I don't agree with everything in your post, but you've got a lot of good points in there, and I'd agree with most of them. I particularly like the part about broad loot tables, because I hate farming a specific mob for a specific item. There's nothing worse then a key group member unwilling to go to an instance because they have every piece of gear that instance can drop. I'd rather be able to go to any dungeon of appropriate level and have any item in that particular level range able to drop from the bosses. This is one aspect of wow that drove me absolutely batty, and really was a primary factor in me leaving the game.
As for hardcore and casual, these words should be avoided altogether in forums. They mean so many different things to different people...
Immersion is not the same to you as it is for me. How it starts. How it is kept and how it is followed through.
I'm not so much trying to make a point here as I am trying to start an open discussion on bringing immersion back into MMORPGs.
Not so much trying to make a point as trying to start an open discussion based on what YOU believe makes or breaks a game.
No.
I agree on the bigger dungeon part. It should feel more epic and less of a 'quickie'.
Quests are tedious.
If it doesn't add anything to the >>>story line<<< then it completely pulls...no, YANKS you away from feeling a part of the world. If the game in question advertised itself as "+RPG".
Harsher death penalty: make us start a dungeon over if we wipe.
Are you serious? How would this fit 'logically' in your little world that you oh-so-painfully immersed yourself in?
Slower xp
Yarrr. Away with all the leveling. Make my character look older/something-visible which shows that my little guy/gal has grown. I really like Fable. Gimme something like that but online
Other stuff I do not want to comment/opinionate on because I feel that you can never truly make a large amount of people happy. Some want it fast (A to B in a Ferrari?), others want it slow (go go horsie).
I wish i had avoided the word hardcore because people are too dumb to understand that words can mean different things.
Don't blame people that whenever they hear the word hardcore they immediately associate it to leveling.
When the time comes that we all have our personal robot workers that we can send to do our jobs everyday and we get to spend all of our time doing whatever the heck it is we want to do, then a real hardcore game will make sense. Until that happens, hardcore games are going to be nothing but a niche market. Sorry guys. I would probably like to play one too. But the fact of the matter is, life goes on. We have to go to work, meet up with our families occasionally, eat, bathe, take care of personal business, commute, visit friends, and seek a spouse if one has not been found yet. All those things take a lot of time. It may seem like things are all hunky dorey when you're living under your parents roof and going to that thing we call school, but sooooon after you get out of that the reality sets in. It takes a little while longer for some than others (which is where collection agencies come from) but that reality does eventually set in for all of us some time before death. Well, unless you meet an untimely tragedy. So, go play casual games and dream of that holy land that may someday come.
I don't understand this false notion that hardcore = too much time required to play. If you actually read through my post rather than responding to it based on the title, i think you'll find that a game can have immersive elements without requiring 6 hour/day shifts. Anyway, it's not like there aren't plenty of people who do that already in non-"hardcore" games. I wish i had avoided the word hardcore because people are too dumb to understand that words can mean different things.
I'm going to look over the fact that you called me dumb. It's just not worth the argument, nor am I really that worried about a 19 year old calling me that. It's sort of cute. Like when my neice calls me "cabbage". I know you really didn't mean it. Awwwww... Someday we may have a beer together and laugh at this moment.
And there aren't plenty of people who do those 6 hour/day shifts. There are plenty of casual players. Such as myself. Sorry to break it to you bud, but we make up the largest part of the market. That's just the way it is. We have the most money, we spend the most money, we can afford to pay for the games, because we have the jobs that get us to the stores. The developers know this. Not to mention, you know those developers? They're adults like us. And most PC games are made for adults. If you want to talk more about games for teens and preteens your talking about consoles. At this point in time though (and I'm sure this is going to change soon someday), the MMO market is purty darn near PC saturated.
Look at it this way. You're almost one of us. Soon enough, you'll find you a nice little lady friend, get you a job that takes more than 8 hours a day, start taking care of household duties, and even someday maybe have some little ones to take up that spare time. Then you'll appreciate the casual games as much as we do.
Oh the joy of that 1/2 hour to hour a day I get to spend having fun. If only I could keep my head up and not fall asleep on the keyboard during it all.
For immersion, you need realism and liberty in what you can do. Current MMOs don't have that.
Immersion makes the game come alive in your imagination. It has nothing to do with realism and liberty, per se. Those could be your personal triggers but it does not represent everyone else.
Originally posted by nblitz Originally posted by admiralnlson For immersion, you need realism and liberty in what you can do. Current MMOs don't have that.
