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Convenience kills Immersion, I'm sick of it. I want a hardcore MMO
etwynn
Member Posts: 219
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Comments
Play Ultima Online
Best MMO ever
Close your eyes and forget about the graphics (old 2d version rlz)
hi
Etwynn,
One thing I have realized is that what I would find amazingly fun in a game is not what most people would find fun in a game. You are not the average gamer nor am I. What we like is not what the masses would most likely enjoy and thus is probably not a good idea.
Then again, a good idea is one that gets you the most money right? I like what you say, but the reality is that most of the things I'd like in a MMO will probably be hated by most others. It's something I have accepted.
Most MMO's fail for one and only one reason.
1. They are broken in some way shape or form. By broken i mean there's something in them that viscerally pisses people off just by playing it.
An example of what I'm saying is Anofayle. I mean this guy is like straight PvE let me be railroaded and have no choices. THere are 10 million WoW subscribers, it seems to work.
EVE all the way
.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Some interesting ideas but the biggest barrier to immersion would still be other players who ran around shouting "LFG" & instantly saying "Quest" to every NPC in whatever town area you were in.
Unfortunately the 'Convenience Players' are usually in the majority, so a game that forced players to take the difficult route might not last long. I think games have ended up going the easy route to allow for people who don't have the time or patience to really want to immerse themselves in the world, having said that though it should be possible to have more options that allow players that want immersion to effectively take the scenic route.
I play EQ2, where every quest NPC now conveniently has illuminated objects over their heads to remove the need to work out who to talk to. If this option could be turned off, and a simple text interface was also used to replace the 'Push Button Balloon Replies' then it could still accommodate both styles of gameplay from the same underlying programming scripts.
Most games already have the option to selectively disable 'Chat Channels', so as long as you aren't worried about people that think you have gone deaf you can play at a local level already.
As anyone who has regretted joining a random 'Dude Pickup Group' can tell you though, the biggest problem will always be anti-social players, the necessary evil that pays all the bills.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
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IMO one of the biggest things being left out of todays MMoRPGs is a true first person view like original EQ had...where you saw your hands and your weapon in them, you looked down you saw your feet, you had to turn your head to see things around you and behind you, plus as you ran your view floated slightly up & down, not enough to cuase motion sickness but just enough to give a feel like you where running.
Going into a new area or dungeon in this manner was much more immersive then the 3rd person view that is popular with the devs of games since eq (AO had an OK 1st person but not as good).
True first person combined with collision detection...yes its also hard for your character to seem real when your fighting a monster with 20 other folks and your all in one spot, or your running thru a city and everyone you approach runs right thru you.
Will anyone ever bring these 2 immesion factors back?, if it comes in a good game I will be there.
Godz of War I call Thee
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Personally, it's a question of what sucks you into a game and what doesn't. TBH, the game you describe is probably immersive for a chosen few hard-boiled warrior-type players that like to live by their sword, ready to risk their lives to travel to the next town.
What do you think other player types would think about the concept you just outlined? Do you think everyone would be better off facing a fierce, unforgiving world? Why, for example, does the fraction of female players in EVE equal 0 where as in games like The Sims Online there are more women than men?
When I look around in my current game, LotRO, playing on an RP realm, I can see all types of players, black-armored warriors that run through everything and complete the rift in 2 hours as well as elves in ball gowns who haven't completed level 21 for five weeks. In my world, an immersive MMORPG allows all types of players to follow their idea of fun to a certain extent... I can actually see this hardcore MMO go live with armies of sword bearing freaks in their mid-20s living their warrior-lives; with other playstyles totally disappearing. You can see this happen in WoW. On 80% of the servers the general mindset is "lolol we pwned Hyjal hard l00k my nu uber axe". That happens if you provide content only for one singular playstyle... it kills diversity...
Meridion
to OP, agree 100%.
I too have been waiting for a hardcore mmorpg, since 2004(around the time i stopped playing DAoC)
everything since has been carebare to the extreme.
Does anyone know how to make a mmoRPG anymore?
LOL The op are forced to join us....the Darkfall zombies.
