Yes you are extremly right,WAR is a big WoW BG,soo stay away from WAR and play WoW,tell your friends to do the same.
Yep pretty much what he said. You will not do well at WAR dont even waste your time. Wait for wotlk trust me on this one WoW players are not cut out for a pvp game.
Which just illustrates the flaw of the design. Where is the fluency, City gets sacked, move to another spot, set up your base there, have the options to build up certain cities/bases in favor of others due to player activity. Things like that. There isn't. It's all set, nothing's going to change if people walk into your city, you wait a while or kick them out yourselves and everything is back as it was. Not falling back to another position on the map and making your stand there or anything.
Yes, population balance is a problem I know, that's why a 2faction system doesn't really work well in my opinion.
Can you imagine how much War and Chaos it would have been if all the WAR races would actually have had their own side? Now that's war! and population imbalance would have seemed a much less problem.
I'm sure they are doing the best they can but in my belief, the design is very rigid and static and much like a BG in that regard.
I kinda have to agree from information i've taken in i agree with what you say.
But where you say "set your base up there" i thought that all the cities were static and not dynamic or player made. The cities are just....there... so once you know a scenerio its going to be the same over and over and over again - arent keeps in warhammer just building already there too one location all the time, whether fortified or not, and restrictions in place.?
Ever tought of putting it in warhammer context maybe? This ain't AoC nomad/barbarian fest where you setup your backwater citie elsewhere when the previous one is destroyed. Thank god. The warhammer races have lost very important cities , then taken em back. Sometimes not. It's the license whole philosophy , endless war . Order races have been under attack for centuries. Getting sacked , burned and killed. They eventually retake their cities ,then reconstruct. I don't see anything wrong with that. Only someone always seeing glasses half-empty , like Pheace , would.
It's also a game. As no player would like to see years , decades or centuries go by inbetween taking and retaking. ( Like in the warhammer world lore). They just made the processus playable.
For anyone who just dumb down this game to the point of calling it a "big WOW BG" .Can you please just stay there and play the new expansion/grindfest of WOW?. It would save a lot of headaches in both camps. Using broad similarities is what people that have no arguments would do.
It's pvp , has pve quest component and its campaigns reset ... so it's like a BG . Right? Wow , you're a real genius.
But with AoC its all player made therefore I think it will have more meaning. You hold your city/keep for as long as you can, its not detirmined by a timer, it detirmined by strength and tactics. In warhammer there wil ultimately be a timer on everything, whatever the outcome the whole thing magically resets. You can't craft building, you probably will be able to craft siege weapons (from feedback). Everything else though is static, the buildings are in the same place each time, the lay of the land the same each time.
I think its going to be different from Daoc in a few ways.
It sounds more like an Alliance Battle in Guild Wars, but on a larger map, with quests in there and some control points on the map and a timer. ther difference being just a few cities/maps.
People will play this game and not give a shit about the lore you know, they will just see two sides, simple as that. People will also make WoW comparisons for years to come thats something your going to have to get used to whether you like it or not.
look im still going to play war, its just you seem to have been brainwashed into making out the game is something its not. its not complicated it doesnt need to be dumbed down.
Meaning doesn't come from how the building is put in place or if the location move. How rebuilding in a slightly different location after being defeated not a "Reset Timer"? . Players will care because they will lose time and resources from the destroyed city . Nothing to do with having more meaning.
Players will care in WAR because of faction/race pride ( much more powerful than a guild one imo) . Losing a capital city have detrimental effects on your whole race. Victory gives you loot , buffs , unlocking of dungeons/misc stuffs . i can only imagine the feeling , finally winning a capital after 2-3 months of fighting to get there.You don't just do the whole faction war content in a week , then reset and repeat. Did you even read about this game?
Winning in AoC give Blood money to buy pvp gear, amazing BG/Arena concept. Great sinkhole of time and money to keep people playing I guess. Always losing and rebuilding will keep players busy grinding for mats and money. If it's too easy and cheap to reconstruct , losing it have no meaning.
I don't see any similarities between that and guild wars alliance battle at all. Even the scenario instance i've played at gamesday had bigger scope than any fight i've had in GW. Nothing to do with being brainswashed. I just know what I am talking about , unlike you it seems.
Anyways , hopefully you'll drift to AoC. Since you seem to think that WAR is a very simple game with no substance.
The problem with MMO's today is that all people can do is compare elements of gameplay to WoW. The key malfunction with that logic is that you can't even think outside of what you got in WoW. Asking questions in comparison to WoW shows that you don't have the mental ability to think outside that realm. RvR is not a BG. It is not like a BG. It is not similar to a BG. There are tons of videos that explain RvR. Go to youtube and search for the topic. WoWheads just can't get it. Stop trying to filter games through WoW's gameplay.
