The monthly fee payment model will disappear in a couple years.
Inflation will drive up the normal monthly fee price up to about $20 which most will not consider paying(I remember when the norm price went up from $10 to $15, oh what a fun time that was).
The Free to Play but with Item Mall payment model will get more people playing whichs means a higher chance of people paying. Also, no one seems to notice when they spend $100 a month on the Item Malls.
The scenario described by Popinjay is unfortunately not a gross generalization. I've had the exact situation happen to me in pretty much every single Asian made Item Mall MMO I've ever played. The most recent being Dream of Mirror Online. I really liked DoMO but the insane grind that could only be diminished if you buy the EXP scrolls killed the game for me at level 20.
Many of you may call him stupid or worse but he is right. Luring people in with Free then nickel and diming them death is the way all MMOs are headed.
he just said " Many of you may call him stupid or worse but he is right. Luring people in with Free then nickel and diming them death is the way all MMOs are headed."
Muahaha SOE has been Nickel and dimeing their customers forever - 14 + expansions for EQ , 4+ for EQ2 and 3+ for SWG . Comparing 1+ ( with one incoming) for WoW. Trust me , I am sure that Smed will make the players hit the velvet rope monthly in this new business model as well as selling items.
I'm going to hate myself for saying this...but....
I agree.
The F2P model is one that I feel should be considered very strongly. The real issue in that ideal is inside making such a model work so that it does not ever really force you to spend more than 15 a month ever...and such that doing so does not put you above anyone in a meaningful way.
I'm all for things like increased XP gains, and increased money drops, as a result of a cash shop. Neither of these really detract from the game in any way but to give the buyers a little easier time playing. If the game model is still very easy and fun WITHOUT the items, I see no reason the model should fail. The problem alot of current F2P games run into is that they design the game to really hurt a player who has not purchased these things. The XP to level requirements are usually SUPER high and some games even require a cash shop item to even guarantee you can log in like everyone else. Those models are VERY poor, and are a detriment to gaming in any form.
But there are plenty of consumer friendly ways to approach the ideal. IN game housing or in game fortresses could be a thing paid for, neither of which should ever reach above the cost of normal monthly subs. They would add something nice to a game that a player might want to pay for, but not something which would give the player an edge numerically over someone else. Costumes and fancy mounts would be another. IN general, both cosmetic and time reducing items are very tame and would work well.
Flyff is a pretty good game to look at for this. The vast majority of their Cash Shop is purely cosmetic. The VERY few statistic items do little more than raise a stat by ONE. Otherwise, its nothing but XP gain items and mild buff items which aren't required at all...and serve to simplify a night or so of gaming for a small price.
Now the problem with the model is that it has not yet been found to pay enough to give the company funding to develop the game as well as a pure sub model has. But in the right hands, with the right mixture, I think someone could very well pull this off and change how we view these games as a whole.
If mmo's go to the free to play model, they would lose money from me because I like the low to mid level in a game. I would just hop from game to game playing for free, and when it became impossible to advance without buying stuff I would just move on to the next game.
I could see some people going into debt playing mmo's with the item shop model. MMO addiction could end up being analogous to or worse than gambling addiction. Then mmo addiction would really become a psychiatric diagnosis and politicians would jump on the band wagon and put sin taxes on mmo's.
He just said "I could see some people going into debt playing mmo's with the item shop model. MMO addiction could end up being analogous to or worse than gambling addiction. Then mmo addiction would really become a psychiatric diagnosis and politicians would jump on the band wagon and put sin taxes on mmo's. "
I have to agree, Imagine the Credit card debt for virtual items, scary but Smedly wouldn't want it any other way.
On the whole , I had more respect for SOE when they played hardball with Gold and items sellers , now they want to build their own pirate league.
Itemshops have been very successful, it's no surprise that a company like SOE wants to use it for certain games. With MMORPG's becomming more expensive to develop yet subscribtions for the average non - WoW MMORPG dropping, alternatives need to be found.
and Candygirl, you can't just point at WoW and then say "Look, you're wrong, p2p mmo's do open up to a wider audience!". simply because that's WoW, it's the exception, not the rule.
But now WoW is the standard , not just an exception and it is because SOE so desperately try to meet this new standard they lost more player accounts then if they stand the course.
WoW has set a standard when it comes to quality gameplay, not for numbers of subscribers.
I find the whole item shop concept completely distasteful. I have a long history with MUDs, and I'll have no trouble returning to my roots if/when item shops become the industry standard. My reactions to the whole RMT thing are visceral and emotional, and they're not going to change. Everyone has a line in the sand somewhere, and that's where mine is for MMOs. While MMOs do account for most of my "leisure activity" these days, they're not irreplaceable.
If I were to stop and truly think a moment about how a plethora of micro transaction games would do in the market, with item malls and the whole nine yards, I can't say that it would provide -- for me -- the experience I would associate with "fun" .
Currently as the system goes, it's tough to find that sweet spot between monotonous rubbish, and enjoyable goal-getting. A group of players working toward an end for loot, experience, and achievement. If I could just buy all of what I wanted including those things, what would the purpose of playing be?
Which brings me to the point of PVP, which, in it's essence, those that would really matter in PVP would be the ones that would spend the money for that extra 5% stat bonus or what not, to get the edge over players that wouldn't want to pay.
But if all the items can be gotten in game, and the game is fun without paying anything, then the game won't make any money. Therefore they have to create the game to ensure that people will have to use the item shop to make the game worthwhile, because, if they didn't, in essence it would just be a free game, and we all know SOE (who makes people pay to beta test their games) wouldn't just come out with a free game.
So ultimately the model is made for those that are going to pay for items, levels, gold, instead of just playing and having fun. So why, I ask you would so many companies entertain the idea? Because of greed? Why make only 15 dollars a month when you can make more? Why let them play a game they paid for, and get to see all of the game when instead they have to pay to experience every part of the game?
So, item malls may make it into more well known games, but I assure you, when it comes down to how fun the game is, and the community that plays it, the average player will only be as good and involved as their wallet lets them, and personally, thats not a community I would want to be a part of.
