crafters in the game cant make the normal items players use, why do Pharmacy? Crafting becomes useless. If they sell mounts that go 3x fast as any regular game mount, or unlimited teleporting or whatever.. that means people will be beating you to spawns or bosses for quests. I remember if FFXI botters owned some spawns.. they literally sat on a mob and told someone if they were waiting for this once a day spawn, they had to pay 1 million gold or they would quick claim it and kill it, just to spite. Or train mobs on you. It was nasty. Imagine letting goldsellers have access to cashshop items most people in the US loathe to spend extra on? Well, youd have what you have now in the azngrinders.. botting and goldsellers owning the joint.
Idk what kind of adults you hang around with, but the adults I do (not geeks) all talk about mmogaming or gaming of some kind; be it Madden, Bioshock, Wii or whatever. Saying most adults are scared to admit it.. falsehood nowadays. I THINK thats what being an adult is; taking responsibility and not caring what people think about what you do, long as you dont hurt anyone. Maybe some people who scared to grow up wont admit it, but most adults dont have a problem admitting it. Look at just about any poll out when they ask age.
The only reason why Smed is saying this is because there is NO SOE MMORPG worth paying $15 a month for. I'm also AGAINST selling in-game items to the highest bidder. I mean, purchasing your way to power is just silly. Everybody should just play the same game and with one flat monthly fee for IMPROVING the GAME, adding CONTENT and not just REVAMPS. Smed just doesn't know how to operate a fanbase.
Muahahaha, Smed is knowing what he is doing. Let's think back about 3 weeks ago - the rumor sale by Zapak. If you were Smed what would you do to make your company look less attactive to a potential buyer?
First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
There are a ton of asian games that have this EXACT model.
Free to play attracts players a dev would not normaly have.Make a good game get them hooked and open up an item mall.SOE id the 1st major developer to try this and make a profit.It is their game and therefore they can do what they want with it.
They SHOULD control the flow of gold and ingame money.Why is not ok for them to do this?
Why is it bad for virtual resellers to do so and not the company that owns it?I dont see it as cheating if the dev in question makes it legal in a item store.
Oh thats right now i see the problem.It is SOE and they should NEVER make a profit on a game they develop.
Yet another thread by another bitter former eq/swg player.Why am i not surprised anymore.
I predict within the next 2 to 3 years about 80% to 90% of all mmo's will be free to play anyway.All it takes is 1 developer to show that it can be done.
Why is it bad for virtual resellers to do so and not the company that owns it?I dont see it as cheating if the dev in question makes it legal in a item store.
Because for years and years this company went on and on about the negative affects virtual sales had on games and the playerbase. When they realized they could make an extra buck off of it, they suddenly changed their tune and act as if they are doing players a favor.
SOE will take this to new extremes and the game will suffer as a result of it. They are never just happy with a game that is turning a profit or has a happy playerbase.
Regardless of how SOE wants to spin thin, in the end all you will get is a game that requires you to spend more that $15 a month to get the same amount of content as you would with a subscription game. Their business model seems to have changed from getting a big subscriber base to getting the most out of each subscriber so they don't need a large base.
I just hope that the players like Opticaleye who all think this is such a swell idea, are the ones who pay the $133 a month they are talking about.
Because experience shows, its those people, who are saavy enough to know its a scam, who say its a "great idea" and spend nothing (freeloaders) and the ignorant who sign on believing the Free-to-Pay hype and end up paying for his, Optical's and a few more people's share. All the while, turdtastic gameplay (at least all the asian grinders are craptastic that Ive checked in the past) is their reward with little or no customer support or GM help.
Id rather pay $14.99/mo and get no support than average $133 a month and get the same non-existent level of support.
Just like all the people who play the lottery... poor, lowerclass, down on their luck people believing all you need is a "Dollar and a dream" and end up spending their entire incomes on slick advertising, thats what this model promises. Not to know it is stupid; not to acknowledge it WHEN you know it is dishonest, Optical.
Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and put an idea out there that is probably gonna get me flamed.
I couldn't help but think this sounded an awful lot like Smedley is basically giving up on the subscription based market and conceding defeat to Blizzard. I mean isn't he pretty much saying ok, they won the subscription fee market, but there are other markets out there and we plan to beat them to the punch there? Am I reading too much into this? Is my Fanboi showing?
Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and put an idea out there that is probably gonna get me flamed. I couldn't help but think this sounded an awful lot like Smedley is basically giving up on the subscription based market and conceding defeat to Blizzard. I mean isn't he pretty much saying ok, they won the subscription fee market, but there are other markets out there and we plan to beat them to the punch there? Am I reading too much into this? Is my Fanboi showing?
I think you're spot on. Hopefully WAR will beat the crap out of SOE as well.
Let them go to the free to play item shop model with all the kiddies. Leave the quality monthly subs to the ones that can produce quality and take care of their customers.
Well, lets address both Auto Assault and Eve Online. First, Auto Assault I never played but from what I gathered and the reason why people disliked it so much is because they felt it was nothing more than Everquest on Wheels. Having said that your game has to be both fun and innovative. If you release a pile of dung that spreads in a new way it is still a pile of dung.
Now, Eve Online, which is over 170kish subscriptions was an indie development and grew that high over the years. For some, that game is the best game of its type and best MMO ever created. Eve Online has a higher subscription total than Everquest, Everquest 2 (if numbers are correct we know of) and it might even be higher than or around LoTRO numbers. Combined, AC and AC2 at their peaks in subscriptions are lower than Eve Online.
I played Eve Online and it wasn't my cup of tea. It is a niche game but for being a niche game, something new and innovative, approaching 200k subscriptions is very successful and shows that yes innovation can be good.
