... Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do. ...
They are called MUD's, stop complaining and go play one.
People have been asking for a Virtual World for years now. NPCs with some life and purpose, factions which matter and not just in a "it takes 10 hours to get ally" sense. Where RPG isn't just three unimportant letters.
I know and have played plenty of games where I kill 10 gorillas for the Cap of Monster Slaying. I don't want for more opportunities to kill gorillas. But I'd love once again to enter a world rich in lore and wonder, where I felt like a tiny spec in a world that existed with or without me.
Hmm, haven't been part of something like that for years. Is it really there, and I've just missed it?
And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people wantor do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.
You talk as though these are two different things.
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
1. Right now there are more people who prefer a casual easy PvE-game with levels and a PvP minigame (arena) than one big sandboxy PvP Arena. Thats the way it is, no matter how we like it or not. Companies will try to go after the big part of the cake as usual, its all been said before.
2. The cries for change and new MMO game mechanics started about 2-3 years ago. I think I read more posts in the last year from frustrated players wanting something new than in the two years before that combined. I guess the non-conform crowd is growing. The problem is: Even if we were heard a year ago, developing a new MMO takes time. If someone picked up the new hype a year ago the corresponding game would only get released about 4-5 years after that. The mass of EQ-clones we are seeing today were conceived 4-5 years ago when WoW was still "small" compared to today. At that time the devs of the other companies watched WoWs succesfull start with envy and went straight to the drawing boards to develop a clone with some sort of variation. Thus I think we can expect games with new designs to appear in about 2-3 years as a minimum because the wish for these new designs surfaced only in recent months/years.
3. Next problem: High risk. In the days of a 10 mio player WoW it will be hard to convince anyone to invest money into a design that *may* be succesfull in 3-4 years time. Who knows what people will want in 4 years? Rather go the secure way of developing what "works". *Sigh*
The only thing we can do is wait and voice our opinion every now and then. We just have to hope that those 10 mio WoW players end their subscription out of boredom. Thats the point when new stuff WILL appear.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
1. Right now there are more people who prefer a casual easy PvE-game with levels and a PvP minigame (arena) than one big sandboxy PvP Arena. Thats the way it is, no matter how we like it or not. Companies will try to go after the big part of the cake as usual, its all been said before.
2. The cries for change and new MMO game mechanics started about 2-3 years ago. I think I read more posts in the last year from frustrated players wanting something new than in the two years before that combined. I guess the non-conform crowd is growing. The problem is: Even if we were heard a year ago, developing a new MMO takes time. If someone picked up the new hype a year ago the corresponding game would only get released about 4-5 years after that. The mass of EQ-clones we are seeing today were conceived 4-5 years ago when WoW was still "small" compared to today. At that time the devs of the other companies watched WoWs succesfull start with envy and went straight to the drawing boards to develop a clone with some sort of variation. Thus I think we can expect games with new designs to appear in about 2-3 years as a minimum because the wish for these new designs surfaced only in recent months/years.
3. Next problem: High risk. In the days of a 10 mio player WoW it will be hard to convince anyone to invest money into a design that *may* be succesfull in 3-4 years time. Who knows what people will want in 4 years? Rather go the secure way of developing what "works". *Sigh*
The only thing we can do is wait and voice our opinion every now and then. We just have to hope that those 10 mio WoW players end their subscription out of boredom. Thats the point when new stuff WILL appear.
Great points I think you have hit the nail on the head.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people wantor do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.
You talk as though these are two different things.
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
That is a ridiculous non-argument, and you should be ashamed.
But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.
And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people wantor do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.
You talk as though these are two different things.
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
That is a ridiculous non-argument, and you should be ashamed.
But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.
LOL! You turned my frown upside down. I will not press you further on this because you made me laugh.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
In the manufacturing industry, consumers would love their purchases to last forever. It is not in the interests of the manufacturers for products not to break, however.