Immersion makes the game come alive in your imagination. It has nothing to do with realism and liberty, per se. Those could be your personal triggers but it does not represent everyone else.I'm sorry but when I loot a Shield on the tiger I just killed, even though I have a good imagination, that's just ridiculous and it breaks the immersion for me.
Same thing when, this time, I CAN'T loot the gold from the player corpse in front of me.
Didn't really read the replies so ill just respond to the op.
Taken on just the subject heading alone, I agree 100%. At least, the convenience killing immersion part. Maybe its my generation and getting older but I would hope thats not the problem - Older games are the most memorable for me and the most immersive, and they were also extremely inconvient. UO certainly ranks in the top. But even outside of mmos, games that required skill and were hard to beat. They don't make them like that anymore.
I don't know if I agree with all of your sub item points though as supporting the immersion you seem to be looking for (though they may support the 'hardcore' concept). I also don't know if I agree that hardcore = immersion. But ill talk about the individual points. I'm coming from the position on this one that I want to increase immersion, so thats how I'll argue it.
Too much civilization - From a pve standpoint in regards to safe areas, can't argue with you on this one. Wilderness should be wilderness, not a backyard surrounded by a nice white picket fence. And as you said there should be a lot more wilderness than civilization. There should be some fear here, and there isn't anymore. If not of being there, than certainly of 'feinting'/dying there.
Solo and group content - There should be both I agree, and lacking either would hurt immersion. I think the gamers tendency for 'completionist' is the problem on this one. Everyone wants to complete everything there is to do, but they don't always want to do what needs to be done to complete it. They just want it checked off. If they are solo'ers, that means it needs to be soloable. Or groupable if they are a grouper. I think a big part of this is because everything is reward centric, but thats only natural. Its not about the journey but the destination for some, and thats why every playstyle being able to complete it is accounted for.
Chat/lfg - I may be crazy but I really wanted this one too... have for a while. A vast array of communication tools is such a standard now and it really has changed the dynamic of games without people realizing it. Some thing its only more convienant, but I think something was lost in the transition. Its a lot like the transition to cell phones in modern culture. Everyone uses cell phones now but rarely talks face to face with anyone compared to how they used to. Its certainly changed how people interract, and in so doing has hurt immersion.
Instances - This one is kind of a love hate relationship. But I am going to come at it from the immersion point of view as I said earlier. Instances have a technical reason for existing but I do not think that is their only purpose. People can help immersion but they can also ruin it. Often the latter. Going to a dangerous dungeon that everyone is supposed to be frightened of, and finding 100 other players camping it, does not help immersion AT ALL. Instances make places seem more like they should be in terms of crowding and activity. Finishing up a dungeon and seeing some bouncing elf run around the room jumping like a madman certainly doesn't get me in the mood. I can perfectly understand the argument for instances making you disconnected from the world, but well... i think its a small price to pay for people ruining it far more often.
Bigger dungeons - I would like to see such things but dont think size has anything to do with immersion particularly. Though i suppose 'getting lost' in one, which could only happen in a large size, would certainly help with the feeling. So I guess i still agree in some part.
Quests are tedius - Quests are story, and story is key in immersion, so yeahhhhhh. I blame this all on a focus towards graphics and less on story in this day and age. There are older rpgs out there with excellent stories... planescape torment was one of my favorites. Really drew you in and made you care about the characters. Until we get over the obsession with visuals I don't see how anyone is going to put in the necessary time to make great stories again. We are left with the tacked on collection and kill quests. If not better stories that people care about, than certainly something more dynamic.
No quest logs - Hehe... with my memory i dont know if i could handle this one. I think this is one case where I wouldnt be able to give up the convienance. But i think this is in large part due to the fact we have so many simultaneous quests. A big long list of 20+ usually. If we only focused on one or two at a time, this wouldnt be such a huge issue. But we all like to grab all the available ones in the area and do them in the most efficient manner possible.
Thotbot - Confused on this one, you talk about making things harder and more complex but than say you want things easy so you dont have to use outside information sources. The problem here is not with the games, its with the players. But its a problem that wont go away. People that want advantages will meta-game to get those advantages. That means guide books and websites. Personally it ruins the experience for me so i never use em. But I doubt anyone else will follow me on that one.
