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griefing, gatecamps and the "can never catch-up" myths
Askatan
Member Posts: 313
this is a comment on some simply false information or wrong ideas I have been reading very often in many postings here...
statement A:
"there are too many griefers in low security space" or
"many (evil) gatecamps" or
"pirates shot my afk miner"
my comment:
you do not have to enter low sec space. EVER. if anyone else claims somethign different, they are trolls or noobs who've believed trolls before. p.s. don't mine afk in low sec. even the idea is comical.
you get a warning when you enter low sec. take it seriously.
pirating is NOT griefing. griefing is, when you abuse gameplay mechanics in a way that were not intended by its designer and do so only to spoil the fun of other players.
pirating, or getting attacked anywhere is always part of the design. and it is almost never just to spoil fun. gatecamps have a purpose. resources in EVE are not unlimited at limited amount of time, information gathering is critical, and so is preventing of enemy scouts gathering harmful information.
if you get attacked it is either to get money from selling/using your stuff, to prevent you to scout a system, to prevent you to mine a system or to extort money from you. all is fair in EVE, by design. it is supposed to work this way. not a griefing tactic nor abuse.
----------------
low sec is only dangerous if you don't follow few simply rules:
1) check your local chat. if the other 5 people in the system besides you have a sec rating of -10 and (even worse) are of the same alliance or (even much worse) from the same corporation, they might be an organized group who look for trouble.
you can: warp to a safespot ( a bookmark somewhere far away of everything) and / or cloak and wait for them to leave, or leave the system. or find out where they are, what they do and then decide. the directional scan can find them even if you are not in a probe ship. maybe they just do some PvE to get rid of their low sec rating 
do not dock if you don't have much time. if you dock, you might have a hard time undocking, cause they might camp the station.
statement B:
"you cannot avoid gatecamps / griefing / evil hardcore players praying on unsuspecting noobs"
my comment:
because you never ever have to go to low sec in the first place it is not really true. on the other hand, you are not completely save anywhere.
if you WANT to go to low sec and want to avoid gatecaps however, little work is necessary.
use your STAR MAP!!
------> goto the system you want to enter. check "ships destroyed in the last hour" or "pods killed in the last hour". compare "jumps in the last hour" to "average pilots in the last 30 minutes" and "docked and active". if barely anyone jumps in or out, but a huge number of pilots is in there, it might be a gatecamp. if a surprisingly high number of ships has been destroyed, it might be heavy PvP action. maybe a gatecamp.
if there is no one in the system, it cannot be camped. if all are docked, then it can not be camped. the star map is very powerful.
if you want to be sure, get into a covert ops ship. I personally have a buzzard. easy to get, cheap and little time to train; plus, it warps at 13.5 AU/sec faster than any other ship. jump into the system and with the help of the covert ops cloaking device, you have a good chance not getting killed even if the gate was camped.
or: wait a few minutes on the gate. simply ASK people who come out or people who fly in if the gate is camped. this is, after all, a multiplayer game
last resort tactic: use a shuttle. every 2 hour old noob can afford it. shuttles have low sig and high agility. plus they are valueless. under certain conditions (NOT however when they want you not to spy) a shuttle will not be attacked. it is very difficult to get a lock in time and can neither mine nor is it a challenge or anything like that. that said, do never ever use a shuttle to transport really valuable goods...
you can even log off, log in with an alt character and check the system.
---------------
so you see: all those complaints of griefing root in poor knowledge of the game and poor information "provided" by people who do not like EVE or often have never even played it.
statement C:
"noobs have no chance in EVE because of all the older players with millions of SPs"
or: "noobs cannot "catch up" to older players"
my comment:
biggest bullshit ever.
I admit, it sure looks like it, from what you might think of the game if you look it up in a dictionary or a short definition of what EVE is about. but then it turns out to be completely different of what you expect.
biggest problem in EVE is expectations based on other games. I will give you a few examples of how EVE "leveling" works.
Guild Wars:
EVE skills work like a guild wars “build”. It is relatively easy to get the skills to be a “trapper” or “energy denial”. It is difficult to master the proper use. I love guild wars, because it allows you to play very different roles in PvP without much additional work.