The entertainment industry is different. People will not go to see a comedian they don't find funny; watch a film they don't enjoy or play a game that isn't fun.
In the manufacturing industry, consumers would love their purchases to last forever. It is not in the interests of the manufacturers for products not to break, however.
The entertainment industry is different. People will not go to see a comedian they don't find funny; watch a film they don't enjoy or play a game that isn't fun.
Stupid generic arguments are stupid.
Alright children think about it. Is everything you currently have what you wanted or did it fulfil a desire or need and what you really wanted was unattainable?
When you see a comedian you like do you laugh at every joke? When you see a movie do you walk out if you aren't stunned in the first 5 minutes? When you purchase a game, especially an MMO, do you always enjoy every second of it?
But arent we always looking to laugh at every joke, be enthralled from the start and enjoy every second. We have gotten used to settling because we know that we cannot have the things just the we want so we take what we can get. Companies know that we will pay for something even if it isn't exactly just what we want because it is close enough to fulfil a desire or need, even if not fully.
So the idea that the giving the people what they want is where the money is simple does not work. The money is filling the most general desire. And when trying to fulfil more than the most general need or desire cuts into the bottom line then companies will not go down that path but instead follow the path that leads to profit. With out regard to what the customer really wants.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Some can't get over the old days of UO that had free for all pvping, looting, housing, sandbox etc etc. Some people never liked it in the first place. Some will never get over the fact that UO which used to have all those things...changed in order to keep the Large masses of their players that were leaving.
So when it comes to making something different in the malcontent market of MMORPGs, we hear expense and this long old argument which may have been true in 1999-2000. You are forgetting that at the time this happened no more than several hundred thousand played ANY kind of MMORPG, that now there are millions or tens of millions, and that many of those have only even started playing in the past 5 years.
The general appeal of such a game to the kinds of people who were playing MMORPGs in 1998 will not be the same as the general appeal to the kinds of people playing now. They are entirely different kinds of people coming from a broader swathe of society as the genre has moved from obscurity to mainstream notoriety.
You people need to stop bringing up those days like they're a rule that holds true to anything about today.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Alright children think about it. Is everything you currently have what you wanted or did it fulfil a desire or need and what you really wanted was unattainable?
When you see a comedian you like do you laugh at every joke? When you see a movie do you walk out if you aren't stunned in the first 5 minutes? When you purchase a game, especially an MMO, do you always enjoy every second of it? But arent we always looking to laugh at every joke, be enthralled from the start and enjoy every second. We have gotten used to settling because we know that we cannot have the things just the we want so we take what we can get. Companies know that we will pay for something even if it isn't exactly just what we want because it is close enough to fulfil a desire or need, even if not fully. So the idea that the giving the people what they want is where the money is simple does not work. The money is filling the most general desire. And when trying to fulfil more than the most general need or desire cuts into the bottom line then companies will not go down that path but instead follow the path that leads to profit. With out regard to what the customer really wants.
But does a comedian deliberately inject unfunny jokes into his routine because giving the audience exactly what they want would be bad for business?
No. Some of those jokes aren't funny, but you can bet your ass that comedian wants every joke to go down well. So some might miss the mark, but it's not through any business acumen he might have, it's that sometimes we fail even tho we try. And sometimes we don't have time/energy to make the extra effort, so we put out B-grade material to fill the gaps.
But this isn't your orginal argument. You said "giving people what they want is bad for business" or some such nonsense. The fact is, in entertainment you have to give people as much of what they want as is possible, or someone else will. People might watch an average comedian if he's the best thing in town, but if the guy up the street is pure comic gold, they'll go there instead.
It is plainly not good business practice to deliberately and willfully avoid the wants and needs of your customers. Saying anything else is just argument for the sake of it.
I will play devil's advocate for a moment here, because there is one instance in which you are sort of right.
I believe that a lot of customers don't really know what they want. Hence, delivering what they ask for is no more guaranteed than delivering what they say they don't want. But that doesn't mean you should do this every time.