This is what worries me. I have watchet podcasts about RvR, just as much as the average guy interested in this game without being a big fan. System looks complex, all those graphics with arrows, points won there and then having an impact here. OK. But, my concern is about the battle itself. I mean, you can have the best system, but if battles are meaningless due to a lack of death penalty, then all the system is meaningless.
For your information I started playing EQ in it's first year, until PoP. Yes I have played WOW too, but you know, so many people have, it's good to know how WAR is different from it, because a lot of gamers want something different, me included.
Death penalty is not something that everyone thinks makes PvP meaningful.
PvP is meaningful if
it impacts the reason you play
It leads to realm success or failure
It opens up new possibilities in gameplay
It leads to bigger battles that yield rewards in terms of land (cities) and gear (not important to me)
NDA is still ruling, we are still restricted on the amount of information available/shareable. On the other hand, the game is still being shaped. It might be a bit too early to drawn fast conclusions.
There is one major difference when talking about RvR (not just PvP) in WAR. The game is the RVR, its not an add on, a minor side issue. RVR is the game. RVR is far bigger than PVP. Its a Realm against another, not just a duel between 2 persons.
People criticize about the lacking in death penalty. That is not the way the game is supposed to be played. Penalty is not on the player, its on the REALM. Losing the fight means little to any single player personally, but the realm may be suffering. In the old DAoC days, if you lose in the frontiers you lose relics, you lose combat effectiveness as a realm and you lose access to good dungeons like DF.
If you only focus on yourself in the game, and measures everything by how much you can loot after killing a single enemy, or the death penalty suffered by yourself (or how far you can grief one single enemy) or how well you can win a duel ..., if all you care for is yourself, maybe you would not enjoy the game as much as it was supposed to be. WAR is a realm game, feel the realm to feel the game.
Ever tought of putting it in warhammer context maybe? This ain't AoC nomad/barbarian fest where you setup your backwater citie elsewhere when the previous one is destroyed.
Ow I'm just another AoC Fanboy then? I think I saw one video of that game with the horse once. I don't follow AoC, I was going off random thoughts.
My points stand about what I thought would make this game a better thing and nothing you said beyond that point makes any difference to that.
I agree. Sure, on the surface, there's less hassle without a death penalty. But it indirectly destroys the fun factor since the meaning of death is not there and you just keep throwing yourself at the enemy over and over again. There shouldn't be a very harsh penalty, but there needs to be something way harsher than what WoW has. Also, I think people's gold and belongings should be at stake (with some sort of insurance system for those who don't want to take risks.. ie, pve) when defending a city. But that's for another debate.
Death penalty in WAR (as far as I understand it) is your death = points for your enemy.
Giving points to the enemy by dying is a BAD THING. You really don't want t do it, so fight hard not to die please all you destruction players
The biggest problem with the design I have right now is that in the end, apart from capturing a King or something you do it all for nothing. Nothing is permanent in capturing your enemies city, it all gets undone afterwards.
That's the biggest point where it resembles a BG imo. It may take long to do but in the end it's a neverending selfrepeating tredmill towards the main city over and over again.
Don't forget there are six capital cities (3 dest, 3 Order) and each will be a different nut to crack. If each one takes a month (or two??) to take, that's a year of gameplay right there and that is only each one falling once.
I really don't know how it will go. Its possible that Dest players will have a hardon for sacking the dorf's capital and so they continualy attack Dwarfs zones ignoring all the other Order cities forever just out of spite. It is possible, but I doubt it will happen. It' s more likely to be a mixture, and because of this each will be different enough to feel fresh. Each will have different terrain, meaning the need for different tactics etc.
I know where the OP is coming from. He is worried that WAR will be Alterac Valley on steroids (before the changes made that BG into a race to kill NPCs) and that an open world RVR fight will be like a never ending AV without the instance. I have some sympathy with this, but feel the nature of a constantly moving front line, and therefore changing terrain and objectives will ensure it will not be AV in drag.
