This is what worries me. I have watchet podcasts about RvR, just as much as the average guy interested in this game without being a big fan. System looks complex, all those graphics with arrows, points won there and then having an impact here. OK. But, my concern is about the battle itself. I mean, you can have the best system, but if battles are meaningless due to a lack of death penalty, then all the system is meaningless.
For your information I started playing EQ in it's first year, until PoP. Yes I have played WOW too, but you know, so many people have, it's good to know how WAR is different from it, because a lot of gamers want something different, me included.
Its not about if YOU live or die but if you fail at protecting (capturing) enemy territory. So the consequence of death (not doign well) if that your side loses ground .. .. and eventually your enemies ransack your capitol. This is generaly more kind but still motivating system.
OK... I can be very enthusiastic about taking the enemy territory with my comrades. Then I got two options. Do I go slowly, hiding, securing ground? Or do I run for it help-me-god and attack the first enemy I find, if I make it without dying first? My decision will depend on how the system is designed.
If the first time we try to go slowly and the enemy just zerg us, and it works because, for instance: 1) they dont' get tired when running and 2) they are back in action in seconds after dying, the next time we will do the same, screw tactics. So it will be basically many YOUs living and dying over and over again.
The good thing about WAR is that there are many ways to help the REALM, and you can mix and match game style depending on your playstyle as well as prevailing mood. PVE helps the realm, PVP helps the realm. There are lots of ways to contribute.
On death penalty: It is not so easy to run back after dying. Taking DAoC as illustration. Your guild defend your keep, say. The keep is typically quite a bit away from the PVP zone entrance (exit from your safe realm territories). You are inside the keep defending, and you died, say. When you respawn you suffered minor CON penalty, so a minor reduction in total HP (cumulative per death, till you buy them back with $$, that is minor). BUT, you spawn at the PVP zone entrance. If you alone died, you have to make your way thru the PVP zone alone, and run thru the enemies laying siege to your keep to reenter the keep. Chances are you will be hunted on the way back. So the penalty of death in PVP is not immaterial. You do not just zoom back to action instantly. If the seige is well organised, they will stop you from returning to the keep. Game over.
I kinda prefer this form of penalty to the greedy driven loot the body penalty. Why do I want to upset people by stealing their items. I do not need to steal from the opponent to make myself happy. I feel happy just playing the game without the need to hurt others to sustain the fun factor.
You keep talking about DAOC, and it looks very good. But there are two things that bugger me:
1) DAOC was designed when player's community was much more engaged in the game and was eager to learn and suffer and do epic battles. Nowadays, players just want "fun", which means zero tolerance to grinding or suffering in any form. Leading to boringness in a matter of few months.
2) Developers have stated that there won't be much need for pure healers because the health recovery will be very fast. That could mean nothing, or could mean that the game is leaning towards a low punishment combat, which makes sense taking into account point 1).
You keep talking about DAOC, and it looks very good. But there are two things that bugger me: 1) DAOC was designed when player's community was much more engaged in the game and was eager to learn and suffer and do epic battles. Nowadays, players just want "fun", which means zero tolerance to grinding or suffering in any form. Leading to boringness in a matter of few months. 2) Developers have stated that there won't be much need for pure healers because the health recovery will be very fast. That could mean nothing, or could mean that the game is leaning towards a low punishment combat, which makes sense taking into account point 1).
Since when are epic battles not 'fun?' How can you speak for the entire gaming community if you don't actually know what everyone wants?
Grinding is something that players decide upon. If you dont want to grind, then dont. Who said you needed to? Sure you may not be as strong and powerful as the guy with the big uber sword, but that's no reason to not be competitive. Especially since in WAR, most of the time you will find yourself fighting with groups of people, rather then alone.
And im not sure what you speak of when you say no suffering in any form. It's not like there's gonna be super duper CC's where your character is completely lost for a whole 20 seconds. Even the death penalty is alot less severe then most other games. From what we've seen you spawn and the safe point. So no corpse running or xp loss or anything of that nature. So what is this suffering exactly?
Didn't understand your second point clearly enough, so i'll leave it to someone else.
