Except for people who aren't sure if they are quitting or not, and can be in this state for months on end, waiting for a reason to play again. But I think you're correct as to why Guild Wars isn't on there. As to how he gets these numbers, I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate, and use a lot of statistics to come up with the results, but they are probably pretty close.
He mentions that he wont list a game without good data, so what's on there at least has some data about it, although we don't know exactly what that data entails for each game.
He even provides an accuracy rating for each game, so I would say the research is pretty good. Perhaps not good enough for the subscriber numbers to be useful, but probably good enough for the market percentage to have the right order.
Except for people who aren't sure if they are quitting or not, and can be in this state for months on end, waiting for a reason to play again. But I think you're correct as to why Guild Wars isn't on there. As to how he gets these numbers, I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate, and use a lot of statistics to come up with the results, but they are probably pretty close. You can also check his faq for answers to some of your questions:
http://www.mmogchart.com/faq/ He mentions that he wont list a game without good data, so what's on there at least has some data about it, although we don't know exactly what that data entails for each game. He even provides an accuracy rating for each game, so I would say the research is pretty good. Perhaps not good enough for the subscriber numbers to be useful, but probably good enough for the market percentage to have the right order.
Let me say this again...there is no research. He uses publicly released numbers, if they're there, just like we all read here...and guesses. He is a guy who didn't even get a college degree, has never worked on an MMO or even in the field short of investing money in WWIIOL, and is simply an MMO fan (and prolific message board poster), who happens to have excel, a domain name, and time on his hands. His last actual "experience" in the MMO industry was running a TinyMUD...
p.s. Just so we're clear, his LinkedIn profile actually lists "Assistant Manager TRAINEE" at a freaking COMIC BOOK STORE.
One more little tidbit...NPD just announced they were doing a subcriber number report for MMOs the other day. It's based on nothing more than internet polls and surveys.
And it's so much more credible than this guy, they're charging thirty five thousand dollars a year for their information...and this is free.
Here, unfortunately I don't have excel loaded up or space for it on my own domain name...but let me do some in depth calculations, run some algorithms, speak to several anonymous sources, and then make an educated guess...
Lol at WoW. I would like to see this chart a few months after the new expansion comes out.
Likely 75% WoW by then, you mean? ;-)
While I wouldn't trust those numbers blindly, unless people point out more correct ones or provide sound reasoning on why particular number are incorrect, I think they're good enough. Some will of course just refuse to believe that the game(s) they hate/like are actually that popular or not, kind'a like the "WoW is dying" crowd.
I really hope we can get at least a few more subscription games (not micro-payment ones) above the 500k line this year though.
One more little tidbit...NPD just announced they were doing a subcriber number report for MMOs the other day. It's based on nothing more than internet polls and surveys.
And it's so much more credible than this guy, they're charging thirty five thousand dollars a year for their information...and this is free.
You distrust the information simply because it's provided for free? :-p
It'll be interesting seeing their data though. I'm sure it'll leak somehow, and then we can see how they match up with these charts. I'd like to see people post if they turn out to give pretty much the same numbers...
Good enough for giving a rough overview of the spread of MMO players, whether subscriber or micro-payment based. I'd love to see numbers for e.g. Guild Wars too though.
Honestly, you sound like you're trying to promote NPD. Unless you can actually dispute the numbers in any way but accuse them of being incorrect because they're free and because you think so, I don't see what you're contributing here.
One more little tidbit...NPD just announced they were doing a subcriber number report for MMOs the other day. It's based on nothing more than internet polls and surveys.
And it's so much more credible than this guy, they're charging thirty five thousand dollars a year for their information...and this is free.
You distrust the information simply because it's provided for free? :-p
It'll be interesting seeing their data though. I'm sure it'll leak somehow, and then we can see how they match up with these charts. I'd like to see people post if they turn out to give pretty much the same numbers...
Yes, I distrust "market research" that is given away for free when (IF IT'S REMOTELY SUBSTANTIATED) is worth quite a bit of money.
More importantly, I don't have much faith in either of these. NPD's "3 million people" that they're surveying aren't even MMO players...they're just consumers that are filling out online surveys to get a free ipod, and now there are MMO questions in the mix.
Good enough for giving a rough overview of the spread of MMO players, whether subscriber or micro-payment based. I'd love to see numbers for e.g. Guild Wars too though.