I certainly hope subscription mmorgs will stay strong for now and in the near future. Item shop mmorgs have potential but too easily abused by the devs and would create probs with the addiction thingy, personally I would like to see what a item mall really adds to the game? Is its just the developer that has to gain from this kind of system?
Unless a item mall adds something that clearly benefits the game then im all against it, a well developed mmorg today already has mass profits for the studios. If players are soo inclined of getting an advantage then they always have the RMT option.
I find the whole item shop concept completely distasteful. I have a long history with MUDs, and I'll have no trouble returning to my roots if/when item shops become the industry standard. My reactions to the whole RMT thing are visceral and emotional, and they're not going to change. Everyone has a line in the sand somewhere, and that's where mine is for MMOs. While MMOs do account for most of my "leisure activity" these days, they're not irreplaceable.
I absolutely agree with the above. Besides there are still a lot of good MUDs out there, I'm sure they would be happy for some more people
I really am the last to chime into Smed-bashing... but this man has lost ALL sense of gaming and all managemant instincts. I know F2P is a market, but there are SO many people who prefer to pay via a monthly payment over having to pay for unlock or dubious "items" rather. Its not that SOE is thinking about GW-like games, they want to milk the gamers MORE. As long as you have a monthly fee its easy to control to spendings as player, and you can be certain everything someone else wears (esp. important in PVP) was gained by him PLAYING not PAYING for it. The idea someone has uber gear because he is rich is the LAST thing I want to see in a MMO!
Folks its not that SOE suddenly becomes generous, the want just a legal way to make what goldsellers do, just by themselves, THATS it! Besides, any F2P game shows its FULL of freeloaders and aggro kids, all my experience with GW was horrible community wise.
This man really doesnt get the message! His NGE was wrong, he acquisition of Vanguard was wrong, and so many other decisions. He just has SO lost his instincts into whats going on. Hopefully in the Sony mother company someone realizes it sometimes and pulls the plug and replaces him. I have SO enough of this mans STUPID ramblings and ideas!
If SOE goes into this gaming philosophy I am going to boycott them, I swear, and if theirs are the last MMOs out there. I fully agree with Jenuviel. This is were I too draw the line, while being not MUD player, I can think of many other types of games I can spent my time with, again.
OF COURSE the business is *talking* about such models, and maybe they will try it. But I can tell them all right here and now they will fall flat on their noses with it. Its the same than the foolish copy-protected music download. Once the idea was, to make the music download cheap, but get the income back with limiting the downloaded file to one computer. In reality, it never gained much ground, essentially because people rather pay a bit more but then be certain they can play the music everywhere they want. Most people just prefer a simple 1-time fee which opens all features over a too complictaed system where they are unsure how much they will pay netto in the long run. Just like the limited music download now has failed and most companies are changing that, the itemized payment will fail in the end, if they are really stupid enough to try it out. This is SO NOT the future, lol. But greed likely makes stupid.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm not surprised at all that he supports item shops... the ultimate travesty in gaming - the more $$ you pay, the "better" player you are. And to think about all the hypocrisy regarding gold-sellers... He just wants a cut of their dirty pie. I feel sick.
... as for F2P bit.. don't kid yourself - In corporate SOE's hands these games will be free like extasy tablets given by a drug dealer to middle-school kids are "free".
What astounds me is that so many are surprised by this.
Many of us predicted after the Station Exchange debacle, that if not much noise was made of it and if gamers didn't stand up to it that this exact thing would be the next logical step for SoE. We also predicted that it would not only be SoE games, but that it would affect things industry wide.
Sure enough, here we are a couple years later and SoE is pushing for an industry wide F2P, item mall model to be the norm and pushing for the sub based model to disappear.
Station Exchange started us down this slippery slope. I hope many see the folly of their "hey it doesn't affect my game/server/whatever" and start to let game companies know this isn't acceptable.
I love MMO's but I will not support this type of blatant money gouging of gamers and will no longer play if it becomes the norm. If developers want more revenue, quit making crap, not ready for release games. Quit changing your core gameplay 2 years after release. Quit doing shit like selling an expansion then closing the game down 6 months later.
Players are fickle because you, the developers have made us that way. But I suppose at $133 a month per player with the item mall model, you can afford to lose nearly 9/10 of us "old school" players that still like to actually play our MMO's for $15/month. That 1 player that pays $133 a month replaces our other 9 monthly subs fees and it's less work for you because they'll be less players to appease.
And people wonder why there is such disdain for SoE....with shit like this, how can there be any question?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I'm as frustrated as the next player by some of SOE's moves, but this thread is basically a circle jerk of people who want to bash anything this man does. You killed any discussion that may have occurred here. Good job.
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
I'm as frustrated as the next player by some of SOE's moves, but this thread is basically a circle jerk of people who want to bash anything this man does. You killed any discussion that may have occurred here. Good job.
Hey, thats just not true! I among other have often enough stepped in and defended SOE. I always spoke against blind SOE bashing and blind Smed bashing. Heck, I even tried to defend some of the NGE aspects! But when goldselling becomes the new legal way to fund MMOs... sorry I am out. This man has made just a tad too many crappy decisions and said too many crappy statements now. I really tried to understand and defend SOE so long, but enough is enough.
This idea is indeed a travesty of fair and enjoying gaming and I want no part of this!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm as frustrated as the next player by some of SOE's moves, but this thread is basically a circle jerk of people who want to bash anything this man does. You killed any discussion that may have occurred here. Good job.
No, this thread is about players venting their justifiable frustration over an idiotic idea and attempt to move the MMO genre in an undesireable direction by SOE and Smed.
There is nothing "circle jerk" about this thread.
Are players not supposed to let their dissent be known?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree. I play games to get away from the real world. I don't want to see a credit card swipe station in every single building. I am not attracted to the idea of spending real money for some prestige item.
If I get an epic item, I want to have earned the item. Whether it was through PvP, Raiding, or Crafting to the maximum level, when I get one of the rare items in a game, I want bragging rights. I mean damn it, I put time, effort, and planning into that. Did I enjoy walking into instances in full epics? Hell yeah.