Now you ask for evidence and the evidence will be there sooner than you think. The statistical evidence isn't available yet because the f2p/item shop market is relatively young. You also point to 45 million and what not for games like Maple Story but you fail to realize is that everyone and their mother signs up for these games and that they make no where near the amount of money that even Everquest 2, Eve Online or LoTRO brings in on a monthly basis.
Smedley's interview showed me how truly ignorant he is. To me, it sounds as if he thinks he knows the Holy Grail template for the f2p/item shop market. Trust me he does not know this because I've done the research myself, contrary to what you think. In the end you'll be realizing how wrong you and how wrong this ignorant executive are.
I just hope that the players like Opticaleye who all think this is such a swell idea, are the ones who pay the $133 a month they are talking about. Because experience shows, its those people, who are saavy enough to know its a scam, who say its a "great idea" and spend nothing (freeloaders) and the ignorant who sign on believing the Free-to-Pay hype and end up paying for his, Optical's and a few more people's share. All the while, turdtastic gameplay (at least all the asian grinders are craptastic that Ive checked in the past) is their reward with little or no customer support or GM help. Id rather pay $14.99/mo and get no support than average $133 a month and get the same non-existent level of support. Just like all the people who play the lottery... poor, lowerclass, down on their luck people believing all you need is a "Dollar and a dream" and end up spending their entire incomes on slick advertising, thats what this model promises. Not to know it is stupid; not to acknowledge it WHEN you know it is dishonest, Optical.
Hmm i never said i thought the idea was "swell".
Why is it such an issue for ANY company to offer virtual items if they are the devs of the game?
Im not hyping it by any means BUT it is a PROVEN success in most free to pay games.
Personally no i cant afford to play that way and yes i too would rather pay 14 hell id pay 25 a month if i thought a game was worth it.
All this does is cut out the middleman and the gold farmers.
Let me ask a question:Would you pay MORE than $14.99 a month if their were benefits?Lets say you get 10 plat for every month that you pay up front for?Or how about you pay $25 a month to get no xp debt?
Im pretty sure most people would.
Let me state in no uncertain terms that i never would buy anything in an item mall but i have no problem with a developer controlling most every aspect of a game.It is THEIR game and therefore all profit should be for the developers.
I just think since its SOE everyone jumps on board to bash the company.I seriously doubt the OP would ever say the same things about Blizzard if they were to open up an item mall.
Item malls are coming in the next 2 to 3 years get used to it.
It will only take 1 court case of a mom taking an MMO company to court because her child spend 1000$ on virtual items. The ball will start rolling. They're items that don't have a value, you can't sell thin air, because that's what it is.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
Didnt quote you to say swell, but its obvious you don't have a problem with this idea other than "its their game."
The reason why most US gamers think this is an issue, is because most US gamers think that when you buy anything in these cash shops, its cheating. Pure and simple. Thats why its an issue. When games put cashshops in, it changes the playing field no matter how much its masked as "non-essential" items or "not game changing". It is truly was, all theyd sell would be mainly costumes and furniture for housing and pets. But when its things that you buy with real cash, use on your character, and now your character can do things other characters cannot with a basic sub or just free level play, then its an enhancement. Dunno how you dont see this. If it was truly items in the cash shop that didnt alter gameplay, it would be all fluff in there.
No one isnt doubting its a proven success, certainly not me. Its one of the reasons Im against it. I dont want more people paying more for the same normal content (free play always costs more) I dont want to experience the kind of bad communities that this type of shop brings.
No, Im been gaming for about 7 years. I wouldnt pay more for "extra"plat. If you could just buy everything you wanted in the game... say some super AAA item, then wheres the challenge? Wheres the fun knowing youll kill mobs 10 levels that your not supposed to, then bragging in guild or chat saying "woohoo! just critted for 654654645 dmg!" For me personally, no. I wouldnt pay for that. If i was gonna do that, then why level at all? Just hire a leveler, make my 75 and I can still brag because after all, I spent money to get it.
I havent bashed SoE once in this thread. I dont know Smed. I dont care how nice his house/life is from revenue. All I care about is good gameplay. And with cashshop models, you ~ DO. NOT.GET.THAT. EVER. Name a cash shop game that can rival WoW, FFXI, EQ2, EVE, or any of the real MMOs.
I hope Im right when I say most real US gamers would rather quit and play consoles than support this model, from SoE or anyone. Try them out for yourself, see if you can get to at least HALF the level they max at before you either go: completely broke, or completely mental trying to have fun in there. Then when the first cashshop crap fails, the rest of them realize that culturally, this just will not fly.
Or maybe, just one company will stay with the spirit of MMO origins and make a truly awesome game and repeat WoW all over again. I tell you what, I wont bash the next WoW; Ill join right in and pay that monthly fee knowing it keeps these models away.
It will only take 1 court case of a mom taking an MMO company to court because her child spend 1000$ on virtual items. The ball will start rolling. They're items that don't have a value, you can't sell thin air, because that's what it is.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
Well, let SOE go their direction. It'll be the end of their company as we know it. The cheap gimmick that is Item Shops will fail in the next coming years. The sooner the better because we might be able to see at least quality games come out again.
But let us break down how Silkroad, Maple Story, etc make their profits:
Bandwidth: You need to cutdown on bandwidth to maximize non-guaranteed money. Therefore you must cut out added features that could increase overall bandwidth. Therefore, anything along the lines of crafting as we know it in the western mmos has to be stripped out or stripped down drastically. That is why you have cheap immitations, at best, for crafting systems in the item shop mmo. You can get some really funky like lag happening in these games and usually that is due to bandwidth cutting methods.