To play a tackler in a alliance battle in EVE, in PvP, requires almost no skill training. You fly a cheap ship with very cheap modules which require also no training. Every noob can be a tackler. The alliance will buy you every ship, even if you are killed a hundred times, if you play this role in a battle.
In GW, you have to enter a city to reskill your char. In EVE, you dock, change the ship and now you have a different role. e.g. You change from tackler to Battleship. Battleships require little training as well. Now you've changed from snaring/rooting enemies to doing some heavy damage. The alliance will provide you with a ship.
And while you wont do as much damage as a long time player, you will do almost as much. In a fleet of 50-400 people it makes little difference if you have the “cruise missile” skill at IV (maybe 3 days as a new player) or at V (4-5 weeks or more as a new player). And that level V will get you less than 5% more damage than level IV. (don't believe me, cause it says exactly 5% more? Math can be tricky. Just calculate it. I am right). Even a 5 year old EVE player will not achieve a significantly higher damage output. The hyper expensive faction modules which do not require more skills than any noob has, are rarely used in such battles.
EVE manages to pull it off that skillpoints (level or XP in other MMOGs) do matter little in group PvP or “guild” /alliance PvP. They do somewhat matter in solo PvE environments, where highly skill and money expensive specialized ships with low loss rate are used. I prefer the Nighthawk, a Caldari Command ship which requires extensive training, is de facto impossible to ensure, but is the ultimate solution in survivability combined with decent firepower below Capital sized ships.
But again, a new player can choose the Drake, a battlecruiser, which requires only a tiny fraction of the skills, is nearly as powerful, and is cheap and well to insure. No wonder the drake is a favourite of pirates.
Especially in PvP EVE is so much more fair and accessible than basically any other MMOG. I find it weird that so many obviously false ideas and rumours are spread here.
The history of EVE alliances (e.g. BoB vs Goonswarm) shows that a bunch of noobs could threaten an alliance of old and experienced characters and claim and hold a 0.0 region by its own. They used basically throwaway ships and modules to drive back a fleet of very expensive and specialized ships.
WoW:
Imagine you are a rogue in WoW. Can you ever “catch up” to a paladin in survivability or to a magic user in magic? No. You are a rogue and will always stay one.
EVE is different. You can be a rogue, dock at a station and transform into a hunter or any other class. If you start specializing in Battleships, you still can learn to fly Interceptors. You can go from a slow, totally unstealthy, high damage output “class” to a sneaky and bitchingly fast “class” that specializes in speed tanking and snaring or disabling of big ships. Or you can change to a pure scout class like Covert Ops, all in the blink of a eye.
Yes, that requires skillpoints. But to do one thing does not require much. Being able to be every class in the book, that is what a 5 year old player can do. But he cannot be everything at the same time. A Battleship flown by a high skillpoint player is vulnerable to an interceptor or a tackling frigate of any noob. In WoW a level 70 player of even the worst PvP class is nothing to fear from a new player. Not even from 100 level 5 chars. In EVE it is totally different.
And another thing: what I really hated in WoW was the fact that I could not collect or produce everything. I walked by a valuable resource and could not pick it up. In EVE you can do everything. You can mine and produce everything. You just have to have the skillpoints.
Again: a older player can produce more and mine more efficiently, but if you specialize, very soon you will hit a cap. After that you simply can not get better.
I have a Hulk, the very best and most expensive mining ship. And the skillpoints to fly it. I never did. Yet. I like the fact that I can do it, but it does not give me any real advantage over any new player in anything but mining. And a new player who is crazy about mining will very soon be just as “good” as I am. But if I happen to find a very valuable asteroid I could make money from it. I could make minerals to produce something myself. I could be self sufficient and produce the missiles I need by myself. In WoW I could not. I do not have that freedom.
It's the freedom to play every “class” that comes from that skill system.
More skills does not so much mean a growth in power but in flexibility.
Any new player can catch up fast to any experienced player of such “class” or “profession”. And other than in WoW, he can then choose to “catch up” in another “class” or “profession”. Exploration and covert ops, mining, missioning, ratting, pirating, logistics for alliances, tackling, production of ships, modules, ammo and almost everything you can buy in EVE. And much more.