It's like a kid who says he never wants to be disciplined. He might say that's what he wants, but really he wants (even if he doesn't know it yet) to develop into a normal, healthy adult. Kids with no discipline are less likely to become well-adjusted adults.
That's stretching a bit, but it's a genuine case for not always giving people what they "want".
you're OUT OF TOUCH ! I'M out of tiiiime, but I'm out of my head, when you're not arround,
you're out of touch, I'M out of timeeee, but Im out of my heaaaad when youre not aarrrround, OH ! OH OH OH, OH OH OH *sing*
SOE and NGE-Star Wars Galalaxies: Raph Koster: "It's like dumping the girlfriend who has always been patient and loving to chase after the supermodel who probably won't love you back."
you're OUT OF TOUCH ! I'M out of tiiiime, but I'm out of my head, when you're not arround, you're out of touch, I'M out of timeeee, but Im out of my heaaaad when youre not aarrrround, OH ! OH OH OH, OH OH OH *sing*
Thank you. Sincerely. Sometimes I forget that MMOs, and all games, just aren't important.
For some reason, nothing makes me appreciate life like music. Good music, that is. And there's lots of good 80s music
I will play devil's advocate for a moment here, because there is one instance in which you are sort of right.
I believe that a lot of customers don't really know what they want. Hence, delivering what they ask for is no more guaranteed than delivering what they say they don't want. But that doesn't mean you should do this every time.
It's like a kid who says he never wants to be disciplined. He might say that's what he wants, but really he wants (even if he doesn't know it yet) to develop into a normal, healthy adult. Kids with no discipline are less likely to become well-adjusted adults.
That's stretching a bit, but it's a genuine case for not always giving people what they "want".
Ok I agree the comedian example was just bad. Also, my arguement is correct on some levels but not all. What you say above is true, and a better way of putting what I was saying. What we want is the perfect MMO, what we get, in the best situation, is one we can enjoy, but not exactly what we want. Companies appeal to the masses, I have found that people who post here are not the masses, most are not blind followers or sheep. So, this being said, I see the exception here not the rule.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad." Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I will play devil's advocate for a moment here, because there is one instance in which you are sort of right.
I believe that a lot of customers don't really know what they want. Hence, delivering what they ask for is no more guaranteed than delivering what they say they don't want. But that doesn't mean you should do this every time.
It's like a kid who says he never wants to be disciplined. He might say that's what he wants, but really he wants (even if he doesn't know it yet) to develop into a normal, healthy adult. Kids with no discipline are less likely to become well-adjusted adults.
That's stretching a bit, but it's a genuine case for not always giving people what they "want".
Ok I agree the comedian example was just bad. Also, my arguement is correct on some levels but not all. What you say above is true, and a better way of putting what I was saying. What we want is the perfect MMO, what we get, in the best situation, is one we can enjoy, but not exactly what we want. Companies appeal to the masses, I have found that people who post here are not the masses, most are not blind followers or sheep. So, this being said, I see the exception here not the rule.
Why do you have to do the self patting on the back commenting about "not blind followers or sheep". Do you really need to believe you are something extra ordinary?
I think we are getting it wrong here. MMORPGS have been dumbed down precisely listiening to what people wanted. People were tired of grinding and travelling and corpse runs, so they screamed for teleports and fast levelling and maps and radars and no CR. And what not. They screamed "I want fun! I want fun! I want fun!"
But now a quite big part of this people has realized that now MMROGPS are not oh so fun, and along with the ones that never wanted MMROGPS to be dumbed down are screaming for a more challenging gameplay again. Will they listen? I hope at least a couple of rather big or med companies will, but not any time soon.