Content: The content in these games are massively thin and for a reason. Content is the biggest money guzzler in game development. With a subscription based model and a solid product you know you'll eventually make your money back but with a Item Shop you don't know what you'll make back. Therefore, you cut costs so MMO development goes from $10, $20, $30 million or more down to $1 to $5 million if that. For a Western MMO developer they must outsource their artwork to Asia and Japan. This leads to a very easily recognized and tired anime like art style.
Customer Service: These types of games are cheap, quick and meant to maximize profit from the item shop as fast as possible. Therefore, important things like Customer Service, are stripped to the barebone and often times lead by corrupt player GMs or Devs who have no business being customer service representatives, who form friendships, and then ultimately create an atmosphere of favoritism.
First Impression: For many this is true because I've asked. The first impression I get, before even playing these games (accurate 90% of the time) is that the game will be cheap, quick level 20 or 30, then insain grind the rest of the way. It'll have an apply a stone to upgrade your weapon +1 and be limited to a handful of classes usually with only either male or female as an option for that class. You know the world will be insainly small, zoned and extremely cramped with tons of griefing (especially when its first released).
Moving On: Many MANY people move on from these games and you're usually left with a handful of higher levels who are griefer, elitists who spent thousands of dollars to build their character up. These people and the trickle of income from the people who recognize the game as crap eventually catch up to the low budget and then turn a %10 to %50 profit throughout the lifespan of the game ( Spending $1 million to get $1.5 million back even after 2 - 3 years isn't to bad for many medium/small businesses). What you fail to realize is this model works shortterm but these types of games are quickfixes and people will catch on to this in a few years. If this type of game dominates the market then subscription based models, WHO WILL suffer because of the gimmick f2p claims, will be all but wiped out.
How do I know all this? I've played some of the earliest of these types of games: Thang Online, Kal Online and several others like Supreme Destiny, Silkroad Online when it was relatively new, and so forth. I burnt out on those within a year to the point where I don't care to try another one because I know exactly what it is. Around 90%+ people I've talked with also felt this way.
The traditional MMO like EQ, WoW, LoTRO or even to some extent AC, AC2 etc it took me a good number of years to burn out on these. This holds true for many people. I want to also note that relatively newer MMO players also spoke about how fast they burn out on those f2p and how they ultimately enjoy the subscription based games much more because they have more depth and are alot funner and cost alot less.
F2P/Item Shop MMOs are a fad that'll come and go fairly quickly. I'm hoping I'm wrong that they will hurt the subscription based MMOs to severely that we no longer get big budget subscription based MMOs. Unfortunately, history shows that a fad often times kills something that is better.
It will only take 1 court case of a mom taking an MMO company to court because her child spend 1000$ on virtual items. The ball will start rolling. They're items that don't have a value, you can't sell thin air, because that's what it is.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
As far as I know parents are responsible for the fees allocated on their phone lines. There may be exceptions but I am pretty sure that in general, any charges incurred by a minor in which a parent had to give legal consent of use and supervision prior to the child incurring said charges is solely the responsibility of the person who is under contractual obligation and thus must pay all damages.
Although as previously stated, exceptions may exist, the fact is, negligence of ones responsibilities as a parent is not "usually" a defence against anything, but rather useful evidence to the contrary, especially when one has made contractual obligations to uphold said responsibilities.
It will only take 1 court case of a mom taking an MMO company to court because her child spend 1000$ on virtual items. The ball will start rolling. They're items that don't have a value, you can't sell thin air, because that's what it is.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
As far as I know parents are responsible for the fees allocated on their phone lines. There may be exceptions but I am pretty sure that in general, any charges incurred by a minor in which a parent had to give legal consent of use and supervision prior to the child incurring said charges is solely the responsibility of the person who is under contractual obligation and thus must pay all damages.
Although as previously stated, exceptions may exist, the fact is, negligence of ones responsibilities as a parent is not "usually" a defence against anything, but rather useful evidence to the contrary, especially when one has made contractual obligations to uphold said responsibilities.
I'm not even sure how this paticular discussion could get started.
Even on Station Exchange last I checked.. you can't just log into an account and buy items. You have to have access to certain information..
Take the SOE account page as an example. It will now store you credit card information but in order to process a new charge (say you hit cancel every month as some people do so that if they decide to take a break they don't get charged..) you need the verifiction code off the back of the card.
This requires DIRECT access to the billing source or the information about it.
When I worked at Chips and Bits in Rochester Vermont we sold computer and console games over the phone (ah the days of mail order). We had one mother who specificly stated that her son had her permission to use her credit card. She insisted that a note be placed ON the account so that she wouldn't have to be bothered.
A month or so later and there is $3,000 worth of charges.... she calls up and the CS guy explains that her son had ordered a lot of games. She goes into sons room find a huge pile of games under his bed. No doubt kills son and calls back.
We had NO legal obligation in the matter but they did take the games back as "used" and instead of giving her a trade in credit towards new games... refunded that amount.
But they didn't have to do it.
If someone a child.. logs into an account and has the information needed to process a charge.. the fault and liability are going to be on ONE end... the parents.
Even assuming that they allowed ALL credit information to be stored... you would think there would be a parental control for this.
The only way what you described could happen.. is for a child to have access to an account AND the billing information... that is NOT SOE's problem... as much as I dislike them... they would not have any fault the way you describe this (talking to the first person in the quote).
I love how people try to turn everything smedley says into something it's not.He is not the founder of this idea ,nor should he be the scapegoat.
