Having; at launch: - 1 permadeath server would be a good idea. - 1 lives per month server with no other death penalty*, also a good idea. - 1 FFA PvP server, also a good idea. - 1 PvE-grouping server (all loot placed on 1 merchant for now, later more adjustements if popular enought), also a good idea. - 1 casual server (can't play more than 3 hours per week) where everything is earned FAST (log in, your level 20...gain 1 level per kill up to 40...then still fast, should be hard to be max level in 3 weeks, but not impossible (9 hours LOL)), also a good idea. - Many other specific servers with their own systems...
See, the keys point here are: AT LAUNCH, AS MANY DIFFERENTS SETTING AS POSIIBLE (even if not working, advertise as such and then a note say that it is not working as intended for now, patching will solve it eventually)
See, PvE variations should be the most common, not the least. Most peoples play in PvE. Give players the choices. When new expansions are launched, try a few twists of existing setting...or new stuff althogeter.
Giving the choices to the players and then supporting these is what matters, maybe show the population on servers setting that are about to be squashed into oblivion if not more successfull...instead of light load, put a 214 players online and give a warning ahead of time that at this current course, this server would be closed in a month...or whatever...and if there is a character transfer option to some server, or not (obviously, a character on the casual server cannot be transferred anywhere short of the test server)
*: Would need to explain the death system in great lenght...can check my blog if you really want some info.
The reason they don't have so many different server types:
Each server required maintenance, power, administrative costs, etc.
They will not keep a server up an running if they don't have enough players on that server to justify the cost of keeping it running.
This is why we see games with lower populations consilidate and then remove low population servers.
Point is, NO MMO Developer has seen enough potential in keeping a perma-death server up and running to add one to their server scheme. They believe it wouldn't have enough players to make it financially viable to keep the server running.
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun. I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed. In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over. In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning. Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off! And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more. The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun. I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed. In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over. In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning. Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off! And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more. The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression.
Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
I actually liked the "generational" thing suggested by someone on this thread. I think that ideal really adds something to the genre, never you mind opening a door for perma-death that still allows progression. Ideally it would also open the game to more "sim" options as well...such as family building and such, but it would be touch and go trying to find a way to balance that into a "sandbox" style which also allowed for PvP.
I should probably thank you haters, before this whole mess started I would never have thought about things from this angle. It really opens lines of thought which are really interesting and could, one day, lead to something really great if a balance is struck.
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression.
Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
No, actually because it's fun...for some people. I choose to play perma-death style on at least one character, because it's a blast. Playing carefully and meaningfully, actually coming up with strategies for difficult encounters, and feeling your heart race because if you fail you actually lose something is fun for me and others.
The reason they don't have so many different server types: Each server required maintenance, power, administrative costs, etc. They will not keep a server up an running if they don't have enough players on that server to justify the cost of keeping it running. This is why we see games with lower populations consilidate and then remove low population servers. Point is, NO MMO Developer has seen enough potential in keeping a perma-death server up and running to add one to their server scheme. They believe it wouldn't have enough players to make it financially viable to keep the server running. And I agree.
Closing unpopular servers is definitely in the plans.
However, the choice is given to players. If you have 100k players, they deserve more then 1 or 2 setting rules...give them whatever # they deserve...then close those which are definitely not popular enought and try re-opening other completely differents which you think will please your players.
WoW would prolly have enought players on a permadeath server to justify it's remain open. And all players on every server would find that neat to see 1 more option, even if they would NEVER play there...the option is there...
This means more programmers and less designers...cause ultimately, the designers are the players, who support the design they prefer. Programmers are brilliant enought to propose various design ideas! A few designers present could say: yes we allow character transfer, or no we don't, in order to make sure the receiving server logic is not ruined (for example, no server would accept characters created on a casual server, it would be unfair for the receiving player-base).
Specific server rules is definitely the future, and the players just pick whichever they prefer. The nicest thing is, they don't have to work as such necessarily at the launch of the server. You are just honest with the players, say this is the intent direction of said server, that adjustments will be made/fixed based on popularity of servers. You may add that way something completely different, but for the moment been, it is just another core-rule server, with this intended direction (work easier when it concern endgame).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Permadeath seems like a good idea until that one guy/gal who spend their entire gaming time playing at odd hours, always tackling content way below their skill/level slowly leveling/gaining skills to maximum, then they start slaughtering every one and everything around them, no one ever get's to the level they are and permadeath becomes a super griefing tool.