I know where the OP is coming from. He is worried that WAR will be Alterac Valley on steroids
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
Really is no comparison. Some of the scenarios used to achieve the city siege stage might be like that, but everything you do pve/rvr wise helps the effort. I mean in WOW if there was something similar i could have handled some of the grinding if it actually meant something for my faction in the end but since WOW doesn t have anything remotely close the comparison ends there. The war effirt in WAR is all around you. I can t find the podcast or maybe im too lazy but they said EVERYTHING you do helps the war effort to get to the city siege stage. To me thats just great. You ll get some old DAOC eel leading up to it with keeps and siege in the open world which is awesome to me they added that. As stated though it won t be as easy as winning a few matches or capturing a few keeps, alot goes into getting to that stage. Also when or if your faction does win the city siege stage alot of raid type things open up. One i remember hearing was you can for example fight the cities blacksmith for some nice weapons and gear. I m sure differnt enemy city merchants will be available to fight for items etc. Maybe the head chef of the city drops great food who knows but i know the blacksmith one has been quoted somewhere Anyways it s not AV on crack as you can see and i know i f missed a ton i m sure, which means more fun for all of us Enjoy!!
I think, thats why moust mmorpgs fail atm, and WoW starting to losse its population( little by little), becouse non of then offers good pvp. i as looking forward to WAR, but not, when i see its Wow bg, with no death penalty.... i think i will pass...
No point in tactics,You get gang banged, and respawn somewhere, to get gang banged again!( or you do gang banging to opposite side) People just like headless chickens drop in to battle ( hey, if i die, worse that going to happen: 14 secs of respawn time)
I think if there would be death penalty, people would think more, and find ways and tactics how to kill someone, and stay alive,
PVP now - Try to do moust damage and die with no penalty( repaet again) (mages in wow bgs with arcane explosion)
PVP should be - Survive by trying to kill someone, So that each kill you did would mean something to you, and your oppenent, not just list in moust kills.(if you die, be punished, so next time you would think before jumping into fight)
OP obviously never played DAOC so deserves an answer. While it might appear that dying in DAOC (or WAR) has no consequence, they normally design the game so that you lose anywhere from 10-20 minutes of time before you can rejoin the fight. The real prize in DAOC is realm points. (will be true for WAR as well) You earn them for killing the enemy (or healing your side) and the more you earn, (and the more quickly you earn them) the sooner you can spend them on cool new super powers. (that may benefit either PVE or PVP) Every minute you are out of the action is another minute you aren't earning any realm points. (WAR will probably rename them). Not earning realm points is bad, so people will work very hard to maximize the rate that they earn them. Regular teams will form where player perfect working together. In DAOC there were single 8 man groups that could decimate 2 or 3 times that numbers before dying. Strategies were developed to take and hold Keeps that let one side rack up enormous realm point gains, (like maybe 75k in one night, vs 4 or 5 K for the average zerging player) While many folks will run around in a disorganized zerg, there will be many who figure out strategies to perfect their craft. Regardless of skill level, everyone will try hard to survive and stay in the action as much as they can. They'll make sure rezzer's are available, work hard not to die needlessly, and it will be far more rewarding in the end than you've ever experienced in a WOW battleground.
Ahh the good old day's of real Hero's. I remember going in on Black company In UO with 5 guys and we demolished like 30 of them.(not saying we didn't die)
To those who have only WoW'ed there used to be a day when a 5 man team could do this cause the healer in the group knew to res the corpse next to him and everyone cross healed. Ahhh the good old day's
I Long for those day's to return Concequence in pvp FTW!!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I know where the OP is coming from. He is worried that WAR will be Alterac Valley on steroids
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
This is a good system, I imagine, but you see all of it it's just two things, quests and battles.
About quests maybe it will be interesting, maybe having a Commander organizing how the quests are done and by who and all that.
But the battles, and maybe the quests will also be really battles to win an objective if the parts can interact, are what the system is made of.
So if battles are an Alterac Valley thing, the whole system is meaningless, it doesn't matter the complexity of the system behind that, because the basic element, what you really spend your time on, is boring.
I know where the OP is coming from. He is worried that WAR will be Alterac Valley on steroids
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
This is a good system, I imagine, but you see all of it it's just two things, quests and battles.
About quests maybe it will be interesting, maybe having a Commander organizing how the quests are done and by who and all that.
But the battles, and maybe the quests will also be really battles to win an objective if the parts can interact, are what the system is made of.
So if battles are an Alterac Valley thing, the whole system is meaningless, it doesn't matter the complexity of the system behind that, because the basic element, what you really spend your time on, is boring.
With the Public Quest system as it is I'd go out on a limb and say that system will possibly sway the outcome more then just mindless killing, of course 'the killing' counts for somthing but I'd be saying something lke the Public Quests will be like stage one of the attackers quest may be taking down the defences, whereas the counter-PQ would be somthing like getting ammo for the seige weapons, both will add aid to either side.
Funny thing really as we keep commenting on the AV model yet before it became a zergrush and the NPCs taken out, in the earier days I'd say it was very much the same were doing a handin quest spawned guards and the big elite monsters, it wouldn't shock me if the PQs ended up spawning dragons and trolls when it came to the city seiging.