Fully agree with you. Sadly the easy games are the more popular ones however and developers and investors won't design a game for a minority when they just as well - with the same investment - can design a game that appeals to a larger number of subscribers. Therefore all major titles from major companies will be easy-mode games for years to come.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I agree -- any *major* company is going to want mass penetration in the mmo market
smaller companies tho... time will tell
EQ2 fan sites
I think you got a great idea there. But I don't know if there are people enough that are willing to play that game.
OP:
You are not getting a hardcore mmo. At least not for a very long time. Most people seem to want a "modern" game.
Otherwise, go play EQ or UO or any of the other original games. But then someone always points out that they are not what they used to be. My guess is probably that the dev's couldn't maintain the game the way it was and felt that it really needed to change or else die.
Games cost a lot of money to make and mmo players are fickle at best and atrocious and whiny at worst. Spend x amount of millions of dollars and some group is going to complain that there is not enough of "this" and too much of "that".
They then go on to the next best thing with the game closing and people out of work and investors not too happy. Remember, you are most likely an investor as you probaby have a mutual fund or 401k in order to prepare for retirement. I highly doubt that you would be amused if your 401k started investing in companies that made old style games which then lost money. Your money. Not much of a retirement now is it?
Like anything else it is a business. There are now many people who have discovered the thrill of online games. These people are also NOT gamers and could never see themselves getting lost for hours on end or figuring out who has the quests. They want to play games they don't want to live another life. And quite frankly kudos to them for being able to distinguish the two.
There are old style games out there. Like any other game they have their issues. Go play them. UO is still there, EQ is still there, Anarchy online is still there.
Or wait for some small developer to make something that harkens back to old style gameplay. It won't have the best graphics and will probably have a small population. And it will have its issues. The question is, will you support it or will you just look for somehthing else like so many other gamers. It's getting to the point that people are coming to these forums, crying and complaining that hey want what they want but with no leg in reality whatsoever. It seems that you want "others" to spend their time and their money to make somehting that may or may not succeed, so you can play for a few months and then move on to something else, leaving them to scramble to make the product successful or fail.
I'm sure all of you work for businesses that teeter on the chance of failure every day. Or do you have jobs and carreers where there is a bit more stability and less of a chance for you to be out of work?
Well, game makers would probably like the same thing. So they make games that will have a chance of lasting.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree with most of the list in the OP, except two main points which will never, ever work in an online game.
No global chat, LFG, and no instant travel.
Here's why. I log on this week, and I meet someone, or a group, that I really enjoy playing with. Then I log on next week, and want to find these people again. With no global chat, I can't find them. That sucks. OR, we have to exchange MSN names, and use third party software. That sucks.
Second, I do find them, but they are far away. If it will take me an hour to travel to meet them, we won't end up playing together, and this sucks.
Travel, like in EQ2 or City of Heroes, is just about right. Some areas you have to walk to, but for long distances there is some kind of fast transportation. That means expoloring on foot is still necessary and fun, however you can still meet up with other players.
It's an online game, and you play so you can interact with other players. Making this impossible or frustrating doesn't make the game better.
hey dudes...op...have you ever tried ffxi? its an awesome game.....but a tad bit too "hardcore" for me....takes me like 3 hours of prepping just get some exp going.....and then i end up dying 3min into combat...which in turn then takes me like "x" amount of time to mount my choco and run back...juts a suggestion tho....if you have very low patience....do not pick a tanking class....as i guarantee you will be wondering sometimes...what the hell it is the rest of your party is doing....causethere CLEARLY not healing nor handling aggro...lol..yay ffxi! but seriously tho, tis not a bad game at all.
Sounds like you may enjoy The Saga Of Ryzom, from the start its hard as hell, and trying to go somewhere is perilous.
playing eq2 and two worlds
In LOTRO, in Beta, there was a versioin of the Old Forest that was so mazelike that getting lost was a given. It was more confusing than the Old Forest that is in the game now.
And I absoutely loved it.
However, there was nothing pressing on my time when I was in there. I would argue for the dev's to keep it after they changed it.