Honestly, you sound like you're trying to promote NPD. Unless you can actually dispute the numbers in any way but accuse them of being incorrect because they're free and because you think so, I don't see what you're contributing here.
I'm disputing the numbers, because by his own admission most of them are simply guesses. Guesses from a guy without a college degree, with no MMO experience, and not remotely qualified to do market research or statsitical analysis. A guy who was a manager trainee at a comic book store a couple years ago is posting his guesses of game populations on a spreadsheet and people are treating it like it has some sort of basis in fact.
I think it's amazing that anyone gives this site any credibility...at all.
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion +plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO . Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
The NPD research I would trust a tad more because they'll be able to back the data up they have gotten and have a consistent work method to get it.
I don't know if it will be accurate though. If they do online polls, hm, there's a part of MMO players that doesn't visit forums at all because they're playing MMO.
This chart (MMOGChart) however, is silly, because it has no consistent polling method, we get to see 0 evidence of how he got the data. How am I supposed to trust anything this person says?
I'm disputing the numbers, because by his own admission most of them are simply guesses. Guesses from a guy without a college degree, with no MMO experience, and not remotely qualified to do market research or statsitical analysis. A guy who was a manager trainee at a comic book store a couple years ago is posting his guesses of game populations on a spreadsheet and people are treating it like it has some sort of basis in fact.
I had a look around the site and couldn't find this admission you speak of. A link would be appreciated. I did see this in his FAQ though: "Educated Guesses - Very rarely, a number will appear on the chat that’s non-sourced and simply my educated guess based on known information."
But of course, as someone without a college degree and who has worked at a comic store can't possibly work with numbers and analysis, the FAQ can't be trusted...
I'd still like to see you dispute the actual numbers - which I already said I too don't take as pure facts - and counter them with better data without suggesting I fork out my salary. I'll try remember to check back after the UEFA cup game on the telly, but now I need to go buy beer and snacks.
I am sort of curious why Vicenz is getting so worked up.
I have to agree that unless the guy is going to take the time to subscribe to all these games, go around and take population counts, his numbers are mostly conjecture and educated guesses.
Unlike Vicenz , though, I don't think you need a masters in statistics to do that.
Also, didn't thiis guy turn the website over to someone else a year ago?
I'm disputing the numbers, because by his own admission most of them are simply guesses. Guesses from a guy without a college degree, with no MMO experience, and not remotely qualified to do market research or statsitical analysis. A guy who was a manager trainee at a comic book store a couple years ago is posting his guesses of game populations on a spreadsheet and people are treating it like it has some sort of basis in fact.
I had a look around the site and couldn't find this admission you speak of. A link would be appreciated. I did see this in his FAQ though: "Educated Guesses - Very rarely, a number will appear on the chat that’s non-sourced and simply my educated guess based on known information."
But of course, as someone without a college degree and who has worked at a comic store can't possibly work with numbers and analysis, the FAQ can't be trusted...
I'd still like to see you dispute the actual numbers - which I already said I too don't take as pure facts - and counter them with better data without suggesting I fork out my salary. I'll try remember to check back after the UEFA cup game on the telly, but now I need to go buy beer and snacks.
I don't need to dispute them, the only ones that have any factual basis are ones that are publicly released and we all discuss on this site. The rest are simply made up. He has no experience or qualifications to make "EDUCATED" guesses that you and I don't have. So instead of believing his pie charts, just make up your own...it has just as much foundation.
Official Corporate Data, Corporate Press Releases, Corporate Documents, News Articles, and Public Comments...those are available to everyone and are already talked about every time they come out right here on this site.
That leaves "Anonymous Sources" and "Educated Guesses".
So again, apart from the numbers we all know already...the rest are just made up.
Again, your own guesses of game populations prior to this "BIG RELEASE" were just as accurate as this guy's.
p.s. LOL...I don't know grim, I have just gotten tired of hearing people quote this thing like the MMO bible every time there's an argument about who's "MMO IS WINNING" over the last couple years
Except for people who aren't sure if they are quitting or not, and can be in this state for months on end, waiting for a reason to play again. But I think you're correct as to why Guild Wars isn't on there. As to how he gets these numbers, I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate, and use a lot of statistics to come up with the results, but they are probably pretty close. You can also check his faq for answers to some of your questions:
http://www.mmogchart.com/faq/ He mentions that he wont list a game without good data, so what's on there at least has some data about it, although we don't know exactly what that data entails for each game. He even provides an accuracy rating for each game, so I would say the research is pretty good. Perhaps not good enough for the subscriber numbers to be useful, but probably good enough for the market percentage to have the right order.
