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Are mmo Companies SO OUT OF TOUCH ?!?
valter007
Member Posts: 4
FIrst of all, a little something about me. There isnt a single mmorpg out there that can keep my interest for more than a month (tops)
Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do.
Hell there are just people asking for just a CHANGE really..
Are game companies so fucking retarded that they dont listen to those people? Cause if i was in to marketing and shit i'd say theres a market here already warm and ready for a product that will be DIFFERENT.
Even more people whine and bitch on how games totally suck nowdays, how they lack in keeping their interest after the lvl cap. After grinding thousands of quests, killing millions of mobs blah blah blah
Wow have supposedly 10m of costumers, yet its considered mcdonalds by many people including the writer.
Why is it so terrible for a game nowadays to push for innovations ? To try different things. To revolutionize the genre.
Why this awfull stagnancy ? How mediocre things are..
Game companies need to fucking get a grip and start listening to their costumers instead of serving them shit all the time. Its all about BALANCE and CHANGE.
Rant over..
What do you guys feel about it ?
Comments
It takes alot longer and alot more cash to develop a game now a days, thus making people stick to the tried and tested things, instead of taking chances with their money / time.
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I try to take the common sense approach when looking at these situations. The mmo market (ie the $) has been growing every year. That is a sign of well they are doing.
Now, just because some particular person who plays mmos doesn't like where the marketplace is or can't stay with games is more a sign of a problem with that person.
Also, OP, please address issues in your name and don't speak for other people or a lot of other people. It is not productive to position yourself as the voice for other people who may not know you are speaking for them and who may have other feelings on the matter. So say "I want SANDBOX" when you want to make those points.
So you want them to listen to you... not the 9 mil other players. Face the facts, your opinion is worth nothing. On the same note, you should play shadowbane it's pretty hardcore pvp.. just give me your character's names. I'd like to greet you a few times.
Just so I'm clear on your business plan here...
Build the most expensive MMO ever created...with the least broad appeal and therefore financial forecast...
I'd start calling producers right away, I think you're on to something here!
But, I think that posters here on MMORPG.com are as far out of touch as anyone can possibly be. They think they know what kind of game would be succesfull, when in truth it's more likely that their dream games would be nearly impossible to make, or so boring that even they couldn't stand playing them, or both.
God this subject again...Look there's Millions of people out there and Millions of People have different views on what makes or breaks a game for them.
Some can't get over the old days of UO that had free for all pvping, looting, housing, sandbox etc etc. Some people never liked it in the first place. Some will never get over the fact that UO which used to have all those things...changed in order to keep the Large masses of their players that were leaving.
While the niche of game your asking for is popular its only popular with a niche set. There's nothing 'risky' in making this sort of game...but its obvious the designers & developers would like a better balance because maintaining a population of only free for all pvp mind sets has yet to work. Even EvE a fairly hard core pvp game has stuff for the PvE crowd and safe areas.
Game developers listen they just seem to be a majority listening to a player base that doesnt' cater to your specific needs.
Honestly there's nothing revolutionary or NEW in any of the things you asked for. They've all been done and are being done they're just NOT massive AAA titles.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
So you want them to listen to you... not the 9 mil other players. Face the facts, your opinion is worth nothing. On the same note, you should play shadowbane it's pretty hardcore pvp.. just give me your character's names. I'd like to greet you a few times.
This is so true. MMORPG.com represents a small but vocal section of the MMO public. Add to the official forums and the other gaming sites you still are not catching everyone who plays. Then you take all the people who have an opinion and divide them into groups by wants and you have to look at the largest group. THEN you have to talk to the marketing department who totally ignore the players opinions and decide that a MMO based on puppies is what the public really needs (j/k)
Really tho few games are made in a vaccum. You have the devs who answer to so many other people that what the public wants becomes a secondary concern. Companies run the numbers based on some formula and the wants of a small segment of the overall population get lost. Even if that segment posts alot.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
So you want them to listen to you... not the 9 mil other players. Face the facts, your opinion is worth nothing. On the same note, you should play shadowbane it's pretty hardcore pvp.. just give me your character's names. I'd like to greet you a few times.
This is so true. MMORPG.com represents a small but vocal section of the MMO public. Add to the official forums and the other gaming sites you still are not catching everyone who plays. Then you take all the people who have an opinion and divide them into groups by wants and you have to look at the largest group. THEN you have to talk to the marketing department who totally ignore the players opinions and decide that a MMO based on puppies is what the public really needs (j/k)
Really tho few games are made in a vaccum. You have the devs who answer to so many other people that what the public wants becomes a secondary concern. Companies run the numbers based on some formula and the wants of a small segment of the overall population get lost. Even if that segment posts alot.
