M. Jacobs isn't close to even understanding how ro make WAR successful . He didn't even discover until last December that WAR should have seige warfare(they had to stop the beta to fix this and other issues).He had planned on not having it in.Talk about wandering in the wilderness.
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
So basically you're saying that they have no idea how to innovate. I guess it's lucky that their users are smarter than they are.
What surprises me is how many companies think that copying a video game is a succesfull strategy. People have already played enough WoW/EQ and if innovations to the genre don't come fast enough than people will get bored of each new WoW clone pretty quickly.
So they're implementing sieges in WAR...will the game be territory based or capture the flag based?
Sieges will be territory based. If your going to call a game a WoW clone at least do some research on it. The sieges have been covered in more than one podcast and anyone with half a brain can figure out how it will be run. The tomb of knowledge will be innovation if it delivers what they say. Granted thats not specifically PvP (though I'm willing to bet the tomb will fit into RvR).
Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP.
But they aren't trying to copy WoW...
ROFLMAO @ all my attempts to get you WAR fanbois to face reality...i'm done...there's no point...
Do you know what a "genre" is?
I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous.
Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP.
But they aren't trying to copy WoW...
ROFLMAO @ all my attempts to get you WAR fanbois to face reality...i'm done...there's no point...
Do you know what a "genre" is?
I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous.
Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
You da man.
But, as someone said, looks like WOW's BG with steroids.
But, as someone said, looks like WOW's BG with steroids.
Thanks, but to me WAR looks just like DAoC on steroids.
Depends on what you're looking at imo.
Combat = Daoc , Keep system = Daoc, world structure = WoW BG (Multi AV)
Exactly.
Different people find different things important, so it's all in the eye of the beholder. For example I find AoC much more similar to WoW than WAR is - simply because the gfx and combat system are not that important to me. I'm much more intrigued by the whole living dynamic world thing they're doing in WAR.
However, you won't see me yelling "AoC is copying WoW" because the world's fixed, the endgame focuses on me-me-me gear grind, you've got PvE raids and you can't level through PvP. These are some of the possible features of games that we call MMORPGs and it's perfectly legitimate for developers to pick and choose whatever mechanic or feature they feel would make their game better. Some people are perfectly fine with those listed but don't like the gfx and combat system in WoW - to them AoC really looks revolutionary and I have no problem with that.
I can say "this feature is not doing it for me" or "I like games with this mechanic better" or even "i fear that this mechanic is going to go bad because it turned out this way in game x". What I cannot say with a straight face is "this game is copying that one" just because I don't happen to like some of the features they share and completely ignore all the differences between them.
I know posting this here is asking for flames, but I really intend to buy the game and I'm honestly worried about this, so I'd like to be proved wrong. BTW I asked the same question at the only-war general forum (with same nick, you can go and check) and in the end it wasn't clear that WAR ¬= Big WOW BG. Specially because of the non existant death penalty that I'm afraid will contribute to a disorganized battle where everybody is dying, respawning, running to the front, dying, respawning... ad eternum and without a clue about what is going on.
WH has a better grafic system then DOAC but they are manly the same, beside for the classes. But yea the grafic allso look kind of wows grafic, but arnt.
Though that the target system, and the conbo/ skill use seems like something from a assian game and from wow. The combat it self seems like DAOC, "stik, combat". But from what i have seen the skills now are on timers as in wow, and not as in DAOC.
About the class system, one can say the got it from WOW, but no. Its seem more or less like the RAbilitys from DAOC, and that the classes beside this allso has other ways to grow there chrs in, that allso are the same as in DAOC, and that come from rvr.
Beside that no WH is not a WOW bg, becuse WH is a rvr system and nothing like WOW, GW, or any other game. Its rvr in small aeras, and rvr in big areas.
Beta: GW, WOW, AOC, DAOC, DOD, L2, VG. Playd: GW necro msx, WOW never maxd, DAOC reaver-paladin-cabalist-vamp max, L2 never maxd, VG never maxd.
Do you know what a "genre" is? I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous. Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
Read this carefully and use all of your attention:
A script: A group of intelligence officers approach a special forces unit with a special mission: go up-river into the remote Vietnamese jungle to find Private James Francis Ryan and have him sent home immediately because three of his brothers have already died in the war. The movie is about the harrowing journey into the heart of darkness and a soldiers sharp sense of duty, honor, and brotherhood.
My arguement is that the writer of this script is copying Apocalypse Now and Saving Private Ryan just like Warhammer is with DAoC and WoW.
Your agruement is that they are both war movies and thats just the genre so they are not copying anything.
I'm sure this line of thinking helps you with whatever it is you do in the entertainment industry and with this line of thinking I am sure you are very successful. You'll make a great "new" TV show about a driver and a high tech talking car that travel across america solving crimes - it's nothing like Knight Rider because this time the driver is a sexy woman and the car is green and even if it is a copy so what it's just the "genre" right?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Do you know what a "genre" is? I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous. Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
Read this carefully and use all of your attention:
A script: A group of intelligence officers approach a special forces unit with a special mission: go up-river into the remote Vietnamese jungle to find Private James Francis Ryan and have him sent home immediately because three of his brothers have already died in the war. The movie is about the harrowing journey into the heart of darkness and a soldiers sharp sense of duty, honor, and brotherhood.
My arguement is that the writer of this script is copying Apocalypse Now and Saving Private Ryan just like Warhammer is with DAoC and WoW.
Your agruement is that they are both war movies and thats just the genre so they are not copying anything.
I'm sure this line of thinking helps you with whatever it is you do in the entertainment industry and with this line of thinking I am sure you are very successful. You'll make a great "new" TV show about a driver and a high tech talking car that travel across america solving crimes - it's nothing like Knight Rider because this time the driver is a sexy woman and the car is green and even if it is a copy so what it's just the "genre" right?
Look, this is pointless. I say this and you say that. We can go on like this forever. If you choose to see WAR as a WoW clone then it's your call.
I'm on the other hand hyped out about WAR precisely because I see it as quite different from WoW and in all the right places to boot. If you want a WoW hater, here I am. I've been gaming and rpgin right from almost the beginning of computer games and pnp rpgs and I see WoW as the greatest calamity that happened to MMORPG genre - a shocking devolution of online gaming.