Let me say this again...there is no research. He uses publicly released numbers, if they're there, just like we all read here...and guesses. He is a guy who didn't even get a college degree, has never worked on an MMO or even in the field short of investing money in WWIIOL, and is simply an MMO fan (and prolific message board poster), who happens to have excel, a domain name, and time on his hands. His last actual "experience" in the MMO industry was running a TinyMUD...
p.s. Just so we're clear, his LinkedIn profile actually lists "Assistant Manager TRAINEE" at a freaking COMIC BOOK STORE.
Actually looking up publicly released numbersis research. It seems as if you really don't like this guy or something? You keep mentioning that he has no college degree, as if that should matter. Einstein dropped out of school. Now I'm not saying this guy is a genius because I don't know, but a lack of a college degree doesn't equate to being inept at the task. Also, if i were rich and i loved comic books i'd probably have a part time job at a comic book store.
Now i'm not saying you're wrong. Actually I think you're right in that the chart isn't very reliable. He even states himself in one of the links posted that his numbers may be off my 10% or more. I just think that some of the points you bring up don't really relate to the argument. Dissing someone's character or data based on college education is a fallacy and doesn't make for a good argument, just as the inverse, a commercial saying 4 out of 5 doctors agree, doesn't necessarily mean one medicine is better then the next.
I find it interesting that LOTRO has the exact same game mechanics as WoW and plays just the same, and yet Eve online has a bigger population than it.
Pretty much because its so much like WoW, yet WoW is bigger and better in pretty much everyway.Once you get past the fact it's Middle Earth and see all the places from the book and movies, then it really starts to feel like a poorer cousin of WoW.
Lets see: Wow has
More variety in classes (as LOTR is limited by IP)
More variety in locations (as LOTR is limited by IP)
More varirty in mobs (as in LOTR you kill the same bears/wovles/goblins etc etc)
More varity in dungeons
More varity in loot
More varity in gameplay (having a more advanced and interesting PvP system).....
If Turbine had gone for the more Middle Earth:Online format...and made it less like WoW...it would have been better for them.
I just got finished playing the 7day trial for LoTRO and the whole time I felt like I was playing WoW... and I never liked WoW(except for the battlegrounds, they were a blast) =/ I wish they had made it less like WoW, the story in it is very interesting with the main questline. That and the music system in it made me want to subscribe, but like you said, everything else in it was like WoWlite
Comments
Except for people who aren't sure if they are quitting or not, and can be in this state for months on end, waiting for a reason to play again. But I think you're correct as to why Guild Wars isn't on there. As to how he gets these numbers, I'm sure they aren't 100% accurate, and use a lot of statistics to come up with the results, but they are probably pretty close.
You can also check his faq for answers to some of your questions:
http://www.mmogchart.com/faq/
He mentions that he wont list a game without good data, so what's on there at least has some data about it, although we don't know exactly what that data entails for each game.
He even provides an accuracy rating for each game, so I would say the research is pretty good. Perhaps not good enough for the subscriber numbers to be useful, but probably good enough for the market percentage to have the right order.
Let me say this again...there is no research. He uses publicly released numbers, if they're there, just like we all read here...and guesses. He is a guy who didn't even get a college degree, has never worked on an MMO or even in the field short of investing money in WWIIOL, and is simply an MMO fan (and prolific message board poster), who happens to have excel, a domain name, and time on his hands. His last actual "experience" in the MMO industry was running a TinyMUD...
p.s. Just so we're clear, his LinkedIn profile actually lists "Assistant Manager TRAINEE" at a freaking COMIC BOOK STORE.
One more little tidbit...NPD just announced they were doing a subcriber number report for MMOs the other day. It's based on nothing more than internet polls and surveys.
And it's so much more credible than this guy, they're charging thirty five thousand dollars a year for their information...and this is free.
www.mmogchart.com/analysis-and-conclusions/
EQ2 fan sites
This chart is sort of silly. Most big games aren't updated at all since 2007 or 2006.