Those who want Permadeath also always seem to want FFA PvP.
Why?
Becuase they will be the ones who find a "safe" way to rise to the maximum skill/level cap and then grief the living sh*t out of every one and everything they see to inflate their e-pen15.
They want to gank you, steal your stuff (even though it's worthless noob gear) and instead of continuing to beat you down (griefing) once you respawn, they just want to permanently kill you.
Shows that NOOB for not being L337 enough to "make the cut" in such a "hardcore" game.
Permadeath worked in Diablo2 so why shouldnt it work in another mmo? Granted D2 wasnt an mmo, but it was close. Some people want that challenge and not get spoonfeed and handheld though every ingame challenge, you know using their brain and actually form some kind of tactic. Not everyone like the extreme easyness of WoW either. I mean, you have to be a complete retard to not succeed in that game, and amazingly enough, I met some players like that when I still played WoW. And btw, its the only mmo I've met people like that, and I've played my share.
Hehe, on a sidenote I now know why WoW so popular. It brought the mmo game to the masses(used to be a thinking persons game), and as we all know, most people are stupid as hell.
Permadeath seems like a good idea until that one guy/gal who spend their entire gaming time playing at odd hours, always tackling content way below their skill/level slowly leveling/gaining skills to maximum, then they start slaughtering every one and everything around them, no one ever get's to the level they are and permadeath becomes a super griefing tool. Those who want Permadeath also always seem to want FFA PvP. Why? Becuase they will be the ones who find a "safe" way to rise to the maximum skill/level cap and then grief the living sh*t out of every one and everything they see to inflate their e-pen15. They want to gank you, steal your stuff (even though it's worthless noob gear) and instead of continuing to beat you down (griefing) once you respawn, they just want to permanently kill you. Shows that NOOB for not being L337 enough to "make the cut" in such a "hardcore" game. LOL Pathetic.
I would never play on a Permadeath server...or any PvP server for that matter. But, in a game as WoW...wouldn't it be nice that all these players play on the same server instead of yours? :P
And if there are 10k such players and they all play on the same server, who care what happen there? :P Not me. Not you. And you are happy on your server with peoples that think like you. I am happy on mine with peoples which think like me.
See, the guy you describe, I want him to play on ANOTHER server. Not mine. Even if he can't PK me, PvP me or grief me in anyway...he will tries to find such a way...but now...he has a server for him...he goes there...and see his brothers and sisters and they kill each other in that gankfest! :P
And the MMO devs are happy cashing all-in all our money even if they see that they need to hire 10 more programmers due to population increase and that soo many servers need rules adjustements. :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I would never play on a Permadeath server...or any PvP server for that matter. But, in a game as WoW...wouldn't it be nice that all these players play on the same server instead of yours? :P
And if there are 10k such players and they all play on the same server, who care what happen there? :P Not me. Not you. And you are happy on your server with peoples that think like you. I am happy on mine with peoples which think like me.
See, the guy you describe, I want him to play on ANOTHER server. Not mine. Even if he can't PK me, PvP me or grief me in anyway...he will tries to find such a way...but now...he has a server for him...he goes there...and see his brothers and sisters and they kill each other in that gankfest! :P
And the MMO devs are happy cashing all-in all our money even if they see that they need to hire 10 more programmers due to population increase and that soo many servers need rules adjustements. :P
You misunderstand me, I agree with you that offering more choice in server types is the way to go.
The more choices the better, let the sociopath pathetic ganker/griefer loses have their own server, but I'll be the one laughing when the server population is at 100 and they shut it down / switch it from perma-death to a standard server type.
Point is, in a game like WoW, with 10+million people you might be able to get enough population to have ONE perma-death server. Go ahead, I won't touch it.
Permadeath seems like a good idea until that one guy/gal who spend their entire gaming time playing at odd hours, always tackling content way below their skill/level slowly leveling/gaining skills to maximum, then they start slaughtering every one and everything around them, no one ever get's to the level they are and permadeath becomes a super griefing tool. Those who want Permadeath also always seem to want FFA PvP. Why? Becuase they will be the ones who find a "safe" way to rise to the maximum skill/level cap and then grief the living sh*t out of every one and everything they see to inflate their e-pen15. They want to gank you, steal your stuff (even though it's worthless noob gear) and instead of continuing to beat you down (griefing) once you respawn, they just want to permanently kill you. Shows that NOOB for not being L337 enough to "make the cut" in such a "hardcore" game. LOL Pathetic.