I will never spend a dime in an item shop. I will happily spend $20 a month if the game is good enough. It will have to be a good game - but I will spend it.
Sony wants there MMOs to be itemshops because frankly, they're aiming to become the bargain basement of MMO companies. They'll sit around waiting for an MMO company to fail, buy up their game at firesale prices, then make what they can of itemshops. That's basically their business model at this point - only their trying to charge people $15 a month for NGE and Vanguard.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
I agree. I play games to get away from the real world. I don't want to see a credit card swipe station in every single building. I am not attracted to the idea of spending real money for some prestige item. If I get an epic item, I want to have earned the item. Whether it was through PvP, Raiding, or Crafting to the maximum level, when I get one of the rare items in a game, I want bragging rights. I mean damn it, I put time, effort, and planning into that. Did I enjoy walking into instances in full epics? Hell yeah. I will never spend a dime in an item shop. I will happily spend $20 a month if the game is good enough. It will have to be a good game - but I will spend it. Sony wants there MMOs to be itemshops because frankly, they're aiming to become the bargain basement of MMO companies. They'll sit around waiting for an MMO company to fail, buy up their game at firesale prices, then make what they can of itemshops. That's basically their business model at this point - only their trying to charge people $15 a month for NGE and Vanguard.
in general item shops won't sell any presite weapons or armor, you can buy boosts and fancy items, not equipment.
I really am the last to chime into Smed-bashing... but this man has lost ALL sense of gaming and all managemant instincts. I know F2P is a market, but there are SO many people who prefer to pay via a monthly payment over having to pay for unlock or dubious "items" rather. Its not that SOE is thinking about GW-like games, they want to milk the gamers MORE. As long as you have a monthly fee its easy to control to spendings as player, and you can be certain everything someone else wears (esp. important in PVP) was gained by him PLAYING not PAYING for it. The idea someone has uber gear because he is rich is the LAST thing I want to see in a MMO! Folks its not that SOE suddenly becomes generous, the want just a legal way to make what goldsellers do, just by themselves, THATS it! Besides, any F2P game shows its FULL of freeloaders and aggro kids, all my experience with GW was horrible community wise. This man really doesnt get the message! His NGE was wrong, he acquisition of Vanguard was wrong, and so many other decisions. He just has SO lost his instincts into whats going on. Hopefully in the Sony mother company someone realizes it sometimes and pulls the plug and replaces him. I have SO enough of this mans STUPID ramblings and ideas! If SOE goes into this gaming philosophy I am going to boycott them, I swear, and if theirs are the last MMOs out there. I fully agree with Jenuviel. This is were I too draw the line, while being not MUD player, I can think of many other types of games I can spent my time with, again. OF COURSE the business is *talking* about such models, and maybe they will try it. But I can tell them all right here and now they will fall flat on their noses with it. Its the same than the foolish copy-protected music download. Once the idea was, to make the music download cheap, but get the income back with limiting the downloaded file to one computer. In reality, it never gained much ground, essentially because people rather pay a bit more but then be certain they can play the music everywhere they want. Most people just prefer a simple 1-time fee which opens all features over a too complictaed system where they are unsure how much they will pay netto in the long run. Just like the limited music download now has failed and most companies are changing that, the itemized payment will fail in the end, if they are really stupid enough to try it out. This is SO NOT the future, lol. But greed likely makes stupid.
Actually SOE understands perfectly well, It's you who does not understand. The business is talking about such models? Sorry for asking, but have you been living in a cave? The business is not just talking about such models, the models has been applied and has proven to be successful. In a matter of only a few years the Item shop model has completely dominated asia over monthly fee games,to the point where it's rare to see a monthly fee game and is starting to become more and more popular in the west. Games like Silkroad Online and Maple Story have criminal amounts of players, and people are paying for this, even though it's clear those games are made on a limited budget.
Yulgang Online (Also known as Scions of Fate) has gained over 45 million accounts now. Yulgang gained 15 million accounts from 2006 - 2007. To clarify, that's 1.5 x's World of Warcraft's entire subscriber base went out just to try out Yulgang Online in just one year. Maple Story currently has 67 million accounts created. 67 million! Now, you might argue "that's just accounts created, not current players" and that's correct, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. It just shows how many more people are willing to try a game if it has an item shop instead of a monthly fee. It opens up the games to a much bigger audience. To compare, the original Everquest, you know, the 500k subscriber behemot of the past, only had 2,5 million people try the game in 5 years That means that in one year, Yulgang Online, had 6 times the amount of players trying out the game then Everquest did in five years
Anybody who says the business model will fail is horribly outdated, as the business model has already proven to be successful.
You can love it or you can hate it, but the business model is here to stay. Will monthly fee mmo's die out? Probably not. Despite the overwhelming success in Asia, games like Lineage, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Legend of Mir 2 are still charging a monthly fee because it's difficult to change payment models this far in a game, or even a franchise. But you will see more MMO's, such as the Agency and Free realms by SOE, addapt the business models.
At first I began reading this thread with the instinct to defend Smedley until I read what Smedley had to say about the f2p itemshop method. What this type of business model promotes is very cheap, quick MMO development. The basic breakdown of this business model goes as follow:
Build cheap MMO template
Release First Game/Refine MMO Template and test item Shop
Release Second Game - Item Shop
Release Third Game - Item Shop
And So on.
Now what the supports, like the above poster, fail to realize is these games are all exactly the same as the one before them. We think that LoTRO is a cookie-cutter game based from WoW and WoW is a rehash of EQ etc well you haven't seen nothing yet. These types of games put LoTRO, WoW and EQ all to shame in the cookie-cutter goodness.
For me, I see bad things for the mmo dev companies down the line anyways. Ultimately, there will be that one game that does shine above the rest and it'll be extremely hard to crack it's sway over the rest of the games. Therefore, you'll begin to see less and less MMOs until there is but a handful, if that, of options left. Soon after this you'll have but one or two options left because no one wants to reinvest into another MMO and most other people have left the MMO scene because of the cookie-cutter templates that saturated the market (far more than what you see today).