I think, thats why moust mmorpgs fail atm, and WoW starting to losse its population( little by little), becouse non of then offers good pvp. i as looking forward to WAR, but not, when i see its Wow bg, with no death penalty.... i think i will pass... No point in tactics,You get gang banged, and respawn somewhere, to get gang banged again!( or you do gang banging to opposite side) People just like headless chickens drop in to battle ( hey, if i die, worse that going to happen: 14 secs of respawn time)
I think if there would be death penalty, people would think more, and find ways and tactics how to kill someone, and stay alive, PVP now - Try to do moust damage and die with no penalty( repaet again) (mages in wow bgs with arcane explosion) PVP should be - Survive by trying to kill someone, So that each kill you did would mean something to you, and your oppenent, not just list in moust kills.(if you die, be punished, so next time you would think before jumping into fight)
The problem with heavier death penalty is that it not only alienates casual players, it actually reduces the number of real PVP fans willing to risk death. Intead ofmaking the game more fun, it limits the number of fights drastically. If the penalty is one peice of your gear, everyone will fight naked or use crap gear and never bring out the good stuff. Look at Eve where the loss of a great ship is so devestating to a player he stops using it and only fights when the odds are stacked in his favour.
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult ) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all
I know posting this here is asking for flames, but I really intend to buy the game and I'm honestly worried about this, so I'd like to be proved wrong. BTW I asked the same question at the only-war general forum (with same nick, you can go and check) and in the end it wasn't clear that WAR ¬= Big WOW BG. Specially because of the non existant death penalty that I'm afraid will contribute to a disorganized battle where everybody is dying, respawning, running to the front, dying, respawning... ad eternum and without a clue about what is going on.
Yup it sure is just like DAOC was, so please don't bother playing.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I think, thats why moust mmorpgs fail atm, and WoW starting to losse its population( little by little), becouse non of then offers good pvp. i as looking forward to WAR, but not, when i see its Wow bg, with no death penalty.... i think i will pass... No point in tactics,You get gang banged, and respawn somewhere, to get gang banged again!( or you do gang banging to opposite side) People just like headless chickens drop in to battle ( hey, if i die, worse that going to happen: 14 secs of respawn time)
I think if there would be death penalty, people would think more, and find ways and tactics how to kill someone, and stay alive, PVP now - Try to do moust damage and die with no penalty( repaet again) (mages in wow bgs with arcane explosion) PVP should be - Survive by trying to kill someone, So that each kill you did would mean something to you, and your oppenent, not just list in moust kills.(if you die, be punished, so next time you would think before jumping into fight)
The problem with heavier death penalty is that it not only alienates casual players, it actually reduces the number of real PVP fans willing to risk death. Intead ofmaking the game more fun, it limits the number of fights drastically. I the penalty is one pice of your gear, everyone will fight naked or use crap gear and never bring out the good stuff. Look at Eve where the loss of a great ship is so devestating to a player he stops using it and only fights when the odds are stacked in his favour.
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult ) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all
You just prefer FPS style of combat, where you can throw yourself in the fray again and again with no consequences. I prefer to have to weigh the consequences of the fight, and yes, avoid the battle if the odds don't at least give a 50/50 shot at winning. Its more like real life IMO, where commanders can't heedlessly throw their troops into battle.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think, thats why moust mmorpgs fail atm, and WoW starting to losse its population( little by little), becouse non of then offers good pvp. i as looking forward to WAR, but not, when i see its Wow bg, with no death penalty.... i think i will pass... No point in tactics,You get gang banged, and respawn somewhere, to get gang banged again!( or you do gang banging to opposite side) People just like headless chickens drop in to battle ( hey, if i die, worse that going to happen: 14 secs of respawn time)
I think if there would be death penalty, people would think more, and find ways and tactics how to kill someone, and stay alive, PVP now - Try to do moust damage and die with no penalty( repaet again) (mages in wow bgs with arcane explosion) PVP should be - Survive by trying to kill someone, So that each kill you did would mean something to you, and your oppenent, not just list in moust kills.(if you die, be punished, so next time you would think before jumping into fight)
The problem with heavier death penalty is that it not only alienates casual players, it actually reduces the number of real PVP fans willing to risk death. Intead ofmaking the game more fun, it limits the number of fights drastically. I the penalty is one pice of your gear, everyone will fight naked or use crap gear and never bring out the good stuff. Look at Eve where the loss of a great ship is so devestating to a player he stops using it and only fights when the odds are stacked in his favour.