However, it is my informed opinion that WAR is bringing quite a bit of new stuff to the table. And don't start yelling "sandboxyness" or "classless" because that's actually where MMORPGs started. I'm not saying that it won't return bigtime but for WAR in particular the iconic classes and faction based RvR is the only real way to go if you want to stay true to the IP.
Mythic devs decided to base WAR on tabletop battles and not the WHFRPG (which I played and GMd, thank you) where a somewhat less "iconic" approach and more sandboxy feel would be appropriate. However the structure of that hypothetic game would have to be quite similar to that in Tabula Rasa - a global fight against an AI adversary. IMO, Games Workshop people made the right choice when they ditched this (The first Warhammer Online) and gave the job to Mythic to do their iconic RvR game based on TT battles part of the IP.
As I said, I too am sick and tired of levels and classes and have been so even before the MMORPGs appeared. I'm still shocked that pen and paper D&D is still more complex in rules than all the computer RPGs so far... While we, in our days, considered D&D light, kiddy stuff and played GURPS which is immensely more complex and completely class-less and level-less. I hope to see something like this in a future MMORPG, but not in WAR. The setting and the tone of TT favor classes and levels and if I had to design it I'd put my personal preferences aside and go with classes , levels and (maybe) 2 factions. You may call it a WoW clone because of this and this is your right but imo you'll be missing a lot of really fantastic new and original stuff in order to prove some abstract point.
/let me just add...
...that when i heard WAR is going to be a class and level based game it didn't shock or disappoint me nearly as much as when I heard that Aoc is going that route... If ever there was a fantasy IP where class-less and level-less sandbox would work absolutely perfectly then this would be Conan's gritty Hyborea. What a waste...
Guys this is a pointless discussion as I said before it`s like "The chicken and the Egg" thing.There's only a single truth...You like it or you don`t like it.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
How can you say, WAR is a clone of WoW, when Blizzard has copied everything from Games Workshop.
Mechanics in WAR come from DAoC/EQ1/AC.
And considering that WoW is a new game compared to DAoC/EQ1/AC would that not make WoW a hybrid clone of those three games, based of the IP from Warhammer(gamesworkshop) ?
If the OP has any questions on how WAR will handle RvR, should he not then download the trial of DAoC to get an idea?
Just my 2cents.
"It''s like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG''s NGE
I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
"Some people play tennis, I erode the human soul." -Tycho
I take it that since your coming from EQ your into the whole raiding thing. Not really my cup of tea but eh whatever.
Ever play DAOC? Its pvp on a higher level. Its in many ways just like real War in terms of strategy.
Add better graphics, next gen tech and collision detection into that mix and the pvp is much more enjoyable, much more strategic and much more rewarding than WoWs could be.
If your worried about the pve aspect of WAR, well lets just say that I have no respect for pve raiding and those who do it to feel leet about beating a programmed encounter.
Yes, It's exactly like wow, In fact! Every game ever made in the history of mankind is a copy of wow. I've discovered this through my extensive search of these forums. AoC, War, VG, hell even Ultima online is a clone of WoW.
Basically what the creators of Blizzard did was create a templar flux in the subspace barrier, allowing them to place their operatives onboard all other game creation companies in order to create a world of gaming in which your only option will be to play WoW Cloned games.
Though their final strategy is yet unknown to me, I am sure if I search enough “(insert game name here” is a clone of wow” posts I will soon uncover the plan. Keep in mind there are variants of this such as this one where the wow cloned game, in this case, Warhammer Online is mentioned before WoW and is only comparing it to a small subsection of the wow game, once again in this case battlegrounds. It’s pretty tricky to figure out but I think I’ve got it mastered.
I’m still waiting on someone to describe how other games have implemented crafting into their games after WoW came out because like all idea’s they were first invented by Blizzard. Lucky for many of us gamers, Blizzard was able to breach that subspace barrier, in order to allow us to have crafting systems… and pvp… and just about every other feature in our games before wow came out.
The franchise Warhammer was around before Warcraft.
As for WAR the MMO, I agree the insta respawn no loss death in PVP looses my intrest quick. No loss insta spawn PVP sucks. Might as well be playing Call of Duty.
EVE has spoiled me in PVP. Death actually matters.
For a fantasy MMO I play LOTRO. It is my PVE change of pace when I want a break from the hardcore pvp EVE has.
For future MMO's I got my eyes on Earthrise, Fallen Earth, and Champions (and of course what LA/Bioware are cooking up)
WAR/AOC are a bit overhyped in my opinion. These are going to draw quite the annoying bunch of kids to it.
The franchise Warhammer was around before Warcraft. As for WAR the MMO, I agree the insta respawn no loss death in PVP looses my intrest quick. No loss insta spawn PVP sucks. Might as well be playing Call of Duty. EVE has spoiled me in PVP. Death actually matters. For a fantasy MMO I play LOTRO. It is my PVE change of pace when I want a break from the hardcore pvp EVE has. For future MMO's I got my eyes on Earthrise, Fallen Earth, and Champions (and of course what LA/Bioware are cooking up) WAR/AOC are a bit overhyped in my opinion. These are going to draw quite the annoying bunch of kids to it.
Just to let ya know they've not actually released what the final death mechanics are..but if you enjoy EvE's punishment mechanics you probably wont like whatever they do come up with WAR..just letting ya know there's nothing in stone..infact they've not mentioned death penalty mechanics other than a couple of ideas.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't know... I think DAoC veterans are for a big disappointment. These guys want to make BIG money and sadly there is only one way ->> Theme Park MMOs. So I think this is what WAR will be. I thought WOW was a Theme Park, but I'm afraid WAR will redefine the term and make WOW look like a true MMORPG. We are in a downward spiral where every title makes the previous one look good.
I don't know... I think DAoC veterans are for a big disappointment. These guys want to make BIG money and sadly there is only one way ->> Theme Park MMOs. So I think this is what WAR will be. I thought WOW was a Theme Park, but I'm afraid WAR will redefine the term and make WOW look like a true MMORPG. We are in a downward spiral where every title makes the previous one look good.
Hey hope I'm wrong.