This is NOT how Game Companies work...if that was true almost No game would ever get made. Smaller companies have a harder time getting things out there because they have to do those things in order to get people to invest money, this is not the case for smaller companies that are owned by bigger ones and not the case for Large Companies at all. The game is fully designed on paper in its most primitive form before it taken to companyh people. They have to spin & hype the game to get approval yes but money and marketting are secondary concerns. Player Wants and Needs come in during Beta testing (for online games). If game companies made games this way we'd see nothing but Hello Barbie and other BS shit they know they can absolutely market it to certain types of people. If they went off purely what players made then even smaller markets of players would be satisified. Game Designers make games that THEY want to play, yes some have to make lots of horibble kiddy based or sports games before they get to do what they want but eventually they earn respect to pitch their own ideas. Want your game made..catered to just you and your friends? Start your own company.
Hell if this was true atleast it'd get rid of those shitty ass IP Movie themed games that suck most of the time.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I dropped out after the first few sentences
Its clearly you have never done research. Dont deny it..
I am waiting for a game to be released that is going to be the way I hope. Differnt. Which game? Do research yourself. All I say is release Q1 2008 if it is going to it.
Not sure what game you're speaking of, since AoC and WAR aren't coming out Q1 2008. Regardless, if your'e saying the game of your dreams, the one totally different than all the others, is coming out soon because the producers said so...talk about out of touch.
Are MMO devs out of touch with a small minority who want to relive ultima online?probably.
Oh and no,I dont want skill grinders.If I wanted to run and hit mobs over and over with no quest function id go and play one of the many korean grindfests.
Actually the vocal minority of hardcore MMO players that would actually spend time posting on forums dedicated to MMO gaming are the ones that are out of touch.
Us.
I would bet a lot of money that of the millions and millions of MMO gamers, the percentage% that actually post on websites like this as well as the official forum boards is a very small number.
I'd be surprised if 10% of all MMO gamers visited forums and dedicated sites like this on a regular basis. Notice I said regular basis.
Honestly, as much as I love my own opinion lol,
If you were to make a MMO with the combined consensus of opinion of those who regularly post on MMORPG.com....
I doubt it'd do too well.
Or have an expected release date before 2030 LOL!
CAPS LOCKS MAKE MY POST MORE IMPORTANT LOLZ. ESPECIALLY CURSING!
So you want them to listen to you... not the 9 mil other players. Face the facts, your opinion is worth nothing. On the same note, you should play shadowbane it's pretty hardcore pvp.. just give me your character's names. I'd like to greet you a few times.
This is so true. MMORPG.com represents a small but vocal section of the MMO public. Add to the official forums and the other gaming sites you still are not catching everyone who plays. Then you take all the people who have an opinion and divide them into groups by wants and you have to look at the largest group. THEN you have to talk to the marketing department who totally ignore the players opinions and decide that a MMO based on puppies is what the public really needs (j/k)
Really tho few games are made in a vaccum. You have the devs who answer to so many other people that what the public wants becomes a secondary concern. Companies run the numbers based on some formula and the wants of a small segment of the overall population get lost. Even if that segment posts alot.
This is NOT how Game Companies work...if that was true almost No game would ever get made. Smaller companies have a harder time getting things out there because they have to do those things in order to get people to invest money, this is not the case for smaller companies that are owned by bigger ones and not the case for Large Companies at all. The game is fully designed on paper in its most primitive form before it taken to companyh people. They have to spin & hype the game to get approval yes but money and marketting are secondary concerns. Player Wants and Needs come in during Beta testing (for online games). If game companies made games this way we'd see nothing but Hello Barbie and other BS shit they know they can absolutely market it to certain types of people. If they went off purely what players made then even smaller markets of players would be satisified. Game Designers make games that THEY want to play, yes some have to make lots of horibble kiddy based or sports games before they get to do what they want but eventually they earn respect to pitch their own ideas. Want your game made..catered to just you and your friends? Start your own company.
Hell if this was true atleast it'd get rid of those shitty ass IP Movie themed games that suck most of the time.
A dev team may come up with a game that they would want to play but the company has way more say over what goes into the game. I work for a company associated with a software company and they don't scratch their collective ass until marketing tells them to. Player wants and needs? Companies dont give to shives about player wants and needs. They call it the MMO MARKET for a reason. Money is the bottom line and don't you think that if SOE, Blizzard, NCsoft, EA/Mythic, and everyone else thought that a Barbie MMO would sell that we would be swimming in them?