I have played WoW never played DAOC...Im what you call a harcore wow gammer.... 5-6 70s......And I have quit about 2 months ago...Why? Beacuse the game is not very good anymore the XPac ruined it. As did their patches...With all them tring to balance classes its not working to well......I am very excited for WAR to come out. PvP=lvling who doesnt love that...ANd its not JUST RvR they said there will be just as much incances or bosses or HIGH lvl PQ's to do....(Public Quests). And for your first point I am very glad there will be no such things as JUST healers liek in wow if your a healing class like...Shaman and pally or even priest you cant do anything other than heal.....Thats what people expect out of you..Heals I do not like that a group/guild wont take me because im not a healer its just ridiculus WAR how ever will fix that as the healing classes can dish out some nice DPS.... Hope that helped your point 2
You keep talking about DAOC, and it looks very good. But there are two things that bugger me: 1) DAOC was designed when player's community was much more engaged in the game and was eager to learn and suffer and do epic battles. Nowadays, players just want "fun", which means zero tolerance to grinding or suffering in any form. Leading to boringness in a matter of few months. 2) Developers have stated that there won't be much need for pure healers because the health recovery will be very fast. That could mean nothing, or could mean that the game is leaning towards a low punishment combat, which makes sense taking into account point 1).
Since when are epic battles not 'fun?' How can you speak for the entire gaming community if you don't actually know what everyone wants?
Grinding is something that players decide upon. If you dont want to grind, then dont. Who said you needed to? Sure you may not be as strong and powerful as the guy with the big uber sword, but that's no reason to not be competitive. Especially since in WAR, most of the time you will find yourself fighting with groups of people, rather then alone.
And im not sure what you speak of when you say no suffering in any form. It's not like there's gonna be super duper CC's where your character is completely lost for a whole 20 seconds. Even the death penalty is alot less severe then most other games. From what we've seen you spawn and the safe point. So no corpse running or xp loss or anything of that nature. So what is this suffering exactly?
Didn't understand your second point clearly enough, so i'll leave it to someone else.
The biggest problem with the design I have right now is that in the end, apart from capturing a King or something you do it all for nothing. Nothing is permanent in capturing your enemies city, it all gets undone afterwards.
That's the biggest point where it resembles a BG imo. It may take long to do but in the end it's a neverending selfrepeating tredmill towards the main city over and over again.
That + the scenario play I've seen so far has near instant respawn + a 1min walk to the action or near that. Could've done without scenario's imo.
Edit: and don't start arguing it's no different in other games. I was hoping for something better here.
They have to reset the main city at some point. How would you like it if becuase of a population imbalance that your city was always in control of the enemy. it couldn't be fun, plus it doesn't reset immediately. The game only forces the reset aftera period of times which is not hours, but days, and i believe it is done thru a mass swarm of NPC gaurds that force fully take it back(think keeps on the Gahris server of DAoC) ,so you still have fun fighting off a large army.
Which just illustrates the flaw of the design. Where is the fluency, City gets sacked, move to another spot, set up your base there, have the options to build up certain cities/bases in favor of others due to player activity. Things like that.
There isn't. It's all set, nothing's going to change if people walk into your city, you wait a while or kick them out yourselves and everything is back as it was. Not falling back to another position on the map and making your stand there or anything.
Yes, population balance is a problem I know, that's why a 2faction system doesn't really work well in my opinion.
Can you imagine how much War and Chaos it would have been if all the WAR races would actually have had their own side? Now that's war! and population imbalance would have seemed a much less problem.
I'm sure they are doing the best they can but in my belief, the design is very rigid and static and much like a BG in that regard.
Rofl really , move to another area? How do you do that if your out numbered? How do you do that if they do not aggressing you? ... You don't.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
No, no you're right man. Mythic is COPYING WOW with no new features or anything and it still sticks to the same old leveling treadmill and everything. You are completely and utterly right - this is totally detestable and someone should put a stop to this!
So one guy invents a radio and another guy takes it and puts a clock in it and you think it is no longer a radio? Taking and existing game and adding extra bits to it is fine in my opinion but let's give credit where it is due and let's not delude ourselves into thinking this game does not copy WoW (and according to the guy above AC2) gameplay.
It is obvious to anyone who can read that Warhammer online is a WoW radio with a clock in it. Hell, even the developers of Warhammer suggested it when they made The Beatles/Led Zepplin comparison so even they are conscious of that fact that their game is similar and not in respect that they are both MMORPGs but with regards to something more.
I don't understand why some of you take this so personally and are so damn blind to it after all it's just a game unless you have shares in Mythic.
That's my fabulous personality talking... when I hear something that I don't agree with I jump. Doesn't make me very popular at family dinners or business parties but hey, I'm having fun.