Without getting in trouble and a DAOC vet i can tell you %100 you re wrong
I don't know... I think DAoC veterans are for a big disappointment. These guys want to make BIG money and sadly there is only one way ->> Theme Park MMOs. So I think this is what WAR will be. I thought WOW was a Theme Park, but I'm afraid WAR will redefine the term and make WOW look like a true MMORPG. We are in a downward spiral where every title makes the previous one look good.
Hey hope I'm wrong.
After reading through this entire post too I think you are quite wrong too... Earlier on you had my sympathy but it has faded somewhat... What you loved about EQ's immersion, and disliked in WOW's watered down world does not translate well to this discussion.
The hardcore WAR lore fans are going to like this game because it really is trying to stay true to the TT while also having a fun play mechanic. The TT game IS silly, over the top, and a bit cartoony, that is what people like about it. There are many other 'realistic' war strategy games out there... WAR online just needs to be fun. The fact that they redesigned the game to add keeps is a huge testament to this.
WoW opened alot of pve style people to the casual fun of PVP.. these people along with die-hard DAOC fans are going to FLOCK to this game... and it will feel a bit like a THEME PARK, and people are going to LOVE it for that very reason..
A little off topic.. but I think you are more frustrated by the lack of challenge in modern mmorpg's, esp. pve content... that I CAN sympathise with... I miss falling through traps in the stairs of Lower Guk in EQ and just dying! or being a little careless and next thing you know TRAAAIN! oh I miss that stuff... but this is not the game that needs that... this really is a WAR THEME PARK!
maybe for you... maybe not.. but if they pull it off it is going to blow up big.
my friends and I are all DAoC vets and really are looking forward to WAR
WAR may blow up big and it may not but it will bring a lot of fans of DAoC and RVR as well as PVE players as well with its PQs (which seem awesome) but again just to remind people
WAR is a PVPRVR game and sure PVP is in there but you will need to group/PVP at one point in time if you want to get the best loot or get to the end game..
Maby it will be just "a WoW BG". But if so, it might be a GOOD WoW BG that even I can enjoy. Since I think WoW is garbage and WAR IMO is how WoW should have been from start to me.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
I know posting this here is asking for flames, but I really intend to buy the game and I'm honestly worried about this, so I'd like to be proved wrong. BTW I asked the same question at the only-war general forum (with same nick, you can go and check) and in the end it wasn't clear that WAR ¬= Big WOW BG. Specially because of the non existant death penalty that I'm afraid will contribute to a disorganized battle where everybody is dying, respawning, running to the front, dying, respawning... ad eternum and without a clue about what is going on.
First of all, i understand what you mean, and i fully agree. The low respawn timer, and withit the fast battle rejoins in the Alterarac Valley + a lot of npc killed the complete pvp experience there, and it was just plain boring without any sense. And even the fights where nowhere near fun.
But now i have to speak verbosely to explain where i come from, and what i want to illustrate you.
First of all, i am a mmorpg vet and started with UO(pre trammel).. and in all honestly i favor that kind of game (of course with new and modern technic.. graphics, controlls and a lil more content.. after all UO was tiny) with ffa pvp, full loot, skill based and more of a sandbox approach.
But after the dead of UO (trammel) i joined DAoC and it really lacked in a lot of points in comparation to UO. Like
- unability to attack your realm mates, even if they are the greatest idiots, harass you or grief you.. that was one of the big let downs for me.. in the beginning
- the need to level up to max. level to be able to pvp
but after all, it was a great experience and one of the best pvp games, and is in my mind within the top 3 of pvp games of all times.
It was like a lot of people already described it here.. the fight for your realm, tactical and deep group battles(without the fast rejoin.. when you won the battle it was over, and you watched out for another one), a lot of incentives to fight for your realm, like the admission to enter DF, which brought you a fun pvp rush, Realm points(and withit a lot of pvp skills, which didnt imbalance the whole system completely, like it is in WoW with its items, but gave you an edge) and money(for potions, new armor or whatever), or the fight for the relic(another advantage for the daily pvp fight and pve.. if you liked it.. i avoided it as much as possible, and until ToA there was not much need to pve except to reach lvl50). And so on.
And yeah, you got a lot of mass battles, which were fine from time to time, even if i personally prefered the more tacticall group battles, but what so ever.
I played DAoC around 3 years, until the ToA expansion(it was some kind of wow itemization,, even before the release of WoW.. and i and a lot of other really hated it) and a little afterwards. After that i started to play WoW.
WoW got some advantages over DAoC. The movement controll was a lot smoother, but well DAoC was a old game, so not really a surprise here. The animation were a lot better.. in DaoC the character run like they had a stick in the rear. The pve to get to the max level was not so much a pain in the ass, and it was overall quite ok, for someone like me, which really didnt like pve at all.
Now i have to come to the pvp in WoW.. and well it was a completely let down.. it was completely senseless and just another grind.. well, i grinded up to Rank11/12?(epic mount) played the instances and a lil open pvp(as long as it was possible..) and quit then. After all i played around 7 month.. i can not say that it was a completely waste of time, because it was at least a little bit fun in the beginning,, but the pvp was just not my cup of tea, and rather boring and more of a grind than anything else. And well.. i am not a pve guy,, so i was never into the raid thing.
Ok, so now you know my background, and i will describe how i see WAR in comparasion to DAoC and WoW.. i read almost all information available(including betaleaks, beta leaked rvr vids and well.. everything available at the moment.. i did not played it up to now and i am not in the beta).
In my mind WAR is the child of WoW and DAoC.. they try to take the best of both and mix it in one game.. and improve a little bit upon both.
So you got the more polished and detailed world from WoW(of course in a WAR theme), you got the more polished and well rounded GUI from WoW(of course a little bit improved to the fitting of WAR), you got the better animation and controlls from WoW.. all these things tend to some case, that WAR looks a lot like WoW at the first look. And they also intruced the instances, called scenarios in WAR(a lot more as in WoW, but all in all almost the same).