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult ) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all
You just prefer FPS style of combat, where you can throw yourself in the fray again and again with no consequences. I prefer to have to weigh the consequences of the fight, and yes, avoid the battle if the odds don't at least give a 50/50 shot at winning. Its more like real life IMO, where commanders can't heedlessly throw their troops into battle.
Two different styles of PVP is all.
Please don't tell me what I prefer. I know what I like.
I believe penalising players with a heavy death penalty will not add to the game, it just causes frustration. Do you really want Mythic to add looting of player corpses (or some other equally bad mechanic) knowing that it might have taken that dead player a year or longer to get his gear from sacking a capital city and killing the king? Get real, know one would risk the loss of such gear so your penalty become pointless.
I agree that this is beating a dead horse. I just wanted to express my support for Kyleran's idea that pvp should have consequences. ;P Some people just have WAY too much attachment to their stuff. It's like a bunch of little Gollums running around concerned about their preeeeeecious. Obviously, there should be some sort of insurance system for those overly concerned about their stuff. And those willing to take the risk should have the opportunity to get more valuable stuff.
My "other job" blocked all outside access so I have been pretty much out of viceo gaming and news for the last month, but i am back now and ready to cover mmo's like I was born to do!
So far from what I have played at conventions, I feel that the game dosent have a wow feel to it because of the engine. You have too much strategy that goes into the normal fight to make it anywhere close to wow. Its very complicated when you put the two combat systems together... let me show you
Warrior in wow pretty much uses ONE attack. Mortal strike/ Blood thirst you have the option to use heroic strike but its not very widely used. in theory you could run around and use nothing but 1 attack button and be a very effective fighter.
In war we will take black ock. Every time you block pary or evade you have seperate counter attacks you can make that start combo chains to other debuff attacks. Every offensive attack you make chains to another line of combos that create other debuffs on your enemy. so you can swing your clevar and get 2 good hits, then use your build up points to either backhand slap someone with your shield to slow their attacks or kick them in the groin to stun them.... from using the back hand you can then knock down your opponent or you can do a strong attack for lots of damage and start over... but if you knock them down you have the option of stomping on them with your boots for a major debuff and damage or driving your sword home for a finishing blow. (which at one point I thought was an elbow drop but I dunno what happened to it) but you can see the style of the black ork and how many choices you have to make during the fight. thats just offensive.... the defensive and protection choices you have to make are also just as vast because this is a defensive fighter. you CAN NOT run around and spam one button and be effective. I tried it just so I could come back here and say it.
I need to start trying to make preperations to cover the ny comicon this year, I will have tons more info when I go in april, but for now its just reading and reporting what I find out to you guys.
Comments
Yep pretty much what he said. You will not do well at WAR dont even waste your time. Wait for wotlk trust me on this one WoW players are not cut out for a pvp game.
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
I kinda have to agree from information i've taken in i agree with what you say.But where you say "set your base up there" i thought that all the cities were static and not dynamic or player made. The cities are just....there... so once you know a scenerio its going to be the same over and over and over again - arent keeps in warhammer just building already there too one location all the time, whether fortified or not, and restrictions in place.?
Ever tought of putting it in warhammer context maybe? This ain't AoC nomad/barbarian fest where you setup your backwater citie elsewhere when the previous one is destroyed. Thank god. The warhammer races have lost very important cities , then taken em back. Sometimes not. It's the license whole philosophy , endless war . Order races have been under attack for centuries. Getting sacked , burned and killed. They eventually retake their cities ,then reconstruct. I don't see anything wrong with that. Only someone always seeing glasses half-empty , like Pheace , would.
It's also a game. As no player would like to see years , decades or centuries go by inbetween taking and retaking. ( Like in the warhammer world lore). They just made the processus playable.
For anyone who just dumb down this game to the point of calling it a "big WOW BG" .Can you please just stay there and play the new expansion/grindfest of WOW?. It would save a lot of headaches in both camps. Using broad similarities is what people that have no arguments would do.
It's pvp , has pve quest component and its campaigns reset ... so it's like a BG . Right? Wow , you're a real genius.
But with AoC its all player made therefore I think it will have more meaning. You hold your city/keep for as long as you can, its not detirmined by a timer, it detirmined by strength and tactics. In warhammer there wil ultimately be a timer on everything, whatever the outcome the whole thing magically resets. You can't craft building, you probably will be able to craft siege weapons (from feedback). Everything else though is static, the buildings are in the same place each time, the lay of the land the same each time.
I think its going to be different from Daoc in a few ways.
It sounds more like an Alliance Battle in Guild Wars, but on a larger map, with quests in there and some control points on the map and a timer. ther difference being just a few cities/maps.
