Good enough for giving a rough overview of the spread of MMO players, whether subscriber or micro-payment based. I'd love to see numbers for e.g. Guild Wars too though.
As of December 2007, Guild Wars had 4,878,000 activated accounts to date. How many of those are actually active. though, NCSoft doesn't report. In any case, I don't consider games like Guild Wars or Hellgate: London (which has a subscription fee), to be MMOGs. They don't have a persistant state world, and they generally don't have hundreds or thousands of people in one at once; just lots of instances. It's a subtle point, though. They are certainly important to the market but I don't think they are directly part of the market.
No, we just recognize a turd when we see one, and MMOGchart is one. Again, the only time that site is correct is when it has info already published in other public places. If the numbers aren't posted officially, the dude has no clue and puts whatever number he thinks is right at that moment. I'd get better info from a broken Magic 8 Ball.
This is a lie. Some numbers I get are official, straight from the company, but aren't posted officially in a press release or on a website anywhere. Other times, they come from inside sources that know the numbers but wish their identities to remain concealed; every reporter deals with this kind of information every day. And sometimes, while a number isn't given exactly, it can be inferred from other public statements; e.g. "we have more than X game but less than Y game and we sold Z boxes."
I don't make up numbers and put whatever I think is right at the moment. If I did, I'd put out an update for every MMOG every month and charge $25,000 for it.
I thought Eve would have had a bigger Subscription base...
You don't need a chart to tell you how many subscribers EVE has. They announced in January they hit 220,000.
Google works as well as this guy's website.
Google won't give you a chart show the game relative to other subscription MMOGs, nor will it give you the precise number of 224,932. CCP provides that, btw.
For most of the numbers, though, yes you can google them to find the source. If you can't find it, it was probably from an inside source or a document google doesn't index (newspaper articles, SEC documents, etc.)
SirBruce, I think you should calm down. These types of arguments happen quite often in MMORPG.com - I'm sure you know it's not good for industry members to get caught up in them.
Unlike you, I don't dare disclose all of my gathered information and generated data - I have less credibility, but will probably also see a lot of criticism to my work, then get fired by my MMO company!
First off, Sir Bruce's numbers are as accurate as you can be and relative to each other, so if one title is off a bit, it is still accurate in relation to other titles.
EvE Online has good steady growth and now has more subscribers than any single SOE game. That is amazing and really shows how much SOE sucks at making MMOGs.
SirBruce, I think you should calm down. These types of arguments happen quite often in MMORPG.com - I'm sure you know it's not good for industry members to get caught up in them. Unlike you, I don't dare disclose all of my gathered information and generated data - I have less credibility, but will probably also see a lot of criticism to my work, then get fired by my MMO company!
Yeah I didn't realize I had posted like 7 times in a row until I got to the end. :P
Of course, I don't disclose information given to me in confidence. Only data that sources want me to re-report (but remain anonymous). I don't want any employee to get fired over telling me something they shouldn't. However, I should note that California has protection laws for journalists and bloggers so I can't be forced to reveal your identity if you do give me inside numbers for your MMO company.
Bruce
PS - Use gmail or an anonymous email, though, so it can't be traced.
I find it interesting that LOTRO has the exact same game mechanics as WoW and plays just the same, and yet Eve online has a bigger population than it.
eve is a different game.. why play a game w/ the same mechanics as wow .. just play wow instead.. ppl who like the mechanics play wow.. people who dont play something else.. like eve
Of course, I don't disclose information given to me in confidence. Only data that sources want me to re-report (but remain anonymous). I don't want any employee to get fired over telling me something they shouldn't. However, I should note that California has protection laws for journalists and bloggers so I can't be forced to reveal your identity if you do give me inside numbers for your MMO company. Bruce PS - Use gmail or an anonymous email, though, so it can't be traced.
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
Of course, I don't disclose information given to me in confidence. Only data that sources want me to re-report (but remain anonymous). I don't want any employee to get fired over telling me something they shouldn't. However, I should note that California has protection laws for journalists and bloggers so I can't be forced to reveal your identity if you do give me inside numbers for your MMO company. Bruce PS - Use gmail or an anonymous email, though, so it can't be traced.
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
In the indusrty I work in, I have physically held the subscriber list of two MMOs in my hand. One was even stupid enough to include account name and email addresses once.
Each time the numbers I saw were very close to what Sir Bruce listed so I have faith in some of those numbers and can very easily see where others can and do send them in.
I'm just curious Vincenz, where you get this proof that his numbers are made up?
Props to Bruce for the hard work of compilation of the data. But I have one question: what sort of sociological influences are they in regards to the significant dominance of the fantasy genre over the MMO market?