The combat tactics and skills are more from DAoC(and improved upon it, with another two layers, tactics(a kind of stance which will give you some advantages in different areas, like better defense, more attack or a lot of other things.. you put them up, and they are active as long as you dont switch to another stance).. you got moral abilities, which are a of long cool down abilities(without a cooldown), but you have to reach high moral to use them(and you only get it from combat.. so you cant use them really often), which are in most cases quite powerful and if you use them wisely with a good team play, they can really change the outcome of a small scale battle(group battle). And you got three talent trees with your common skills( a mix of the wow talent tree system and the three skill lines of DAoC) which give you a lot of available skills.. all in all every character has around 65 skills, a lot of them with cool downs from 10s-60s, and with different effects, costs and usefullness. They have also introduced the ability to target a offence and a defence target.. so you usually target always two ppl, an ally and an enemy.. and a lot of the skills will have effect to both. Like drain damage to your enemy and heal this damage to your ally. Which will give even more tactical options as well as will simplifiy the handling. And i guess it will be good for the game with this amount of tactical options. So overall, it will be more tactical than WoW and DAoC, with more combat and team tactics.
You will also have different strategical targets, like keeps to claim for your realm and you guild, which will give you different advantages(and one of them to reach the endgoal to capture the enemy city). Will the world pvp like Alterac Vally? No, you will not have a death penalty, but you will(if not rezzed from one your team mates in the battle, which also some disadvanteges.. like no active buffs, not full health.. and the healer will just have some time to rezz you, and it is not really cheap to do so) die, you will respawn in the warcamp of your realm outside of the contested area.. and withit you have to run back to your actual battle, which results in
a) 10+ minute run without buffs, without allys
b) the danger to get killed from another enemy during the way
So in the end you have no insta respawn into the battle like in Alterac Valley, so the Battle will end definite, and the winner will claim their victory and can brag about it. But there will also always the possibility, that another group will add to your combat, be it ally, or enemy and can turn around the almost certain outcome of a battle, sometimes it is a curse and sometimes is a blessing, but this randomness of open pvp is what makes it great.
And you will also get XP(to level up) and renown(the new kind of Realm point, and withit you can buy renown abilities, almost the same like the realm abilities from daoc which will you grant another edge in the daily pvp fights.. and increase your renown rank, with shiny names, where you can proud of).
Finally when you and your realm fight successfully over some time(weeks) against the other realm or with other words kill more enemey, sack in more keeps, defend more keeps, win more scenarios(instances) or simple put are more successful, you will get the chance to capture the enemy capital city. There you have to fight within the city, some kind of street to street fight against the enemy in some kind of mass battle.. and if you finally kill them, you have the option to kill the king(some kind of pve encounter, which will give you a few items), which will grant you access to their city dungeons and Public Quests(another pve options for more items and money) and so on. From there, the enemy will try to fight back, and push your realm out of the city.(there will be some kind of time, and as longer the timer run, the more help your enemy will get(npcs or the like, i dont know exactly about the kind of help, or how long the timer have to run before you cant hold the city any longer.. but it looks like at least a few days up to a week). And after they pushed you out of their city, the fight starts at the beginning. One sidenote... the longer you hold your capital the more your capital will level up, and grant you access to different dungeons and public quests.. with other world, easy way to earn some money or get some items.
About the items in WAR.. i hope, and as much as i read up to now will not have the effect like in WAR, it will be easy to have even playing field when it comes down to items. There are a lot of good items from different resources, but it will not be really difficult to get them, and they will not as much better as the normal stuff.
And one more.. the keeps. They are much bigger, and much more open than the old DAoC keeps. You will have a lot of siege equipment, like ballistas(you can shoot with them at players, or other siege equipment.. ground AE), battering ram, to destroy the different gates, oil as defense and so on. The keeps have an outer wall, a huge inner area and the keep it self.. overall at least twice to fourfold as huge as the DAoC keeps.. no comparision to wow(well larger than the warsong instance)
All in all it looks like, that WAR will be a lot better than DAoC and WoW, at least when it comes down to pvp/rvr.. there is just one little thing, which worries me.
And well, that are the scenarios. All in all they are the fast way to pvp, but it is the same in the long run boring pvp shit like in WoW. There you have little respawns(as described in one of your quotes from 45 sec. or something along this line), fast rejoins, and overall they are almost the same as the BGs in WoW.. and i guess we all agree they are shit in the long run.
I understand why Mythic introduced them.. it is the easy and fast way for casual players to enter pvp, without worring about anything. But if you get more renown/time as in the open world pvp, and more points to the pool to capture the city(again per time), it could easily the case that almost everyone will just do them, although they are boring.. but i know that the usual player is like a sheep, and will do thing where he can get more renown, more items even if it is boring instead of the interesting things without as much bounties.
So there is really a tough balancing between the renown from scenarios and the rest.. overall the renown(and points for the capture pool) should be not as high as the random zerger will get from zerging(which is not a lot)/per hour.. and all other more involving activities(organized group battles, organized mass battles, keep raiding and so on) in the open world pvp should give a lot more renown.
And if Mythic fail with this kind of balancing, then.. WAR will indeed almost the same as WoW BGS.. because you can just play them. If they will balance it in a good way(so that open world pvp is in any case more rewarding than scenarios) it will nothing like the WoW pvp, it will be much more like DAoC.. and improved upon it. Now they are in the RvR(open world pvp test.. finished rank3 recently) beta test, and i really hope, that they carefully watch how much renown points and capture pool points every encounter will give in the avarage, and balance it accordingly. But i didnt read much about it, at least in the beta leaks i am aware of.
I hope this post helped you somewhat to get a clue what WAR is about.
PS: There are also some other issues, but i think those will be easily solved within the beta, like the balance between ranged and melee, and a few other.
PPS: Sorry for my not so fluent english, but it isnt my mother tounge, So pardon for my grammer... spelling should be ok.
Originally posted by Apraxis Will the world pvp like Alterac Vally? No, you will not have a death penalty, but you will(if not rezzed from one your team mates in the battle, which also some disadvanteges.. like no active buffs, not full health.. and the healer will just have some time to rezz you, and it is not really cheap to do so) die, you will respawn in the warcamp of your realm outside of the contested area.. and withit you have to run back to your actual battle, which results in a) 10+ minute run without buffs, without allys
First of all thank you for such an elaborate reply.
But let me stop here, becasue this is very important, and it will shape how the rest of the system will feel. Where did you get such information? Because I haven't been able to find any official information regarding how long will the travel back be, and in what conditions will it be. Aren't you just translating DAoC penalty to WAR, just imagining it will be the same? Because reading what people have writen in this thread, we don't know yet. It might be 30 minutes (that would be something), it might be 10 minutes (not bad, depending on other factors could work), it might be 1-5 minutes (that's what I am afraid they will do).