As to WAR vs WoW. I'm not saying that the two don't share features.... If you look it up you'll find that this is exactly what a definition of a"genre".
The question is what features are being shared and to what degree. And last, but not the least, what features do you, as a player, find more important than other.
For example, some people are dissatisfied with WoW-style combat mechanics (note I'm saying "WoW-style" since WoW didn't invent it) so they see AoC as being more revolutionary. I, on the other hand, couldn't care less about those since for me it is about the only thing working in WoW. I find some other things more important - like the reason to actually play the game, PvP leveling, massively dynamic world... So for me, personally it is AoC that is "WoW in a drag" and not WAR.
Now I would never say that AoC is a WoW clone because it is totally pointless. These games all belong to the same genre and it would be utterly ridiculous if they didn't share features. In some Western movies you've got ritual 1v1 gunfights which doesn't mean that they're all "copying" each other. These are tools of a genre - and if you're working within a genre you're perfectly entitled to use that genre's tools to create the best product you can.
/edit
as for Beatles/Led Zeppelin... well they're all using guitars! COPYCATS! The same thing! They're organized as bands... and they tour and have concerts!!! COPYCATS!
Now do you realize how ridiculous this is?
As for radio simile - so what? If someone invented radio then no one else should be allowed to improve on it? Make better models with digital dials or anything? And besides, WoW didn't invent MMORPGs. If you really want to call WAR a copy of something then I'm sure you'll be much better off by comparing it to DAoC.
Sharing a genre is too vague in this case. These 2 games are too similar to suggest that it is just a genre thing. A better comparison would be between the movie Seven Samurai and the movie The Magnificent Seven which was adapted from it. Oh sure, they are different, one is about Samurai and the other is about Cowboys but the backbone is pretty much the same - The Magnificent Seven copied Seven Samurai but The Magnificent Seven has Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen in it
I disagree on your point that these features are the "tools of the genre" since virtual worlds like UO, SWG, EvE, and even DAoC does not have half of them within their MMORPG. WoW popularized a specific type of MMORPG (themepark) and WAR is taking notes, you can't suggest they aren't - it is too obvious. Perhaps they are trying to branch the themepark with the virtual world but again in order to agree to that we would also need to agree that WAR has copied WoW and you are not willing to agree to that.
"as for Beatles/Led Zeppelin... well they're all using guitars! COPYCATS! The same thing! They're organized as bands... and they tour and have concerts!!! COPYCATS!" Nice generalizations here - it would be like meeting a pair of identical twins and suggesting they are alike because they are both human! Do you realize how ridiculous that would be?
DAoC is not a copy of WoW - the features are toodifferent. WAR is a copy of WoW and is also a copy of DAoC. Here is another simile since you like them so much:
"Warhammer online is like a car built on top of a World of Warcraft chassis with parts from the DAoC parts bin."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
With 40 PvE ranks and 80 RvR ranks and the fact that they stated that they weren't persuing "an endgame raid theme" I doubt you will see a rush to lvl. In fact they said the city dungeons would be 6 man group instances the only thing that may take more players are city seige objectives, such as the public quests to unlock the city leaders and the leaders themselves.
As for endgame raid.....I've never understood the point you raid and raid to get all of this great gear..........then sit around the major cities or hubs and do nothing until the next endgame patch or expansion comes out. Seems like a rush to nothing IMO.
I've mostly skimmed over most posts here, and besides the level grind similarity, what other commonalities put people off? Is is just the fantasy genre? Because that has been adapted millions of times throughout the decades of both table top and computer based RPGs.
Perhaps, one could compose a list so that we can deciminate further?
I think what makes people uneasy is the fact that most games in the fantasy genre are PvE games with the element of PvP added as an afterthought. The way you can tell would be to look at the structure, WoW for instance, 90% of the game is PvE content rush to lvl cap and raid. 5 to 6 months after release they institute the first PvP standards and then totally revamp them somewhere down the road, meaning the game is PvE and the PvP is an after thought to keep peoples attention until they can get another expansion out. WoW is not the only game to do this, and with this being the trend the customer base is programed into thinking this is the standard.
Now if people are going to play this game they'll have to get used to the fact that 90% of this game will be RvR instead of strict PvE (meaning even the PvE will be in some manner tied to RvR) the point will be to further the cause of your chosen realm.......not rush to lvl cap and fight high lvl raid mobs.