People will play this game and not give a shit about the lore you know, they will just see two sides, simple as that. People will also make WoW comparisons for years to come thats something your going to have to get used to whether you like it or not.
look im still going to play war, its just you seem to have been brainwashed into making out the game is something its not. its not complicated it doesnt need to be dumbed down.
Meaning doesn't come from how the building is put in place or if the location move. How rebuilding in a slightly different location after being defeated not a "Reset Timer"? . Players will care because they will lose time and resources from the destroyed city . Nothing to do with having more meaning.
Players will care in WAR because of faction/race pride ( much more powerful than a guild one imo) . Losing a capital city have detrimental effects on your whole race. Victory gives you loot , buffs , unlocking of dungeons/misc stuffs . i can only imagine the feeling , finally winning a capital after 2-3 months of fighting to get there.You don't just do the whole faction war content in a week , then reset and repeat. Did you even read about this game?
Winning in AoC give Blood money to buy pvp gear, amazing BG/Arena concept. Great sinkhole of time and money to keep people playing I guess. Always losing and rebuilding will keep players busy grinding for mats and money. If it's too easy and cheap to reconstruct , losing it have no meaning.
I don't see any similarities between that and guild wars alliance battle at all. Even the scenario instance i've played at gamesday had bigger scope than any fight i've had in GW. Nothing to do with being brainswashed. I just know what I am talking about , unlike you it seems.
Anyways , hopefully you'll drift to AoC. Since you seem to think that WAR is a very simple game with no substance.
http://revolutionwar.guildlaunch.com/
For your information I started playing EQ in it's first year, until PoP. Yes I have played WOW too, but you know, so many people have, it's good to know how WAR is different from it, because a lot of gamers want something different, me included.
Death penalty is not something that everyone thinks makes PvP meaningful.PvP is meaningful if
it impacts the reason you play
It leads to realm success or failure
It opens up new possibilities in gameplay
It leads to bigger battles that yield rewards in terms of land (cities) and gear (not important to me)
It allows you to level up without "questing"
It is tied into the lore and quests
Death penalty is only one factor
NDA is still ruling, we are still restricted on the amount of information available/shareable. On the other hand, the game is still being shaped. It might be a bit too early to drawn fast conclusions.
There is one major difference when talking about RvR (not just PvP) in WAR. The game is the RVR, its not an add on, a minor side issue. RVR is the game. RVR is far bigger than PVP. Its a Realm against another, not just a duel between 2 persons.
People criticize about the lacking in death penalty. That is not the way the game is supposed to be played. Penalty is not on the player, its on the REALM. Losing the fight means little to any single player personally, but the realm may be suffering. In the old DAoC days, if you lose in the frontiers you lose relics, you lose combat effectiveness as a realm and you lose access to good dungeons like DF.
If you only focus on yourself in the game, and measures everything by how much you can loot after killing a single enemy, or the death penalty suffered by yourself (or how far you can grief one single enemy) or how well you can win a duel ..., if all you care for is yourself, maybe you would not enjoy the game as much as it was supposed to be. WAR is a realm game, feel the realm to feel the game.
Ever tought of putting it in warhammer context maybe? This ain't AoC nomad/barbarian fest where you setup your backwater citie elsewhere when the previous one is destroyed.
Ow I'm just another AoC Fanboy then? I think I saw one video of that game with the horse once. I don't follow AoC, I was going off random thoughts.
My points stand about what I thought would make this game a better thing and nothing you said beyond that point makes any difference to that.
Death penalty in WAR (as far as I understand it) is your death = points for your enemy.
Giving points to the enemy by dying is a BAD THING. You really don't want t do it, so fight hard not to die please all you destruction players
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Don't forget there are six capital cities (3 dest, 3 Order) and each will be a different nut to crack. If each one takes a month (or two??) to take, that's a year of gameplay right there and that is only each one falling once.
I really don't know how it will go. Its possible that Dest players will have a hardon for sacking the dorf's capital and so they continualy attack Dwarfs zones ignoring all the other Order cities forever just out of spite. It is possible, but I doubt it will happen. It' s more likely to be a mixture, and because of this each will be different enough to feel fresh. Each will have different terrain, meaning the need for different tactics etc.