I think we are getting it wrong here. MMORPGS have been dumbed down precisely listiening to what people wanted. People were tired of grinding and travelling and corpse runs, so they screamed for teleports and fast levelling and maps and radars and no CR. And what not. They screamed "I want fun! I want fun! I want fun!" But now a quite big part of this people has realized that now MMROGPS are not oh so fun, and along with the ones that never wanted MMROGPS to be dumbed down are screaming for a more challenging gameplay again. Will they listen? I hope at least a couple of rather big or med companies will, but not any time soon.
Certainly at least 10M subscribers of WOW find the easy grinding, no corpse runs and teleports are more fun than unforgiving hardcore "challenge" gameplay.
I do not see any indication why MMORPG should not continue to go down the more casual approach. Not everyone wants a challenge. A lot of people are trying to relax and get AWAY from stress in their entertainment after work.
Originally posted by valter007 Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do.
What do you guys feel about it ?
How I feel about it? Confused, to be honest. What exactly do you want to loot fully, if it's also a no item-based game?
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
I think we are getting it wrong here. MMORPGS have been dumbed down precisely listiening to what people wanted. People were tired of grinding and travelling and corpse runs, so they screamed for teleports and fast levelling and maps and radars and no CR. And what not. They screamed "I want fun! I want fun! I want fun!" But now a quite big part of this people has realized that now MMROGPS are not oh so fun, and along with the ones that never wanted MMROGPS to be dumbed down are screaming for a more challenging gameplay again. Will they listen? I hope at least a couple of rather big or med companies will, but not any time soon.
Certainly at least 10M subscribers of WOW find the easy grinding, no corpse runs and teleports are more fun than unforgiving hardcore "challenge" gameplay.
I do not see any indication why MMORPG should not continue to go down the more casual approach. Not everyone wants a challenge. A lot of people are trying to relax and get AWAY from stress in their entertainment after work.
Well, I'm one of those 10M subscribers and I'm screaming for a more challenging MMORPG.
I said a big part and that's misleading. I meant not all of them, nor the majority, just a consierable amount of people. Of course this is just a guess, but if its only a 5 % of the WOW gamers, that means half a milion people , plus the ones not playing WOW and wanting a more challeing MMORPG, that's a lot of gamers that could make a couple of MMORPGS a success.
FIrst of all, a little something about me. There isnt a single mmorpg out there that can keep my interest for more than a month (tops) Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do. Hell there are just people asking for just a CHANGE really.. Are game companies so fucking retarded that they dont listen to those people? Cause if i was in to marketing and shit i'd say theres a market here already warm and ready for a product that will be DIFFERENT. Even more people whine and bitch on how games totally suck nowdays, how they lack in keeping their interest after the lvl cap. After grinding thousands of quests, killing millions of mobs blah blah blah Wow have supposedly 10m of costumers, yet its considered mcdonalds by many people including the writer. Why is it so terrible for a game nowadays to push for innovations ? To try different things. To revolutionize the genre. Why this awfull stagnancy ? How mediocre things are.. Game companies need to fucking get a grip and start listening to their costumers instead of serving them shit all the time. Its all about BALANCE and CHANGE. Rant over.. What do you guys feel about it ?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the MMO developers are going to listen to the likes of the 10 million people playing WoW, and not the one or two hundred who post on here regularly.
That said, I would definitely look for a game with more depth.
It's interesting, however, that you complain about instances, items, quests, etc., but you don't actually suggest what we're supposed to do in your hypothetical game, other than apparently spending a lot of time getting from point A to point X, and grinding to get money so we can repeatedly replace all of our gear after getting ganked and looted over and over again.