Pretty large generalization, since the most recent perma death post was about DDO and the many perma-death players and guilds...in a game without hardly any PVP, and most exclude PVP from the perma death ruleset because it's just for fun.
Originally posted by heerobya Permadeath seems like a good idea until that one guy/gal who spend their entire gaming time playing at odd hours, always tackling content way below their skill/level slowly leveling/gaining skills to maximum, then they start slaughtering every one and everything around them, no one ever get's to the level they are and permadeath becomes a super griefing tool. Those who want Permadeath also always seem to want FFA PvP. Why? Becuase they will be the ones who find a "safe" way to rise to the maximum skill/level cap and then grief the living sh*t out of every one and everything they see to inflate their e-pen15. They want to gank you, steal your stuff (even though it's worthless noob gear) and instead of continuing to beat you down (griefing) once you respawn, they just want to permanently kill you. Shows that NOOB for not being L337 enough to "make the cut" in such a "hardcore" game. LOL Pathetic.
Actually, the majority of the time, those that like permadeath tend to be the complete opposite of that. They tend to be more on the RP side than the OMFG EYE GANKED j00!! side of things. The sort you describe dwell far more in the pvp realm than anywhere else (yes I know, not ALL pvp people are like that).
The sort you describe would despise hardcore permadeath and the first time they lost their supa-L337 choon, they would quit hardcore and find their bullying fix elsewhere....
Pfft OP Permadeath worked in Diablo2 so why shouldnt it work in another mmo? Granted D2 wasnt an mmo, but it was close. Some people want that challenge and not get spoonfeed and handheld though every ingame challenge, you know using their brain and actually form some kind of tactic. Not everyone like the extreme easyness of WoW either. I mean, you have to be a complete retard to not succeed in that game, and amazingly enough, I met some players like that when I still played WoW. And btw, its the only mmo I've met people like that, and I've played my share. Hehe, on a sidenote I now know why WoW so popular. It brought the mmo game to the masses(used to be a thinking persons game), and as we all know, most people are stupid as hell.
yeah,you seem pretty stupid and elitist,im sure you fit in well there.
Why is everyone talking about a permadeath game? The OP is pissed because some players have chosen to up their game by deleting their characters once they get killed. There's no built-in game feature for this and no one is forced to play this way. Sure, it would be nice if there was a permadeath server or even just a way to flag your character for permadeath, but no one is saying that you should be forced to play this way. Permadeath is just a way that some veteran players add a dimension to their favorite game. The appropriate response to the OP is: "It's none of your damn business how Iplay mycharacters so piss off!" Simple no?
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun. I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed. In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over. In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning. Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off! And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more. The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
I don't know about ya'll, but I play MMOs for fun. I wouldn't find it fun to have to re-do months (or years) of content because I made one small mistake that got my character killed. In any game that is progression based, where you do something, complete that something, then move on to something else (i.e. 99% of games) you can't have perma-death. Most people get very, very tired of repeating the same content over and over and over. In the glory days of the Arcade, you had permadeath. You got as far as you could on your quarter then when you got the game over, that was it. You'd have to start back at the beginning. Then they added the "Continue?" option, put another quarter in, keep playing from where you left off! And you know what happened? People started playing a lot more, and they started paying a lot more. The removal of perma-death happened decades ago, and it's never coming back in a marketable product.
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression.
Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
Well, you can't really have an MMO without progression.
I would never play on a Permadeath server...or any PvP server for that matter. But, in a game as WoW...wouldn't it be nice that all these players play on the same server instead of yours? :P
And if there are 10k such players and they all play on the same server, who care what happen there? :P Not me. Not you. And you are happy on your server with peoples that think like you. I am happy on mine with peoples which think like me.
See, the guy you describe, I want him to play on ANOTHER server. Not mine. Even if he can't PK me, PvP me or grief me in anyway...he will tries to find such a way...but now...he has a server for him...he goes there...and see his brothers and sisters and they kill each other in that gankfest! :P
And the MMO devs are happy cashing all-in all our money even if they see that they need to hire 10 more programmers due to population increase and that soo many servers need rules adjustements. :P
You misunderstand me, I agree with you that offering more choice in server types is the way to go.