I blame the "guiding hand" principle in games like WoW that makes people expect that because something is not obvious, it is therefore not possible.
Many players are frustrated, because sth "does not work", when it actually does, just a little different from what they know. Often EVE provides such advanced tools that people simply do not expect to find them and never even look for them.
one last thing: go out and do something different when you get bored. Join an Alliance. get new enemies. kick some ass. Don't blame EVE for being boring when you choose to only do one boring "profession" like missioning or trading.
------------------------------
an edit:
all this talk about gatecamps and "harsh death penalties" in some threads is basically troll baiting. people like those guys from this absurd PvE server discussion know very well that many things they claim is simply not true. they treat these forums like their own MMOG.
it is futile to even answer them or post in their threads.
every point they make is so self-contradicting it is almost ridiculous.
those "harsh death penalties" apply to meaningful PvE (with expensive specialized ships) much more than to meaningful alliance warfare. there you dont lose your ship, you lose a ship payed for by others (at least for ships they put noobs in, this is standard procedure). you never lose skillpoints in EVE.
it is basically impossible.
sure, if you want to be a solo pawnmobile, you have to undergo extensive training. but when is PvP really 1 vs 1, or in other words,:
in a 1 vs 1, when is it ever PvP fitted combat ship vs PvP fitted combat ship? NEVER
in solo PvP it is almost always pirate against miner (no combat fitting possible) or pirate against industrial or pirate vs PvE fitted mission runner.
if those guys really ever played EVE, or understood it, they would know that what they have in mind when they think of PvP is de facto non-existent.
the system makes any "fair" fight impossible, because as Sun Tzu said, you should never start a battle you are not going to win.
that is why being smart and gathering intelligence is far more important in EVE than in PvE games like WoW. skillpoints matter little. what matters if you are the guy in the trading vessel or the combat vessel.
Comments
I played EvE.
- You really cannot catch up to vets.
- Gatecampers really do ruin the game.
- There are no avatars or ship interiors or livable spaces. You just play a spaceship.
- Combat = click 'orbit', click 'activate gun', watch for a while while hovering over your warp button to escape if needed.
No offense. You wrote a great article and you're entitled to your opinion. But so am I.
And just to be clear... I liked the game at the very beginning, but it got tedious trying to get any good ships. You gotta grind and grind through missions. Then you get what you think is a decent ship, and lose it in .15 seconds to a gate camper.
- Phos
A nice, long, even well-written post with much truth in it. Sadly, I am rather certain none of the people who are complaining about the things you point out will actually read it. Many people have pointed out the exact same things to them over and over again and still people believe the myths that they gather from other people who have no idea about the game, who played for 5 days and flew into 0.0 on their fourth with their Rookie ship on autopilot. -.-
It'd be awesome if some people debating to join EVE would actually read this, since it points out obvious errors in the trolling posts that are so common on the boards. But then again, most of those probably don't have the attention span to fully read the post, judging from the time they spend on actually learning what EVE is about In-Game.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Is this your dissertation? If so, F-Grade!
Edit: Statement C quite lacks of credibility with these broken statements, don`t you think so
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I recently returned to EVE and I am having a TON of fun playing again. That being said I would like to address 2 things.
1 - The catching up thing. To be able to compete with a large majority of ships out there (BS,s HAC's, etc) you need a lot of SP's. Sure, can you smack some mods on a t1 frig and be a effective tackler? Sure, you can certainly add something to a gang. I think people are more talking about pretty much everyone is flying around in T2 ships and if you want to be able to compete with them your going to have to spend about 1/2 a year training skills. I have to admit, 1/2 year seems like a pretty long time.
2 - Your right, you can avoid a lot of stuff by not going into low sec but this in no way shape or form makes you safe which is what I think the majority of people complain about. There is plenty of high sec suicide ganking and ransom war decs going on for everyone. Sure, you could stay in a starter corp your entire life but really...