Ultimately, the Age of MMOs as we know it, dies out and you're left with whatever indie MMO is released at the time with even less budget than a cookie-cutter template MMO.
At first I began reading this thread with the instinct to defend Smedley until I read what Smedley had to say about the f2p itemshop method. What this type of business model promotes is very cheap, quick MMO development. The basic breakdown of this business model goes as follow: Build cheap MMO template Release First Game/Refine MMO Template and test item Shop Release Second Game - Item Shop Release Third Game - Item Shop And So on. Now what the supports, like the above poster, fail to realize is these games are all exactly the same as the one before them. We think that LoTRO is a cookie-cutter game based from WoW and WoW is a rehash of EQ etc well you haven't seen nothing yet. These types of games put LoTRO, WoW and EQ all to shame in the cookie-cutter goodness. For me, I see bad things for the mmo dev companies down the line anyways. Ultimately, there will be that one game that does shine above the rest and it'll be extremely hard to crack it's sway over the rest of the games. Therefore, you'll begin to see less and less MMOs until there is but a handful, if that, of options left. Soon after this you'll have but one or two options left because no one wants to reinvest into another MMO and most other people have left the MMO scene because of the cookie-cutter templates that saturated the market (far more than what you see today). Ultimately, the Age of MMOs as we know it, dies out and you're left with whatever indie MMO is released at the time with even less budget than a cookie-cutter template MMO.
You consider them cookie cutter but that doesn't stop those MMO's from being very successful, so what is your point? What you fail to realize is that cookie cutterness does not stop a game from being successful. Don't fix what isn't broke and mmo players seem to agree with this.
Support this model all you want. In the end it'll be all about who has the most items and your real life status becomes a reflection of your ingame status as well. Real world capitalism reflected in a GAME. And that is just one of many things so wrong with this business model. At least with $14.95 you know you can put effort into the game and compete with others even if they were gold buyers or rich IRL.
What Smedley and the rest of the industry fail to realize is people want a fun, innovative, envolved MMO not some new business model. WoW, a good game IMHO, is the peak of that game style and that is why MMO subscriptions outside of WoW are going down. MMOs need something fresh and innovative (Not necessarily a new non-fantasy genre; fantasy itself isn't the problem).
IMHO people will pay for a less graphic intensive but feature rich MMO if you know how to market it correctly. Extend your closed, limited beta and limit your open-beta to a week if not less. Provide, right off the bat, a free-limited version of the game at release that shows the potential the game has if you purchase the full version/subscription. Make the full version/subscription as accessible as possible with multiple options.
You, and the industry, are generalizing way to many things when you think that the itemshop method is the way to go. It is not and these companies who begin to invest into it will realize that the asian market is already claimed and the North America/Europe market expects something different. Companies like SOE are setting themselves up for their downfall and lets hope that the remaining ones see this before its way to late.
Support this model all you want. In the end it'll be all about who has the most items and your real life status becomes a reflection of your ingame status as well. Real world capitalism reflected in a GAME. And that is just one of many things so wrong with this business model. At least with $14.95 you know you can put effort into the game and compete with others even if they were gold buyers or rich IRL. What Smedley and the rest of the industry fail to realize is people want a fun, innovative, envolved MMO not some new business model. WoW, a good game IMHO, is the peak of that game style and that is why MMO subscriptions outside of WoW are going down. MMOs need something fresh and innovative (Not necessarily a new non-fantasy genre; fantasy itself isn't the problem). IMHO people will pay for a less graphic intensive but feature rich MMO if you know how to market it correctly. Extend your closed, limited beta and limit your open-beta to a week if not less. Provide, right off the bat, a free-limited version of the game at release that shows the potential the game has if you purchase the full version/subscription. Make the full version/subscription as accessible as possible with multiple options. You, and the industry, are generalizing way to many things when you think that the itemshop method is the way to go. It is not and these companies who begin to invest into it will realize that the asian market is already claimed and the North America/Europe market expects something different. Companies like SOE are setting themselves up for their downfall and lets hope that the remaining ones see this before its way to late.
It's clear that you have not done any research on this subject and you're posting is based on assumptions, not actual facts. First of all I do NOT support this model, I simply put down the facts on the table. next, there are very, very few games where amount of real life money you put into the game reflects your ingame status. You can not buy your character level ups, you can not buy your character equipment, All of it has to be found ingame, just like non - paying members.
If people wanted a fresh innovative MMO, then Auto Assault wouldn't have died and EVE would now be a top selling game. Instead, World of Warcraft is the 10 million behemot while EVE has barely 200k subscribers, Lord of the Rings Online is now the 2nd most popular north american mmorpg while Auto Assault had to shut down due to a lack of subscribers. Sword of the New World is struggling with 4 servers while Silkroad Online currently has 30 full servers on the non - asian servers in which it's often nearly impossible to log into.
You can claim "Blabloabla business model will fail" but what evidence do you have for this? Nothing. Meanwhile, games like Maple Story, Silkroad and Scions of fate are proving you wrong.
I find it quite ironic that you're saying that people expect an innovative game when you already scream "failure!" when a new, innovatives business model arrives. Now I know a game and business models are two different things but it just shows how people respond when something new is done.