The more choices the better, let the sociopath pathetic ganker/griefer loses have their own server, but I'll be the one laughing when the server population is at 100 and they shut it down / switch it from perma-death to a standard server type.
Point is, in a game like WoW, with 10+million people you might be able to get enough population to have ONE perma-death server. Go ahead, I won't touch it.
Well said. I have no objection for developers to try it out as long as it is optional. I won't touch it but hey, if you can find enough people to support a server, more power to you.
Originally posted by ext1 Actually, the majority of the time, those that like permadeath tend to be the complete opposite of that. They tend to be more on the RP side than the OMFG EYE GANKED j00!! side of things. The sort you describe dwell far more in the pvp realm than anywhere else (yes I know, not ALL pvp people are like that). The sort you describe would despise hardcore permadeath and the first time they lost their supa-L337 choon, they would quit hardcore and find their bullying fix elsewhere....
Permadeath for the Role Playing side would indeed make sense.
But as someone talked about a DDO guild, permadeath is REALLY easy to Role Play...
Just delete your toon if you die. You don't need special servers or rule sets or anything.
If it's NOT about PvP then you aren't in competition with others, only the game itself. I imagine if you told a PvP Permadeath fan to delete their toon if they die in PvP, they'll say "but the other people on my server won't do that, so I'll never get ahead! Not unless everyone else deletes their toons too!"
Which boils down to the main point, they want to perma-PK others and force them to restart so they can get ahead, stroking their e-pen15. But ask them to permadeath themselves and they scream and cry NO!
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression. Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
Well, you can't really have an MMO without progression.
Pfft OP Permadeath worked in Diablo2 so why shouldnt it work in another mmo? Granted D2 wasnt an mmo, but it was close. Some people want that challenge and not get spoonfeed and handheld though every ingame challenge, you know using their brain and actually form some kind of tactic. Not everyone like the extreme easyness of WoW either. I mean, you have to be a complete retard to not succeed in that game, and amazingly enough, I met some players like that when I still played WoW. And btw, its the only mmo I've met people like that, and I've played my share. Hehe, on a sidenote I now know why WoW so popular. It brought the mmo game to the masses(used to be a thinking persons game), and as we all know, most people are stupid as hell.
yeah,you seem pretty stupid and elitist,im sure you fit in well there.
Whatever kind of insult you thought that would be to me, you missed it. Cant even take a joke, sheesh...
Anyway, the point of permadeath is to make the game more of a challenge and add some more to the game that isnt there from before.
Forget pvp, pvp has nothing to do with permadeath at all. The gank kiddies wont play permadeath anyway, cause if they die, and they will eventually, they will lose their little eleet-toon and all their so-called work on it would go to waste. Then they will start to whine to the devs via forums and emails and so on...you people know the drill...
I support permadeath in a controlled environment, with strict rules to what can be done, or not, especially concerning pvp. It can be done, just need to find the right way to do it. I cant, but there are alot of talented people out there with alot of good ideas I'm sure.
On the point of having a game where once you die and start over you'd have to repeat yourself this could be fixed. I'd like to see a lot more freedom in MMO's where you don't have to do the next quest just because will let you level. What if you had the choice just to move on to one of the hardest areas in the game and you didn't have to be the highest level. This is why designing a perma death system would be so cool, instead of relying on levels and character progression in a linear way, the character would have to be able to go in any direction and it would be much more skill and tactical based. I didn't read most of these posts so I could just be repeating...sorry if I am...
The point is, none of the mainstream MMOs really support the concept, nor are they built to accommodate it so it is pointless (really) to request it. A MMO that supports Permadeath HAS to be built with it in mind from the start.
1) Not all monsters would kill (some would maim or knock out)
2) PvP would require a consious effort to kill
3) the game would have to be based around something other than levels
4) the gap between a 3 year player and a day one regened character would have to be somewhat minimal
5) There would need to be some connection between the dead and new character (generational system) thus preventing the need to do the same content over and over and over again (inheritence people, it is a good thing )
To the people who say there can be no RPG without progression, you are at a base, incorrect. RPGs are about the story, about character growth, not progression. Nowhere does it state that RPGs are about levels or any such nonsense. Progression is something the EQ people thought up and it took all the bad aspects of DnD and then added more bad things like time sinks.
Move to a masterbook style system where a day one toon has a shot against any creature in the game and the risks of a perma death system become more tangible. Add that to the fact that griefing becomes more of an issue because that newbie could just beat the shit out of you and it would limit that play style to some extent.