Just curious, what exactly do you have in mind?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
FIrst of all, a little something about me. There isnt a single mmorpg out there that can keep my interest for more than a month (tops) Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do. Hell there are just people asking for just a CHANGE really.. Are game companies so fucking retarded that they dont listen to those people? Cause if i was in to marketing and shit i'd say theres a market here already warm and ready for a product that will be DIFFERENT. Even more people whine and bitch on how games totally suck nowdays, how they lack in keeping their interest after the lvl cap. After grinding thousands of quests, killing millions of mobs blah blah blah Wow have supposedly 10m of costumers, yet its considered mcdonalds by many people including the writer. Why is it so terrible for a game nowadays to push for innovations ? To try different things. To revolutionize the genre. Why this awfull stagnancy ? How mediocre things are.. Game companies need to fucking get a grip and start listening to their costumers instead of serving them shit all the time. Its all about BALANCE and CHANGE. Rant over.. What do you guys feel about it ?
I think somebody else is "SO OUT OF TOUCH" to be frank with you.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
FIrst of all, a little something about me. There isnt a single mmorpg out there that can keep my interest for more than a month (tops) Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do. Hell there are just people asking for just a CHANGE really.. Are game companies so fucking retarded that they dont listen to those people? Cause if i was in to marketing and shit i'd say theres a market here already warm and ready for a product that will be DIFFERENT. Even more people whine and bitch on how games totally suck nowdays, how they lack in keeping their interest after the lvl cap. After grinding thousands of quests, killing millions of mobs blah blah blah Wow have supposedly 10m of costumers, yet its considered mcdonalds by many people including the writer. Why is it so terrible for a game nowadays to push for innovations ? To try different things. To revolutionize the genre. Why this awfull stagnancy ? How mediocre things are.. Game companies need to fucking get a grip and start listening to their costumers instead of serving them shit all the time. Its all about BALANCE and CHANGE. Rant over.. What do you guys feel about it ?
Nice rant, but the game companies and developers are paying attention to the players. Most of the players are ok with the present form of MMORPG format, and that these players are the majority. The minority are the ones who ask for changes, innovations, basically what you've mentioned above. But these people are the minority of the gamer population.
So who will the game companies focus on first? Of course they will focus on the majority of the players (more players = more $$$). But there are some game companies slowing expanding their development into the more innovative design and taking risks, we just have to be patient about it (what we want would take even more time to develop than the time to develop the present form of MMO).
Comments
They are called MUD's, stop complaining and go play one.
MMO companies are very in touch, in touch with teh money like they should be.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
People have been asking for a Virtual World for years now. NPCs with some life and purpose, factions which matter and not just in a "it takes 10 hours to get ally" sense. Where RPG isn't just three unimportant letters.
I know and have played plenty of games where I kill 10 gorillas for the Cap of Monster Slaying. I don't want for more opportunities to kill gorillas. But I'd love once again to enter a world rich in lore and wonder, where I felt like a tiny spec in a world that existed with or without me.
Hmm, haven't been part of something like that for years. Is it really there, and I've just missed it?
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
1. Right now there are more people who prefer a casual easy PvE-game with levels and a PvP minigame (arena) than one big sandboxy PvP Arena. Thats the way it is, no matter how we like it or not. Companies will try to go after the big part of the cake as usual, its all been said before.
2. The cries for change and new MMO game mechanics started about 2-3 years ago. I think I read more posts in the last year from frustrated players wanting something new than in the two years before that combined. I guess the non-conform crowd is growing. The problem is: Even if we were heard a year ago, developing a new MMO takes time. If someone picked up the new hype a year ago the corresponding game would only get released about 4-5 years after that. The mass of EQ-clones we are seeing today were conceived 4-5 years ago when WoW was still "small" compared to today. At that time the devs of the other companies watched WoWs succesfull start with envy and went straight to the drawing boards to develop a clone with some sort of variation. Thus I think we can expect games with new designs to appear in about 2-3 years as a minimum because the wish for these new designs surfaced only in recent months/years.
3. Next problem: High risk. In the days of a 10 mio player WoW it will be hard to convince anyone to invest money into a design that *may* be succesfull in 3-4 years time. Who knows what people will want in 4 years? Rather go the secure way of developing what "works". *Sigh*
The only thing we can do is wait and voice our opinion every now and then. We just have to hope that those 10 mio WoW players end their subscription out of boredom. Thats the point when new stuff WILL appear.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Great points I think you have hit the nail on the head.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
That is a ridiculous non-argument, and you should be ashamed.But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.