I really am the last to chime into Smed-bashing... but this man has lost ALL sense of gaming and all managemant instincts. I know F2P is a market, but there are SO many people who prefer to pay via a monthly payment over having to pay for unlock or dubious "items" rather. Its not that SOE is thinking about GW-like games, they want to milk the gamers MORE. As long as you have a monthly fee its easy to control to spendings as player, and you can be certain everything someone else wears (esp. important in PVP) was gained by him PLAYING not PAYING for it. The idea someone has uber gear because he is rich is the LAST thing I want to see in a MMO! Folks its not that SOE suddenly becomes generous, the want just a legal way to make what goldsellers do, just by themselves, THATS it! Besides, any F2P game shows its FULL of freeloaders and aggro kids, all my experience with GW was horrible community wise. This man really doesnt get the message! His NGE was wrong, he acquisition of Vanguard was wrong, and so many other decisions. He just has SO lost his instincts into whats going on. Hopefully in the Sony mother company someone realizes it sometimes and pulls the plug and replaces him. I have SO enough of this mans STUPID ramblings and ideas! If SOE goes into this gaming philosophy I am going to boycott them, I swear, and if theirs are the last MMOs out there. I fully agree with Jenuviel. This is were I too draw the line, while being not MUD player, I can think of many other types of games I can spent my time with, again. OF COURSE the business is *talking* about such models, and maybe they will try it. But I can tell them all right here and now they will fall flat on their noses with it. Its the same than the foolish copy-protected music download. Once the idea was, to make the music download cheap, but get the income back with limiting the downloaded file to one computer. In reality, it never gained much ground, essentially because people rather pay a bit more but then be certain they can play the music everywhere they want. Most people just prefer a simple 1-time fee which opens all features over a too complictaed system where they are unsure how much they will pay netto in the long run. Just like the limited music download now has failed and most companies are changing that, the itemized payment will fail in the end, if they are really stupid enough to try it out. This is SO NOT the future, lol. But greed likely makes stupid.
Actually SOE understands perfectly well, It's you who does not understand. The business is talking about such models? Sorry for asking, but have you been living in a cave? The business is not just talking about such models, the models has been applied and has proven to be successful. In a matter of only a few years the Item shop model has completely dominated asia over monthly fee games,to the point where it's rare to see a monthly fee game and is starting to become more and more popular in the west. Games like Silkroad Online and Maple Story have criminal amounts of players, and people are paying for this, even though it's clear those games are made on a limited budget.
Yulgang Online (Also known as Scions of Fate) has gained over 45 million accounts now. Yulgang gained 15 million accounts from 2006 - 2007. To clarify, that's 1.5 x's World of Warcraft's entire subscriber base went out just to try out Yulgang Online in just one year. Maple Story currently has 67 million accounts created. 67 million! Now, you might argue "that's just accounts created, not current players" and that's correct, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. It just shows how many more people are willing to try a game if it has an item shop instead of a monthly fee. It opens up the games to a much bigger audience. To compare, the original Everquest, you know, the 500k subscriber behemot of the past, only had 2,5 million people try the game in 5 years That means that in one year, Yulgang Online, had 6 times the amount of players trying out the game then Everquest did in five years
Anybody who says the business model will fail is horribly outdated, as the business model has already proven to be successful.
You can love it or you can hate it, but the business model is here to stay. Will monthly fee mmo's die out? Probably not. Despite the overwhelming success in Asia, games like Lineage, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Legend of Mir 2 are still charging a monthly fee because it's difficult to change payment models this far in a game, or even a franchise. But you will see more MMO's, such as the Agency and Free realms by SOE, addapt the business models.
You should know pretty well we talk about entirely different CULTURES of gaming here. Most people who are hooked into WOW, EQ2, VG, LOTRO, CoH and so on never want to swap their MMO gaming experience for lightweight games like Maple Story! Its just hilarious to compare them. I mean, if Smed wants to stop making "classic western style MMOs" and start making browser games and Asia grinders, thats his decision. Its just comparing apples and bananas here.
I am quite confident in my judgement. The MMORPG player we have HERE is something entirely different, with differnt expectations and playstyles.
Mr Smartass Smed and his type has make ENOUGH mistakes in business, so they arent the sacred wisemen in MY book. I dunno what the bean counting manager types THINK is the future, I just say most of the kind of players who play said western style MMOs will NOT be too happy about this, I can guanrantee you. If they want another target audience, well, its their decision, but they aint gonna make it with 95% of their CURRENT players. Its a dubious money trap, where people are lulled to believe they save money and they they are tempted to spent hundrets of dollars because they sting their greed. I find this idea not only stupid but also immoral. Its like placing a heroine vendor in a schoolyard!
Call me old fashioned, but I - coming from a pen and paper background - thought playing a MMORPG was about something ELSE than who has the biggest pocket purse! I dont want RL capitalism in MY fantasy world, no matter what smooth talk any can conjure out of his brains. Make it and you loose me - and I am damn sure a lot of others as well. It would be a sad day when accomplishments are a matter of MONEY and no longer of effort! Thats just a gaming concept I want no part of. End of the story.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
The monthly fee payment model will disappear in a couple years.
Inflation will drive up the normal monthly fee price up to about $20 which most will not consider paying(I remember when the norm price went up from $10 to $15, oh what a fun time that was).
The Free to Play but with Item Mall payment model will get more people playing whichs means a higher chance of people paying. Also, no one seems to notice when they spend $100 a month on the Item Malls.
The scenario described by Popinjay is unfortunately not a gross generalization. I've had the exact situation happen to me in pretty much every single Asian made Item Mall MMO I've ever played. The most recent being Dream of Mirror Online. I really liked DoMO but the insane grind that could only be diminished if you buy the EXP scrolls killed the game for me at level 20.
Many of you may call him stupid or worse but he is right. Luring people in with Free then nickel and diming them death is the way all MMOs are headed.
he just said " Many of you may call him stupid or worse but he is right. Luring people in with Free then nickel and diming them death is the way all MMOs are headed."
Muahaha SOE has been Nickel and dimeing their customers forever - 14 + expansions for EQ , 4+ for EQ2 and 3+ for SWG . Comparing 1+ ( with one incoming) for WoW. Trust me , I am sure that Smed will make the players hit the velvet rope monthly in this new business model as well as selling items.
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I'm going to hate myself for saying this...but....
I agree.
The F2P model is one that I feel should be considered very strongly. The real issue in that ideal is inside making such a model work so that it does not ever really force you to spend more than 15 a month ever...and such that doing so does not put you above anyone in a meaningful way.
I'm all for things like increased XP gains, and increased money drops, as a result of a cash shop. Neither of these really detract from the game in any way but to give the buyers a little easier time playing. If the game model is still very easy and fun WITHOUT the items, I see no reason the model should fail. The problem alot of current F2P games run into is that they design the game to really hurt a player who has not purchased these things. The XP to level requirements are usually SUPER high and some games even require a cash shop item to even guarantee you can log in like everyone else. Those models are VERY poor, and are a detriment to gaming in any form.