In short, it is possible to develop such a system, but there are alot of variables and balancing that would need to be gotten right to make it work.
Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!
I notice that you've edited this to take out the use of "we" and deleted your weak argument about the names database. Nice to see that you adapted, but it is a little disingenuous dontcha think?
And yeah, I think you still sound unjustifiably pissed. The original way that this read, you were ranting about people deciding to play current games as permadeath. Now you've shifted the whole post to a possible non-existant game since people seem to support your point of view when it gets taken away from the context of optional permadeath in already existing games.
Furthermore, FFA PvP and permadeath are not the same thing or even related in any way. I've been arguing against FFA PvP for years on this site but I'm totally for "hardcore" permadeath servers or letting players flag their characters for permadeath.
Again, why do you care what OTHER people do with THEIR characters?
I would like to say that permadeath is absolutely FANTASTIC.
I'm a former Diablo 2 Hardcore PKer/Dueler (legit i might add). Most fun in a game I've ever had bar none. No game even comes close to the gory that diablo 2 hardcore was. It made accomplishments worthwhile, it made eveyrhting you did worthwhile. It was the best. But it has to be implemented correclty.
I tried playing WoW where when my character died I'd delete him and start again. I got to level 13 and then i got bored of the game and went back to Diablo 2 HC.
In the current MMO's i wouldn't have permadeath the classic way, what I would do is give a player a certain number of lives like 50 or 25 or whatever.
If a person reaches a certain level without dying they get a special look to them, like a halo or whatever. You have a graded reward system. So if a player level 70 hasn't died at all they get like a super duper halo that flashes and sings michael bolton or whatever.
ANother idea would be to have gear only for those who have died less than a certain number of times. That would make people who are distinguished hunted but it would be fun.
I swear i should make video games, i'd put blizzard out of business.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
The reason they don't have so many different server types:
Each server required maintenance, power, administrative costs, etc.
They will not keep a server up an running if they don't have enough players on that server to justify the cost of keeping it running.
This is why we see games with lower populations consilidate and then remove low population servers.
Point is, NO MMO Developer has seen enough potential in keeping a perma-death server up and running to add one to their server scheme. They believe it wouldn't have enough players to make it financially viable to keep the server running.
And I agree.
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression.Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
I actually liked the "generational" thing suggested by someone on this thread. I think that ideal really adds something to the genre, never you mind opening a door for perma-death that still allows progression. Ideally it would also open the game to more "sim" options as well...such as family building and such, but it would be touch and go trying to find a way to balance that into a "sandbox" style which also allowed for PvP.
I should probably thank you haters, before this whole mess started I would never have thought about things from this angle. It really opens lines of thought which are really interesting and could, one day, lead to something really great if a balance is struck.
Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
No, actually because it's fun...for some people. I choose to play perma-death style on at least one character, because it's a blast. Playing carefully and meaningfully, actually coming up with strategies for difficult encounters, and feeling your heart race because if you fail you actually lose something is fun for me and others.
Closing unpopular servers is definitely in the plans.
However, the choice is given to players. If you have 100k players, they deserve more then 1 or 2 setting rules...give them whatever # they deserve...then close those which are definitely not popular enought and try re-opening other completely differents which you think will please your players.
WoW would prolly have enought players on a permadeath server to justify it's remain open. And all players on every server would find that neat to see 1 more option, even if they would NEVER play there...the option is there...
This means more programmers and less designers...cause ultimately, the designers are the players, who support the design they prefer. Programmers are brilliant enought to propose various design ideas! A few designers present could say: yes we allow character transfer, or no we don't, in order to make sure the receiving server logic is not ruined (for example, no server would accept characters created on a casual server, it would be unfair for the receiving player-base).
Specific server rules is definitely the future, and the players just pick whichever they prefer. The nicest thing is, they don't have to work as such necessarily at the launch of the server. You are just honest with the players, say this is the intent direction of said server, that adjustments will be made/fixed based on popularity of servers. You may add that way something completely different, but for the moment been, it is just another core-rule server, with this intended direction (work easier when it concern endgame).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Permadeath seems like a good idea until that one guy/gal who spend their entire gaming time playing at odd hours, always tackling content way below their skill/level slowly leveling/gaining skills to maximum, then they start slaughtering every one and everything around them, no one ever get's to the level they are and permadeath becomes a super griefing tool.