Death penalty/xp - Real life is only meaningful because of death. Games are no different. I want my character to have some measure of meaning even if it is just a game, so it makes sense I would want a death penalty that means something, and xp that I actually earned and wasn't just given. But not everyone is looking to find this kind of meaning in a game (because its just a game). I find the meaning helps immersion which is why i like it. But it comes down to what people are looking for in their experience. Accomplishment, quick and easy, non-stop fun, meaning... I don't think you can have them all at the same time because they conflict. Its one of lifes most important lessons. Cake and eating it too, and all that.
Travel - Seems like all I do in games is run from one location to another. Only a few involve a lot of teleportation, mostly limited to bind stone warping home. To get the content to fill every travel from point a to b would be kind of unnecessary... as soon as you fill that space in between with content... it becomes the new destination! I think you might really just be saying 'no boring empty spaces'. Well thats great, though i think devs would just start making the maps a lot smaller if that were the case.
Just my random disconnected thoughts.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
I started reading your topic because I agree with its title: convenience does kill immersion. But soon I saw you're too hardcore for my taste. A game made to fit your taste would appease only a small community and commercially, it would hardly succeed. It's not gonna happen, unless YOU create it. Ever thought about it?
There will always games that break immersion... having a HUD breaks immersion... a character sheet... an inventory screen... seems to me you're just nitpicking... I think one thing you're forgetting though, is that you're playing a game, and there's only so much that can be done to make it seem as if you're not. There might be ways to avoid a HUD, and typical inventory screens and things, but chances are some of them, or all of them, are just going to be unnecessary inconveniences. I know you weren't saying the things that I said break immersion but you may as well have.
Everyone has their version of their ideal game and until people themselves start making their own games many of them will never get to experience them... So unless you can play other peoples' ideal game and just accept it and enjoy it for what it is, maybe it's time for you to pick up some programming books and make your ideal game and stop expecting other people to go out of their way to please you.
What you want is not what I want and probably not what 99% of the gaming population want.
1) I like instancing.
2) small dungeons are good. You can always go to the harder one. I have only 2 hours a nite and I want to be able to finish it.
3) I *like* safe zones. In fact, I seldom play PvP and don't want to deal with Pkers.
4) I like lots of quests. It give me incentive to go around zones instead of killing at the "optimal" grinding site. And quest log is a god send. Who want to write down all the stuff?
5) I love throbott and Allakhazam. It helps to plan my play time so I don't have to waste my precious play time wandering around.
In short, you are ranting about features that many people like. And while I completely support you right to rant, there is a reason why all these things have become almost standard .... lots of people like them.
I highly doubt the industry will go backwards and start to cater to the few hardcore gamers. May be you can find a niche game that can do that but don't expect that next $50M AAA title to do so.
no lfg: I like a good looking for group interface. One of the strengths of Everquest was the ability to find people to fill the gaps in your group. One of the weaknesses of World of Warcraft was you could hunt all day in an area appropriate to your level and never see enough people from your faction to form a group, Forming a balanced group with the skills needed to hunt in the dungeon in that area was even more unlikely. In WoW toons wasted hours in the main city waiting for a group for a dungeon that had content appropriate for their class and level.
Instances are antisocial. I disagree. I have done more grouping in games that had instances than in games that had no instances.
Bigger dungeons: Whether or not big dungeons work in practice depends on how they are implemented. It is hard these days to find a group of people that has the time to do a big dungeon crawl if you have to fight your way to the end. This is particularly the case where mobs respawn behind you and there is no easy way replace group members that had to leave. Over half of my dungeon runs in WoW were aborted half way through because people had to leave.
Quests are tedious! Quests can be lots of fun. Lots of people love them. In a good game, quests are optional. They are there for people who chose to do them because they like them.
NO questlogs! NO "accepting" quests. I like quest logs. I used to do paper based quest logs when Zork was a text based game. It was fun at the time. No quest logs is just tedious now and waste of paper. In a a large world with hundreds or thousands of NPC's and quests, you need some method of finding suitable quests for your toon.
Loot drops: You should be able to get appropriate loot for your toon from all mobs your level. Having particular loot drop in one location, means that people will not hunt that area if the loot is not useable or relevant to their toon. For example, try finding a healer for a dungeon that has no drops useable by healer.
Harsher death penalty: This can be good or bad depending on the game. It only works if the fights are really consistent, are skill based with nothing left to chance. It also depends on how the game handles disconnects and lag. Games that want an international customer base also have to be able to handle both long and short ping times.
Slower xp: There's nothing wrong with a slow xp rate if you have the content to match it. However, very few games have the content to match it. There needs to be content besides just grinding mobs for xp to gain the next level. Something good should happen for your toon at least once every hour. It could be a good armor or weapon drop, improved faction, completion of part of a quest, gain a skill point that you can add to your skill point pool.