WoW is updated, ok but blizzard gave that number.
The rest are guesses apparently because he doesn't give official number / date but the ones we already know.
So a lot of guesses and a lot of unupdated games. I don't even see guild wars in the chart.
1. Why isn’t <MMOG_NAME> listed?
b) The game in question is free and/or doesn’t charge a regular monthly fee.
EQ2 fan sites
1. Why isn’t <MMOG_NAME> listed?
b) The game in question is free and/or doesn’t charge a regular monthly fee.
LOL, although really, that's kind of B.S. because he could guess for a free game as well as he guesses for a paid game.
1. Why isn’t <MMOG_NAME> listed?
b) The game in question is free and/or doesn’t charge a regular monthly fee.
Dofus is free too and is in the chart. So your explanation doesn't make sense.
It's stupid chart. All update of games have no record at all from where he got the data. He could have made them all up and noone would know.
Here, unfortunately I don't have excel loaded up or space for it on my own domain name...but let me do some in depth calculations, run some algorithms, speak to several anonymous sources, and then make an educated guess...
Guild Wars currently has 891,765 subscribers.
You mean Runescape I think.
1. Why isn’t <MMOG_NAME> listed?
b) The game in question is free and/or doesn’t charge a regular monthly fee.
Dofus is free too and is in the chart. So your explanation doesn't make sense.
It's stupid chart. All update of games have no record at all from where he got the data. He could have made them all up and noone would know.
Weird, I read this and though of jessops answer in a few good men
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Likely 75% WoW by then, you mean? ;-)While I wouldn't trust those numbers blindly, unless people point out more correct ones or provide sound reasoning on why particular number are incorrect, I think they're good enough. Some will of course just refuse to believe that the game(s) they hate/like are actually that popular or not, kind'a like the "WoW is dying" crowd.
I really hope we can get at least a few more subscription games (not micro-payment ones) above the 500k line this year though.
Dofus has some free content but
most of Dofus has a monthly subscriber fee
wiki.tentonhammer.com/index.php
EQ2 fan sites
This is the part that kills me...
good enough for what exactly???
It'll be interesting seeing their data though. I'm sure it'll leak somehow, and then we can see how they match up with these charts. I'd like to see people post if they turn out to give pretty much the same numbers...
This is the part that kills me...
good enough for what exactly???
Good enough for giving a rough overview of the spread of MMO players, whether subscriber or micro-payment based. I'd love to see numbers for e.g. Guild Wars too though.Honestly, you sound like you're trying to promote NPD. Unless you can actually dispute the numbers in any way but accuse them of being incorrect because they're free and because you think so, I don't see what you're contributing here.
It'll be interesting seeing their data though. I'm sure it'll leak somehow, and then we can see how they match up with these charts. I'd like to see people post if they turn out to give pretty much the same numbers...
Yes, I distrust "market research" that is given away for free when (IF IT'S REMOTELY SUBSTANTIATED) is worth quite a bit of money.
More importantly, I don't have much faith in either of these. NPD's "3 million people" that they're surveying aren't even MMO players...they're just consumers that are filling out online surveys to get a free ipod, and now there are MMO questions in the mix.
Honestly, you sound like you're trying to promote NPD. Unless you can actually dispute the numbers in any way but accuse them of being incorrect because they're free and because you think so, I don't see what you're contributing here.
I'm disputing the numbers, because by his own admission most of them are simply guesses. Guesses from a guy without a college degree, with no MMO experience, and not remotely qualified to do market research or statsitical analysis. A guy who was a manager trainee at a comic book store a couple years ago is posting his guesses of game populations on a spreadsheet and people are treating it like it has some sort of basis in fact.
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion
+plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO
.
Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
The NPD research I would trust a tad more because they'll be able to back the data up they have gotten and have a consistent work method to get it.
I don't know if it will be accurate though. If they do online polls, hm, there's a part of MMO players that doesn't visit forums at all because they're playing MMO.
This chart (MMOGChart) however, is silly, because it has no consistent polling method, we get to see 0 evidence of how he got the data. How am I supposed to trust anything this person says?
But of course, as someone without a college degree and who has worked at a comic store can't possibly work with numbers and analysis, the FAQ can't be trusted...