"Warhammer online is like a car built on top of a World of Warcraft chassis with parts from the DAoC parts bin."
This makes it sound like WAR incorporates all that is WOW and builds upon it which I highly doubt it does, so no that one doesn't work imo unless you assume the chassis is a stripped version of WoW and even then I don'tthink they're similar enough in that sense since the basics like combat are clearly based more on Daoc than WoW.
Looks more like a Daoc Chassis built within a multi AV casing with some WoW additions.
So, if WAR is this 'frankenstein' of WoW and DAoC...
And I'm currently 'bored' (for lack of better term) with WoW...
And I did not like DAoC...
Should I assume that I will not like WAR?
...
I'll play the game and judge for myself, of course. But some of the debates about the game seem to be very logical and well stated. While I haven't exactly seen much fact strung along with these posts, they do make some great points and bring some 'unknowns' to the surface that I hadn't previously considered.
So, if WAR is this 'frankenstein' of WoW and DAoC... And I'm currently 'bored' (for lack of better term) with WoW... And I did not like DAoC... Should I assume that I will not like WAR? ... I'll play the game and judge for myself, of course. But some of the debates about the game seem to be very logical and well stated. While I haven't exactly seen much fact strung along with these posts, they do make some great points and bring some 'unknowns' to the surface that I hadn't previously considered.
Not to worry. WAR is more than the sum of its parts.
M. Jacobs isn't close to even understanding how ro make WAR successful . He didn't even discover until last December that WAR should have seige warfare(they had to stop the beta to fix this and other issues).He had planned on not having it in.Talk about wandering in the wilderness.
M. Jacobs isn't close to even understanding how ro make WAR successful . He didn't even discover until last December that WAR should have seige warfare(they had to stop the beta to fix this and other issues).He had planned on not having it in.Talk about wandering in the wilderness.
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
M. Jacobs isn't close to even understanding how ro make WAR successful . He didn't even discover until last December that WAR should have seige warfare(they had to stop the beta to fix this and other issues).He had planned on not having it in.Talk about wandering in the wilderness.
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
So basically you're saying that they have no idea how to innovate. I guess it's lucky that their users are smarter than they are.
What surprises me is how many companies think that copying a video game is a succesfull strategy. People have already played enough WoW/EQ and if innovations to the genre don't come fast enough than people will get bored of each new WoW clone pretty quickly.
So they're implementing sieges in WAR...will the game be territory based or capture the flag based?
Sieges will be territory based. If your going to call a game a WoW clone at least do some research on it. The sieges have been covered in more than one podcast and anyone with half a brain can figure out how it will be run. The tomb of knowledge will be innovation if it delivers what they say. Granted thats not specifically PvP (though I'm willing to bet the tomb will fit into RvR).
Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
So basically you're saying that they have no idea how to innovate. I guess it's lucky that their users are smarter than they are.
What surprises me is how many companies think that copying a video game is a succesfull strategy. People have already played enough WoW/EQ and if innovations to the genre don't come fast enough than people will get bored of each new WoW clone pretty quickly. So they're implementing sieges in WAR...will the game be territory based or capture the flag based?
Sieges will be territory based. If your going to call a game a WoW clone at least do some research on it. The sieges have been covered in more than one podcast and anyone with half a brain can figure out how it will be run. The tomb of knowledge will be innovation if it delivers what they say. Granted thats not specifically PvP (though I'm willing to bet the tomb will fit into RvR).
Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
I think maybe you should read the post you are responding to.. before you tell someone to do "research".
They didn't say WAR will be a wow clone.. They are talking in the general sense of the cloning of two different games.. which is very evident in WAR and most any other upcoming MMO.
There are reasons for this.. its called risk versus investment from the company perspective. This poster was just saying at some point the rehash is going to be a bigger risk than trying something different.
Which I happen to agree with.
Here is a perspective..
The company with what is considered to be one of the best pvp games out (dark age of camelot). Had to wait for user feedback to find out they needed to include pvp related mechanics and not just copy some other games instanced battle grounds... somehow that doesn't make much sense.
The podcast are very interesting to watch. Sometimes marketing doesn't quite form a cohesive bond with actual product tho... but hopefully this isn't the case. It seems to be another thing MMO's tend to clone..
Comments
Graphics look like WOW. What a clone . As for gamplay i do not know.
Its not about if YOU live or die but if you fail at protecting (capturing) enemy territory. So the consequence of death (not doign well) if that your side loses ground .. .. and eventually your enemies ransack your capitol. This is generaly more kind but still motivating system.