Real travel: I hate slow travel. Slow traveI is not tedious in a game where you never need to go back to previously visited areas and never need to travel to town to sell or resupply. Slow travel is important in areas where travel time for reinforcements and planned attacks are a necessary part of the overall tactics or strategy. Most large game worlds need some form of fast travel or it just becomes tedious.
No offense but who are you to be telling game developers what they should or shouldn't be doing? At the most you are a paying customer to them, but there are millions of the same thing that aren't so picky.
You can spend all day ranting to other MMO players, and maybe a very small number of professional developers (who doubtfully have a say in doing anything about your ideas) in vain or you could do something productive to bring your ideas to life, e.g. start making your own game.
There will always games that break immersion... having a HUD breaks immersion... a character sheet... an inventory screen... seems to me you're just nitpicking... I think one thing you're forgetting though, is that you're playing a game, and there's only so much that can be done to make it seem as if you're not. There might be ways to avoid a HUD, and typical inventory screens and things, but chances are some of them, or all of them, are just going to be unnecessary inconveniences. I know you weren't saying the things that I said break immersion but you may as well have.
Even if there are things that will inevitably break immersion, this is hardly a reason to ignore the issue entirely. Developers should do all the could to make the game immersive. Even if there are immersion-breaking elements, the game's immersiveness is judged on the whole.
What you seek as immersion, as enjoyment, others might seen as nuisance or annoyance. From the story we learn through WoW, it appears that there is a sizable market for casual playing games. Games that are not hardcore. For those players who only play once in a while, hardcore, heavy penalty, 24/7 may not be immersion. Long travelling routes on foot might be a negative factor, while deep dungeons would be too much for those who can only afford an hour a day on and off afk.
As you have already indicated, what you sought would be a market niche. Developers throwing out a big budget will generally not restrict their products to just a small handful of subscribers however loyal. There surely will be a few small developers willing to bet a small budget to meet your tastes, but that means you have to content yourself with a small selection of games, if any.
Originally posted by etwynn Instances are antisocial. yeah. Bigger dungeons: wtb dungeons i can get lost in. Unfortunately, bite-sized dungeons have become industry standard because people don't have time to play through longer dungeons. Solution? Have decent conent in the mid-depth level of a dungeon (ie, after the soloable content but before the really tough stuff) so people never have to go to the deepest level if they dont have time.
Wow, your post is long and I plan to study it in further detail, but your paragraph on eliminating instances and making bigger dungeons made me stop right there and respond. I couldn't agree with you more. Instances ruin immersion. So, if that's the case, the solution must be to increase the size of dungeons to reduce the chance of overly camped areas. I know that's not easy, but this is your job devs. This is what you're getting paid to do. Make dungeons as far as the eye can see. Make it so if you go into one, your character has to celebrate a birthday or two down there. Just when you thought you've made a dungeon so big, it has nowhere else to go, make it bigger. If you happen to pass a party along the way, get a good look at their faces because you shouldn't be running into them again for a long time.
No offense but who are you to be telling game developers what they should or shouldn't be doing? At the most you are a paying customer to them, but there are millions of the same thing that aren't so picky.
You can spend all day ranting to other MMO players, and maybe a very small number of professional developers (who doubtfully have a say in doing anything about your ideas) in vain or you could do something productive to bring your ideas to life, e.g. start making your own game.
That is a bit harsh.
Everyone can rant here, so can the OP. This place provides a less "commercially sponsored" arena for view exchanges and for brainstorming. The OP has his unique preference which you may or may not agree with, but shouting him off the stage is not conducive to discussion, which is the blood and life of these forums.
So far as the OP conducts his ranting in a rational and well mannered form, we should welcome him and all his views. I see no abuses from the OP, did you see any?
I am not advocating tedium but rather immersion. If travel is fun, logging on just to travel somewhere should be fun. If you can make progress in a dungeon with a group, then log out in a safe spot knowing that you can log on again in that safe spot and get a new group to continue your progression, then it wouldnt matter if you only played for an hour.
LOL .. there is no way to make traveling fun enough to eliminate teleports. Sure, first time it is fun. However, unless you plan on each player to visit each location only ONCE (which you will never to afford to build enough locations), traveling become tedious after the 2-3 times on the same road.
Similiar, it is silly to make long dungeon and then log out at safe spots. It is impossible to ask your group mates to all schedule their play time for you in this dungeon again.