Comments
Well if my memory is serving me well today from what I remember originally they were under the assumption that Instanced PvP was way more popular and more important. This assumption came from the fact that WoW is extremely popular and everyone plays BG's and Arena's there for PvP. Its also as we all know a wrong one..because Instanced PvP Sucks its great for a quick get in get out but to do it everyday is lame.
When they opened the flood gates of external closed beta the torrents of feedback came in on this (as if they didn't already have a ton from saying that in a podcast previously) they set to work on making Open RvR more important & adding Keep sieging silently (dev time on this probably took months its a huge change!) (city seiging was ALWAYS a part of the game).
This isn't some just take down the server and install it and take two months to internally test it..no they'd been working on this silently for probably months then announced adding it in and taking down the beta servers to internally test. Its a pretty huge change..it makes sense to take down the servers to impliment and make sure its not going to be a huge crash fest. (they are doing mainly focus testing it'd be pointless to leave up the servers and make people play the same thing over adn over only to give the same feedback over and over).
WAR has yet to 'take away' anything that people have been expecting or that they've promised...I consider this listen and add or adjust the game without removing key features attitude a rather good sign that they are paying attention....Just their Initial research like any game was off kelter.
Every game has added major changes during beta phases, the original design for a game is just that the original design...designs change and evolve depending on feedback and feesibility all the time...every single one...just some take Away more than they Add.
I've yet to see any game ever...especially MMOs..that isn't a vastly different finished product than what went on paper. There is no such thing as perfect from the start design.
So basically you're saying that they have no idea how to innovate. I guess it's lucky that their users are smarter than they are.
What surprises me is how many companies think that copying a video game is a succesfull strategy. People have already played enough WoW/EQ and if innovations to the genre don't come fast enough than people will get bored of each new WoW clone pretty quickly.
So they're implementing sieges in WAR...will the game be territory based or capture the flag based?
Sieges will be territory based. If your going to call a game a WoW clone at least do some research on it. The sieges have been covered in more than one podcast and anyone with half a brain can figure out how it will be run. The tomb of knowledge will be innovation if it delivers what they say. Granted thats not specifically PvP (though I'm willing to bet the tomb will fit into RvR).Please, dont call a game a clone based off what you hear. Research it for yourself or go away.
ROFLMAO @ all my attempts to get you WAR fanbois to face reality...i'm done...there's no point...
Do you know what a "genre" is?
I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous.
Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
ROFLMAO @ all my attempts to get you WAR fanbois to face reality...i'm done...there's no point...
Do you know what a "genre" is?
I work in entertainment industry and I can tell you that your arguments about some product "copying" some other product within the same genre are totally and utterly ridiculous.
Go try yelling at "Saving Private Ryan" screenwriters that they were "copying" "The Dirty Dozen" because it's got WWII and guns and a bunch of privates on a mission and I can tell you you'd get kicked out of the room so fast you'd think your ass just got a new warp drive.
You da man.But, as someone said, looks like WOW's BG with steroids.
Thanks, but to me WAR looks just like DAoC on steroids.
Thanks, but to me WAR looks just like DAoC on steroids.
Depends on what you're looking at imo.
Combat = Daoc , Keep system = Daoc, world structure = WoW BG (Multi AV)
Thanks, but to me WAR looks just like DAoC on steroids.
Depends on what you're looking at imo.
Combat = Daoc , Keep system = Daoc, world structure = WoW BG (Multi AV)
Exactly.
Different people find different things important, so it's all in the eye of the beholder. For example I find AoC much more similar to WoW than WAR is - simply because the gfx and combat system are not that important to me. I'm much more intrigued by the whole living dynamic world thing they're doing in WAR.
However, you won't see me yelling "AoC is copying WoW" because the world's fixed, the endgame focuses on me-me-me gear grind, you've got PvE raids and you can't level through PvP. These are some of the possible features of games that we call MMORPGs and it's perfectly legitimate for developers to pick and choose whatever mechanic or feature they feel would make their game better. Some people are perfectly fine with those listed but don't like the gfx and combat system in WoW - to them AoC really looks revolutionary and I have no problem with that.
I can say "this feature is not doing it for me" or "I like games with this mechanic better" or even "i fear that this mechanic is going to go bad because it turned out this way in game x". What I cannot say with a straight face is "this game is copying that one" just because I don't happen to like some of the features they share and completely ignore all the differences between them.
WH has a better grafic system then DOAC but they are manly the same, beside for the classes. But yea the grafic allso look kind of wows grafic, but arnt.
Though that the target system, and the conbo/ skill use seems like something from a assian game and from wow. The combat it self seems like DAOC, "stik, combat". But from what i have seen the skills now are on timers as in wow, and not as in DAOC.
About the class system, one can say the got it from WOW, but no. Its seem more or less like the RAbilitys from DAOC, and that the classes beside this allso has other ways to grow there chrs in, that allso are the same as in DAOC, and that come from rvr.
Beside that no WH is not a WOW bg, becuse WH is a rvr system and nothing like WOW, GW, or any other game. Its rvr in small aeras, and rvr in big areas.
Beta:
GW, WOW, AOC, DAOC, DOD, L2, VG.
Playd:
GW necro msx, WOW never maxd, DAOC reaver-paladin-cabalist-vamp max, L2 never maxd, VG never maxd.
Play:
Daoc - Paladin. Classic.
A script: A group of intelligence officers approach a special forces unit with a special mission: go up-river into the remote Vietnamese jungle to find Private James Francis Ryan and have him sent home immediately because three of his brothers have already died in the war. The movie is about the harrowing journey into the heart of darkness and a soldiers sharp sense of duty, honor, and brotherhood.
My arguement is that the writer of this script is copying Apocalypse Now and Saving Private Ryan just like Warhammer is with DAoC and WoW.
Your agruement is that they are both war movies and thats just the genre so they are not copying anything.
I'm sure this line of thinking helps you with whatever it is you do in the entertainment industry and with this line of thinking I am sure you are very successful. You'll make a great "new" TV show about a driver and a high tech talking car that travel across america solving crimes - it's nothing like Knight Rider because this time the driver is a sexy woman and the car is green and even if it is a copy so what it's just the "genre" right?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I don't see any similarities to WoW at all!