OK... I can be very enthusiastic about taking the enemy territory with my comrades. Then I got two options. Do I go slowly, hiding, securing ground? Or do I run for it help-me-god and attack the first enemy I find, if I make it without dying first? My decision will depend on how the system is designed.If the first time we try to go slowly and the enemy just zerg us, and it works because, for instance: 1) they dont' get tired when running and 2) they are back in action in seconds after dying, the next time we will do the same, screw tactics. So it will be basically many YOUs living and dying over and over again.
The good thing about WAR is that there are many ways to help the REALM, and you can mix and match game style depending on your playstyle as well as prevailing mood. PVE helps the realm, PVP helps the realm. There are lots of ways to contribute.On death penalty: It is not so easy to run back after dying. Taking DAoC as illustration. Your guild defend your keep, say. The keep is typically quite a bit away from the PVP zone entrance (exit from your safe realm territories). You are inside the keep defending, and you died, say. When you respawn you suffered minor CON penalty, so a minor reduction in total HP (cumulative per death, till you buy them back with $$, that is minor). BUT, you spawn at the PVP zone entrance. If you alone died, you have to make your way thru the PVP zone alone, and run thru the enemies laying siege to your keep to reenter the keep. Chances are you will be hunted on the way back. So the penalty of death in PVP is not immaterial. You do not just zoom back to action instantly. If the seige is well organised, they will stop you from returning to the keep. Game over.
I kinda prefer this form of penalty to the greedy driven loot the body penalty. Why do I want to upset people by stealing their items. I do not need to steal from the opponent to make myself happy. I feel happy just playing the game without the need to hurt others to sustain the fun factor.
You keep talking about DAOC, and it looks very good. But there are two things that bugger me:
1) DAOC was designed when player's community was much more engaged in the game and was eager to learn and suffer and do epic battles. Nowadays, players just want "fun", which means zero tolerance to grinding or suffering in any form. Leading to boringness in a matter of few months.
2) Developers have stated that there won't be much need for pure healers because the health recovery will be very fast. That could mean nothing, or could mean that the game is leaning towards a low punishment combat, which makes sense taking into account point 1).
Grinding is something that players decide upon. If you dont want to grind, then dont. Who said you needed to? Sure you may not be as strong and powerful as the guy with the big uber sword, but that's no reason to not be competitive. Especially since in WAR, most of the time you will find yourself fighting with groups of people, rather then alone.
And im not sure what you speak of when you say no suffering in any form. It's not like there's gonna be super duper CC's where your character is completely lost for a whole 20 seconds. Even the death penalty is alot less severe then most other games. From what we've seen you spawn and the safe point. So no corpse running or xp loss or anything of that nature. So what is this suffering exactly?
Didn't understand your second point clearly enough, so i'll leave it to someone else.
I have played WoW never played DAOC...Im what you call a harcore wow gammer.... 5-6 70s......And I have quit about 2 months ago...Why? Beacuse the game is not very good anymore the XPac ruined it. As did their patches...With all them tring to balance classes its not working to well......I am very excited for WAR to come out. PvP=lvling who doesnt love that...ANd its not JUST RvR they said there will be just as much incances or bosses or HIGH lvl PQ's to do....(Public Quests). And for your first point I am very glad there will be no such things as JUST healers liek in wow if your a healing class like...Shaman and pally or even priest you cant do anything other than heal.....Thats what people expect out of you..Heals I do not like that a group/guild wont take me because im not a healer its just ridiculus WAR how ever will fix that as the healing classes can dish out some nice DPS.... Hope that helped your point 2
Grinding is something that players decide upon. If you dont want to grind, then dont. Who said you needed to? Sure you may not be as strong and powerful as the guy with the big uber sword, but that's no reason to not be competitive. Especially since in WAR, most of the time you will find yourself fighting with groups of people, rather then alone.
And im not sure what you speak of when you say no suffering in any form. It's not like there's gonna be super duper CC's where your character is completely lost for a whole 20 seconds. Even the death penalty is alot less severe then most other games. From what we've seen you spawn and the safe point. So no corpse running or xp loss or anything of that nature. So what is this suffering exactly?
Didn't understand your second point clearly enough, so i'll leave it to someone else.
Dude...