Sure someone with a known name, like Richard Garriot, may come out and say "I have an idea" and then make the game they want, but even then look at TR? Do you think that TR is exactly what Richard wanted?Most devs are nameless hard working stiffs who do what they are told.
Smaller independent dev teams maybe able to take there idea and run with it, but if this was truly successful why are there not just as many small indie titles as big name flops? How many of these indie titles flashed in the pan only to fizzle out if they got off the ground in the first place.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Wow you work with a company associated with a software company?! Gasp! I'll do you one better I work for an actual company that makes engines & software and we listen damn closely to our customers otherwise we'd be the hell out of a job.
Any and every company want to make money but they certaintly aren't going to make money listening to a hardcore minority of WHINERS. Thats right Whiners. If you agree with the OP in all senses of reality your a whiner. There's no lack of games out there for you to enjoy just because there are more of a game type out there that you hate doesn't mean they're shit games. Someone obviously likes them or companies wouldn't make them. .
Making any and every game is a risk no matter how popular the genre is. The idea that game companies don't pay attention to their market is utterly ridiculous (its just unfortante there are Dev's who have their heads up their buttocks but then this happens in every field of life). If all games suddenly became the same and catered to just one group of players then it'd be the end of games. If all games suddenly just appealed to all types of players then in the end games would happen due to the sheer insanity of trying to maintain a game of said size.
There's something for everyone out there this continued OMG they're not listening to me BS is just getting old I mean come on how much harder can a person
over nothing. You can't have it your way every single time.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I want something new. And i want to have a nice character gameplay. Thats why i didnt jump on the PotBS release or play Shadowbane.....i cant stand the point and click movement.
Besides that i really agree to the OP. We have some great "different" MMOs.....but thay are all really old. Why didnt we have anyone released in 2005- 2007?
I think you are wrong. First, all the things you are asking for (no instanced, no teleporting, skill-based) are hardcore gamers want that does NOT reflect most peoples' preferences. I have wife+kids+job and I don't want stress in my entertainment.
I have two hours last night and I am GLAD that i can get a group in WOW, summon to the dungeon, and finish the boss with the time I have. This is 100x better than my EQ days where camping 6 hours (with 90% of the time doing nothing but chat) can get you NOTHING. And while it is easy (in terms of time commitment), there are still tons of strategies and play style. So I don't think casual necessarily equal dumbing down. What is so smart about walking 30 min to get where I need to go?
And game companies, especially Blizzard, are rewarded for listening to what their customer wants. MMORPG is a bit of a winner-take-all game (because of the investment involve) so it is probably difficult to duplicate what WOW has done.
However, the industry can go into different genre and what-not. However, I feel that it is the way to go making it casual. The super hardcore game will never be anything but niche.
The biggest one is risk aversion. These are corporations and they are not going to take uneccessary risks, they'll leave that to smaller companies, but here's the rub: it's almost impossible for a smaller company to come up with a graphics based game that is MMO without the backing of a large company.
I also think the OP is out to lunch, there's very few people who want to play the game he's describing. Sandbox in the past has been used as an excuse, so that you wouldn't have to create any real content in game. Free for all pvp has very limited appeal and judging from quite a few of the posters on this board, they seem to be borderline sociopaths
Skill based may work, but I don't trust the mechanic. Someone before mentioned 'grindfest' and that's what I perceive the problem with that sort of system is, or skills are so easily leveled up that it's a joke.
MMOs are not designed by one person, they are designed by committee and the result usually ends up being a mediocre effort at best, that being said I've enjoyed the MMOs I played, but they've only held my attention for so long.
Sorry, MMOs are not some grand art form, they are a way of making money. And companies go with what there marketing department, as well as other departments, tell them they will make the most money.
I am not saying that developement companies dont pay attention to customers or the market. What I am saying is that in the end, everything said and done, they do what their numbers tell them will give them the biggest return.
When a company does something that the public hates, that decision was based on what they percieve as being their best investment.
Read what I am saying, companies don't care. They decide based on what will make money and if the public agrees great if not then they made a mistake and do something else, but they dont care.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Look at the list of games on the left hand side of this webpage.
Count the number of sandbox, pvp, classless, etc games that are a financial success.
Now count the number of class based linear raid and or pvp games on that list that are a financial success.