It is MUCH better to make many short dungeons than few large ones so you can finish and move onto the next one (may be with another group) next time.
I am a casual and I found most of your ideas unworkable. Short dungeons, instancing, quests are exactly the right way to go for casuals.
To the OP: Build it and I'll gladly play it. I'll also bring about 22 close friends who are also getting really tired of MMOG's. (Sorry, there's no RPG in most of these games anymore.)
But sadly MMO's aren't built for adventurers anymore. Seems the new generation of MMO players also can't play a game without having a website that distills everything down to it's most basic statistics. Is it truly fun to play a game where nothing is a surprise, no thrill of discovery, of... adventure? Most can't even figure out how to build their own character and have to rely on templates - then shunning anyone who doesn't also follow the FoTW template for their class.
I think the last game I played that I truly felt I had adventure in was... Asheron's Call. Since then the technology improves but the worlds get smaller and smaller - more like a thinly veiled theme parks than true wilderness. (Not counting EvE since it's in a different genre than the OP)
I guess this is what the mainstream gaming crowd wants. Odd, I called myself a gamer before most of these people were born, now they dictate the crap we have to put up with. Lore written by a 8th grader, boss fights out of platform games, glowy sparkly crap everywhere, shortcuts and hand holding for everything. Feh.
Thank god for EvE and it's ability to scare away the idiots early on.
Sad to hear about Ryzom. Great game really and a stellar community.
Comments
I don't agree with everything in your post, but you've got a lot of good points in there, and I'd agree with most of them. I particularly like the part about broad loot tables, because I hate farming a specific mob for a specific item. There's nothing worse then a key group member unwilling to go to an instance because they have every piece of gear that instance can drop. I'd rather be able to go to any dungeon of appropriate level and have any item in that particular level range able to drop from the bosses. This is one aspect of wow that drove me absolutely batty, and really was a primary factor in me leaving the game.
As for hardcore and casual, these words should be avoided altogether in forums. They mean so many different things to different people...
Immersion is not the same to you as it is for me. How it starts. How it is kept and how it is followed through.
Not so much trying to make a point as trying to start an open discussion based on what YOU believe makes or breaks a game.
No.
I agree on the bigger dungeon part. It should feel more epic and less of a 'quickie'.
If it doesn't add anything to the >>>story line<<< then it completely pulls...no, YANKS you away from feeling a part of the world. If the game in question advertised itself as "+RPG".
Are you serious? How would this fit 'logically' in your little world that you oh-so-painfully immersed yourself in?
Yarrr. Away with all the leveling. Make my character look older/something-visible which shows that my little guy/gal has grown. I really like Fable. Gimme something like that but online
Other stuff I do not want to comment/opinionate on because I feel that you can never truly make a large amount of people happy. Some want it fast (A to B in a Ferrari?), others want it slow (go go horsie).
Don't blame people that whenever they hear the word hardcore they immediately associate it to leveling.
A bit of a rude sentence nevertheless.
Someone above mentioned UO?
I don't understand this false notion that hardcore = too much time required to play. If you actually read through my post rather than responding to it based on the title, i think you'll find that a game can have immersive elements without requiring 6 hour/day shifts. Anyway, it's not like there aren't plenty of people who do that already in non-"hardcore" games. I wish i had avoided the word hardcore because people are too dumb to understand that words can mean different things.
I'm going to look over the fact that you called me dumb. It's just not worth the argument, nor am I really that worried about a 19 year old calling me that. It's sort of cute. Like when my neice calls me "cabbage". I know you really didn't mean it. Awwwww... Someday we may have a beer together and laugh at this moment.And there aren't plenty of people who do those 6 hour/day shifts. There are plenty of casual players. Such as myself. Sorry to break it to you bud, but we make up the largest part of the market. That's just the way it is. We have the most money, we spend the most money, we can afford to pay for the games, because we have the jobs that get us to the stores. The developers know this. Not to mention, you know those developers? They're adults like us. And most PC games are made for adults. If you want to talk more about games for teens and preteens your talking about consoles. At this point in time though (and I'm sure this is going to change soon someday), the MMO market is purty darn near PC saturated.
Look at it this way. You're almost one of us. Soon enough, you'll find you a nice little lady friend, get you a job that takes more than 8 hours a day, start taking care of household duties, and even someday maybe have some little ones to take up that spare time. Then you'll appreciate the casual games as much as we do.
Oh the joy of that 1/2 hour to hour a day I get to spend having fun. If only I could keep my head up and not fall asleep on the keyboard during it all.