But there are plenty of consumer friendly ways to approach the ideal. IN game housing or in game fortresses could be a thing paid for, neither of which should ever reach above the cost of normal monthly subs. They would add something nice to a game that a player might want to pay for, but not something which would give the player an edge numerically over someone else. Costumes and fancy mounts would be another. IN general, both cosmetic and time reducing items are very tame and would work well.
Flyff is a pretty good game to look at for this. The vast majority of their Cash Shop is purely cosmetic. The VERY few statistic items do little more than raise a stat by ONE. Otherwise, its nothing but XP gain items and mild buff items which aren't required at all...and serve to simplify a night or so of gaming for a small price.
Now the problem with the model is that it has not yet been found to pay enough to give the company funding to develop the game as well as a pure sub model has. But in the right hands, with the right mixture, I think someone could very well pull this off and change how we view these games as a whole.
If mmo's go to the free to play model, they would lose money from me because I like the low to mid level in a game. I would just hop from game to game playing for free, and when it became impossible to advance without buying stuff I would just move on to the next game.
I could see some people going into debt playing mmo's with the item shop model. MMO addiction could end up being analogous to or worse than gambling addiction. Then mmo addiction would really become a psychiatric diagnosis and politicians would jump on the band wagon and put sin taxes on mmo's.
He just said "I could see some people going into debt playing mmo's with the item shop model. MMO addiction could end up being analogous to or worse than gambling addiction. Then mmo addiction would really become a psychiatric diagnosis and politicians would jump on the band wagon and put sin taxes on mmo's. "
I have to agree, Imagine the Credit card debt for virtual items, scary but Smedly wouldn't want it any other way.
On the whole , I had more respect for SOE when they played hardball with Gold and items sellers , now they want to build their own pirate league.
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But now WoW is the standard , not just an exception and it is because SOE so desperately try to meet this new standard they lost more player accounts then if they stand the course.
WoW has set a standard when it comes to quality gameplay, not for numbers of subscribers.
I find the whole item shop concept completely distasteful. I have a long history with MUDs, and I'll have no trouble returning to my roots if/when item shops become the industry standard. My reactions to the whole RMT thing are visceral and emotional, and they're not going to change. Everyone has a line in the sand somewhere, and that's where mine is for MMOs. While MMOs do account for most of my "leisure activity" these days, they're not irreplaceable.
If I were to stop and truly think a moment about how a plethora of micro transaction games would do in the market, with item malls and the whole nine yards, I can't say that it would provide -- for me -- the experience I would associate with "fun" .
Currently as the system goes, it's tough to find that sweet spot between monotonous rubbish, and enjoyable goal-getting. A group of players working toward an end for loot, experience, and achievement. If I could just buy all of what I wanted including those things, what would the purpose of playing be?
Which brings me to the point of PVP, which, in it's essence, those that would really matter in PVP would be the ones that would spend the money for that extra 5% stat bonus or what not, to get the edge over players that wouldn't want to pay.
But if all the items can be gotten in game, and the game is fun without paying anything, then the game won't make any money. Therefore they have to create the game to ensure that people will have to use the item shop to make the game worthwhile, because, if they didn't, in essence it would just be a free game, and we all know SOE (who makes people pay to beta test their games) wouldn't just come out with a free game.
So ultimately the model is made for those that are going to pay for items, levels, gold, instead of just playing and having fun. So why, I ask you would so many companies entertain the idea? Because of greed? Why make only 15 dollars a month when you can make more? Why let them play a game they paid for, and get to see all of the game when instead they have to pay to experience every part of the game?
So, item malls may make it into more well known games, but I assure you, when it comes down to how fun the game is, and the community that plays it, the average player will only be as good and involved as their wallet lets them, and personally, thats not a community I would want to be a part of.
I certainly hope subscription mmorgs will stay strong for now and in the near future. Item shop mmorgs have potential but too easily abused by the devs and would create probs with the addiction thingy, personally I would like to see what a item mall really adds to the game? Is its just the developer that has to gain from this kind of system?
Unless a item mall adds something that clearly benefits the game then im all against it, a well developed mmorg today already has mass profits for the studios. If players are soo inclined of getting an advantage then they always have the RMT option.
I absolutely agree with the above. Besides there are still a lot of good MUDs out there, I'm sure they would be happy for some more people
I really am the last to chime into Smed-bashing... but this man has lost ALL sense of gaming and all managemant instincts. I know F2P is a market, but there are SO many people who prefer to pay via a monthly payment over having to pay for unlock or dubious "items" rather. Its not that SOE is thinking about GW-like games, they want to milk the gamers MORE. As long as you have a monthly fee its easy to control to spendings as player, and you can be certain everything someone else wears (esp. important in PVP) was gained by him PLAYING not PAYING for it. The idea someone has uber gear because he is rich is the LAST thing I want to see in a MMO!
Folks its not that SOE suddenly becomes generous, the want just a legal way to make what goldsellers do, just by themselves, THATS it! Besides, any F2P game shows its FULL of freeloaders and aggro kids, all my experience with GW was horrible community wise.
This man really doesnt get the message! His NGE was wrong, he acquisition of Vanguard was wrong, and so many other decisions. He just has SO lost his instincts into whats going on. Hopefully in the Sony mother company someone realizes it sometimes and pulls the plug and replaces him. I have SO enough of this mans STUPID ramblings and ideas!
If SOE goes into this gaming philosophy I am going to boycott them, I swear, and if theirs are the last MMOs out there. I fully agree with Jenuviel. This is were I too draw the line, while being not MUD player, I can think of many other types of games I can spent my time with, again.
OF COURSE the business is *talking* about such models, and maybe they will try it. But I can tell them all right here and now they will fall flat on their noses with it. Its the same than the foolish copy-protected music download. Once the idea was, to make the music download cheap, but get the income back with limiting the downloaded file to one computer. In reality, it never gained much ground, essentially because people rather pay a bit more but then be certain they can play the music everywhere they want. Most people just prefer a simple 1-time fee which opens all features over a too complictaed system where they are unsure how much they will pay netto in the long run. Just like the limited music download now has failed and most companies are changing that, the itemized payment will fail in the end, if they are really stupid enough to try it out. This is SO NOT the future, lol. But greed likely makes stupid.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
oh yeah! Smed strikes again!