For one thing,everything he says is already been done on much larger scales.Korea is the number one gaming area in the world by a LARGE margin,nothing this side of the hemisphere is even close.Everything well 95% of there games are all item malls.There massive success in making money through this route is an easy assumption that smedley makes,yet people here try to call him an idiot ..rflmao.
To further add to the lame smedley bashers is the fact that WOW a game that is P2P also has the largest RMT activity of any P2P game,so how is there any difference if a game makes it legit,or the players do it anyhow?Where is all the WOW bashers or the blizzard bashers? for feeding this industry that you people right now are complaining about?I see people quick to jump on SMED but yet it's ok for the WOW players or any RMT activity outside of SMED's domain?This is the picture i am drawing as the only complaining is towards smed and he is by no way the founder of this idea.The YANTIS corp and korea were in this ions before SMED even thought of it.
An arguement in either direction is just being two faced.You can't call one guy an idiot for predicting it in the future,when YOU the players are already doing it it now in the present.
Do not get me wrong as i for one can't stand item malls,as these games are not games anymore.They are designed in a way that playing them for free is a total joke.They are designed so that using the item mall brings the game back to a normal level that a P2P game would be.The BIG difference is that item mall games are designed to draw out MORE money than any P2P game would draw from a 15 dollar a mnth sub.In essence item mall games put the GRIND back into GRIND but on a larger scale.
The only reason i would call him an idiot is because he is making a prediction on something that is already in full swing lol,that's like predicting snowfall when it's snowing out,but then the SMED haters would come on and call him an idiot for saying it's going to snow,when it's already snowing out LMAO.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well, let SOE go their direction. It'll be the end of their company as we know it. The cheap gimmick that is Item Shops will fail in the next coming years. The sooner the better because we might be able to see at least quality games come out again. But let us break down how Silkroad, Maple Story, etc make their profits: Bandwidth: You need to cutdown on bandwidth to maximize non-guaranteed money. Therefore you must cut out added features that could increase overall bandwidth. Therefore, anything along the lines of crafting as we know it in the western mmos has to be stripped out or stripped down drastically. That is why you have cheap immitations, at best, for crafting systems in the item shop mmo. You can get some really funky like lag happening in these games and usually that is due to bandwidth cutting methods. Content: The content in these games are massively thin and for a reason. Content is the biggest money guzzler in game development. With a subscription based model and a solid product you know you'll eventually make your money back but with a Item Shop you don't know what you'll make back. Therefore, you cut costs so MMO development goes from $10, $20, $30 million or more down to $1 to $5 million if that. For a Western MMO developer they must outsource their artwork to Asia and Japan. This leads to a very easily recognized and tired anime like art style. Customer Service: These types of games are cheap, quick and meant to maximize profit from the item shop as fast as possible. Therefore, important things like Customer Service, are stripped to the barebone and often times lead by corrupt player GMs or Devs who have no business being customer service representatives, who form friendships, and then ultimately create an atmosphere of favoritism. First Impression: For many this is true because I've asked. The first impression I get, before even playing these games (accurate 90% of the time) is that the game will be cheap, quick level 20 or 30, then insain grind the rest of the way. It'll have an apply a stone to upgrade your weapon +1 and be limited to a handful of classes usually with only either male or female as an option for that class. You know the world will be insainly small, zoned and extremely cramped with tons of griefing (especially when its first released). Moving On: Many MANY people move on from these games and you're usually left with a handful of higher levels who are griefer, elitists who spent thousands of dollars to build their character up. These people and the trickle of income from the people who recognize the game as crap eventually catch up to the low budget and then turn a %10 to %50 profit throughout the lifespan of the game ( Spending $1 million to get $1.5 million back even after 2 - 3 years isn't to bad for many medium/small businesses). What you fail to realize is this model works shortterm but these types of games are quickfixes and people will catch on to this in a few years. If this type of game dominates the market then subscription based models, WHO WILL suffer because of the gimmick f2p claims, will be all but wiped out. How do I know all this? I've played some of the earliest of these types of games: Thang Online, Kal Online and several others like Supreme Destiny, Silkroad Online when it was relatively new, and so forth. I burnt out on those within a year to the point where I don't care to try another one because I know exactly what it is. Around 90%+ people I've talked with also felt this way. The traditional MMO like EQ, WoW, LoTRO or even to some extent AC, AC2 etc it took me a good number of years to burn out on these. This holds true for many people. I want to also note that relatively newer MMO players also spoke about how fast they burn out on those f2p and how they ultimately enjoy the subscription based games much more because they have more depth and are alot funner and cost alot less. F2P/Item Shop MMOs are a fad that'll come and go fairly quickly. I'm hoping I'm wrong that they will hurt the subscription based MMOs to severely that we no longer get big budget subscription based MMOs. Unfortunately, history shows that a fad often times kills something that is better.
And now to completely ruin your stereotype, 2 words for you: Perfect World. Content development in micro transaction mmorpg's is just as busy as in normal mmorpg's. The business model has little effect on the actual content of the game. the "grind" in these games is no worse then in p2p games like Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online, both p2p games.
You're clearly wrong about this being a fad, The model is already used by many, many mmorpg's and more and more mmo's are using the model. It's here to stay, get used to it.
Many people leave those games quickly? Have you even done on second of research on this subject? Go to mmosite, type in new server to see the new server announcements and see which games are the ones who have to keep adding new servers because of an increase in players? Let me spoil it for you: It sure isn't the p2p ones.
Comments
Because nobody ever bothered to check on all those companies selling virtual items, right? You're grasping at straws here. Selling virtual content has NEVER been against the law .
Jesus christ, can you look things up before you spew nonsense.