Graphics are different...
Quests are different...
Animations are different...
RvR is different...
Classes are different...
UI is different...
Mythic is different...
etc...
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Read this carefully and use all of your attention:A script: A group of intelligence officers approach a special forces unit with a special mission: go up-river into the remote Vietnamese jungle to find Private James Francis Ryan and have him sent home immediately because three of his brothers have already died in the war. The movie is about the harrowing journey into the heart of darkness and a soldiers sharp sense of duty, honor, and brotherhood.
My arguement is that the writer of this script is copying Apocalypse Now and Saving Private Ryan just like Warhammer is with DAoC and WoW.
Your agruement is that they are both war movies and thats just the genre so they are not copying anything.
I'm sure this line of thinking helps you with whatever it is you do in the entertainment industry and with this line of thinking I am sure you are very successful. You'll make a great "new" TV show about a driver and a high tech talking car that travel across america solving crimes - it's nothing like Knight Rider because this time the driver is a sexy woman and the car is green and even if it is a copy so what it's just the "genre" right?
Look, this is pointless. I say this and you say that. We can go on like this forever. If you choose to see WAR as a WoW clone then it's your call.
I'm on the other hand hyped out about WAR precisely because I see it as quite different from WoW and in all the right places to boot. If you want a WoW hater, here I am. I've been gaming and rpgin right from almost the beginning of computer games and pnp rpgs and I see WoW as the greatest calamity that happened to MMORPG genre - a shocking devolution of online gaming.
However, it is my informed opinion that WAR is bringing quite a bit of new stuff to the table. And don't start yelling "sandboxyness" or "classless" because that's actually where MMORPGs started. I'm not saying that it won't return bigtime but for WAR in particular the iconic classes and faction based RvR is the only real way to go if you want to stay true to the IP.
Mythic devs decided to base WAR on tabletop battles and not the WHFRPG (which I played and GMd, thank you) where a somewhat less "iconic" approach and more sandboxy feel would be appropriate. However the structure of that hypothetic game would have to be quite similar to that in Tabula Rasa - a global fight against an AI adversary. IMO, Games Workshop people made the right choice when they ditched this (The first Warhammer Online) and gave the job to Mythic to do their iconic RvR game based on TT battles part of the IP.
As I said, I too am sick and tired of levels and classes and have been so even before the MMORPGs appeared. I'm still shocked that pen and paper D&D is still more complex in rules than all the computer RPGs so far... While we, in our days, considered D&D light, kiddy stuff and played GURPS which is immensely more complex and completely class-less and level-less. I hope to see something like this in a future MMORPG, but not in WAR. The setting and the tone of TT favor classes and levels and if I had to design it I'd put my personal preferences aside and go with classes , levels and (maybe) 2 factions. You may call it a WoW clone because of this and this is your right but imo you'll be missing a lot of really fantastic new and original stuff in order to prove some abstract point.
/let me just add...
...that when i heard WAR is going to be a class and level based game it didn't shock or disappoint me nearly as much as when I heard that Aoc is going that route... If ever there was a fantasy IP where class-less and level-less sandbox would work absolutely perfectly then this would be Conan's gritty Hyborea. What a waste...
Guys this is a pointless discussion as I said before it`s like "The chicken and the Egg" thing.There's only a single truth...You like it or you don`t like it.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
How can you say, WAR is a clone of WoW, when Blizzard has copied everything from Games Workshop.
Mechanics in WAR come from DAoC/EQ1/AC.
And considering that WoW is a new game compared to DAoC/EQ1/AC would that not make WoW a hybrid clone of those three games, based of the IP from Warhammer(gamesworkshop) ?
If the OP has any questions on how WAR will handle RvR, should he not then download the trial of DAoC to get an idea?
Just my 2cents.
"It''s like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG''s NGE
I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
"Some people play tennis, I erode the human soul."
-Tycho
No, WAR isnt just a WoW BG.
Its a Dark Age of Camelot Battleground :P
I gotta ask though, why are you concerned?
I take it that since your coming from EQ your into the whole raiding thing. Not really my cup of tea but eh whatever.
Ever play DAOC?
Its pvp on a higher level.
Its in many ways just like real War in terms of strategy.
Add better graphics, next gen tech and collision detection into that mix and the pvp is much more enjoyable, much more strategic and much more rewarding than WoWs could be.
If your worried about the pve aspect of WAR, well lets just say that I have no respect for pve raiding and those who do it to feel leet about beating a programmed encounter.
Yes, It's exactly like wow, In fact! Every game ever made in the history of mankind is a copy of wow. I've discovered this through my extensive search of these forums. AoC, War, VG, hell even Ultima online is a clone of WoW.
Basically what the creators of Blizzard did was create a templar flux in the subspace barrier, allowing them to place their operatives onboard all other game creation companies in order to create a world of gaming in which your only option will be to play WoW Cloned games.
Though their final strategy is yet unknown to me, I am sure if I search enough “(insert game name here” is a clone of wow” posts I will soon uncover the plan. Keep in mind there are variants of this such as this one where the wow cloned game, in this case, Warhammer Online is mentioned before WoW and is only comparing it to a small subsection of the wow game, once again in this case battlegrounds. It’s pretty tricky to figure out but I think I’ve got it mastered.
I’m still waiting on someone to describe how other games have implemented crafting into their games after WoW came out because like all idea’s they were first invented by Blizzard. Lucky for many of us gamers, Blizzard was able to breach that subspace barrier, in order to allow us to have crafting systems… and pvp… and just about every other feature in our games before wow came out.
I say let the WAR bashers have their day, since they obviously know all there is about WAR and its development.
WAR and everything else that ever was is just a clone of WoW!
Blizzard invented everything that was and will be, so there ya go. Enjoy stroking your E-peen!
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
The franchise Warhammer was around before Warcraft.
As for WAR the MMO, I agree the insta respawn no loss death in PVP looses my intrest quick. No loss insta spawn PVP sucks. Might as well be playing Call of Duty.
EVE has spoiled me in PVP. Death actually matters.