They have to reset the main city at some point. How would you like it if becuase of a population imbalance that your city was always in control of the enemy. it couldn't be fun, plus it doesn't reset immediately. The game only forces the reset aftera period of times which is not hours, but days, and i believe it is done thru a mass swarm of NPC gaurds that force fully take it back(think keeps on the Gahris server of DAoC) ,so you still have fun fighting off a large army.
Which just illustrates the flaw of the design. Where is the fluency, City gets sacked, move to another spot, set up your base there, have the options to build up certain cities/bases in favor of others due to player activity. Things like that.
There isn't. It's all set, nothing's going to change if people walk into your city, you wait a while or kick them out yourselves and everything is back as it was. Not falling back to another position on the map and making your stand there or anything.
Yes, population balance is a problem I know, that's why a 2faction system doesn't really work well in my opinion.
Can you imagine how much War and Chaos it would have been if all the WAR races would actually have had their own side? Now that's war! and population imbalance would have seemed a much less problem.
I'm sure they are doing the best they can but in my belief, the design is very rigid and static and much like a BG in that regard.
Rofl really , move to another area? How do you do that if your out numbered? How do you do that if they do not aggressing you? ... You don't.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
It is obvious to anyone who can read that Warhammer online is a WoW radio with a clock in it. Hell, even the developers of Warhammer suggested it when they made The Beatles/Led Zepplin comparison so even they are conscious of that fact that their game is similar and not in respect that they are both MMORPGs but with regards to something more.
I don't understand why some of you take this so personally and are so damn blind to it after all it's just a game unless you have shares in Mythic.
That's my fabulous personality talking... when I hear something that I don't agree with I jump. Doesn't make me very popular at family dinners or business parties but hey, I'm having fun.
As to WAR vs WoW. I'm not saying that the two don't share features.... If you look it up you'll find that this is exactly what a definition of a"genre".
The question is what features are being shared and to what degree. And last, but not the least, what features do you, as a player, find more important than other.
For example, some people are dissatisfied with WoW-style combat mechanics (note I'm saying "WoW-style" since WoW didn't invent it) so they see AoC as being more revolutionary. I, on the other hand, couldn't care less about those since for me it is about the only thing working in WoW. I find some other things more important - like the reason to actually play the game, PvP leveling, massively dynamic world... So for me, personally it is AoC that is "WoW in a drag" and not WAR.
Now I would never say that AoC is a WoW clone because it is totally pointless. These games all belong to the same genre and it would be utterly ridiculous if they didn't share features. In some Western movies you've got ritual 1v1 gunfights which doesn't mean that they're all "copying" each other. These are tools of a genre - and if you're working within a genre you're perfectly entitled to use that genre's tools to create the best product you can.
/edit
as for Beatles/Led Zeppelin... well they're all using guitars! COPYCATS! The same thing! They're organized as bands... and they tour and have concerts!!! COPYCATS!
Now do you realize how ridiculous this is?
As for radio simile - so what? If someone invented radio then no one else should be allowed to improve on it? Make better models with digital dials or anything? And besides, WoW didn't invent MMORPGs. If you really want to call WAR a copy of something then I'm sure you'll be much better off by comparing it to DAoC.
Sharing a genre is too vague in this case. These 2 games are too similar to suggest that it is just a genre thing. A better comparison would be between the movie Seven Samurai and the movie The Magnificent Seven which was adapted from it. Oh sure, they are different, one is about Samurai and the other is about Cowboys but the backbone is pretty much the same - The Magnificent Seven copied Seven Samurai but The Magnificent Seven has Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen in itI disagree on your point that these features are the "tools of the genre" since virtual worlds like UO, SWG, EvE, and even DAoC does not have half of them within their MMORPG. WoW popularized a specific type of MMORPG (themepark) and WAR is taking notes, you can't suggest they aren't - it is too obvious. Perhaps they are trying to branch the themepark with the virtual world but again in order to agree to that we would also need to agree that WAR has copied WoW and you are not willing to agree to that.
"as for Beatles/Led Zeppelin... well they're all using guitars! COPYCATS! The same thing! They're organized as bands... and they tour and have concerts!!! COPYCATS!" Nice generalizations here - it would be like meeting a pair of identical twins and suggesting they are alike because they are both human! Do you realize how ridiculous that would be?