LoN for items is illegal in 7 US states and in europe atm, that's why people were upset they couldn't join. It falls under gambling legislation.
And we were talking about virtual trading here, items and currencies. Not just content, don't change the discussion.
I'm done with your discussion, you obviously have some self interest involved.
Shocking news: Items and currencies IS content. Maybe you should look things up before you spew nonsense, I'll say it again, Buying Virtual content is NOT illegal, if they were then one of the hundreds of item shop mmo's would be sued to oblivion by now, but it's not happening, why? Because you don't know what the heck you're talking about, buying and selling virtual content is not against the law, deal with it. If you are indeed refering to Legends of Norrath the Trading Card Game then you make some very comparissons as it has nothing to do with an actual item shop as a card game is not an mmorpg.
Love your logic thoug. "You try to bring the facts to the table and disagree with my wild assumptions!? wow, you must have some self interest". Damn candygirl6, you caught me, it's all over now.
In my opinion, like it or not item mall sales are here to stay and i think it will grow side by side with subscription method of payment. Some people prefer item malls instead of subscription while some like subscription more than item malls. But one thing is for sure, the choice is out there for the community and I think it's wonderful we HAVE a CHOICE on which subsciption method the players can use.
The only reason why Smed is saying this is because there is NO SOE MMORPG worth paying $15 a month for.
I'm also AGAINST selling in-game items to the highest bidder. I mean, purchasing your way to power is just silly. Everybody should just play the same game and with one flat monthly fee for IMPROVING the GAME, adding CONTENT and not just REVAMPS.
Smed just doesn't know how to operate a fanbase.
First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
Unaware of the Jestor?
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First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
It must all be a big conspiracy!
maskedweasel,
excellent rebuttal to Hellmarauder's post. Hes an intelligent guy, but I think hes off base and not in-touch with what US and other country gamers want, as opposed to what 2/3rds of the world wants. By making a statement that since the majority of the world' population is there, they must know something we dont.
So I guess that means famine, dictatorship, poverty, caste structures in society, underdeveloped infrastructures and squalor are the way to go too. Hmm.. I think they can have the monopoly on that. Plus, not to sound xenophobic, but I REALLY dont want to eat rice 3x a day just because most of the world does, following his logic. Ill stick with the spaghetti and pastas, fried chicken, hot dogs, real hamburgers, salad bars, FRESH milk, and desserts from all over.
As far as gaming, hes obviously a f2p fan, no crime there. If you like it fine. But you know, if your girlfriend has pretty eyes, but a jacked up face, huge feet, bad breath, and no personality.. dont expect me to compliment her on anything other than her eyes, because shes really a beast. Ill have to stay honest and call the beast what it is. And these cash shop games are nothing but underdeveloped, light story, long drawn out exp affairs designed to have you spend more OVERALL than just $20 bucks a month. If you take the average asian player, and ask him what he really spends overall, youll be hella-suprised to find, he spends MORE than US players each month. Thats because after a certain level, you grind too slow. I mean, not "enjoy the game, see the countryside" slow, I mean "waterboarding" slow. The only way to offset this is to buy experience scrolls to make what would be a normal rate of exp for anything other game, if that.
To sell exp scrolls is an advantage. Why? Other players, esp in a pvp format will outlevel you faster, and pk you. So you level slow, get your butt kicked over and over. Or, a group of cashshop kids level up, and own a certain mob spawn, daring anyone to cross them. To sell special healing pots is unfair. Why? If the crafters in the game cant make the normal items players use, why do Pharmacy? Crafting becomes useless. If they sell mounts that go 3x fast as any regular game mount, or unlimited teleporting or whatever.. that means people will be beating you to spawns or bosses for quests. I remember if FFXI botters owned some spawns.. they literally sat on a mob and told someone if they were waiting for this once a day spawn, they had to pay 1 million gold or they would quick claim it and kill it, just to spite. Or train mobs on you. It was nasty. Imagine letting goldsellers have access to cashshop items most people in the US loathe to spend extra on? Well, youd have what you have now in the azngrinders.. botting and goldsellers owning the joint.
Idk what kind of adults you hang around with, but the adults I do (not geeks) all talk about mmogaming or gaming of some kind; be it Madden, Bioshock, Wii or whatever. Saying most adults are scared to admit it.. falsehood nowadays. I THINK thats what being an adult is; taking responsibility and not caring what people think about what you do, long as you dont hurt anyone. Maybe some people who scared to grow up wont admit it, but most adults dont have a problem admitting it. Look at just about any poll out when they ask age.
"TO MICHAEL!"
First is dig in , Like the news last week about make 50% PS3 games in the next 5 years and Secondly , tilt the board in claiming that you are changing business models.
I am sure the business buyout person at Zapak is getting a headache with every crack pot announcement made by SOE in the past couple of weeks.
It must all be a big conspiracy!
No , Only I am. muhahaha.
Unaware of the Jestor?
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Ok i dont see the problem here.
There are a ton of asian games that have this EXACT model.
Free to play attracts players a dev would not normaly have.Make a good game get them hooked and open up an item mall.SOE id the 1st major developer to try this and make a profit.It is their game and therefore they can do what they want with it.
They SHOULD control the flow of gold and ingame money.Why is not ok for them to do this?
Why is it bad for virtual resellers to do so and not the company that owns it?I dont see it as cheating if the dev in question makes it legal in a item store.
Oh thats right now i see the problem.It is SOE and they should NEVER make a profit on a game they develop.
Yet another thread by another bitter former eq/swg player.Why am i not surprised anymore.
I predict within the next 2 to 3 years about 80% to 90% of all mmo's will be free to play anyway.All it takes is 1 developer to show that it can be done.