For a fantasy MMO I play LOTRO. It is my PVE change of pace when I want a break from the hardcore pvp EVE has.
For future MMO's I got my eyes on Earthrise, Fallen Earth, and Champions (and of course what LA/Bioware are cooking up)
WAR/AOC are a bit overhyped in my opinion. These are going to draw quite the annoying bunch of kids to it.
SHOHADAKU
Just to let ya know they've not actually released what the final death mechanics are..but if you enjoy EvE's punishment mechanics you probably wont like whatever they do come up with WAR..just letting ya know there's nothing in stone..infact they've not mentioned death penalty mechanics other than a couple of ideas.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't know... I think DAoC veterans are for a big disappointment. These guys want to make BIG money and sadly there is only one way ->> Theme Park MMOs. So I think this is what WAR will be. I thought WOW was a Theme Park, but I'm afraid WAR will redefine the term and make WOW look like a true MMORPG. We are in a downward spiral where every title makes the previous one look good.
Hey hope I'm wrong.
After reading through this entire post too I think you are quite wrong too... Earlier on you had my sympathy but it has faded somewhat... What you loved about EQ's immersion, and disliked in WOW's watered down world does not translate well to this discussion.
The hardcore WAR lore fans are going to like this game because it really is trying to stay true to the TT while also having a fun play mechanic. The TT game IS silly, over the top, and a bit cartoony, that is what people like about it. There are many other 'realistic' war strategy games out there... WAR online just needs to be fun. The fact that they redesigned the game to add keeps is a huge testament to this.
WoW opened alot of pve style people to the casual fun of PVP.. these people along with die-hard DAOC fans are going to FLOCK to this game... and it will feel a bit like a THEME PARK, and people are going to LOVE it for that very reason..
A little off topic.. but I think you are more frustrated by the lack of challenge in modern mmorpg's, esp. pve content... that I CAN sympathise with... I miss falling through traps in the stairs of Lower Guk in EQ and just dying! or being a little careless and next thing you know TRAAAIN! oh I miss that stuff... but this is not the game that needs that... this really is a WAR THEME PARK!
maybe for you... maybe not.. but if they pull it off it is going to blow up big.
i pretty much agree with everything just said
my friends and I are all DAoC vets and really are looking forward to WAR
WAR may blow up big and it may not but it will bring a lot of fans of DAoC and RVR as well as PVE players as well with its PQs (which seem awesome) but again just to remind people
WAR is a PVPRVR game and sure PVP is in there but you will need to group/PVP at one point in time if you want to get the best loot or get to the end game..
OP:
Maby it will be just "a WoW BG". But if so, it might be a GOOD WoW BG that even I can enjoy. Since I think WoW is garbage and WAR IMO is how WoW should have been from start to me.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
First of all, i understand what you mean, and i fully agree. The low respawn timer, and withit the fast battle rejoins in the Alterarac Valley + a lot of npc killed the complete pvp experience there, and it was just plain boring without any sense. And even the fights where nowhere near fun.
But now i have to speak verbosely to explain where i come from, and what i want to illustrate you.
First of all, i am a mmorpg vet and started with UO(pre trammel).. and in all honestly i favor that kind of game (of course with new and modern technic.. graphics, controlls and a lil more content.. after all UO was tiny) with ffa pvp, full loot, skill based and more of a sandbox approach.
But after the dead of UO (trammel) i joined DAoC and it really lacked in a lot of points in comparation to UO. Like
- unability to attack your realm mates, even if they are the greatest idiots, harass you or grief you.. that was one of the big let downs for me.. in the beginning
- the need to level up to max. level to be able to pvp
but after all, it was a great experience and one of the best pvp games, and is in my mind within the top 3 of pvp games of all times.
It was like a lot of people already described it here.. the fight for your realm, tactical and deep group battles(without the fast rejoin.. when you won the battle it was over, and you watched out for another one), a lot of incentives to fight for your realm, like the admission to enter DF, which brought you a fun pvp rush, Realm points(and withit a lot of pvp skills, which didnt imbalance the whole system completely, like it is in WoW with its items, but gave you an edge) and money(for potions, new armor or whatever), or the fight for the relic(another advantage for the daily pvp fight and pve.. if you liked it.. i avoided it as much as possible, and until ToA there was not much need to pve except to reach lvl50). And so on.
And yeah, you got a lot of mass battles, which were fine from time to time, even if i personally prefered the more tacticall group battles, but what so ever.
I played DAoC around 3 years, until the ToA expansion(it was some kind of wow itemization,, even before the release of WoW.. and i and a lot of other really hated it) and a little afterwards. After that i started to play WoW.
WoW got some advantages over DAoC. The movement controll was a lot smoother, but well DAoC was a old game, so not really a surprise here. The animation were a lot better.. in DaoC the character run like they had a stick in the rear. The pve to get to the max level was not so much a pain in the ass, and it was overall quite ok, for someone like me, which really didnt like pve at all.
Now i have to come to the pvp in WoW.. and well it was a completely let down.. it was completely senseless and just another grind.. well, i grinded up to Rank11/12?(epic mount) played the instances and a lil open pvp(as long as it was possible..) and quit then. After all i played around 7 month.. i can not say that it was a completely waste of time, because it was at least a little bit fun in the beginning,, but the pvp was just not my cup of tea, and rather boring and more of a grind than anything else. And well.. i am not a pve guy,, so i was never into the raid thing.
Ok, so now you know my background, and i will describe how i see WAR in comparasion to DAoC and WoW.. i read almost all information available(including betaleaks, beta leaked rvr vids and well.. everything available at the moment.. i did not played it up to now and i am not in the beta).
In my mind WAR is the child of WoW and DAoC.. they try to take the best of both and mix it in one game.. and improve a little bit upon both.
So you got the more polished and detailed world from WoW(of course in a WAR theme), you got the more polished and well rounded GUI from WoW(of course a little bit improved to the fitting of WAR), you got the better animation and controlls from WoW.. all these things tend to some case, that WAR looks a lot like WoW at the first look. And they also intruced the instances, called scenarios in WAR(a lot more as in WoW, but all in all almost the same).