As much as I know that many folks have played some DND game either PNP or PC based, there's not enough people in the entire world to reflect the genre saturation that is evident to the market. So, I have to wonder if half of this has to do with the standard religious affiliation(s) of the average person (either the WoW market share or other MMO's market share being polled here) have a significance (statistical) in regards to this as I suspect (among other things).
Even if this guy did fabricate some numbers or was a little inaccurate, the true and accurate chart wouldn't look much different. Even if LoTRO had another 100,000 subs, it's piece of the pie wouldn't increase much. Approximately 16 million people play MMO's and WoW owns 10 million of them. Everything else is scraps, so go ahead and fight about them.
The fact is WoW is the absolute Juggernaut of MMO's. Regardless of how many WoW haters this community has, WoW is the most polished and well functioning MMO out there and can run on any machine made within the last 20 years. For every person that hates it, there are a thousand who love it.
I'm not saying WoW doesn't deserve some of it's criticism. But trying to refute the fact that it is the King of MMO's (population wise) is insane.
I don't understand the ridiculous amount of hate some of you are spewing. If you don't place any value in the data, or hell, eve if you DESPISE it, just don't go to the site or participate in any discussion about it. Simple fix to a nonexistent problem.
Personally, I've always found mmogchart very interesting and informative, even with the amount of inaccuracy present. I appreciate all of the work that Bruce has done over the years.
Some of you guys are in serious denial. Even if this guy did fabricate some numbers or was a little inaccurate, the true and accurate chart wouldn't look much different. Even if LoTRO had another 100,000 subs, it's piece of the pie wouldn't increase much. Approximately 16 million people play MMO's and WoW owns 10 million of them. Everything else is scraps, so go ahead and fight about them. The fact is WoW is the absolute Juggernaut of MMO's. Regardless of how many WoW haters this community has, WoW is the most polished and well functioning MMO out there and can run on any machine made within the last 20 years. For every person that hates it, there are a thousand who love it. I'm not saying WoW doesn't deserve some of it's criticism. But trying to refute the fact that it is the King of MMO's (population wise) is insane.
While I agree that the subscription MMO market is at about 16 million or so. I would actually say that, if anything, WOW has been a God-send to the market because it expanded the MMO customer base (by a magnitude of millions, across the globe). Meaning: Before WOW, there were not this many people playing MMOs. After WOW, whether they are still playing the title or not, the market customer base has exploded in numbers.
So, if anything, everybody should be thankful that WOW came along - You don't have to like the gameplay, or graphics, or pay them a monthly subscription fee (I believe they have plenty of that, anyway); you just have to appreciate what the title has done for the industry. The industry is more popular today than it ever has been in the past. Investors are more likely to put dollars into the industry because they have a clear example of a smashing success. Players get higher quality games because competition is building. All-in-all, WOW coming to the MMO industry has been the best thing in a very long time.
Of course, I don't disclose information given to me in confidence. Only data that sources want me to re-report (but remain anonymous). I don't want any employee to get fired over telling me something they shouldn't. However, I should note that California has protection laws for journalists and bloggers so I can't be forced to reveal your identity if you do give me inside numbers for your MMO company. Bruce PS - Use gmail or an anonymous email, though, so it can't be traced.
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
Everytime theres a post about mmogcharts you always run in there and spam it. At least he's trying to do something constructive and produce charts which is much better then some annonymous guy that complains about it in every other thread. You must work for some site that no one visits surely
I'm just curious Vincenz, where you get this proof that his numbers are made up?
Because he states himself that if the numbers aren't publicly released (like the majority of MMOs) he simply makes an "estimated guess" or talks to secret sources...OOOOOO!...to come up with them.
LOTRO, for example, he took a statement made by Turbine that it was the "second largest MMO produced in North America" and said "HEY!...1.2 MILLION SUBS!"
Because he states himself that if the numbers aren't publicly released (like the majority of MMOs) he simply makes an "estimated guess" or talks to secret sources...OOOOOO!...to come up with them. LOTRO, for example, he took a statement made by Turbine that it was the "second largest MMO produced in North America" and said "HEY!...1.2 MILLION SUBS!"
Lol someone here really has a attitude problem. Everyone knows a lot of those numbers ate "best guess" estimates. Nether less the numbers given for the games that don't publicly or officially give out sub numbers do look pretty close to what there is. And in the end this method is a lot more accurate, i feel than just throwing around 'Surveys' to random people
What i don't understand is why are you Trolling this topic?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I'm just curious Vincenz, where you get this proof that his numbers are made up?
Because he states himself that if the numbers aren't publicly released (like the majority of MMOs) he simply makes an "estimated guess" or talks to secret sources...OOOOOO!...to come up with them.
LOTRO, for example, he took a statement made by Turbine that it was the "second largest MMO produced in North America" and said "HEY!...1.2 MILLION SUBS!"