Eve is a great game, it's just not for everyone. If you want a game where there's NO chance your going to get killed, EVE isnt for you.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Sadly enough it seems that you are one of these people that believe opinions can never be wrong. Just because you are entitled to your opinion this does not mean you cannot be wrong and you sir are completely wrong.
thanks anyway
I am happy that at least one found it worth reading...
sometimes long posts are the only way to disprove all that silly rumours...
I agree, lowsec, nullsec are either for people who want a higher risk vs reward ratio and plenty of money can be made in highsec.
Couple other bits of advise:
1. Don't move expensive items via standard industrial ship, even in highsec. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a couple guys in cheap ships can suicide squad you and your 50,000,000 worth of cargo.
2. Your corporation should match your goals for the short-term, but don't let it dictate your long range goals. While jumping from Corp to Corp will do nothing for your employment history, babysitting in a .9 system to prevent one fool from having his 500,000 ISK worth of veldspar stolen by another fool is only entertaining so long.
3. If an offer looks to good to be true, it is. Scamming is a legimitate method of gaining income. No matter how much you feel wronged, it was your own fault. Even better, if you feel like you're getting scammed send a message to Phaden, I probably won't read your message, but I will copy and paste "it's a scam" into the text bar. Heck I'm right half of the time at least.
4. Pirates pay to play the same as you. Since so many people provide them with easy targets many of them are overconfident. Don't be afraid of them, be afraid of the ones who know how to work together.
5. Proud of that shiny new Rokh or Hyperion? Don't be, showing it off will inevitably lead to it's loss. Losing an expensive ship hurts, both in your income potential (lvl 4 mission runner) and your interest in playing the game. The first time I took a Vexor out I was nervous as hell that I'd lose it in the first mission, guess what I was right. But at least the second time I had figured out the most important lesson; wait until you have a Tier II tank (see 6) and the skills to not lose it the first time someone takes a shot at you. It's right in the original game guide: Don't Fly What you Can't Afford to Lose
6. Work on your tank. If you ever think your tank is good enough, odds are you'll lose your ship the very next fight/mission. Remember that a mission tank is nothing like a PvP tank.
7. Positioning and movement are just as important as shields and armor. if you're getting drone spammed at 50km and all you have to counter is blasters, odds are you won't even make it to the fight. Don't be afraid to warp out. Don't go anywhere you think is unsafe with a cloak or a warp stab, or two, but not two cloaks, because that'd be silly.
2) Agreed. It seems many people seem to think that Highsec = I can go away and make coffee while mining an asteroid. No, you are never -safe- in EVE, but in High-Sec, it's difficult to get killed if you just watch out a little bit.
Anyway, I agree as well, EVE is not for everyone. It never will be. And contrary to what some strange people say, the people that actively play EVE like the game this way, so it won't change. If you don't like it, maybe it's just better to find another game.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
being able to compete does not necessarily mean being able to fly exactly the same ship. And T2 ships... getting HACs or Interceptors does not take 6 months. getting command ships does. NOt every tech 2 ships needs a lot of training time. And dont confuse high sec with 0.0 or low sec. As I said... if the loss ratio, like in PvE is small, people love tech 2 ships. in 0.0 tech 2 is often impractical and too expensive.
and of course. there is no total security in EVE. I just found out that many do never use those tools to make life easier.... I'd say that 90% of low sec is always camp free... so usually you can simply avoid a camp...
2) Agreed. It seems many people seem to think that Highsec = I can go away and make coffee while mining an asteroid. No, you are never -safe- in EVE, but in High-Sec, it's difficult to get killed if you just watch out a little bit.
Anyway, I agree as well, EVE is not for everyone. It never will be. And contrary to what some strange people say, the people that actively play EVE like the game this way, so it won't change. If you don't like it, maybe it's just better to find another game.
You make a good point about gangs. I think MMO players today are so used to the solo PvP idea that they don't like the idea of having to work in a well in a team. But I also understand that every time I have ever got ganked ratting / probed out in a mission or hit a gate camp the ships have pretty much ALL been t2 ships with t2 fittings to match. I have to admit, it would be nice that if i got ganked ratting in 0.0 that I actually had a chance to defend myself. But then again thats also why I rat in a Vexor with all t1 fittings. Blow it up, I don't care. Insurance will cover the ship and mods
Oh, I also don't wear implants.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Lots of great advice in this thread, no reason for me to expound on it.