Those who want Permadeath also always seem to want FFA PvP.
Why?
Becuase they will be the ones who find a "safe" way to rise to the maximum skill/level cap and then grief the living sh*t out of every one and everything they see to inflate their e-pen15.
They want to gank you, steal your stuff (even though it's worthless noob gear) and instead of continuing to beat you down (griefing) once you respawn, they just want to permanently kill you.
Shows that NOOB for not being L337 enough to "make the cut" in such a "hardcore" game.
LOL
Pathetic.
Pfft OP
Permadeath worked in Diablo2 so why shouldnt it work in another mmo? Granted D2 wasnt an mmo, but it was close. Some people want that challenge and not get spoonfeed and handheld though every ingame challenge, you know using their brain and actually form some kind of tactic. Not everyone like the extreme easyness of WoW either. I mean, you have to be a complete retard to not succeed in that game, and amazingly enough, I met some players like that when I still played WoW. And btw, its the only mmo I've met people like that, and I've played my share.
Hehe, on a sidenote I now know why WoW so popular. It brought the mmo game to the masses(used to be a thinking persons game), and as we all know, most people are stupid as hell.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I would never play on a Permadeath server...or any PvP server for that matter. But, in a game as WoW...wouldn't it be nice that all these players play on the same server instead of yours? :P
And if there are 10k such players and they all play on the same server, who care what happen there? :P Not me. Not you. And you are happy on your server with peoples that think like you. I am happy on mine with peoples which think like me.
See, the guy you describe, I want him to play on ANOTHER server. Not mine. Even if he can't PK me, PvP me or grief me in anyway...he will tries to find such a way...but now...he has a server for him...he goes there...and see his brothers and sisters and they kill each other in that gankfest! :P
And the MMO devs are happy cashing all-in all our money even if they see that they need to hire 10 more programmers due to population increase and that soo many servers need rules adjustements. :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You misunderstand me, I agree with you that offering more choice in server types is the way to go.
The more choices the better, let the sociopath pathetic ganker/griefer loses have their own server, but I'll be the one laughing when the server population is at 100 and they shut it down / switch it from perma-death to a standard server type.
Point is, in a game like WoW, with 10+million people you might be able to get enough population to have ONE perma-death server. Go ahead, I won't touch it.
Pretty large generalization, since the most recent perma death post was about DDO and the many perma-death players and guilds...in a game without hardly any PVP, and most exclude PVP from the perma death ruleset because it's just for fun.
Actually, the majority of the time, those that like permadeath tend to be the complete opposite of that. They tend to be more on the RP side than the OMFG EYE GANKED j00!! side of things. The sort you describe dwell far more in the pvp realm than anywhere else (yes I know, not ALL pvp people are like that).
The sort you describe would despise hardcore permadeath and the first time they lost their supa-L337 choon, they would quit hardcore and find their bullying fix elsewhere....
yeah,you seem pretty stupid and elitist,im sure you fit in well there.
I'm pissed? News to me.
Very well put!! Bravo!
Exactly.
This of course assumes that the game in question will be the same as a standard MMO like WoW.
No, this assumes that the game in question has any sort of progression, as I stated. And so far, every single MMO has had some kind of progression system. One could even say that the RPG aspect of MMORPG demands that the game have some sort of progression.Perma-death requires you to repeat the progression. And for what reason? It's "realistic?"
Well, you can't really have an MMO without progression.
You misunderstand me, I agree with you that offering more choice in server types is the way to go.
The more choices the better, let the sociopath pathetic ganker/griefer loses have their own server, but I'll be the one laughing when the server population is at 100 and they shut it down / switch it from perma-death to a standard server type.
Point is, in a game like WoW, with 10+million people you might be able to get enough population to have ONE perma-death server. Go ahead, I won't touch it.
Well said. I have no objection for developers to try it out as long as it is optional. I won't touch it but hey, if you can find enough people to support a server, more power to you.
Permadeath for the Role Playing side would indeed make sense.
But as someone talked about a DDO guild, permadeath is REALLY easy to Role Play...
Just delete your toon if you die. You don't need special servers or rule sets or anything.
If it's NOT about PvP then you aren't in competition with others, only the game itself. I imagine if you told a PvP Permadeath fan to delete their toon if they die in PvP, they'll say "but the other people on my server won't do that, so I'll never get ahead! Not unless everyone else deletes their toons too!"