I think companies are listening to what consumers are telling them. Sadly no game that has what you want has been released in anywhere close to decent shape which has hurt innovation and forward progress of the genre. The only exception I can think of are games with Raph Kosters craftmanship behind it and even then they weren't given enough time to develop and the companies eventually wrecked them after chasing off Raph.
There is plenty of room for both types of games and many more that walk a line between the two styles. The problem is so few companies have actually made a worthwhile product.
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
Of course your opinion is going to be this. You are an engineer (Software hardware? who cares)
You aren't seeing the level of the bottom dollar because you are locked away in some tech stall where the buis dev guys can't talk to you. Or if they do it's just to appease you and make you feel warm and cozy with the company.
Face it your company, my company, that company over there gives a rats ass less about fun and new exciting features if they don't make money. Developers start with making a game they would want to play and by the time people like me get done with them it's a new game and the profit margin forecast goes up 100%.
Meanwhile mr.dev just shrugs because he just got his 30k raise.
See games are fun and all but you offer more funding to a project and more money to the devs to do whatever your forecasters say to do...You pretty much own the project and the dev(s) have to shrug...and drive home in their nice new BMW's to their nice new homes...Beats the apartments after all right?
Then they turn into garriot... A guy who worked out of a garage. Built a game how he liked....Made some really good single player games....That really didn't sell (had a cult following yes but sell naw.) . One day he takes the idea of a MUD and BAM UO.
UO comes around but guess what ! OSI can't afford it! Oh noes!
EA to the rescue with their forecasters and metrics. Bam UO is profitable and Garriot is Sailes little beotch until he leaves to flounder found Destination Games. Then the mashing the project wasting a huge amount of revenue.
To make a floppy ass game...yet again.
Moral of the Story: Devs need guys to tell them what to do because like we gamers who have "our perfect game that nobody would want to play really....so too do devs".
umm agree with your post - figured i should post where i am agreeing for once instead of coming off always as disagreeable or argumentative lol
a lot of the whining comes from:
1) 10-30 year olds that seem to lack a 'fair' attention span
2) i want i want i want - GREED
3) the inability to compromise - a game is not a "principle", it isnt like one is compromising one's high ideals in life to muddle through some of the minor annoyances in a game to get to the creamy-filled center
i agree that a few games are almost like work ... absolutely dont play those ones, but some games can be pleasant little "simple" distractions; if people are ohhh so tired and want an OHHHHHH so complex game - go work on some applied math, programming and BUILD IT YOURSELF if you can freaking do better ya sissy lil whiners [not you elven lol]
i dont want an extremely complex game - i'm already playing that one it is called LIFE lol
4) lack of critical thinking - just want to kill kill kill - hey that's like an fps then isnt it? isnt a "role playing game" about ... playing the 'role' ... unless the game is "God vs Everyone Else" your character probably isnt omnipotent - deal with it, use a brain instead of fingers acting like a mouth spouting off about every single game under the sun being worthless
omg time and time again posters are "no game holds my interest for more than a month" then maybe that should tell you to get OFF YOUR A** and MOVE ON TO a SIGNIFICANT OTHER or become a work-aholic or porn-addict or something that DOES hold your interest - goes back to #1 above and adhd syndrome running rampant .....
hmm here's a concept for the "constant" whiners - go daydream - playing a game inside your head that has all the features you want ... you shouldnt get bored with that now should you? you can use all the creativity your tiny intellect can muster to drive the story wherever you want it to go - featuritis galore!!! and you can play this game everyday for the rest of your life .... granted it's usually a solo instance UNLESS you have multiple personalities lmao
now that being said it doesnt mean some opinions are not valid nor well-thought out -some games do "suck", some games do have flaws in one aspect or another -but ..HELLO it is a G-A-M-E relax enjoy. educated opinions are given more weight and consideration than day-in day-out whiny opinions
maybe 'im just too busy enjoying life and having fun - ...but i rarely have played a game i didnt like , i'd do a little homework and either buy a game or not based on my research into it
my daughter better never whine and complain about games when she is growing up or i'll take them all away from her - i wont craft a level 99 whiner of a child
.... back to your engines - slow like 4/5ths of the companies out there ? or fast, sexy, n sleek under the cpu hood?
i would *love* to see some of the cell-processor engines and code just to see what some of those devs are parallelizing and where they are failing to take advantage of the cpu [well them and/or the compilers parallel code gen]
x
ruby is for sissy-dofuses, real programmers don't touch it even with a 10 ft python
xkey was here
you talk about software and software company's when you don't even know a line of programming blargh i hate youa ll
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