What is your physical limit?
Because for years and years this company went on and on about the negative affects virtual sales had on games and the playerbase. When they realized they could make an extra buck off of it, they suddenly changed their tune and act as if they are doing players a favor.
SOE will take this to new extremes and the game will suffer as a result of it. They are never just happy with a game that is turning a profit or has a happy playerbase.
Regardless of how SOE wants to spin thin, in the end all you will get is a game that requires you to spend more that $15 a month to get the same amount of content as you would with a subscription game. Their business model seems to have changed from getting a big subscriber base to getting the most out of each subscriber so they don't need a large base.
I just hope that the players like Opticaleye who all think this is such a swell idea, are the ones who pay the $133 a month they are talking about.
Because experience shows, its those people, who are saavy enough to know its a scam, who say its a "great idea" and spend nothing (freeloaders) and the ignorant who sign on believing the Free-to-Pay hype and end up paying for his, Optical's and a few more people's share. All the while, turdtastic gameplay (at least all the asian grinders are craptastic that Ive checked in the past) is their reward with little or no customer support or GM help.
Id rather pay $14.99/mo and get no support than average $133 a month and get the same non-existent level of support.
Just like all the people who play the lottery... poor, lowerclass, down on their luck people believing all you need is a "Dollar and a dream" and end up spending their entire incomes on slick advertising, thats what this model promises. Not to know it is stupid; not to acknowledge it WHEN you know it is dishonest, Optical.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and put an idea out there that is probably gonna get me flamed.
I couldn't help but think this sounded an awful lot like Smedley is basically giving up on the subscription based market and conceding defeat to Blizzard. I mean isn't he pretty much saying ok, they won the subscription fee market, but there are other markets out there and we plan to beat them to the punch there? Am I reading too much into this? Is my Fanboi showing?
I find item shops annoying. If this is all the industry has to offer, then I won't play.
Hopefully WAR will be another successful monthly sub game, showing devs and publishers this is the way to go.
MMORPG Maker
I think you're spot on. Hopefully WAR will beat the crap out of SOE as well.
Let them go to the free to play item shop model with all the kiddies. Leave the quality monthly subs to the ones that can produce quality and take care of their customers.
Gameloading,
Well, lets address both Auto Assault and Eve Online. First, Auto Assault I never played but from what I gathered and the reason why people disliked it so much is because they felt it was nothing more than Everquest on Wheels. Having said that your game has to be both fun and innovative. If you release a pile of dung that spreads in a new way it is still a pile of dung.
Now, Eve Online, which is over 170kish subscriptions was an indie development and grew that high over the years. For some, that game is the best game of its type and best MMO ever created. Eve Online has a higher subscription total than Everquest, Everquest 2 (if numbers are correct we know of) and it might even be higher than or around LoTRO numbers. Combined, AC and AC2 at their peaks in subscriptions are lower than Eve Online.
I played Eve Online and it wasn't my cup of tea. It is a niche game but for being a niche game, something new and innovative, approaching 200k subscriptions is very successful and shows that yes innovation can be good.
Now you ask for evidence and the evidence will be there sooner than you think. The statistical evidence isn't available yet because the f2p/item shop market is relatively young. You also point to 45 million and what not for games like Maple Story but you fail to realize is that everyone and their mother signs up for these games and that they make no where near the amount of money that even Everquest 2, Eve Online or LoTRO brings in on a monthly basis.
Smedley's interview showed me how truly ignorant he is. To me, it sounds as if he thinks he knows the Holy Grail template for the f2p/item shop market. Trust me he does not know this because I've done the research myself, contrary to what you think. In the end you'll be realizing how wrong you and how wrong this ignorant executive are.
splat
Hmm i never said i thought the idea was "swell".
Why is it such an issue for ANY company to offer virtual items if they are the devs of the game?
Im not hyping it by any means BUT it is a PROVEN success in most free to pay games.
Personally no i cant afford to play that way and yes i too would rather pay 14 hell id pay 25 a month if i thought a game was worth it.
All this does is cut out the middleman and the gold farmers.
Let me ask a question:Would you pay MORE than $14.99 a month if their were benefits?Lets say you get 10 plat for every month that you pay up front for?Or how about you pay $25 a month to get no xp debt?
Im pretty sure most people would.
Let me state in no uncertain terms that i never would buy anything in an item mall but i have no problem with a developer controlling most every aspect of a game.It is THEIR game and therefore all profit should be for the developers.
I just think since its SOE everyone jumps on board to bash the company.I seriously doubt the OP would ever say the same things about Blizzard if they were to open up an item mall.
Item malls are coming in the next 2 to 3 years get used to it.
I
What is your physical limit?
It might take one court case to get the ball rolling but I doubt very much that the one you exemplify would be it. When the first point in the EULA states that "Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child" It may be difficult to start a court case having already agreed to such a legality.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Didnt quote you to say swell, but its obvious you don't have a problem with this idea other than "its their game."
The reason why most US gamers think this is an issue, is because most US gamers think that when you buy anything in these cash shops, its cheating. Pure and simple. Thats why its an issue. When games put cashshops in, it changes the playing field no matter how much its masked as "non-essential" items or "not game changing". It is truly was, all theyd sell would be mainly costumes and furniture for housing and pets. But when its things that you buy with real cash, use on your character, and now your character can do things other characters cannot with a basic sub or just free level play, then its an enhancement. Dunno how you dont see this. If it was truly items in the cash shop that didnt alter gameplay, it would be all fluff in there.
No one isnt doubting its a proven success, certainly not me. Its one of the reasons Im against it. I dont want more people paying more for the same normal content (free play always costs more) I dont want to experience the kind of bad communities that this type of shop brings.