Which boils down to the main point, they want to perma-PK others and force them to restart so they can get ahead, stroking their e-pen15. But ask them to permadeath themselves and they scream and cry NO!
Well, you can't really have an MMO without progression.
Exactly my point.
Permadeath + progression = wasted progression, repeated content, burned out/bored faster
yeah,you seem pretty stupid and elitist,im sure you fit in well there.
Whatever kind of insult you thought that would be to me, you missed it. Cant even take a joke, sheesh...
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Anyway, the point of permadeath is to make the game more of a challenge and add some more to the game that isnt there from before.
Forget pvp, pvp has nothing to do with permadeath at all. The gank kiddies wont play permadeath anyway, cause if they die, and they will eventually, they will lose their little eleet-toon and all their so-called work on it would go to waste. Then they will start to whine to the devs via forums and emails and so on...you people know the drill...
I support permadeath in a controlled environment, with strict rules to what can be done, or not, especially concerning pvp. It can be done, just need to find the right way to do it. I cant, but there are alot of talented people out there with alot of good ideas I'm sure.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
On the point of having a game where once you die and start over you'd have to repeat yourself this could be fixed. I'd like to see a lot more freedom in MMO's where you don't have to do the next quest just because will let you level. What if you had the choice just to move on to one of the hardest areas in the game and you didn't have to be the highest level. This is why designing a perma death system would be so cool, instead of relying on levels and character progression in a linear way, the character would have to be able to go in any direction and it would be much more skill and tactical based. I didn't read most of these posts so I could just be repeating...sorry if I am...
The point is, none of the mainstream MMOs really support the concept, nor are they built to accommodate it so it is pointless (really) to request it. A MMO that supports Permadeath HAS to be built with it in mind from the start.
1) Not all monsters would kill (some would maim or knock out)
2) PvP would require a consious effort to kill
3) the game would have to be based around something other than levels
4) the gap between a 3 year player and a day one regened character would have to be somewhat minimal
5) There would need to be some connection between the dead and new character (generational system) thus preventing the need to do the same content over and over and over again (inheritence people, it is a good thing
)
To the people who say there can be no RPG without progression, you are at a base, incorrect. RPGs are about the story, about character growth, not progression. Nowhere does it state that RPGs are about levels or any such nonsense. Progression is something the EQ people thought up and it took all the bad aspects of DnD and then added more bad things like time sinks.
Move to a masterbook style system where a day one toon has a shot against any creature in the game and the risks of a perma death system become more tangible. Add that to the fact that griefing becomes more of an issue because that newbie could just beat the shit out of you and it would limit that play style to some extent.
In short, it is possible to develop such a system, but there are alot of variables and balancing that would need to be gotten right to make it work.
I notice that you've edited this to take out the use of "we" and deleted your weak argument about the names database. Nice to see that you adapted, but it is a little disingenuous dontcha think?
And yeah, I think you still sound unjustifiably pissed. The original way that this read, you were ranting about people deciding to play current games as permadeath. Now you've shifted the whole post to a possible non-existant game since people seem to support your point of view when it gets taken away from the context of optional permadeath in already existing games.
Furthermore, FFA PvP and permadeath are not the same thing or even related in any way. I've been arguing against FFA PvP for years on this site but I'm totally for "hardcore" permadeath servers or letting players flag their characters for permadeath.
Again, why do you care what OTHER people do with THEIR characters?
I would like to say that permadeath is absolutely FANTASTIC.
I'm a former Diablo 2 Hardcore PKer/Dueler (legit i might add). Most fun in a game I've ever had bar none. No game even comes close to the gory that diablo 2 hardcore was. It made accomplishments worthwhile, it made eveyrhting you did worthwhile. It was the best. But it has to be implemented correclty.
I tried playing WoW where when my character died I'd delete him and start again. I got to level 13 and then i got bored of the game and went back to Diablo 2 HC.
In the current MMO's i wouldn't have permadeath the classic way, what I would do is give a player a certain number of lives like 50 or 25 or whatever.
If a person reaches a certain level without dying they get a special look to them, like a halo or whatever. You have a graded reward system. So if a player level 70 hasn't died at all they get like a super duper halo that flashes and sings michael bolton or whatever.
ANother idea would be to have gear only for those who have died less than a certain number of times. That would make people who are distinguished hunted but it would be fun.
I swear i should make video games, i'd put blizzard out of business.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.