DAoC is not a copy of WoW - the features are toodifferent. WAR is a copy of WoW and is also a copy of DAoC. Here is another simile since you like them so much:
"Warhammer online is like a car built on top of a World of Warcraft chassis with parts from the DAoC parts bin."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
With 40 PvE ranks and 80 RvR ranks and the fact that they stated that they weren't persuing "an endgame raid theme" I doubt you will see a rush to lvl. In fact they said the city dungeons would be 6 man group instances the only thing that may take more players are city seige objectives, such as the public quests to unlock the city leaders and the leaders themselves.
As for endgame raid.....I've never understood the point you raid and raid to get all of this great gear..........then sit around the major cities or hubs and do nothing until the next endgame patch or expansion comes out. Seems like a rush to nothing IMO.
I've mostly skimmed over most posts here, and besides the level grind similarity, what other commonalities put people off? Is is just the fantasy genre? Because that has been adapted millions of times throughout the decades of both table top and computer based RPGs.
Perhaps, one could compose a list so that we can deciminate further?
I think what makes people uneasy is the fact that most games in the fantasy genre are PvE games with the element of PvP added as an afterthought. The way you can tell would be to look at the structure, WoW for instance, 90% of the game is PvE content rush to lvl cap and raid. 5 to 6 months after release they institute the first PvP standards and then totally revamp them somewhere down the road, meaning the game is PvE and the PvP is an after thought to keep peoples attention until they can get another expansion out. WoW is not the only game to do this, and with this being the trend the customer base is programed into thinking this is the standard.
Now if people are going to play this game they'll have to get used to the fact that 90% of this game will be RvR instead of strict PvE (meaning even the PvE will be in some manner tied to RvR) the point will be to further the cause of your chosen realm.......not rush to lvl cap and fight high lvl raid mobs.
This makes it sound like WAR incorporates all that is WOW and builds upon it which I highly doubt it does, so no that one doesn't work imo unless you assume the chassis is a stripped version of WoW and even then I don'tthink they're similar enough in that sense since the basics like combat are clearly based more on Daoc than WoW.
Looks more like a Daoc Chassis built within a multi AV casing with some WoW additions.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Yeah what happened to the good old times when we were biting eachothers legs off
I know seriously...the winds of change...so hard to predict lol Well there's always tomorrow or another thread rofl!
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
So, if WAR is this 'frankenstein' of WoW and DAoC...
And I'm currently 'bored' (for lack of better term) with WoW...
And I did not like DAoC...
Should I assume that I will not like WAR?
...
I'll play the game and judge for myself, of course. But some of the debates about the game seem to be very logical and well stated. While I haven't exactly seen much fact strung along with these posts, they do make some great points and bring some 'unknowns' to the surface that I hadn't previously considered.
Not to worry. WAR is more than the sum of its parts.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
M. Jacobs isn't close to even understanding how ro make WAR successful . He didn't even discover until last December that WAR should have seige warfare(they had to stop the beta to fix this and other issues).He had planned on not having it in.Talk about wandering in the wilderness.
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
ROFLMAO @ all my attempts to get you WAR fanbois to face reality...i'm done...there's no point...
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Someone call 911 its a flame fest.
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
So basically you're saying that they have no idea how to innovate. I guess it's lucky that their users are smarter than they are.
What surprises me is how many companies think that copying a video game is a succesfull strategy. People have already played enough WoW/EQ and if innovations to the genre don't come fast enough than people will get bored of each new WoW clone pretty quickly.
So they're implementing sieges in WAR...will the game be territory based or capture the flag based?
Sieges will be territory based. If your going to call a game a WoW clone at least do some research on it. The sieges have been covered in more than one podcast and anyone with half a brain can figure out how it will be run. The tomb of knowledge will be innovation if it delivers what they say. Granted thats not specifically PvP (though I'm willing to bet the tomb will fit into RvR).Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
I think maybe you should read the post you are responding to.. before you tell someone to do "research".
They didn't say WAR will be a wow clone.. They are talking in the general sense of the cloning of two different games.. which is very evident in WAR and most any other upcoming MMO.
There are reasons for this.. its called risk versus investment from the company perspective. This poster was just saying at some point the rehash is going to be a bigger risk than trying something different.
Which I happen to agree with.
Here is a perspective..
The company with what is considered to be one of the best pvp games out (dark age of camelot). Had to wait for user feedback to find out they needed to include pvp related mechanics and not just copy some other games instanced battle grounds... somehow that doesn't make much sense.
The podcast are very interesting to watch. Sometimes marketing doesn't quite form a cohesive bond with actual product tho... but hopefully this isn't the case. It seems to be another thing MMO's tend to clone..