===============================
For immersion, you need realism and liberty in what you can do. Current MMOs don't have that.
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
Immersion makes the game come alive in your imagination. It has nothing to do with realism and liberty, per se. Those could be your personal triggers but it does not represent everyone else.
..............
I'm sorry but when I loot a Shield on the tiger I just killed, even though I have a good imagination, that's just ridiculous and it breaks the immersion for me.
Same thing when, this time, I CAN'T loot the gold from the player corpse in front of me.
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
Yes OP it does seem pretty obvious that what you want same as me same as so many others is Darkfall.
It's improtant that we show the gaming industry just how much we want a game like Darkfall so they get the support they need.
Didn't really read the replies so ill just respond to the op.
Taken on just the subject heading alone, I agree 100%. At least, the convenience killing immersion part. Maybe its my generation and getting older but I would hope thats not the problem - Older games are the most memorable for me and the most immersive, and they were also extremely inconvient. UO certainly ranks in the top. But even outside of mmos, games that required skill and were hard to beat. They don't make them like that anymore.
I don't know if I agree with all of your sub item points though as supporting the immersion you seem to be looking for (though they may support the 'hardcore' concept). I also don't know if I agree that hardcore = immersion. But ill talk about the individual points. I'm coming from the position on this one that I want to increase immersion, so thats how I'll argue it.
Too much civilization - From a pve standpoint in regards to safe areas, can't argue with you on this one. Wilderness should be wilderness, not a backyard surrounded by a nice white picket fence. And as you said there should be a lot more wilderness than civilization. There should be some fear here, and there isn't anymore. If not of being there, than certainly of 'feinting'/dying there.
Solo and group content - There should be both I agree, and lacking either would hurt immersion. I think the gamers tendency for 'completionist' is the problem on this one. Everyone wants to complete everything there is to do, but they don't always want to do what needs to be done to complete it. They just want it checked off. If they are solo'ers, that means it needs to be soloable. Or groupable if they are a grouper. I think a big part of this is because everything is reward centric, but thats only natural. Its not about the journey but the destination for some, and thats why every playstyle being able to complete it is accounted for.
Chat/lfg - I may be crazy but I really wanted this one too... have for a while. A vast array of communication tools is such a standard now and it really has changed the dynamic of games without people realizing it. Some thing its only more convienant, but I think something was lost in the transition. Its a lot like the transition to cell phones in modern culture. Everyone uses cell phones now but rarely talks face to face with anyone compared to how they used to. Its certainly changed how people interract, and in so doing has hurt immersion.
Instances - This one is kind of a love hate relationship. But I am going to come at it from the immersion point of view as I said earlier. Instances have a technical reason for existing but I do not think that is their only purpose. People can help immersion but they can also ruin it. Often the latter. Going to a dangerous dungeon that everyone is supposed to be frightened of, and finding 100 other players camping it, does not help immersion AT ALL. Instances make places seem more like they should be in terms of crowding and activity. Finishing up a dungeon and seeing some bouncing elf run around the room jumping like a madman certainly doesn't get me in the mood. I can perfectly understand the argument for instances making you disconnected from the world, but well... i think its a small price to pay for people ruining it far more often.
Bigger dungeons - I would like to see such things but dont think size has anything to do with immersion particularly. Though i suppose 'getting lost' in one, which could only happen in a large size, would certainly help with the feeling. So I guess i still agree in some part.
Quests are tedius - Quests are story, and story is key in immersion, so yeahhhhhh. I blame this all on a focus towards graphics and less on story in this day and age. There are older rpgs out there with excellent stories... planescape torment was one of my favorites. Really drew you in and made you care about the characters. Until we get over the obsession with visuals I don't see how anyone is going to put in the necessary time to make great stories again. We are left with the tacked on collection and kill quests. If not better stories that people care about, than certainly something more dynamic.
No quest logs - Hehe... with my memory i dont know if i could handle this one. I think this is one case where I wouldnt be able to give up the convienance. But i think this is in large part due to the fact we have so many simultaneous quests. A big long list of 20+ usually. If we only focused on one or two at a time, this wouldnt be such a huge issue. But we all like to grab all the available ones in the area and do them in the most efficient manner possible.
Thotbot - Confused on this one, you talk about making things harder and more complex but than say you want things easy so you dont have to use outside information sources. The problem here is not with the games, its with the players. But its a problem that wont go away. People that want advantages will meta-game to get those advantages. That means guide books and websites. Personally it ruins the experience for me so i never use em. But I doubt anyone else will follow me on that one.