I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."
If you dont understand that, you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.
They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?
That is a ridiculous non-argument, and you should be ashamed.But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.
LOL! You turned my frown upside down. I will not press you further on this because you made me laugh.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Generic arguments are generic.
In the manufacturing industry, consumers would love their purchases to last forever. It is not in the interests of the manufacturers for products not to break, however.
The entertainment industry is different. People will not go to see a comedian they don't find funny; watch a film they don't enjoy or play a game that isn't fun.
Stupid generic arguments are stupid.
When you see a comedian you like do you laugh at every joke? When you see a movie do you walk out if you aren't stunned in the first 5 minutes? When you purchase a game, especially an MMO, do you always enjoy every second of it?
But arent we always looking to laugh at every joke, be enthralled from the start and enjoy every second. We have gotten used to settling because we know that we cannot have the things just the we want so we take what we can get. Companies know that we will pay for something even if it isn't exactly just what we want because it is close enough to fulfil a desire or need, even if not fully.
So the idea that the giving the people what they want is where the money is simple does not work. The money is filling the most general desire. And when trying to fulfil more than the most general need or desire cuts into the bottom line then companies will not go down that path but instead follow the path that leads to profit. With out regard to what the customer really wants.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
So when it comes to making something different in the malcontent market of MMORPGs, we hear expense and this long old argument which may have been true in 1999-2000. You are forgetting that at the time this happened no more than several hundred thousand played ANY kind of MMORPG, that now there are millions or tens of millions, and that many of those have only even started playing in the past 5 years.
The general appeal of such a game to the kinds of people who were playing MMORPGs in 1998 will not be the same as the general appeal to the kinds of people playing now. They are entirely different kinds of people coming from a broader swathe of society as the genre has moved from obscurity to mainstream notoriety.
You people need to stop bringing up those days like they're a rule that holds true to anything about today.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
But does a comedian deliberately inject unfunny jokes into his routine because giving the audience exactly what they want would be bad for business?
No. Some of those jokes aren't funny, but you can bet your ass that comedian wants every joke to go down well. So some might miss the mark, but it's not through any business acumen he might have, it's that sometimes we fail even tho we try. And sometimes we don't have time/energy to make the extra effort, so we put out B-grade material to fill the gaps.
But this isn't your orginal argument. You said "giving people what they want is bad for business" or some such nonsense. The fact is, in entertainment you have to give people as much of what they want as is possible, or someone else will. People might watch an average comedian if he's the best thing in town, but if the guy up the street is pure comic gold, they'll go there instead.
It is plainly not good business practice to deliberately and willfully avoid the wants and needs of your customers. Saying anything else is just argument for the sake of it.
I will play devil's advocate for a moment here, because there is one instance in which you are sort of right.
I believe that a lot of customers don't really know what they want. Hence, delivering what they ask for is no more guaranteed than delivering what they say they don't want. But that doesn't mean you should do this every time.
It's like a kid who says he never wants to be disciplined. He might say that's what he wants, but really he wants (even if he doesn't know it yet) to develop into a normal, healthy adult. Kids with no discipline are less likely to become well-adjusted adults.
That's stretching a bit, but it's a genuine case for not always giving people what they "want".
you're OUT OF TOUCH ! I'M out of tiiiime, but I'm out of my head, when you're not arround,
you're out of touch, I'M out of timeeee, but Im out of my heaaaad when youre not aarrrround, OH ! OH OH OH, OH OH OH *sing*
SOE and NGE-Star Wars Galalaxies:
Raph Koster: "It's like dumping the girlfriend who has always been patient and loving to chase after the supermodel who probably won't love you back."