The combat tactics and skills are more from DAoC(and improved upon it, with another two layers, tactics(a kind of stance which will give you some advantages in different areas, like better defense, more attack or a lot of other things.. you put them up, and they are active as long as you dont switch to another stance).. you got moral abilities, which are a of long cool down abilities(without a cooldown), but you have to reach high moral to use them(and you only get it from combat.. so you cant use them really often), which are in most cases quite powerful and if you use them wisely with a good team play, they can really change the outcome of a small scale battle(group battle). And you got three talent trees with your common skills( a mix of the wow talent tree system and the three skill lines of DAoC) which give you a lot of available skills.. all in all every character has around 65 skills, a lot of them with cool downs from 10s-60s, and with different effects, costs and usefullness. They have also introduced the ability to target a offence and a defence target.. so you usually target always two ppl, an ally and an enemy.. and a lot of the skills will have effect to both. Like drain damage to your enemy and heal this damage to your ally. Which will give even more tactical options as well as will simplifiy the handling. And i guess it will be good for the game with this amount of tactical options. So overall, it will be more tactical than WoW and DAoC, with more combat and team tactics.
You will also have different strategical targets, like keeps to claim for your realm and you guild, which will give you different advantages(and one of them to reach the endgoal to capture the enemy city). Will the world pvp like Alterac Vally? No, you will not have a death penalty, but you will(if not rezzed from one your team mates in the battle, which also some disadvanteges.. like no active buffs, not full health.. and the healer will just have some time to rezz you, and it is not really cheap to do so) die, you will respawn in the warcamp of your realm outside of the contested area.. and withit you have to run back to your actual battle, which results in
a) 10+ minute run without buffs, without allys
b) the danger to get killed from another enemy during the way
So in the end you have no insta respawn into the battle like in Alterac Valley, so the Battle will end definite, and the winner will claim their victory and can brag about it. But there will also always the possibility, that another group will add to your combat, be it ally, or enemy and can turn around the almost certain outcome of a battle, sometimes it is a curse and sometimes is a blessing, but this randomness of open pvp is what makes it great.
And you will also get XP(to level up) and renown(the new kind of Realm point, and withit you can buy renown abilities, almost the same like the realm abilities from daoc which will you grant another edge in the daily pvp fights.. and increase your renown rank, with shiny names, where you can proud of).
Finally when you and your realm fight successfully over some time(weeks) against the other realm or with other words kill more enemey, sack in more keeps, defend more keeps, win more scenarios(instances) or simple put are more successful, you will get the chance to capture the enemy capital city. There you have to fight within the city, some kind of street to street fight against the enemy in some kind of mass battle.. and if you finally kill them, you have the option to kill the king(some kind of pve encounter, which will give you a few items), which will grant you access to their city dungeons and Public Quests(another pve options for more items and money) and so on. From there, the enemy will try to fight back, and push your realm out of the city.(there will be some kind of time, and as longer the timer run, the more help your enemy will get(npcs or the like, i dont know exactly about the kind of help, or how long the timer have to run before you cant hold the city any longer.. but it looks like at least a few days up to a week). And after they pushed you out of their city, the fight starts at the beginning. One sidenote... the longer you hold your capital the more your capital will level up, and grant you access to different dungeons and public quests.. with other world, easy way to earn some money or get some items.
About the items in WAR.. i hope, and as much as i read up to now will not have the effect like in WAR, it will be easy to have even playing field when it comes down to items. There are a lot of good items from different resources, but it will not be really difficult to get them, and they will not as much better as the normal stuff.
And one more.. the keeps. They are much bigger, and much more open than the old DAoC keeps. You will have a lot of siege equipment, like ballistas(you can shoot with them at players, or other siege equipment.. ground AE), battering ram, to destroy the different gates, oil as defense and so on. The keeps have an outer wall, a huge inner area and the keep it self.. overall at least twice to fourfold as huge as the DAoC keeps.. no comparision to wow(well larger than the warsong instance)
All in all it looks like, that WAR will be a lot better than DAoC and WoW, at least when it comes down to pvp/rvr.. there is just one little thing, which worries me.
And well, that are the scenarios. All in all they are the fast way to pvp, but it is the same in the long run boring pvp shit like in WoW. There you have little respawns(as described in one of your quotes from 45 sec. or something along this line), fast rejoins, and overall they are almost the same as the BGs in WoW.. and i guess we all agree they are shit in the long run.
I understand why Mythic introduced them.. it is the easy and fast way for casual players to enter pvp, without worring about anything. But if you get more renown/time as in the open world pvp, and more points to the pool to capture the city(again per time), it could easily the case that almost everyone will just do them, although they are boring.. but i know that the usual player is like a sheep, and will do thing where he can get more renown, more items even if it is boring instead of the interesting things without as much bounties.
So there is really a tough balancing between the renown from scenarios and the rest.. overall the renown(and points for the capture pool) should be not as high as the random zerger will get from zerging(which is not a lot)/per hour.. and all other more involving activities(organized group battles, organized mass battles, keep raiding and so on) in the open world pvp should give a lot more renown.
And if Mythic fail with this kind of balancing, then.. WAR will indeed almost the same as WoW BGS.. because you can just play them. If they will balance it in a good way(so that open world pvp is in any case more rewarding than scenarios) it will nothing like the WoW pvp, it will be much more like DAoC.. and improved upon it. Now they are in the RvR(open world pvp test.. finished rank3 recently) beta test, and i really hope, that they carefully watch how much renown points and capture pool points every encounter will give in the avarage, and balance it accordingly. But i didnt read much about it, at least in the beta leaks i am aware of.
I hope this post helped you somewhat to get a clue what WAR is about.
PS: There are also some other issues, but i think those will be easily solved within the beta, like the balance between ranged and melee, and a few other.
PPS: Sorry for my not so fluent english, but it isnt my mother tounge, So pardon for my grammer... spelling should be ok.
I think that was possibly the longest post I have ever seen on these forums...
But let me stop here, becasue this is very important, and it will shape how the rest of the system will feel. Where did you get such information? Because I haven't been able to find any official information regarding how long will the travel back be, and in what conditions will it be. Aren't you just translating DAoC penalty to WAR, just imagining it will be the same? Because reading what people have writen in this thread, we don't know yet. It might be 30 minutes (that would be something), it might be 10 minutes (not bad, depending on other factors could work), it might be 1-5 minutes (that's what I am afraid they will do).