Death penalty/xp - Real life is only meaningful because of death. Games are no different. I want my character to have some measure of meaning even if it is just a game, so it makes sense I would want a death penalty that means something, and xp that I actually earned and wasn't just given. But not everyone is looking to find this kind of meaning in a game (because its just a game). I find the meaning helps immersion which is why i like it. But it comes down to what people are looking for in their experience. Accomplishment, quick and easy, non-stop fun, meaning... I don't think you can have them all at the same time because they conflict. Its one of lifes most important lessons. Cake and eating it too, and all that.
Travel - Seems like all I do in games is run from one location to another. Only a few involve a lot of teleportation, mostly limited to bind stone warping home. To get the content to fill every travel from point a to b would be kind of unnecessary... as soon as you fill that space in between with content... it becomes the new destination! I think you might really just be saying 'no boring empty spaces'. Well thats great, though i think devs would just start making the maps a lot smaller if that were the case.
Just my random disconnected thoughts.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
I started reading your topic because I agree with its title: convenience does kill immersion. But soon I saw you're too hardcore for my taste. A game made to fit your taste would appease only a small community and commercially, it would hardly succeed. It's not gonna happen, unless YOU create it. Ever thought about it?
There will always games that break immersion... having a HUD breaks immersion... a character sheet... an inventory screen... seems to me you're just nitpicking... I think one thing you're forgetting though, is that you're playing a game, and there's only so much that can be done to make it seem as if you're not. There might be ways to avoid a HUD, and typical inventory screens and things, but chances are some of them, or all of them, are just going to be unnecessary inconveniences. I know you weren't saying the things that I said break immersion but you may as well have.
Everyone has their version of their ideal game and until people themselves start making their own games many of them will never get to experience them... So unless you can play other peoples' ideal game and just accept it and enjoy it for what it is, maybe it's time for you to pick up some programming books and make your ideal game and stop expecting other people to go out of their way to please you.
What you want is not what I want and probably not what 99% of the gaming population want.
1) I like instancing.
2) small dungeons are good. You can always go to the harder one. I have only 2 hours a nite and I want to be able to finish it.
3) I *like* safe zones. In fact, I seldom play PvP and don't want to deal with Pkers.
4) I like lots of quests. It give me incentive to go around zones instead of killing at the "optimal" grinding site. And quest log is a god send. Who want to write down all the stuff?
5) I love throbott and Allakhazam. It helps to plan my play time so I don't have to waste my precious play time wandering around.
In short, you are ranting about features that many people like. And while I completely support you right to rant, there is a reason why all these things have become almost standard .... lots of people like them.
I highly doubt the industry will go backwards and start to cater to the few hardcore gamers. May be you can find a niche game that can do that but don't expect that next $50M AAA title to do so.
no lfg: I like a good looking for group interface. One of the strengths of Everquest was the ability to find people to fill the gaps in your group. One of the weaknesses of World of Warcraft was you could hunt all day in an area appropriate to your level and never see enough people from your faction to form a group, Forming a balanced group with the skills needed to hunt in the dungeon in that area was even more unlikely. In WoW toons wasted hours in the main city waiting for a group for a dungeon that had content appropriate for their class and level.
Instances are antisocial. I disagree. I have done more grouping in games that had instances than in games that had no instances.
Bigger dungeons: Whether or not big dungeons work in practice depends on how they are implemented. It is hard these days to find a group of people that has the time to do a big dungeon crawl if you have to fight your way to the end. This is particularly the case where mobs respawn behind you and there is no easy way replace group members that had to leave. Over half of my dungeon runs in WoW were aborted half way through because people had to leave.
Quests are tedious! Quests can be lots of fun. Lots of people love them. In a good game, quests are optional. They are there for people who chose to do them because they like them.
NO questlogs! NO "accepting" quests. I like quest logs. I used to do paper based quest logs when Zork was a text based game. It was fun at the time. No quest logs is just tedious now and waste of paper. In a a large world with hundreds or thousands of NPC's and quests, you need some method of finding suitable quests for your toon.
Loot drops: You should be able to get appropriate loot for your toon from all mobs your level. Having particular loot drop in one location, means that people will not hunt that area if the loot is not useable or relevant to their toon. For example, try finding a healer for a dungeon that has no drops useable by healer.
Harsher death penalty: This can be good or bad depending on the game. It only works if the fights are really consistent, are skill based with nothing left to chance. It also depends on how the game handles disconnects and lag. Games that want an international customer base also have to be able to handle both long and short ping times.