For some reason, nothing makes me appreciate life like music. Good music, that is. And there's lots of good 80s music
http://www.youtube.com/v/NzPTjIWRh6I&rel=1
Ok I agree the comedian example was just bad. Also, my arguement is correct on some levels but not all. What you say above is true, and a better way of putting what I was saying. What we want is the perfect MMO, what we get, in the best situation, is one we can enjoy, but not exactly what we want. Companies appeal to the masses, I have found that people who post here are not the masses, most are not blind followers or sheep. So, this being said, I see the exception here not the rule.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
Ok I agree the comedian example was just bad. Also, my arguement is correct on some levels but not all. What you say above is true, and a better way of putting what I was saying. What we want is the perfect MMO, what we get, in the best situation, is one we can enjoy, but not exactly what we want. Companies appeal to the masses, I have found that people who post here are not the masses, most are not blind followers or sheep. So, this being said, I see the exception here not the rule.
Why do you have to do the self patting on the back commenting about "not blind followers or sheep". Do you really need to believe you are something extra ordinary?
I think we are getting it wrong here. MMORPGS have been dumbed down precisely listiening to what people wanted. People were tired of grinding and travelling and corpse runs, so they screamed for teleports and fast levelling and maps and radars and no CR. And what not. They screamed "I want fun! I want fun! I want fun!"
But now a quite big part of this people has realized that now MMROGPS are not oh so fun, and along with the ones that never wanted MMROGPS to be dumbed down are screaming for a more challenging gameplay again. Will they listen? I hope at least a couple of rather big or med companies will, but not any time soon.
Certainly at least 10M subscribers of WOW find the easy grinding, no corpse runs and teleports are more fun than unforgiving hardcore "challenge" gameplay.
I do not see any indication why MMORPG should not continue to go down the more casual approach. Not everyone wants a challenge. A lot of people are trying to relax and get AWAY from stress in their entertainment after work.
How I feel about it? Confused, to be honest. What exactly do you want to loot fully, if it's also a no item-based game?
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Playing: Final Fantasy Online: ARR, Destiny
Most memorable games for me: UO, GW1, LoTRO
Certainly at least 10M subscribers of WOW find the easy grinding, no corpse runs and teleports are more fun than unforgiving hardcore "challenge" gameplay.
I do not see any indication why MMORPG should not continue to go down the more casual approach. Not everyone wants a challenge. A lot of people are trying to relax and get AWAY from stress in their entertainment after work.
Well, I'm one of those 10M subscribers and I'm screaming for a more challenging MMORPG.
I said a big part and that's misleading. I meant not all of them, nor the majority, just a consierable amount of people. Of course this is just a guess, but if its only a 5 % of the WOW gamers, that means half a milion people , plus the ones not playing WOW and wanting a more challeing MMORPG, that's a lot of gamers that could make a couple of MMORPGS a success.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the MMO developers are going to listen to the likes of the 10 million people playing WoW, and not the one or two hundred who post on here regularly.
That said, I would definitely look for a game with more depth.
It's interesting, however, that you complain about instances, items, quests, etc., but you don't actually suggest what we're supposed to do in your hypothetical game, other than apparently spending a lot of time getting from point A to point X, and grinding to get money so we can repeatedly replace all of our gear after getting ganked and looted over and over again.
Just curious, what exactly do you have in mind?
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I think somebody else is "SO OUT OF TOUCH" to be frank with you.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Check this game out just been announced, it has gave me new hope
www.play-earthrise.com
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Nice rant, but the game companies and developers are paying attention to the players. Most of the players are ok with the present form of MMORPG format, and that these players are the majority. The minority are the ones who ask for changes, innovations, basically what you've mentioned above. But these people are the minority of the gamer population.
So who will the game companies focus on first? Of course they will focus on the majority of the players (more players = more $$$). But there are some game companies slowing expanding their development into the more innovative design and taking risks, we just have to be patient about it (what we want would take even more time to develop than the time to develop the present form of MMO).
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)