Until I started hearing players say that they wanted to join others in quests, couldn't get out of the forest and had to wait for their map timer so they could port out if they couldn't find their way out.
Suddenly I had visions of many places in the gameworld that could be like this, people would get frustrated and would, after a while, just not want to log in.
Now, to the hardcore old timey gamer, no problem. That is their bread and butter. But given the resources that these games take, given that players are fickle and will delete from hard drive vaster than you can say NGE, there just aren't enough old time players to keep a game like that going. Especially since the dev's are going to want to bring in a few more players and will piss off the hardcore playerbase.
Heck, look at Ryzom. Where were the players? Sure, you had many players who loved that game but just not enough to keep it going. Skill Based? Check. Open world? Check, Weather, reality based indigenous life that would react to you like real animals? Check. Sandbox? Check.
Where were the players. Elsewhere.
And now that game is no more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In LOTRO, in Beta, there was a versioin of the Old Forest that was so mazelike that getting lost was a given. It was more confusing than the Old Forest that is in the game now.
And I absoutely loved it.
However, there was nothing pressing on my time when I was in there. I would argue for the dev's to keep it after they changed it.
Until I started hearing players say that they wanted to join others in quests, couldn't get out of the forest and had to wait for their map timer so they could port out if they couldn't find their way out.
Suddenly I had visions of many places in the gameworld that could be like this, people would get frustrated and would, after a while, just not want to log in.
Now, to the hardcore old timey gamer, no problem. That is their bread and butter. But given the resources that these games take, given that players are fickle and will delete from hard drive vaster than you can say NGE, there just aren't enough old time players to keep a game like that going. Especially since the dev's are going to want to bring in a few more players and will piss off the hardcore playerbase.
Heck, look at Ryzom. Where were the players? Sure, you had many players who loved that game but just not enough to keep it going. Skill Based? Check. Open world? Check, Weather, reality based indigenous life that would react to you like real animals? Check. Sandbox? Check.
Where were the players. Elsewhere.
And now that game is no more.
Saga of ryzom is gone>? well that sux, i take back my statement then about the op may like saga of ryzom lol.
playing eq2 and two worlds
It's in liquidation. No one knows what will happen
http://forums.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31953
So as I said "we want sandbox, we want choice, we want an open world"
"well, what about Ryzom?"
"no, not that one, we want another".
THIS is what happens!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sounds like someone is waiting for Darkfall.
So you would have the cities with the crafting and the socializing and the shops for players who want that and then the frontlines of the war between factions so you can PVP with a purpose and then the areas for exploration and dungeon crawling for raiding.
The main problem I see with this is threefold tho. First the socializers wont like the PVP leets running into town talking about pwnage and ruining their immersion and the PVPers wont like that they can't run into town and kill and loot everyone.
Second, something will begin to suffer given enough time. Imagine the number of devs you would need to keep this truly massive MMO running and keep it full of new content for all the different types of players.
Thirdly..... well I forgot the third thing so some one add it please.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
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there is no point in giving the developers ideas. they know how to make an immersive game (they are professionals after all) its just they dont want to. most MMO's want to appeal to everyone they can. this approach is wrong. They need to stop trying to cover EVERY base and focus on a few.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
When the time comes that we all have our personal robot workers that we can send to do our jobs everyday and we get to spend all of our time doing whatever the heck it is we want to do, then a real hardcore game will make sense.
Until that happens, hardcore games are going to be nothing but a niche market. Sorry guys. I would probably like to play one too. But the fact of the matter is, life goes on. We have to go to work, meet up with our families occasionally, eat, bathe, take care of personal business, commute, visit friends, and seek a spouse if one has not been found yet.
All those things take a lot of time. It may seem like things are all hunky dorey when you're living under your parents roof and going to that thing we call school, but sooooon after you get out of that the reality sets in. It takes a little while longer for some than others (which is where collection agencies come from) but that reality does eventually set in for all of us some time before death. Well, unless you meet an untimely tragedy.
So, go play casual games and dream of that holy land that may someday come.
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