But I can give you an example. I have an alt account that I began training 6 months ago. He can effectively fly a Sniper Rokh (Battleship) with Tech 2 fittings on everything except the guns. But when I fly in fleet, the difference is negligible so I'm still effective.
Now, I could have Tech 2 guns had I wanted to, but I chose to level up a completely different gun type (projectiles, Rokh uses hybrid) and now have a fully tech 2 Vagabond (Heavy assault Cruiser) with Tech 2 medium projectile weapons. My only remaining weakness is I need to train 2 skills from level 4 to 5 and I'll match almost any vet out there.
So, in 6 months I was able to effectively train up two main ship types that are used all the time by veterans. Also, along the way I learned to fly a missile boats (Drake Battle Cruiser and Raven Battleships) to an average level (as opposed to my other account which is a missile boat expert that matches any vet out there, and he's 7 months old. I can also fly cheap industrials, destroyers when necessary and am now working on some research skills to help make some cash from research modules.
Now, its true, it took me a while to get here, (6-7 months) however I had a ton of fun flying other ships till I got here. I first started flying a Drake 3 weeks after I started EVE, and I still think its the best PVE tanking ship in the game. I actually fly level 4's with it and let it soak up the damage while my other character comes in with the sniper battleship and kills off the big stuff.
Oh yes, one more thing, I've lost almost all of my ships to gatecamps/gangs of small ships like Interceptors, Interdictors and Recon ships. Only in one fleet engagement was I killed by long range Battleship guns.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sticky Nomination
"And thus I clothe my naked villany/ with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ/ and seem a saint when most I play the devil." Shakespeare's Richard III Act I Scene 3.
i agree with the op.i subed some months ago and started with my learning skills,while i was farming epic gear in wow.now almost all learning skills are up to 5 lvl and i am ready to roll.so what if i cant ride a titan?ill be happy to play my roll in my little ship.
Sadly enough it seems that you are one of these people that believe opinions can never be wrong. Just because you are entitled to your opinion this does not mean you cannot be wrong and you sir are completely wrong.
Exactly, QFT and all that.
What's the saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
EVE is freaking huge! Basically, if you're daft enough to enter a highly camped system (and they really do tend to only stay in one area) more than once then you deserve to be killed. Open up your map and have a look around, choose options that will allow you to see how many ships have been destroyed in the past hour, then avoid the red blobs! It's really as simple as that.
There's so many low-sec places that are quiet, but yes, you will eventually run into pirates. Just always keep your eyes on local chat and be aligned to your safe spot for an instant warp.
-iCeh
if they make it sticky, I clean my up my grammar and my spelling
and maybe I'd give it better structuring....
Its the "Can never catch-up" part that has always kept me from playing Eve, i've tried the trial a few times only to be overwhelmed by guides that plan for years ahead just as I began getting in to it.
I'm sure Eve would appeal to me, the openess and ability to find yourself either telling a yarn of how you did well or knocking back a few beers when it all went pear shaped sounds good, its just getting out the CC and making the commitment that is hard, a bit like marriage.
Make that 2.
I'm one of those who played EvE for 2 hours and trash it as i got bored to tears for that feeling of "wandering" into space and doing nothing fun.
Your post doesn't change my mind, as i still think the game stinks for taking so long before getting into it, but i do appreciate the way the game mechanics and economy is running.
Now they just need to figure out a way to smooth the learning curve and make the first few hours, days, weeks compeling and fun. (And they don't have to ruin what's already good doing so)
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
Nice post m8
Couldn't agree more especially on the GC issue. What people need to see is that part of the game is learning to overcome those problems. It's really not that hard. You lose a couple of ships and keep playing, you'll figure it out.