Slower xp: There's nothing wrong with a slow xp rate if you have the content to match it. However, very few games have the content to match it. There needs to be content besides just grinding mobs for xp to gain the next level. Something good should happen for your toon at least once every hour. It could be a good armor or weapon drop, improved faction, completion of part of a quest, gain a skill point that you can add to your skill point pool.
Real travel: I hate slow travel. Slow traveI is not tedious in a game where you never need to go back to previously visited areas and never need to travel to town to sell or resupply. Slow travel is important in areas where travel time for reinforcements and planned attacks are a necessary part of the overall tactics or strategy. Most large game worlds need some form of fast travel or it just becomes tedious.
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No offense but who are you to be telling game developers what they should or shouldn't be doing? At the most you are a paying customer to them, but there are millions of the same thing that aren't so picky.
You can spend all day ranting to other MMO players, and maybe a very small number of professional developers (who doubtfully have a say in doing anything about your ideas) in vain or you could do something productive to bring your ideas to life, e.g. start making your own game.
Even if there are things that will inevitably break immersion, this is hardly a reason to ignore the issue entirely. Developers should do all the could to make the game immersive. Even if there are immersion-breaking elements, the game's immersiveness is judged on the whole.
What you seek as immersion, as enjoyment, others might seen as nuisance or annoyance. From the story we learn through WoW, it appears that there is a sizable market for casual playing games. Games that are not hardcore. For those players who only play once in a while, hardcore, heavy penalty, 24/7 may not be immersion. Long travelling routes on foot might be a negative factor, while deep dungeons would be too much for those who can only afford an hour a day on and off afk.
As you have already indicated, what you sought would be a market niche. Developers throwing out a big budget will generally not restrict their products to just a small handful of subscribers however loyal. There surely will be a few small developers willing to bet a small budget to meet your tastes, but that means you have to content yourself with a small selection of games, if any.
Wow, your post is long and I plan to study it in further detail, but your paragraph on eliminating instances and making bigger dungeons made me stop right there and respond. I couldn't agree with you more. Instances ruin immersion. So, if that's the case, the solution must be to increase the size of dungeons to reduce the chance of overly camped areas. I know that's not easy, but this is your job devs. This is what you're getting paid to do. Make dungeons as far as the eye can see. Make it so if you go into one, your character has to celebrate a birthday or two down there. Just when you thought you've made a dungeon so big, it has nowhere else to go, make it bigger. If you happen to pass a party along the way, get a good look at their faces because you shouldn't be running into them again for a long time.
Everyone can rant here, so can the OP. This place provides a less "commercially sponsored" arena for view exchanges and for brainstorming. The OP has his unique preference which you may or may not agree with, but shouting him off the stage is not conducive to discussion, which is the blood and life of these forums.
So far as the OP conducts his ranting in a rational and well mannered form, we should welcome him and all his views. I see no abuses from the OP, did you see any?
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Similiar, it is silly to make long dungeon and then log out at safe spots. It is impossible to ask your group mates to all schedule their play time for you in this dungeon again.
It is MUCH better to make many short dungeons than few large ones so you can finish and move onto the next one (may be with another group) next time.
I am a casual and I found most of your ideas unworkable. Short dungeons, instancing, quests are exactly the right way to go for casuals.
To the OP: Build it and I'll gladly play it. I'll also bring about 22 close friends who are also getting really tired of MMOG's. (Sorry, there's no RPG in most of these games anymore.)
But sadly MMO's aren't built for adventurers anymore. Seems the new generation of MMO players also can't play a game without having a website that distills everything down to it's most basic statistics. Is it truly fun to play a game where nothing is a surprise, no thrill of discovery, of... adventure? Most can't even figure out how to build their own character and have to rely on templates - then shunning anyone who doesn't also follow the FoTW template for their class.
I think the last game I played that I truly felt I had adventure in was... Asheron's Call. Since then the technology improves but the worlds get smaller and smaller - more like a thinly veiled theme parks than true wilderness. (Not counting EvE since it's in a different genre than the OP)
I guess this is what the mainstream gaming crowd wants. Odd, I called myself a gamer before most of these people were born, now they dictate the crap we have to put up with. Lore written by a 8th grader, boss fights out of platform games, glowy sparkly crap everywhere, shortcuts and hand holding for everything. Feh.
Thank god for EvE and it's ability to scare away the idiots early on.
Sad to hear about Ryzom. Great game really and a stellar community.