No, Im been gaming for about 7 years. I wouldnt pay more for "extra"plat. If you could just buy everything you wanted in the game... say some super AAA item, then wheres the challenge? Wheres the fun knowing youll kill mobs 10 levels that your not supposed to, then bragging in guild or chat saying "woohoo! just critted for 654654645 dmg!" For me personally, no. I wouldnt pay for that. If i was gonna do that, then why level at all? Just hire a leveler, make my 75 and I can still brag because after all, I spent money to get it.
I havent bashed SoE once in this thread. I dont know Smed. I dont care how nice his house/life is from revenue. All I care about is good gameplay. And with cashshop models, you ~ DO. NOT.GET.THAT. EVER. Name a cash shop game that can rival WoW, FFXI, EQ2, EVE, or any of the real MMOs.
I hope Im right when I say most real US gamers would rather quit and play consoles than support this model, from SoE or anyone. Try them out for yourself, see if you can get to at least HALF the level they max at before you either go: completely broke, or completely mental trying to have fun in there. Then when the first cashshop crap fails, the rest of them realize that culturally, this just will not fly.
Or maybe, just one company will stay with the spirit of MMO origins and make a truly awesome game and repeat WoW all over again. I tell you what, I wont bash the next WoW; Ill join right in and pay that monthly fee knowing it keeps these models away.
"TO MICHAEL!"
It might take one court case to get the ball rolling but I doubt very much that the one you exemplify would be it. When the first point in the EULA states that "Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child" It may be difficult to start a court case having already agreed to such a legality.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
Well, let SOE go their direction. It'll be the end of their company as we know it. The cheap gimmick that is Item Shops will fail in the next coming years. The sooner the better because we might be able to see at least quality games come out again.
But let us break down how Silkroad, Maple Story, etc make their profits:
Bandwidth: You need to cutdown on bandwidth to maximize non-guaranteed money. Therefore you must cut out added features that could increase overall bandwidth. Therefore, anything along the lines of crafting as we know it in the western mmos has to be stripped out or stripped down drastically. That is why you have cheap immitations, at best, for crafting systems in the item shop mmo. You can get some really funky like lag happening in these games and usually that is due to bandwidth cutting methods.
Content: The content in these games are massively thin and for a reason. Content is the biggest money guzzler in game development. With a subscription based model and a solid product you know you'll eventually make your money back but with a Item Shop you don't know what you'll make back. Therefore, you cut costs so MMO development goes from $10, $20, $30 million or more down to $1 to $5 million if that. For a Western MMO developer they must outsource their artwork to Asia and Japan. This leads to a very easily recognized and tired anime like art style.
Customer Service: These types of games are cheap, quick and meant to maximize profit from the item shop as fast as possible. Therefore, important things like Customer Service, are stripped to the barebone and often times lead by corrupt player GMs or Devs who have no business being customer service representatives, who form friendships, and then ultimately create an atmosphere of favoritism.
First Impression: For many this is true because I've asked. The first impression I get, before even playing these games (accurate 90% of the time) is that the game will be cheap, quick level 20 or 30, then insain grind the rest of the way. It'll have an apply a stone to upgrade your weapon +1 and be limited to a handful of classes usually with only either male or female as an option for that class. You know the world will be insainly small, zoned and extremely cramped with tons of griefing (especially when its first released).
Moving On: Many MANY people move on from these games and you're usually left with a handful of higher levels who are griefer, elitists who spent thousands of dollars to build their character up. These people and the trickle of income from the people who recognize the game as crap eventually catch up to the low budget and then turn a %10 to %50 profit throughout the lifespan of the game ( Spending $1 million to get $1.5 million back even after 2 - 3 years isn't to bad for many medium/small businesses). What you fail to realize is this model works shortterm but these types of games are quickfixes and people will catch on to this in a few years. If this type of game dominates the market then subscription based models, WHO WILL suffer because of the gimmick f2p claims, will be all but wiped out.
How do I know all this? I've played some of the earliest of these types of games: Thang Online, Kal Online and several others like Supreme Destiny, Silkroad Online when it was relatively new, and so forth. I burnt out on those within a year to the point where I don't care to try another one because I know exactly what it is. Around 90%+ people I've talked with also felt this way.
The traditional MMO like EQ, WoW, LoTRO or even to some extent AC, AC2 etc it took me a good number of years to burn out on these. This holds true for many people. I want to also note that relatively newer MMO players also spoke about how fast they burn out on those f2p and how they ultimately enjoy the subscription based games much more because they have more depth and are alot funner and cost alot less.
F2P/Item Shop MMOs are a fad that'll come and go fairly quickly. I'm hoping I'm wrong that they will hurt the subscription based MMOs to severely that we no longer get big budget subscription based MMOs. Unfortunately, history shows that a fad often times kills something that is better.
splat
It might take one court case to get the ball rolling but I doubt very much that the one you exemplify would be it. When the first point in the EULA states that "Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child" It may be difficult to start a court case having already agreed to such a legality.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
As far as I know parents are responsible for the fees allocated on their phone lines. There may be exceptions but I am pretty sure that in general, any charges incurred by a minor in which a parent had to give legal consent of use and supervision prior to the child incurring said charges is solely the responsibility of the person who is under contractual obligation and thus must pay all damages.
Although as previously stated, exceptions may exist, the fact is, negligence of ones responsibilities as a parent is not "usually" a defence against anything, but rather useful evidence to the contrary, especially when one has made contractual obligations to uphold said responsibilities.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
It might take one court case to get the ball rolling but I doubt very much that the one you exemplify would be it. When the first point in the EULA states that "Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child" It may be difficult to start a court case having already agreed to such a legality.