I know where the OP is coming from. He is worried that WAR will be Alterac Valley on steroids (before the changes made that BG into a race to kill NPCs) and that an open world RVR fight will be like a never ending AV without the instance. I have some sympathy with this, but feel the nature of a constantly moving front line, and therefore changing terrain and objectives will ensure it will not be AV in drag.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
That's exactly it lol
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Really is no comparison. Some of the scenarios used to achieve the city siege stage might be like that, but everything you do pve/rvr wise helps the effort. I mean in WOW if there was something similar i could have handled some of the grinding if it actually meant something for my faction in the end but since WOW doesn t have anything remotely close the comparison ends there. The war effirt in WAR is all around you. I can t find the podcast or maybe im too lazy but they said EVERYTHING you do helps the war effort to get to the city siege stage. To me thats just great. You ll get some old DAOC eel leading up to it with keeps and siege in the open world which is awesome to me they added that. As stated though it won t be as easy as winning a few matches or capturing a few keeps, alot goes into getting to that stage. Also when or if your faction does win the city siege stage alot of raid type things open up. One i remember hearing was you can for example fight the cities blacksmith for some nice weapons and gear. I m sure differnt enemy city merchants will be available to fight for items etc. Maybe the head chef of the city drops great food who knows
but i know the blacksmith one has been quoted somewhere 
Anyways it s not AV on crack as you can see and i know i f missed a ton i m sure, which means more fun for all of us 
Enjoy!!
I think, thats why moust mmorpgs fail atm, and WoW starting to losse its population( little by little), becouse non of then offers good pvp. i as looking forward to WAR, but not, when i see its Wow bg, with no death penalty.... i think i will pass...
No point in tactics,You get gang banged, and respawn somewhere, to get gang banged again!( or you do gang banging to opposite side) People just like headless chickens drop in to battle ( hey, if i die, worse that going to happen: 14 secs of respawn time)
I think if there would be death penalty, people would think more, and find ways and tactics how to kill someone, and stay alive,
PVP now - Try to do moust damage and die with no penalty( repaet again) (mages in wow bgs with arcane explosion)
PVP should be - Survive by trying to kill someone, So that each kill you did would mean something to you, and your oppenent, not just list in moust kills.(if you die, be punished, so next time you would think before jumping into fight)
In answer to the OP and the original title question....
no
To those who have only WoW'ed there used to be a day when a 5 man team could do this cause the healer in the group knew to res the corpse next to him and everyone cross healed. Ahhh the good old day's
I Long for those day's to return Concequence in pvp FTW!!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
This is a good system, I imagine, but you see all of it it's just two things, quests and battles.About quests maybe it will be interesting, maybe having a Commander organizing how the quests are done and by who and all that.
But the battles, and maybe the quests will also be really battles to win an objective if the parts can interact, are what the system is made of.
So if battles are an Alterac Valley thing, the whole system is meaningless, it doesn't matter the complexity of the system behind that, because the basic element, what you really spend your time on, is boring.
That's exactly it lol
Yes but as stated unlike AV, you can't really just zergrush to the end and insta-win, as just pointed out it'll take possibily two months to 'unlock' the city sige part of the game for that zone.
1) You've got to first 'unlock' the second part of the 4th teir of RVR via the first part of T4 (supported by efforts in T1, 2 and 3 'winning')
2) THEN hope to heck the other facton doesn't win back the other teirs thus locking the second part
3) IF you manage to hald faction control of that zone long enough AND have the second stage of T4 unlocked THEN city seiging happens, but then thats got it's own set of rules for combat.
City seiging
Based on a few interviews and reports this is possibly how this works
1) You've got to first get into the inner city via Public Quests and PVP bare in mind the other facion is there doing the same thing to hold it, plus theres a time limit on the whole section of this teir, so if you don't reach the inner city in time the whole thing locks down and you've got to go trough the whole thing above again.
2) If you mange to break into the inner city, congrats, you've HALF won, now you've got to clan up inside and hope that the other faction doesn't clean you out first.
3) Once and if you mange to mop up everyone then you have to deal with the PQs inside which you have to win to actally reap the rewards (I think these will be VERY hard), by completing these then you have 'won' with that city but once again theres a time limit to this...
4) Once the time limit clicks over the inner city opens up again allowing the other faction to try and take back the city, if they take it back then it's back to the first part of Teir 4 again, if not then your facton is still free to pillage, however the fight for control still continues and in the end the city will return to normal.
Also note with there being 6 citys open to capture, each city on your side captured will hurt the whole faction in some way so it's in your best interest to keep all your cities safe..So 'winning' in WAR is MUCH harder then 'winning AV'
This is a good system, I imagine, but you see all of it it's just two things, quests and battles.About quests maybe it will be interesting, maybe having a Commander organizing how the quests are done and by who and all that.
But the battles, and maybe the quests will also be really battles to win an objective if the parts can interact, are what the system is made of.
So if battles are an Alterac Valley thing, the whole system is meaningless, it doesn't matter the complexity of the system behind that, because the basic element, what you really spend your time on, is boring.