I'd still like to see you dispute the actual numbers - which I already said I too don't take as pure facts - and counter them with better data without suggesting I fork out my salary. I'll try remember to check back after the UEFA cup game on the telly, but now I need to go buy beer and snacks.
I am sort of curious why Vicenz is getting so worked up.
I have to agree that unless the guy is going to take the time to subscribe to all these games, go around and take population counts, his numbers are mostly conjecture and educated guesses.
Unlike Vicenz , though, I don't think you need a masters in statistics to do that.
Also, didn't thiis guy turn the website over to someone else a year ago?
I had a look around the site and couldn't find this admission you speak of. A link would be appreciated. I did see this in his FAQ though: "Educated Guesses - Very rarely, a number will appear on the chat that’s non-sourced and simply my educated guess based on known information."But of course, as someone without a college degree and who has worked at a comic store can't possibly work with numbers and analysis, the FAQ can't be trusted...
I'd still like to see you dispute the actual numbers - which I already said I too don't take as pure facts - and counter them with better data without suggesting I fork out my salary. I'll try remember to check back after the UEFA cup game on the telly, but now I need to go buy beer and snacks.
I don't need to dispute them, the only ones that have any factual basis are ones that are publicly released and we all discuss on this site. The rest are simply made up. He has no experience or qualifications to make "EDUCATED" guesses that you and I don't have. So instead of believing his pie charts, just make up your own...it has just as much foundation.
Official Corporate Data, Corporate Press Releases, Corporate Documents, News Articles, and Public Comments...those are available to everyone and are already talked about every time they come out right here on this site.
That leaves "Anonymous Sources" and "Educated Guesses".
So again, apart from the numbers we all know already...the rest are just made up.
Again, your own guesses of game populations prior to this "BIG RELEASE" were just as accurate as this guy's.
p.s. LOL...I don't know grim, I have just gotten tired of hearing people quote this thing like the MMO bible every time there's an argument about who's "MMO IS WINNING" over the last couple years
Let me say this again...there is no research. He uses publicly released numbers, if they're there, just like we all read here...and guesses. He is a guy who didn't even get a college degree, has never worked on an MMO or even in the field short of investing money in WWIIOL, and is simply an MMO fan (and prolific message board poster), who happens to have excel, a domain name, and time on his hands. His last actual "experience" in the MMO industry was running a TinyMUD...
p.s. Just so we're clear, his LinkedIn profile actually lists "Assistant Manager TRAINEE" at a freaking COMIC BOOK STORE.
Actually looking up publicly released numbers is research. It seems as if you really don't like this guy or something? You keep mentioning that he has no college degree, as if that should matter. Einstein dropped out of school. Now I'm not saying this guy is a genius because I don't know, but a lack of a college degree doesn't equate to being inept at the task. Also, if i were rich and i loved comic books i'd probably have a part time job at a comic book store.
Now i'm not saying you're wrong. Actually I think you're right in that the chart isn't very reliable. He even states himself in one of the links posted that his numbers may be off my 10% or more. I just think that some of the points you bring up don't really relate to the argument. Dissing someone's character or data based on college education is a fallacy and doesn't make for a good argument, just as the inverse, a commercial saying 4 out of 5 doctors agree, doesn't necessarily mean one medicine is better then the next.
Pretty much because its so much like WoW, yet WoW is bigger and better in pretty much everyway.Once you get past the fact it's Middle Earth and see all the places from the book and movies, then it really starts to feel like a poorer cousin of WoW.Lets see: Wow has
More variety in classes (as LOTR is limited by IP)
More variety in locations (as LOTR is limited by IP)
More varirty in mobs (as in LOTR you kill the same bears/wovles/goblins etc etc)
More varity in dungeons
More varity in loot
More varity in gameplay (having a more advanced and interesting PvP system).....
If Turbine had gone for the more Middle Earth:Online format...and made it less like WoW...it would have been better for them.
I just got finished playing the 7day trial for LoTRO and the whole time I felt like I was playing WoW... and I never liked WoW(except for the battlegrounds, they were a blast) =/ I wish they had made it less like WoW, the story in it is very interesting with the main questline. That and the music system in it made me want to subscribe, but like you said, everything else in it was like WoWlite