As for the item mall model working, GameLoading is perfectly right, it already is. It is by far the most popular model in Asia at the moment and is actually quite successful abroad as well.
The argument isn't in regards to its validity or legality, as these are both moot as it is both valid and legal but rather whether it as useful in bringing in revenue as the Pay 2 Play model is. In this it is very dependant on the game structure, as a game which would already attract millions of players who are willing to pay monthly may not need such a model and might actually lose revenue by doing so. However, it is very difficult to say whether one model will work better than another, because while one seeks to maximize the potential client base in the hopes of a percentage buying items through a virtual store the other looks to a secure monthly surplus being created at the cost of those who wish not to pay per month. Both have positives and negatives and for that reason it would probably be best served to come up with a combinative model, the best of both worlds as it were; Difficult to balance, but probably immensely successful if implemented correctly.
I think would would end up getting put in a similar place as children who call phone sex lines. Which is minors can't be helf liable for using their parents credit card. As much as the mmo reseller would love to push it, they would likely have to back down when pushed comes to shove.
As far as I know parents are responsible for the fees allocated on their phone lines. There may be exceptions but I am pretty sure that in general, any charges incurred by a minor in which a parent had to give legal consent of use and supervision prior to the child incurring said charges is solely the responsibility of the person who is under contractual obligation and thus must pay all damages.
Although as previously stated, exceptions may exist, the fact is, negligence of ones responsibilities as a parent is not "usually" a defence against anything, but rather useful evidence to the contrary, especially when one has made contractual obligations to uphold said responsibilities.
I'm not even sure how this paticular discussion could get started.
Even on Station Exchange last I checked.. you can't just log into an account and buy items. You have to have access to certain information..
Take the SOE account page as an example. It will now store you credit card information but in order to process a new charge (say you hit cancel every month as some people do so that if they decide to take a break they don't get charged..) you need the verifiction code off the back of the card.
This requires DIRECT access to the billing source or the information about it.
When I worked at Chips and Bits in Rochester Vermont we sold computer and console games over the phone (ah the days of mail order). We had one mother who specificly stated that her son had her permission to use her credit card. She insisted that a note be placed ON the account so that she wouldn't have to be bothered.
A month or so later and there is $3,000 worth of charges.... she calls up and the CS guy explains that her son had ordered a lot of games. She goes into sons room find a huge pile of games under his bed. No doubt kills son and calls back.
We had NO legal obligation in the matter but they did take the games back as "used" and instead of giving her a trade in credit towards new games... refunded that amount.
But they didn't have to do it.
If someone a child.. logs into an account and has the information needed to process a charge.. the fault and liability are going to be on ONE end... the parents.
Even assuming that they allowed ALL credit information to be stored... you would think there would be a parental control for this.
The only way what you described could happen.. is for a child to have access to an account AND the billing information... that is NOT SOE's problem... as much as I dislike them... they would not have any fault the way you describe this (talking to the first person in the quote).
Nice post Dethnoble,
Think you said it all very well.
Im just not gonna quote that whole text. You write as much as I do. :P
"TO MICHAEL!"
I love how people try to turn everything smedley says into something it's not.He is not the founder of this idea ,nor should he be the scapegoat.
For one thing,everything he says is already been done on much larger scales.Korea is the number one gaming area in the world by a LARGE margin,nothing this side of the hemisphere is even close.Everything well 95% of there games are all item malls.There massive success in making money through this route is an easy assumption that smedley makes,yet people here try to call him an idiot ..rflmao.
To further add to the lame smedley bashers is the fact that WOW a game that is P2P also has the largest RMT activity of any P2P game,so how is there any difference if a game makes it legit,or the players do it anyhow?Where is all the WOW bashers or the blizzard bashers? for feeding this industry that you people right now are complaining about?I see people quick to jump on SMED but yet it's ok for the WOW players or any RMT activity outside of SMED's domain?This is the picture i am drawing as the only complaining is towards smed and he is by no way the founder of this idea.The YANTIS corp and korea were in this ions before SMED even thought of it.
An arguement in either direction is just being two faced.You can't call one guy an idiot for predicting it in the future,when YOU the players are already doing it it now in the present.
Do not get me wrong as i for one can't stand item malls,as these games are not games anymore.They are designed in a way that playing them for free is a total joke.They are designed so that using the item mall brings the game back to a normal level that a P2P game would be.The BIG difference is that item mall games are designed to draw out MORE money than any P2P game would draw from a 15 dollar a mnth sub.In essence item mall games put the GRIND back into GRIND but on a larger scale.
The only reason i would call him an idiot is because he is making a prediction on something that is already in full swing lol,that's like predicting snowfall when it's snowing out,but then the SMED haters would come on and call him an idiot for saying it's going to snow,when it's already snowing out LMAO.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The real question I have to pose is this: if you fix the in-game economy as that RMT is meaningless would RMT matter?
-- Brede
And now to completely ruin your stereotype, 2 words for you: Perfect World. Content development in micro transaction mmorpg's is just as busy as in normal mmorpg's. The business model has little effect on the actual content of the game. the "grind" in these games is no worse then in p2p games like Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online, both p2p games.
You're clearly wrong about this being a fad, The model is already used by many, many mmorpg's and more and more mmo's are using the model. It's here to stay, get used to it.
Many people leave those games quickly? Have you even done on second of research on this subject? Go to mmosite, type in new server to see the new server announcements and see which games are the ones who have to keep adding new servers because of an increase in players? Let me spoil it for you: It sure isn't the p2p ones.