Btw IMHO the Atron with a MWD is a good choice for low sec gate camps. I've never had anyone be able to get a lock on me. Sometimes there just not practical tho.
all this talk about gatecamps and "harsh death penalties" in some threads is basically troll baiting. people like "baff" or those guys from this absurd PvE server discussion know very well that many things they claim is simply not true. they treat these forums like their own MMOG.
it is futile to even answer them or post in their threads.
every point they make is so self-contradicting it is almost ridiculous. those "harsh death penalties" apply to meaningful PvE (with expensive specialized ships) much more than to meaningful alliance warfare. there you dont lose your ship, you lose a ship payed for by others (at least for ships they put noobs in, this is standard procedure). you never lose skillpoints in EVE.
it is basically impossible.
sure, if you want to be a solo pawnmobile, you have to undergo extensive training. but when is PvP really 1 vs 1, or in other words,:
in a 1 vs 1, when is it ever PvP fitted combat ship vs PvP fitted combat ship? NEVER
in solo PvP it is almost always pirate against miner (no combat fitting possible) or pirate against industrial or pirate vs PvE fitted mission runner.
if those guys really ever played EVE, or understood it, they would know that what they have in mind when they think of PvP is de facto non-existent.
the system makes any "fair" fight impossible, because as Sun Tzu said, you should never start a battle you are not going to win.
that is why being smart and gathering intelligence is far more important in EVE than in PvE games like WoW. skillpoints matter little. what matters if you are the guy in the trading vessel or the combat vessel.
games like WoW force a "fair" pairing. but makes it totally unfair again by giving people with epic gear/raiding equipment an advantage that normal players can never catch up with. truely. often because they have a class or specialization that is useless in raids.
I can see you don't actively play, so I shall enlighten you:
Not the case anymore, Arena Season 1 gear moved to the honor vendors a few patches back, there is absolutely zero excuses these days for a PvP player to not be able to aquire epic gear making him as viable in PvP as anyone else.
Combine that with the Badge of Justice rewards, some of which are T5 quality, and ANY player who wants to get decent gear is able too - with a 5 man group no less.
With the addition of Resilience as a stat, raiding gear is crap for PvP anyways.
yes, I have to admit, I stopped playing a year ago...
sounds like a reasonable system now
Dear OP,
While I like the effort I feel what you are saying is misleading.
No matter how much you think a gatecamp will not happen, it happens even if you fly safe. This game is prolly not for someone who doesnt like randomly being killed because the option just stay in safe space the whole time you play is ridiculous. I bet no one here who plays including you can say they havent been gate camped.
My second issue is you actually can not catch up to the vets. Honestly you may be useful in groups and etc. but reality is that doesnt mean you are "catching up", you are just fufilling a different role. Trust me i played ever for a couple years and will tell you first hand, some vets will never be caught up to and saying you can be a decent pirate in another ship doesnt change the fact that 1v1 you will get owned by most players playing since the game came out.
Thx for your time
How many times does this have to be said around here before people actually figure it out ? Oh well here it goes again.
No, you will never catch up to a vet in total skillpoints but THIS DOESN'T MATTER. You can catch up in points where it matters. The only thing a vet can do is fly more races ships or do some other aspects of the game such as manufacturing or research. There is a finite number of points in each skill set whether it be gunnery, missles, navigation, spaceship command or whatever.
Example:
New Player trains up to fly the Minmatar Vagabond and trains up to use Tech 2 medium autocannons. He also trains up his navigation, engineering and electronics skills to fit and use the ship effectively. This will only take a few months. (I don't know the exact time and I am not about to do the math but it isn't a year that's for sure)
Vet who has been playing for years can already fly this ship but maybe has gone and trained up to fly a Cerberus and the missle skills and while at it maybe he trained up to fly an Ishtar with all of the drone skills needed.
Now of course the vet has way more skillpoints than the new player but no matter which ship the vet jumos into many of those skillpoints will have no effect whatsoever on the other ships. The skills needed to fly the vagabond will not help in the Ishtar since it does not use projectile guns, the drone skills the Ishtar would benefit would not mean anything in the Cerberus or the Vagabond and the missles skills the Cerberus needs will have no effect on the Ishtar or the Vagabond.
I hope this helps people understand that catching up in total skillpoints is not equal to catching up in effectiveness within a shiptype which can be done relatively easily.