Are you by chance confusing Sir Bruces' site with MMOGDATA that tried to continue his work over the last year and a half or so? Perhaps you are the one who has facts mistaken? I don't recall mmogchart.com ever updating lord of the rings online with 1.2million subs let alone updating anything until just last week and the number was 200k. There are two sites run by two different people. One has contacts and experience in the industry while the other was just another person (honestly I don't know their credentials so can't say one way or another).
Beyond that, given your credentials and the 'proof' you allude to and compared to sir bruces work I find his statements much more plausable than your own. I've seen you matter of factly state his sites works was bogus a few times and was just curious if you had anything to back that up other than your personal opinion.
It's a simple matter of treating this rough quantitative analysis as a 2nd or 3rd hand information from what the industry side can accommodate us (if they ever for real all these time anyway..). To see if we can arrive to some logically derived middle grounds for acceptable figures OR if true industry insiders may pop up to counter with definitive datas. I certainly don't see the necessity (apparently we do have substantially well informed 'contrarian' analysts here as well...to my amusement) of some of us having their best of times trying to put the efforts down?
It's a kind of thing that we need to collectively dissect in a positive manner and not be taken at face value.
If you nay sayers would actually read the FAQ, he explains all his sources, and admits he may not always be right. He also provides accuracy ratings for the data he's aquired. I think it's a pretty darn good job.
Comments
This is the part that kills me...
good enough for what exactly???
Good enough for giving a rough overview of the spread of MMO players, whether subscriber or micro-payment based. I'd love to see numbers for e.g. Guild Wars too though.As of December 2007, Guild Wars had 4,878,000 activated accounts to date. How many of those are actually active. though, NCSoft doesn't report. In any case, I don't consider games like Guild Wars or Hellgate: London (which has a subscription fee), to be MMOGs. They don't have a persistant state world, and they generally don't have hundreds or thousands of people in one at once; just lots of instances. It's a subtle point, though. They are certainly important to the market but I don't think they are directly part of the market.
Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
This is a lie. By my own admission, the vast majority of numbers I report are not guesses.
http://www.mmogchart.com/faq/
Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
This is a lie. Some numbers I get are official, straight from the company, but aren't posted officially in a press release or on a website anywhere. Other times, they come from inside sources that know the numbers but wish their identities to remain concealed; every reporter deals with this kind of information every day. And sometimes, while a number isn't given exactly, it can be inferred from other public statements; e.g. "we have more than X game but less than Y game and we sold Z boxes."
I don't make up numbers and put whatever I think is right at the moment. If I did, I'd put out an update for every MMOG every month and charge $25,000 for it.
Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
You don't need a chart to tell you how many subscribers EVE has. They announced in January they hit 220,000.
Google works as well as this guy's website.
Google won't give you a chart show the game relative to other subscription MMOGs, nor will it give you the precise number of 224,932. CCP provides that, btw.
For most of the numbers, though, yes you can google them to find the source. If you can't find it, it was probably from an inside source or a document google doesn't index (newspaper articles, SEC documents, etc.)
Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
SirBruce, I think you should calm down. These types of arguments happen quite often in MMORPG.com - I'm sure you know it's not good for industry members to get caught up in them.
Unlike you, I don't dare disclose all of my gathered information and generated data - I have less credibility, but will probably also see a lot of criticism to my work, then get fired by my MMO company!
First off, Sir Bruce's numbers are as accurate as you can be and relative to each other, so if one title is off a bit, it is still accurate in relation to other titles.
EvE Online has good steady growth and now has more subscribers than any single SOE game. That is amazing and really shows how much SOE sucks at making MMOGs.
Yeah I didn't realize I had posted like 7 times in a row until I got to the end. :P
Of course, I don't disclose information given to me in confidence. Only data that sources want me to re-report (but remain anonymous). I don't want any employee to get fired over telling me something they shouldn't.
However, I should note that California has protection laws for journalists and bloggers so I can't be forced to reveal your identity if you do give me inside numbers for your MMO company. 
Bruce
PS - Use gmail or an anonymous email, though, so it can't be traced.
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
i dont like either of the game soooo
Remember Old School Ultima Online
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer
http://www.mmogchart.com
Depressing ratios, to be sure. I can only hope that it is a phase.
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
In the indusrty I work in, I have physically held the subscriber list of two MMOs in my hand. One was even stupid enough to include account name and email addresses once.Each time the numbers I saw were very close to what Sir Bruce listed so I have faith in some of those numbers and can very easily see where others can and do send them in.
I'm just curious Vincenz, where you get this proof that his numbers are made up?
Props to Bruce for the hard work of compilation of the data. But I have one question: what sort of sociological influences are they in regards to the significant dominance of the fantasy genre over the MMO market?
As much as I know that many folks have played some DND game either PNP or PC based, there's not enough people in the entire world to reflect the genre saturation that is evident to the market. So, I have to wonder if half of this has to do with the standard religious affiliation(s) of the average person (either the WoW market share or other MMO's market share being polled here) have a significance (statistical) in regards to this as I suspect (among other things).