With the Public Quest system as it is I'd go out on a limb and say that system will possibly sway the outcome more then just mindless killing, of course 'the killing' counts for somthing but I'd be saying something lke the Public Quests will be like stage one of the attackers quest may be taking down the defences, whereas the counter-PQ would be somthing like getting ammo for the seige weapons, both will add aid to either side.
Funny thing really as we keep commenting on the AV model yet before it became a zergrush and the NPCs taken out, in the earier days I'd say it was very much the same were doing a handin quest spawned guards and the big elite monsters, it wouldn't shock me if the PQs ended up spawning dragons and trolls when it came to the city seiging.
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
The problem with heavier death penalty is that it not only alienates casual players, it actually reduces the number of real PVP fans willing to risk death. Intead ofmaking the game more fun, it limits the number of fights drastically. If the penalty is one peice of your gear, everyone will fight naked or use crap gear and never bring out the good stuff. Look at Eve where the loss of a great ship is so devestating to a player he stops using it and only fights when the odds are stacked in his favour.
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult
) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all 
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Yup it sure is just like DAOC was, so please don't bother playing.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult
) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all 
You just prefer FPS style of combat, where you can throw yourself in the fray again and again with no consequences. I prefer to have to weigh the consequences of the fight, and yes, avoid the battle if the odds don't at least give a 50/50 shot at winning. Its more like real life IMO, where commanders can't heedlessly throw their troops into battle.
Two different styles of PVP is all.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would much prefer lots of fighting and minimal death penalty, than the reverse. Besides, I think the enemy gaining points from my death is penalty (and insult
) enough. To me, it is a death penalty to be reckoned with, because I am not the only one "hurt" by my death. My realm suffers because of me, te exact reverse of wht I want to happen. I am meant to be the hero of the realm after all 
You just prefer FPS style of combat, where you can throw yourself in the fray again and again with no consequences. I prefer to have to weigh the consequences of the fight, and yes, avoid the battle if the odds don't at least give a 50/50 shot at winning. Its more like real life IMO, where commanders can't heedlessly throw their troops into battle.
Two different styles of PVP is all.
Please don't tell me what I prefer. I know what I like.
I believe penalising players with a heavy death penalty will not add to the game, it just causes frustration. Do you really want Mythic to add looting of player corpses (or some other equally bad mechanic) knowing that it might have taken that dead player a year or longer to get his gear from sacking a capital city and killing the king? Get real, know one would risk the loss of such gear so your penalty become pointless.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
*Makes another useless comment to up post count*
Where is that beating a dead horse pic when you need it?
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
Have a link handy of that gif
I agree that this is beating a dead horse. I just wanted to express my support for Kyleran's idea that pvp should have consequences. ;P Some people just have WAY too much attachment to their stuff. It's like a bunch of little Gollums running around concerned about their preeeeeecious. Obviously, there should be some sort of insurance system for those overly concerned about their stuff. And those willing to take the risk should have the opportunity to get more valuable stuff.
IM back! anyone missed me?
My "other job" blocked all outside access so I have been pretty much out of viceo gaming and news for the last month, but i am back now and ready to cover mmo's like I was born to do!
So far from what I have played at conventions, I feel that the game dosent have a wow feel to it because of the engine. You have too much strategy that goes into the normal fight to make it anywhere close to wow. Its very complicated when you put the two combat systems together... let me show you
Warrior in wow pretty much uses ONE attack. Mortal strike/ Blood thirst you have the option to use heroic strike but its not very widely used. in theory you could run around and use nothing but 1 attack button and be a very effective fighter.
In war we will take black ock. Every time you block pary or evade you have seperate counter attacks you can make that start combo chains to other debuff attacks. Every offensive attack you make chains to another line of combos that create other debuffs on your enemy. so you can swing your clevar and get 2 good hits, then use your build up points to either backhand slap someone with your shield to slow their attacks or kick them in the groin to stun them.... from using the back hand you can then knock down your opponent or you can do a strong attack for lots of damage and start over... but if you knock them down you have the option of stomping on them with your boots for a major debuff and damage or driving your sword home for a finishing blow. (which at one point I thought was an elbow drop but I dunno what happened to it) but you can see the style of the black ork and how many choices you have to make during the fight. thats just offensive.... the defensive and protection choices you have to make are also just as vast because this is a defensive fighter. you CAN NOT run around and spam one button and be effective. I tried it just so I could come back here and say it.
I need to start trying to make preperations to cover the ny comicon this year, I will have tons more info when I go in april, but for now its just reading and reporting what I find out to you guys.
Hasani