That man is evil. He even looks evil.
I'm not surprised at all that he supports item shops... the ultimate travesty in gaming - the more $$ you pay, the "better" player you are. And to think about all the hypocrisy regarding gold-sellers... He just wants a cut of their dirty pie. I feel sick.
... as for F2P bit.. don't kid yourself - In corporate SOE's hands these games will be free like extasy tablets given by a drug dealer to middle-school kids are "free".
What astounds me is that so many are surprised by this.
Many of us predicted after the Station Exchange debacle, that if not much noise was made of it and if gamers didn't stand up to it that this exact thing would be the next logical step for SoE. We also predicted that it would not only be SoE games, but that it would affect things industry wide.
Sure enough, here we are a couple years later and SoE is pushing for an industry wide F2P, item mall model to be the norm and pushing for the sub based model to disappear.
Station Exchange started us down this slippery slope. I hope many see the folly of their "hey it doesn't affect my game/server/whatever" and start to let game companies know this isn't acceptable.
I love MMO's but I will not support this type of blatant money gouging of gamers and will no longer play if it becomes the norm. If developers want more revenue, quit making crap, not ready for release games. Quit changing your core gameplay 2 years after release. Quit doing shit like selling an expansion then closing the game down 6 months later.
Players are fickle because you, the developers have made us that way. But I suppose at $133 a month per player with the item mall model, you can afford to lose nearly 9/10 of us "old school" players that still like to actually play our MMO's for $15/month. That 1 player that pays $133 a month replaces our other 9 monthly subs fees and it's less work for you because they'll be less players to appease.
And people wonder why there is such disdain for SoE....with shit like this, how can there be any question?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I'm as frustrated as the next player by some of SOE's moves, but this thread is basically a circle jerk of people who want to bash anything this man does. You killed any discussion that may have occurred here. Good job.
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
Hey, thats just not true! I among other have often enough stepped in and defended SOE. I always spoke against blind SOE bashing and blind Smed bashing. Heck, I even tried to defend some of the NGE aspects! But when goldselling becomes the new legal way to fund MMOs... sorry I am out. This man has made just a tad too many crappy decisions and said too many crappy statements now. I really tried to understand and defend SOE so long, but enough is enough.
This idea is indeed a travesty of fair and enjoying gaming and I want no part of this!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
There is nothing "circle jerk" about this thread.
Are players not supposed to let their dissent be known?
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree. I play games to get away from the real world. I don't want to see a credit card swipe station in every single building. I am not attracted to the idea of spending real money for some prestige item.
If I get an epic item, I want to have earned the item. Whether it was through PvP, Raiding, or Crafting to the maximum level, when I get one of the rare items in a game, I want bragging rights. I mean damn it, I put time, effort, and planning into that. Did I enjoy walking into instances in full epics? Hell yeah.
I will never spend a dime in an item shop. I will happily spend $20 a month if the game is good enough. It will have to be a good game - but I will spend it.
Sony wants there MMOs to be itemshops because frankly, they're aiming to become the bargain basement of MMO companies. They'll sit around waiting for an MMO company to fail, buy up their game at firesale prices, then make what they can of itemshops. That's basically their business model at this point - only their trying to charge people $15 a month for NGE and Vanguard.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
in general item shops won't sell any presite weapons or armor, you can buy boosts and fancy items, not equipment.
Actually SOE understands perfectly well, It's you who does not understand. The business is talking about such models? Sorry for asking, but have you been living in a cave? The business is not just talking about such models, the models has been applied and has proven to be successful. In a matter of only a few years the Item shop model has completely dominated asia over monthly fee games,to the point where it's rare to see a monthly fee game and is starting to become more and more popular in the west. Games like Silkroad Online and Maple Story have criminal amounts of players, and people are paying for this, even though it's clear those games are made on a limited budget.
Yulgang Online (Also known as Scions of Fate) has gained over 45 million accounts now. Yulgang gained 15 million accounts from 2006 - 2007. To clarify, that's 1.5 x's World of Warcraft's entire subscriber base went out just to try out Yulgang Online in just one year. Maple Story currently has 67 million accounts created. 67 million! Now, you might argue "that's just accounts created, not current players" and that's correct, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. It just shows how many more people are willing to try a game if it has an item shop instead of a monthly fee. It opens up the games to a much bigger audience. To compare, the original Everquest, you know, the 500k subscriber behemot of the past, only had 2,5 million people try the game in 5 years That means that in one year, Yulgang Online, had 6 times the amount of players trying out the game then Everquest did in five years
Anybody who says the business model will fail is horribly outdated, as the business model has already proven to be successful.
You can love it or you can hate it, but the business model is here to stay. Will monthly fee mmo's die out? Probably not. Despite the overwhelming success in Asia, games like Lineage, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Legend of Mir 2 are still charging a monthly fee because it's difficult to change payment models this far in a game, or even a franchise. But you will see more MMO's, such as the Agency and Free realms by SOE, addapt the business models.
At first I began reading this thread with the instinct to defend Smedley until I read what Smedley had to say about the f2p itemshop method. What this type of business model promotes is very cheap, quick MMO development. The basic breakdown of this business model goes as follow:
Build cheap MMO template
Release First Game/Refine MMO Template and test item Shop
Release Second Game - Item Shop
Release Third Game - Item Shop
And So on.
Now what the supports, like the above poster, fail to realize is these games are all exactly the same as the one before them. We think that LoTRO is a cookie-cutter game based from WoW and WoW is a rehash of EQ etc well you haven't seen nothing yet. These types of games put LoTRO, WoW and EQ all to shame in the cookie-cutter goodness.
For me, I see bad things for the mmo dev companies down the line anyways. Ultimately, there will be that one game that does shine above the rest and it'll be extremely hard to crack it's sway over the rest of the games. Therefore, you'll begin to see less and less MMOs until there is but a handful, if that, of options left. Soon after this you'll have but one or two options left because no one wants to reinvest into another MMO and most other people have left the MMO scene because of the cookie-cutter templates that saturated the market (far more than what you see today).