-- Brede
Some of you guys are in serious denial.
Even if this guy did fabricate some numbers or was a little inaccurate, the true and accurate chart wouldn't look much different. Even if LoTRO had another 100,000 subs, it's piece of the pie wouldn't increase much. Approximately 16 million people play MMO's and WoW owns 10 million of them. Everything else is scraps, so go ahead and fight about them.
The fact is WoW is the absolute Juggernaut of MMO's. Regardless of how many WoW haters this community has, WoW is the most polished and well functioning MMO out there and can run on any machine made within the last 20 years. For every person that hates it, there are a thousand who love it.
I'm not saying WoW doesn't deserve some of it's criticism. But trying to refute the fact that it is the King of MMO's (population wise) is insane.
I don't understand the ridiculous amount of hate some of you are spewing. If you don't place any value in the data, or hell, eve if you DESPISE it, just don't go to the site or participate in any discussion about it. Simple fix to a nonexistent problem.
Personally, I've always found mmogchart very interesting and informative, even with the amount of inaccuracy present. I appreciate all of the work that Bruce has done over the years.
While I agree that the subscription MMO market is at about 16 million or so. I would actually say that, if anything, WOW has been a God-send to the market because it expanded the MMO customer base (by a magnitude of millions, across the globe). Meaning: Before WOW, there were not this many people playing MMOs. After WOW, whether they are still playing the title or not, the market customer base has exploded in numbers.
So, if anything, everybody should be thankful that WOW came along - You don't have to like the gameplay, or graphics, or pay them a monthly subscription fee (I believe they have plenty of that, anyway); you just have to appreciate what the title has done for the industry. The industry is more popular today than it ever has been in the past. Investors are more likely to put dollars into the industry because they have a clear example of a smashing success. Players get higher quality games because competition is building. All-in-all, WOW coming to the MMO industry has been the best thing in a very long time.
LOL! I think this pretty much says it all.
Good luck with your whole "darts at a dart board" method of calculating subscriber numbers there Bruce. Seems like you have a few people foolish enough to believe.
You make sure to keep those anonymous sources safe through g-mail there Woodward...or is it Bernstein.
Everytime theres a post about mmogcharts you always run in there and spam it. At least he's trying to do something constructive and produce charts which is much better then some annonymous guy that complains about it in every other thread. You must work for some site that no one visits surely
Because he states himself that if the numbers aren't publicly released (like the majority of MMOs) he simply makes an "estimated guess" or talks to secret sources...OOOOOO!...to come up with them.
LOTRO, for example, he took a statement made by Turbine that it was the "second largest MMO produced in North America" and said "HEY!...1.2 MILLION SUBS!"
What i don't understand is why are you Trolling this topic?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Because he states himself that if the numbers aren't publicly released (like the majority of MMOs) he simply makes an "estimated guess" or talks to secret sources...OOOOOO!...to come up with them.
LOTRO, for example, he took a statement made by Turbine that it was the "second largest MMO produced in North America" and said "HEY!...1.2 MILLION SUBS!"
Are you by chance confusing Sir Bruces' site with MMOGDATA that tried to continue his work over the last year and a half or so? Perhaps you are the one who has facts mistaken? I don't recall mmogchart.com ever updating lord of the rings online with 1.2million subs let alone updating anything until just last week and the number was 200k. There are two sites run by two different people. One has contacts and experience in the industry while the other was just another person (honestly I don't know their credentials so can't say one way or another).Beyond that, given your credentials and the 'proof' you allude to and compared to sir bruces work I find his statements much more plausable than your own. I've seen you matter of factly state his sites works was bogus a few times and was just curious if you had anything to back that up other than your personal opinion.
Wow, that was a lot of SirBrucing, even for SirBruce. I don't think he's broken the record, thought, which I 'm sure he holds himself.
(err... I didn't mean "holds himself" in the pervy way)
It's a simple matter of treating this rough quantitative analysis as a 2nd or 3rd hand information from what the industry side can accommodate us (if they ever for real all these time anyway..). To see if we can arrive to some logically derived middle grounds for acceptable figures OR if true industry insiders may pop up to counter with definitive datas. I certainly don't see the necessity (apparently we do have substantially well informed 'contrarian' analysts here as well...to my amusement) of some of us having their best of times trying to put the efforts down?
It's a kind of thing that we need to collectively dissect in a positive manner and not be taken at face value.
It's interesting to look at, but like some others I'm skeptical as well. I wish there was a way we could all know definitively.
If you nay sayers would actually read the FAQ, he explains all his sources, and admits he may not always be right. He also provides accuracy ratings for the data he's aquired. I think it's a pretty darn good job.
www.mmogchart.com/analysis-and-conclusions/
?