Ultimately, the Age of MMOs as we know it, dies out and you're left with whatever indie MMO is released at the time with even less budget than a cookie-cutter template MMO.
splat
You consider them cookie cutter but that doesn't stop those MMO's from being very successful, so what is your point? What you fail to realize is that cookie cutterness does not stop a game from being successful. Don't fix what isn't broke and mmo players seem to agree with this.
Support this model all you want. In the end it'll be all about who has the most items and your real life status becomes a reflection of your ingame status as well. Real world capitalism reflected in a GAME. And that is just one of many things so wrong with this business model. At least with $14.95 you know you can put effort into the game and compete with others even if they were gold buyers or rich IRL.
What Smedley and the rest of the industry fail to realize is people want a fun, innovative, envolved MMO not some new business model. WoW, a good game IMHO, is the peak of that game style and that is why MMO subscriptions outside of WoW are going down. MMOs need something fresh and innovative (Not necessarily a new non-fantasy genre; fantasy itself isn't the problem).
IMHO people will pay for a less graphic intensive but feature rich MMO if you know how to market it correctly. Extend your closed, limited beta and limit your open-beta to a week if not less. Provide, right off the bat, a free-limited version of the game at release that shows the potential the game has if you purchase the full version/subscription. Make the full version/subscription as accessible as possible with multiple options.
You, and the industry, are generalizing way to many things when you think that the itemshop method is the way to go. It is not and these companies who begin to invest into it will realize that the asian market is already claimed and the North America/Europe market expects something different. Companies like SOE are setting themselves up for their downfall and lets hope that the remaining ones see this before its way to late.
splat
It's clear that you have not done any research on this subject and you're posting is based on assumptions, not actual facts. First of all I do NOT support this model, I simply put down the facts on the table. next, there are very, very few games where amount of real life money you put into the game reflects your ingame status. You can not buy your character level ups, you can not buy your character equipment, All of it has to be found ingame, just like non - paying members.
If people wanted a fresh innovative MMO, then Auto Assault wouldn't have died and EVE would now be a top selling game. Instead, World of Warcraft is the 10 million behemot while EVE has barely 200k subscribers, Lord of the Rings Online is now the 2nd most popular north american mmorpg while Auto Assault had to shut down due to a lack of subscribers. Sword of the New World is struggling with 4 servers while Silkroad Online currently has 30 full servers on the non - asian servers in which it's often nearly impossible to log into.
You can claim "Blabloabla business model will fail" but what evidence do you have for this? Nothing. Meanwhile, games like Maple Story, Silkroad and Scions of fate are proving you wrong.
I find it quite ironic that you're saying that people expect an innovative game when you already scream "failure!" when a new, innovatives business model arrives. Now I know a game and business models are two different things but it just shows how people respond when something new is done.
Actually SOE understands perfectly well, It's you who does not understand. The business is talking about such models? Sorry for asking, but have you been living in a cave? The business is not just talking about such models, the models has been applied and has proven to be successful. In a matter of only a few years the Item shop model has completely dominated asia over monthly fee games,to the point where it's rare to see a monthly fee game and is starting to become more and more popular in the west. Games like Silkroad Online and Maple Story have criminal amounts of players, and people are paying for this, even though it's clear those games are made on a limited budget.
Yulgang Online (Also known as Scions of Fate) has gained over 45 million accounts now. Yulgang gained 15 million accounts from 2006 - 2007. To clarify, that's 1.5 x's World of Warcraft's entire subscriber base went out just to try out Yulgang Online in just one year. Maple Story currently has 67 million accounts created. 67 million! Now, you might argue "that's just accounts created, not current players" and that's correct, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. It just shows how many more people are willing to try a game if it has an item shop instead of a monthly fee. It opens up the games to a much bigger audience. To compare, the original Everquest, you know, the 500k subscriber behemot of the past, only had 2,5 million people try the game in 5 years That means that in one year, Yulgang Online, had 6 times the amount of players trying out the game then Everquest did in five years
Anybody who says the business model will fail is horribly outdated, as the business model has already proven to be successful.
You can love it or you can hate it, but the business model is here to stay. Will monthly fee mmo's die out? Probably not. Despite the overwhelming success in Asia, games like Lineage, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Legend of Mir 2 are still charging a monthly fee because it's difficult to change payment models this far in a game, or even a franchise. But you will see more MMO's, such as the Agency and Free realms by SOE, addapt the business models.
You should know pretty well we talk about entirely different CULTURES of gaming here. Most people who are hooked into WOW, EQ2, VG, LOTRO, CoH and so on never want to swap their MMO gaming experience for lightweight games like Maple Story! Its just hilarious to compare them. I mean, if Smed wants to stop making "classic western style MMOs" and start making browser games and Asia grinders, thats his decision. Its just comparing apples and bananas here.
I am quite confident in my judgement. The MMORPG player we have HERE is something entirely different, with differnt expectations and playstyles.
Mr Smartass Smed and his type has make ENOUGH mistakes in business, so they arent the sacred wisemen in MY book. I dunno what the bean counting manager types THINK is the future, I just say most of the kind of players who play said western style MMOs will NOT be too happy about this, I can guanrantee you. If they want another target audience, well, its their decision, but they aint gonna make it with 95% of their CURRENT players. Its a dubious money trap, where people are lulled to believe they save money and they they are tempted to spent hundrets of dollars because they sting their greed. I find this idea not only stupid but also immoral. Its like placing a heroine vendor in a schoolyard!
Call me old fashioned, but I - coming from a pen and paper background - thought playing a MMORPG was about something ELSE than who has the biggest pocket purse! I dont want RL capitalism in MY fantasy world, no matter what smooth talk any can conjure out of his brains. Make it and you loose me - and I am damn sure a lot of others as well. It would be a sad day when accomplishments are a matter of MONEY and no longer of effort! Thats just a gaming concept I want no part of. End of the story.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert