Its the same reason a tiny insignifican't portion of movie lovers long for the days of silent movies because they thought they were more entertaining;) They might've been really great way back when, but by todays standards, quite boring, overly acted and not all that interesting to watch, much like original MMOs.
I was there from the begining and do not wish for one second that we all make an about face and go back to what UO and EQ were. The IDEAS were fresh. The people were more enthusiastic. Everything seemed so new. But the games were utter garbage from a technical, gameplay and design standpoint compared to today. Its the people, the common understanding we had and memories that some people want again. Personally I got all of that out of WOW because I played with like minded people who came from all of that. We just adapted to a newer game and brought those experiences with us. We certainly didn't go into the game with a bitchy, elitst attitude that far too many MMORPG.comers have. No wonder they can't find fun in newer MMOs. Who wants to play with people with that kind of attitude? They complain that the communities aren't like the used to be. Maybe, just maybe, its you and not the community. I never had a problem finding great people to play with in WOW or LOTR. You need great people to play a MMO with or else its a bore.
Also remember. Most people who post here are burned out, bitter gamers, generally angry that time and most developers have passed them by. Its a very tough situation to ponder...complete insignificance when you used to have it all. Luckily, I've easily adapted to newer MMOs, still have a blast and welcome the future and refinement of the genre.
On top of that...life moves on. Some people grow up. I can't for the life of me imagine doing what I used to do 9 or 10 yrs ago. With a family, kids and a lot more responsibility, I can't dedicate the time or effort that was required to get anything out of UO or EQ. I NEED convenience and fun. My time is too valuable now to go looking for it or waiting a few months until the game decides to get fun. To me, the people who played back then and want games to revert to that style of play are still living with that same life style and/or havn't quite grown up yet.
Classic problem, but large mindless companies are unable to create such games. They want to create something PvP-only, and they screw it up (Fury). Great concept, but large companies are still aiming for the mindless grinders, who pay to play anything as long as their friends do.
Our (yes, I share the same problem) best hope is to wait for either a new title, Darkfall or Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping Guild Wars will become similar to what you want. Guild Wars 1 was new in it's genre, I think we can expect some goodies van Guild Wars 2 too. Such as The Rift, the world PvP area... GW2 isn't all PvP to satisfy the other customers, but if they do this right.. It'll become incredible.
And most of the things you've said, are all about realism! Something I've been dying to see for a long, long time... They communicate while standing near each other.. That's logical... But they contact pretty much the same way when they're all across the continent! Or you can't use certain equipment till level 20... So if I'm not of a certain age, I can't hold a certain type of weapon in my hand?
That and much more... Too lazy to write it all down at this moment.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
If you scroll down to my second long post on the first page i describe one system that could be used to make travel interesting. Secondly, as I said in the original post, games should be designed to be smaller horizontally with most of the content restricted to dungeons. This would restrict the size of the "overland" world relatively small so running between villages wouldn't take hours. Games games should be designed so that people aren't FORCED to move from place to place, but rather given the option. As i've said in previous responses (it bears repeating), a single village/area should be designed around a story rather than a level range. Theoretically, a single village could easily be surrounded by a lot of content for nearly all levels just by developing several dungeons in a rough circle around it. Adding in my concept about dynamic zones (separate versions of areas that players enter depending on whether or not they've completed certain objectives) it's not hard to conceive how a game could be made more compact. Finally, i'm not advocating absolutely no teleporting, because teleporting, after all, could be easily presented as a natural part of the world. I'd advocate a few isolated teleportation systems that each connected two to three points rather than a single network that connects everything to everything.
I'd just like to see a game where a sense of the world's geography is an important part of the gameplay. And adding in maps will deprive every player this immersion because it's human tendency to use the options available to you. In my experience, using a map prevents you from looking at the actual world to determine your location. In everquest i'd use landmarks to determine my location but I can't say the same for WoW and Vanguard which both have maps.
Some good points. These are some of the more subtle areas that (IMO) MMO's have over looked.
I didn't read through this entire post, so sorry if I repeat something, but I just wanted to comment on the two issues here.
First of all: convenience. I think we're all guilty of wanting convenience at some point or another in an MMO. But, in the long run it really can kill immersion by detaching you from the game world. In fact, every little convenience in an MMO detaches you from the game world, if only a little bit.
Icons over quest givers heads? Now you dont have to talk to them or remember names or pay attention to any story or lore, just click on that guy with the floating neon sign. Maps with GPS? Convenient when you're in a hurry, but can anyone actually navigate their way through the game world anymore or do thay just follow the dot. UI's with more meters and flashing lights than NASA mission control? Come on, this is the exact opposite of elegance or subtlety and a perfect example of being detached from the game or the action.
Next, adventure. No, current MMO's are not about adventure. To have adventure you have to have some surprises, dynamic events, mystery...again, all things that current MMO's are lacking. Everything is scripted and predictable because 1) its easier to build those games (apparently) 2) some players don't like to think or be challenged...ever.
some really good ideas have been aired inthis thread and one day a game designer will come along that will develop such a game.
Already there is a call for this type of a game instead of the rehash of current type of game we are getting now. That is why a lot of us are getting bored and fed up with the games currently out there, as if you played one you have more or less played them all.
Some original thinking, as displayed by the OP, needs to be done by the designers to drag us forward, as we are currently stuck in a rut. AOE and WAR are what are on the horizon but i fear they are more of the same.
I am sure it will happen one day, hope it will be soon!
You're waiting for Darkfall my friend, just like all the rest of us who value an actual deep game that takes some skill and isn't a direct copy of the WoW/EQ formula.
Maybe Earthrise will fulfill some of what your after too. I'm checking that one out on it's release, as well.
Really, really liked the non-existent global chat channels point you have. That would go a long way in re-creating a truly immersive title and add to it's difficulty. (ie- Your domain is only as far as you can see.)
I'd add that the 'fog of war' only reveals 'exactly' where you've been on any given map.(ie- Not, as far as you can see, but only where you've planted your feet.)
Keep the option of the 1st/3rd player mode views at players discretion.
A class-less, skill based character development arc and you'd have my consumer loyalty(cash) for over a years subscription.
...Unlike, all the other titles I've tried, beta'd/launched and left, since the SWG:NGE with the exception of EVE.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
The terminology used on this thread is interesting.
'Immersion' usually refers to 'Realism' & whether it is possible to almost forget you are playing a game. It's odd that people latch on to specific things as destroying 'Immersion' yet disregard others.
I can remember an early 'Vanguard Development Parody' where they were ridiculing how 'Hard Core' it would allegedly be using a bogus description of the 'Proposed Eating System'. 'Eating' was a skill that had to be learned & required the correct equipment plus 'Combo Moves' to get the full nutritional benefit. It was obviously silly, but had a serious point in that much of the pre-release hype seemed to be trying to take the moral high ground by claiming 'Ultra Realism'.
If 'Instantaneous Travel' is so damaging for 'Immersion', then why isn't the fact that MMO's never actually show your character eating? When nature take it's course a few hours later, shouldn't you need to find a bathroom or at least some bushes? Similarly, why aren't players who haven't had the benefit of magical healing covered in bandages & scars? After a long days fighting, why don't you have to spend time repairing your clothes or at the very least washing them? When you 'camp', where do you go? Surely if you logged out in the wilderness, you could get attacked whilst you were offline. In 'Pen & Paper RPGs' time literally stops until the next session but in MMOs it does not.
It's easy for separate people to pick on things that break their 'Immersion', but it's all subjective really.
The other term that is curious is 'Hard Core' as if it is equivalent to 'Difficulty Level'. A game that is too unforgiving is not likely to last long because most people play games for enjoyment. Why follow a bad day at work with an equally frustrating gaming session? Comments like 'Players should be forced to do X' are strange because unlike in the 'Real World', people can always decide not to play any more.
For example, if there is no 'Global Chat' & no 'Instantaneous Travel' then players might spend hours travelling only to find that there is no-one to group with. When people want to arrange to meet friends & guild members they will be forced to use things like MSN & Skype or forum notice boards which are not exactly great for 'Immersion' either.
After death in the 'Real World' there are no second chances, but most 'MMOs' let you come back for more. Having said that, if you can potentially lose things you spent months earning in the process, why bother. If one mistake can cost you months of work then it really is too much like real life, which is why MMOs have moved away from those sorts of systems. I looked up 'Darkfall' & it seemed to have a system where high level characters could behave like 'School Bullies from Hell', killing weaker characters & stealing all their stuff. When 'Darkfall' does eventually get released, I bet that doesn't last long.
To be honest though, the main 'Immersion Breakers' for me are people who behave anti-socially & speak in buzz words like 'DPS' rather than english, many of whom see themselves as 'Hard Core'.
Just my opinions anyway & I respect other people's right to have theirs.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Game companies have to create convenience for the player who
1. Works 4000 hours a week.
2. Never has time to play.
3. Wants to play 30 minutes a night and do everything in 1 night.
4. Logs into their 16 accounts 2 times a month.
5. Wants to play solo their entire time all the way to something called "endgame".
6. Wants this thing called "endgame".
7. Wants the best items with the least effort.
8. Wants to be able to travel anywhere in the game within 5 seconds.
9. Doesn't want to come in contact with another player.
10. Wants to max out skills in the least amount of time possible.
11. Wants to be able to solo everything in the game, even bosses.
Apparently this type of player is majority so they have to make sure the game meets all the above requirements. Did I miss anything?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Game companies have to create convenience for the player who 1. Works 4000 hours a week. 2. Never has time to play. 3. Wants to play 30 minutes a night and do everything in 1 night. 4. Logs into their 16 accounts 2 times a month. 5. Wants to play solo their entire time all the way to something called "endgame". 6. Wants this thing called "endgame". 7. Wants the best items with the least effort. 8. Wants to be able to travel anywhere in the game within 5 seconds. 9. Doesn't want to come in contact with another player. 10. Wants to max out skills in the least amount of time possible. 11. Wants to be able to solo everything in the game, even bosses. Apparently this type of player is majority so they have to make sure the game meets all the above requirements. Did I miss anything?
Unfortunately no.
That's the hard truth, Companies want to make money and the above category of players are the majority, so they will provide the biggest income.
Problem is that companies should learn how to diversify their games instead of just looking for the Holy Graal (WoW).
Take SoE, how comes that a company that has 6 active MMORPG don't cater for the "Core" RPG player (note i am not using the hardcore word), those players that like the RPG element of the MMORPG.
They have Vanguard that come close, but that game is still half baked and it will be NGEed pretty soon.
Of course you have to produce mainstream products, but you can produce also niche products and make money out of it.
Take music, of course PoP, Rock, Rap, take the big chunks of the Music pie, but Metal, Classic and other minor genres make good money too.
Why can it happens in the MMORPG sector?
Developers have to forget about WoW, they need to get back to the drawing board and start from scratch with new ideas, that's the way forward to make money........being O.R.I.G.I.N.A.L.
Problem is that companies should learn how to diversify their games instead of just looking for the Holy Graal (WoW).
Take SoE, how comes that a company that has 6 active MMORPG don't cater for the "Core" RPG player (note i am not using the hardcore word), those players that like the RPG element of the MMORPG.
They have Vanguard that come close, but that game is still half baked and it will be NGEed pretty soon.
Of course you have to produce mainstream products, but you can produce also niche products and make money out of it.
There are two possible explanations. One is that they don't know better and they have no idea what "core" RPGers want. I do not believe this it is the explanations because a) SoE has been in this business for 10 years and b) there are plenty of QQing on plenty of forums for them to be completely ignorant about.
The more plausible explanation is that this mythical "core" RPG group is too small to be of any consequences and cannot even support few games. Eve is doing an admirable job of catering to this audience and may be it has take them all up.
Looking at how hardcare UO & EQ are, hardcore ideas have been tried before and they don't take hold. That should tell you something.
Close your eyes and forget about the graphics (old 2d version rlz)
Complete agreement here, UO is the only MMORPG I could play days on end and could feel totally immersed in the game. Sadly, the AoS expansion totally robbed it of its former glory. Although it is not what it once was it is still the best you'll get as far what a real MMORPG should be. I could write an essay on how is superior in its RPG elements to other games. I have yet to see a game in the same caliber and I've tried it all (WoW, GW, EQ, DaoC, Diablo, etc).
The major point you mention is spot on, it is where I feel mainstream MMORPGs fail in delivering an immersive environment because of things such as:
Global chatting, linear gameplay, instances, teleporters, no death penalties, etc. These all take away from important roleplaying elements. Instead of actually having to make friends and converse to form a party you just spam the chat with some obnoxious message "NEED HIGH LVL HEALER PARTY FOR DUNGEON"; instead of doing your own thing and setting your own goals, you're just following the linear story mode or completing the linear quests the game has set up. Why so many modern MMORPGs end up being one-hit wonders is because all there is to do is get the best equipment and reach the highest level, and imo it is because these are not the main goals in UO that has allowed it to last as long as it did and still have a dedicated playerbase. You still strive to be better in UO, but it isn't done with the systematic feel that I can't help but get when playing other MMORPGs.
I can't speak on the current conditions of how UO is now since I quit back in '04, but to anyone who hasn't tried it, bouncing from RPG to RPG and perhaps looking for something a bit different, it is definitely worth a shot.
So traded immersion for 12 hotbars (all macroed); 2 chat screens (divided into tabbed channels between chat and guild, too); and 5+ stat indicators; and the all end immersion killer, voice chat with sound fonts, now?
Immersion in MMOs is like trying to eat a hot dog at the baseball game in solitude. It's basically MySpace with some spells thrown in.
Fast food for the masses.
Case in point: this illustrates what "immersion" is in MMOs. Too many buttons and the UI is a rat's nest? Design your own!
Meh, I don't think you'd have many subscribers to a game like that. UO and EQ were the only things in town at the time, but people simply gravitated towards easier gameplay as soon as it was offered.
e.g. Blizzard basically looked at EQ and said to themselves "how can we do this better?". And they did. "Better" in the sense of more fun for more people, as the statistics prove. Maybe not as fun for the same people, but you win some and lose some.
In fact what you are talking about is not really an MMO, but an MMO fantasy sim. You want a certain kind of "realism" because you find that immersive. But I don't think that everyone is looking for that kind of immersion necessarily (i.e. immersion deriving from a less "compressed", more 1:1 version of reality in the game), they want a game more than they want a sim. There has to be some element of both, of course, but on the whole modern games tend towards gameplay rather than simulation and that kind of immersion.
Having said that, I personally would probably happily play a game like that. In a sense, games like that already exist in the more hardcore PWs on NWN and NWN2 servers - and you have DMs in those games to boot (which makes it ultra immersive - if you've never played an NWN or NWN2 game with a DM in which the world comes "alive" and responds to you in real time, with the DM taking control of NPCs and puppeteering them and having conversations with you, giving you clues to quests, etc., you haven't lived, it's truly an immersive experience!). The only trouble is they have tiny populations so you don't get that massive world feel.
One game i found myself utterly immersed in was Earth & Beyond.
I dont know what it was about the game but when you were cruising the space lanes with a few other ships or exploring planets and seeing little easter eggs the devs put in, well it just brought you into the game and made you feel apart of the community.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
One game i found myself utterly immersed in was Earth & Beyond. I dont know what it was about the game but when you were cruising the space lanes with a few other ships or exploring planets and seeing little easter eggs the devs put in, well it just brought you into the game and made you feel apart of the community.
I agree, Earth & Beyond was one of my favorite games. It was my 2nd MMO and my first MMO that I beta tested.
I had so much fun with that game. I wish they would make another one.
As for Eve, I just can't get into it for very long. I get to the point where I can't solo missions anymore and I don't really know how to start a group in that game. It just turns me off a little bit.
Also, the OP should look into WAR. While it won't come close to meeting all of your wants/needs for an MMO, it will come closer than most.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
While i agree that having too much UI really interferes with immersion, I have to say that immersion involves a lot more than just having a simple UI.
Immersion can't be found in MMOs. It's anti-MMO, as MMO's are Myspaces of gaming. People get on more to socialize, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 their login time. That's not immersion, that's trading MSN Messenger and AIM and Skype for an ingame chat (heck, that's even going -- it's TS/Vent even there). And even paying for it -- guys and gals get a dating service, it's cheaper, too!
Immersion is uninterrupted gameplay that best suits you. Be mind numbing lore. Chat silence. Living in the woods as a wood elf. Enjoying the view from the mountains after pwning the fortress (imagining breathing in the cold air, too).
Living the experience.
It's destroyed when Johnny gallops over in his 200plat mount, and spoils your view. Or you get a tell, "Wanta buy gold?" Or, you get to the mail, to find it's spammed by goldsellers, too. Or while tending your garden, some PvPer logins, looks around, and kills you "for fun".
I was thinking of runescape when I was reading this. However these days they are making it more mainstream. I also appreciate it might be hard to get into now. However they are bringing out a nice graphical update and fullscreen mode soon.
But yeah I suspect games like UO were like this though I could just never get into them mainly because it was just hardcore players who know a lot about the game left. If a new game came out like this I would love it!!!
Playing: Xsyon. Played: Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Most or all of the ideas have been tried and failed in the marketplace.
Immersion is only good up to a certain extent. MMOs are not world, are not real life. They are merely entertainment.
Think about why Diablo is so successful. It distill everything downs to combat fun and get rid of all the excess stuff (like stories, travel time, death penalty).
D3 is going to rock and all the MMOs are going to the more "user-friendly" direction. Thank GOD developers have some sense and don't listen to someone like you.
While i agree that having too much UI really interferes with immersion, I have to say that immersion involves a lot more than just having a simple UI.
Immersion can't be found in MMOs. It's anti-MMO, as MMO's are Myspaces of gaming. People get on more to socialize, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 their login time. That's not immersion, that's trading MSN Messenger and AIM and Skype for an ingame chat (heck, that's even going -- it's TS/Vent even there). And even paying for it -- guys and gals get a dating service, it's cheaper, too!
Immersion is uninterrupted gameplay that best suits you. Be mind numbing lore. Chat silence. Living in the woods as a wood elf. Enjoying the view from the mountains after pwning the fortress (imagining breathing in the cold air, too).
Living the experience.
It's destroyed when Johnny gallops over in his 200plat mount, and spoils your view. Or you get a tell, "Wanta buy gold?" Or, you get to the mail, to find it's spammed by goldsellers, too. Or while tending your garden, some PvPer logins, looks around, and kills you "for fun".
That's the MMO experience.
Well that's the MMO experience at its worst from the point of view of a solo immersion lover, but good immersion can easily be found in MMOs if you group with like-minded people and adventure together. It's not solo immersion, but group immersion is a fantastic experience. (Especially in instanced games like CoX, where it's very easy to get into superhero banter in a mission, for example, and to feel like a closely knit team.)
But group immersion is even better in a NWN or NWN2 Persistent World with a GM - not too many idiots floating around, and the GM makes the game world come alive just for your group.
The MMO experience can be very bad like you say, but it can also give you moments of utter fabulousness that you cant' get anywhere else, and that includes immersive moments, especially in groups.
Comments
Its the same reason a tiny insignifican't portion of movie lovers long for the days of silent movies because they thought they were more entertaining;) They might've been really great way back when, but by todays standards, quite boring, overly acted and not all that interesting to watch, much like original MMOs.
I was there from the begining and do not wish for one second that we all make an about face and go back to what UO and EQ were. The IDEAS were fresh. The people were more enthusiastic. Everything seemed so new. But the games were utter garbage from a technical, gameplay and design standpoint compared to today. Its the people, the common understanding we had and memories that some people want again. Personally I got all of that out of WOW because I played with like minded people who came from all of that. We just adapted to a newer game and brought those experiences with us. We certainly didn't go into the game with a bitchy, elitst attitude that far too many MMORPG.comers have. No wonder they can't find fun in newer MMOs. Who wants to play with people with that kind of attitude? They complain that the communities aren't like the used to be. Maybe, just maybe, its you and not the community. I never had a problem finding great people to play with in WOW or LOTR. You need great people to play a MMO with or else its a bore.
Also remember. Most people who post here are burned out, bitter gamers, generally angry that time and most developers have passed them by. Its a very tough situation to ponder...complete insignificance when you used to have it all. Luckily, I've easily adapted to newer MMOs, still have a blast and welcome the future and refinement of the genre.
On top of that...life moves on. Some people grow up. I can't for the life of me imagine doing what I used to do 9 or 10 yrs ago. With a family, kids and a lot more responsibility, I can't dedicate the time or effort that was required to get anything out of UO or EQ. I NEED convenience and fun. My time is too valuable now to go looking for it or waiting a few months until the game decides to get fun. To me, the people who played back then and want games to revert to that style of play are still living with that same life style and/or havn't quite grown up yet.
Classic problem, but large mindless companies are unable to create such games. They want to create something PvP-only, and they screw it up (Fury). Great concept, but large companies are still aiming for the mindless grinders, who pay to play anything as long as their friends do.
Our (yes, I share the same problem) best hope is to wait for either a new title, Darkfall or Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping Guild Wars will become similar to what you want. Guild Wars 1 was new in it's genre, I think we can expect some goodies van Guild Wars 2 too. Such as The Rift, the world PvP area... GW2 isn't all PvP to satisfy the other customers, but if they do this right.. It'll become incredible.
And most of the things you've said, are all about realism! Something I've been dying to see for a long, long time... They communicate while standing near each other.. That's logical... But they contact pretty much the same way when they're all across the continent! Or you can't use certain equipment till level 20... So if I'm not of a certain age, I can't hold a certain type of weapon in my hand?
That and much more... Too lazy to write it all down at this moment.
You know it, the best way to realize your dreams is waking up and start moving, never lose hope and always keep up.
Some good points. These are some of the more subtle areas that (IMO) MMO's have over looked.
I didn't read through this entire post, so sorry if I repeat something, but I just wanted to comment on the two issues here.
First of all: convenience. I think we're all guilty of wanting convenience at some point or another in an MMO. But, in the long run it really can kill immersion by detaching you from the game world. In fact, every little convenience in an MMO detaches you from the game world, if only a little bit.
Icons over quest givers heads? Now you dont have to talk to them or remember names or pay attention to any story or lore, just click on that guy with the floating neon sign. Maps with GPS? Convenient when you're in a hurry, but can anyone actually navigate their way through the game world anymore or do thay just follow the dot. UI's with more meters and flashing lights than NASA mission control? Come on, this is the exact opposite of elegance or subtlety and a perfect example of being detached from the game or the action.
Next, adventure. No, current MMO's are not about adventure. To have adventure you have to have some surprises, dynamic events, mystery...again, all things that current MMO's are lacking. Everything is scripted and predictable because 1) its easier to build those games (apparently) 2) some players don't like to think or be challenged...ever.
Darkfall, oh Darkfall... Where art thou Darkfall?
___________________
Give me a good skill based sandbox game, and i'll give you a cookie!
some really good ideas have been aired inthis thread and one day a game designer will come along that will develop such a game.
Already there is a call for this type of a game instead of the rehash of current type of game we are getting now. That is why a lot of us are getting bored and fed up with the games currently out there, as if you played one you have more or less played them all.
Some original thinking, as displayed by the OP, needs to be done by the designers to drag us forward, as we are currently stuck in a rut. AOE and WAR are what are on the horizon but i fear they are more of the same.
I am sure it will happen one day, hope it will be soon!
You're waiting for Darkfall my friend, just like all the rest of us who value an actual deep game that takes some skill and isn't a direct copy of the WoW/EQ formula.
Darkfall Travelogues!
I am all for making games that involve some actual thought on our part.
New games are awful, they take you by the hand, sod that.
I also agree no /ooc or /shout, thats annoying too.
You see someone you /say , thats enough.
Make DP an actual penalty, i.e you lose a bit o gear etc !! why not? learn to play the damn game!
winers are only easing the game makers concience, game companies want subs, they make games piss easy, so as lil johhny can get max lev in a week.
why not just have different servers with differemt rulesets? some tougher you know??
SOE nerf all games, EQ2 was fine with shard runs etc, they take it outta every server why???
give us a choice you idiots.
@ OP
Darfall...
Maybe Earthrise will fulfill some of what your after too. I'm checking that one out on it's release, as well.
Really, really liked the non-existent global chat channels point you have. That would go a long way in re-creating a truly immersive title and add to it's difficulty. (ie- Your domain is only as far as you can see.)
I'd add that the 'fog of war' only reveals 'exactly' where you've been on any given map.(ie- Not, as far as you can see, but only where you've planted your feet.)
Keep the option of the 1st/3rd player mode views at players discretion.
A class-less, skill based character development arc and you'd have my consumer loyalty(cash) for over a years subscription.
...Unlike, all the other titles I've tried, beta'd/launched and left, since the SWG:NGE with the exception of EVE.
* Life is not black or white, it's shades of grey. But, at it's best/worst, it hints at 32bit color. -Me (a.k.a. RuthlessTimes)
* I do not need to know how to make a better game than you. I just need to know how to cancel my subscription. -Antarious(a slight misquote but the sentiment remains)
The terminology used on this thread is interesting.
'Immersion' usually refers to 'Realism' & whether it is possible to almost forget you are playing a game. It's odd that people latch on to specific things as destroying 'Immersion' yet disregard others.
I can remember an early 'Vanguard Development Parody' where they were ridiculing how 'Hard Core' it would allegedly be using a bogus description of the 'Proposed Eating System'. 'Eating' was a skill that had to be learned & required the correct equipment plus 'Combo Moves' to get the full nutritional benefit. It was obviously silly, but had a serious point in that much of the pre-release hype seemed to be trying to take the moral high ground by claiming 'Ultra Realism'.
If 'Instantaneous Travel' is so damaging for 'Immersion', then why isn't the fact that MMO's never actually show your character eating? When nature take it's course a few hours later, shouldn't you need to find a bathroom or at least some bushes? Similarly, why aren't players who haven't had the benefit of magical healing covered in bandages & scars? After a long days fighting, why don't you have to spend time repairing your clothes or at the very least washing them? When you 'camp', where do you go? Surely if you logged out in the wilderness, you could get attacked whilst you were offline. In 'Pen & Paper RPGs' time literally stops until the next session but in MMOs it does not.
It's easy for separate people to pick on things that break their 'Immersion', but it's all subjective really.
The other term that is curious is 'Hard Core' as if it is equivalent to 'Difficulty Level'. A game that is too unforgiving is not likely to last long because most people play games for enjoyment. Why follow a bad day at work with an equally frustrating gaming session? Comments like 'Players should be forced to do X' are strange because unlike in the 'Real World', people can always decide not to play any more.
For example, if there is no 'Global Chat' & no 'Instantaneous Travel' then players might spend hours travelling only to find that there is no-one to group with. When people want to arrange to meet friends & guild members they will be forced to use things like MSN & Skype or forum notice boards which are not exactly great for 'Immersion' either.
After death in the 'Real World' there are no second chances, but most 'MMOs' let you come back for more. Having said that, if you can potentially lose things you spent months earning in the process, why bother. If one mistake can cost you months of work then it really is too much like real life, which is why MMOs have moved away from those sorts of systems. I looked up 'Darkfall' & it seemed to have a system where high level characters could behave like 'School Bullies from Hell', killing weaker characters & stealing all their stuff. When 'Darkfall' does eventually get released, I bet that doesn't last long.
To be honest though, the main 'Immersion Breakers' for me are people who behave anti-socially & speak in buzz words like 'DPS' rather than english, many of whom see themselves as 'Hard Core'.
Just my opinions anyway & I respect other people's right to have theirs.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Game companies have to create convenience for the player who
1. Works 4000 hours a week.
2. Never has time to play.
3. Wants to play 30 minutes a night and do everything in 1 night.
4. Logs into their 16 accounts 2 times a month.
5. Wants to play solo their entire time all the way to something called "endgame".
6. Wants this thing called "endgame".
7. Wants the best items with the least effort.
8. Wants to be able to travel anywhere in the game within 5 seconds.
9. Doesn't want to come in contact with another player.
10. Wants to max out skills in the least amount of time possible.
11. Wants to be able to solo everything in the game, even bosses.
Apparently this type of player is majority so they have to make sure the game meets all the above requirements. Did I miss anything?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
An earlier poster mentioned RYZOM. Ryzom pretty much has most of the basic elements you are
requesting. I suggest you keep an eye out for when it comes back which is hopefully any time now.
Is Ryzom as fully developed as you want? -- NO but how can it be till it gets a large enough paying
player base to warrant more developemnet. Ever check out the videos on Utube?
Traveling or trekking in Ryzom is one of the more fun, artful, and hard to master game elements
in Ryzom. The radar screen which displays other entities within the range set ( 25m, 50m, ... 500m i think ) is pretty much unique to Ryzom.
And with every server reset, many creature locations change so areas that were aggro free might not now be and vice versa.
Someone said something about no games having hundreds of creatures in an area? well Ryzom sure did or at least sure felt like it to me!
I could go on for hours but think I'l go watch more Ryozm videos.
Unfortunately no.
That's the hard truth, Companies want to make money and the above category of players are the majority, so they will provide the biggest income.
Problem is that companies should learn how to diversify their games instead of just looking for the Holy Graal (WoW).
Take SoE, how comes that a company that has 6 active MMORPG don't cater for the "Core" RPG player (note i am not using the hardcore word), those players that like the RPG element of the MMORPG.
They have Vanguard that come close, but that game is still half baked and it will be NGEed pretty soon.
Of course you have to produce mainstream products, but you can produce also niche products and make money out of it.
Take music, of course PoP, Rock, Rap, take the big chunks of the Music pie, but Metal, Classic and other minor genres make good money too.
Why can it happens in the MMORPG sector?
Developers have to forget about WoW, they need to get back to the drawing board and start from scratch with new ideas, that's the way forward to make money........being O.R.I.G.I.N.A.L.
The more plausible explanation is that this mythical "core" RPG group is too small to be of any consequences and cannot even support few games. Eve is doing an admirable job of catering to this audience and may be it has take them all up.
Looking at how hardcare UO & EQ are, hardcore ideas have been tried before and they don't take hold. That should tell you something.
Complete agreement here, UO is the only MMORPG I could play days on end and could feel totally immersed in the game. Sadly, the AoS expansion totally robbed it of its former glory. Although it is not what it once was it is still the best you'll get as far what a real MMORPG should be. I could write an essay on how is superior in its RPG elements to other games. I have yet to see a game in the same caliber and I've tried it all (WoW, GW, EQ, DaoC, Diablo, etc).
The major point you mention is spot on, it is where I feel mainstream MMORPGs fail in delivering an immersive environment because of things such as:
Global chatting, linear gameplay, instances, teleporters, no death penalties, etc. These all take away from important roleplaying elements. Instead of actually having to make friends and converse to form a party you just spam the chat with some obnoxious message "NEED HIGH LVL HEALER PARTY FOR DUNGEON"; instead of doing your own thing and setting your own goals, you're just following the linear story mode or completing the linear quests the game has set up. Why so many modern MMORPGs end up being one-hit wonders is because all there is to do is get the best equipment and reach the highest level, and imo it is because these are not the main goals in UO that has allowed it to last as long as it did and still have a dedicated playerbase. You still strive to be better in UO, but it isn't done with the systematic feel that I can't help but get when playing other MMORPGs.
I can't speak on the current conditions of how UO is now since I quit back in '04, but to anyone who hasn't tried it, bouncing from RPG to RPG and perhaps looking for something a bit different, it is definitely worth a shot.
Some company should hire the OP!!!
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So traded immersion for 12 hotbars (all macroed); 2 chat screens (divided into tabbed channels between chat and guild, too); and 5+ stat indicators; and the all end immersion killer, voice chat with sound fonts, now?
Immersion in MMOs is like trying to eat a hot dog at the baseball game in solitude. It's basically MySpace with some spells thrown in.
Fast food for the masses.
Case in point: this illustrates what "immersion" is in MMOs. Too many buttons and the UI is a rat's nest? Design your own!
www.eq2interface.com/downloads/full4710.jpg
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
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Meh, I don't think you'd have many subscribers to a game like that. UO and EQ were the only things in town at the time, but people simply gravitated towards easier gameplay as soon as it was offered.
e.g. Blizzard basically looked at EQ and said to themselves "how can we do this better?". And they did. "Better" in the sense of more fun for more people, as the statistics prove. Maybe not as fun for the same people, but you win some and lose some.
In fact what you are talking about is not really an MMO, but an MMO fantasy sim. You want a certain kind of "realism" because you find that immersive. But I don't think that everyone is looking for that kind of immersion necessarily (i.e. immersion deriving from a less "compressed", more 1:1 version of reality in the game), they want a game more than they want a sim. There has to be some element of both, of course, but on the whole modern games tend towards gameplay rather than simulation and that kind of immersion.
Having said that, I personally would probably happily play a game like that. In a sense, games like that already exist in the more hardcore PWs on NWN and NWN2 servers - and you have DMs in those games to boot (which makes it ultra immersive - if you've never played an NWN or NWN2 game with a DM in which the world comes "alive" and responds to you in real time, with the DM taking control of NPCs and puppeteering them and having conversations with you, giving you clues to quests, etc., you haven't lived, it's truly an immersive experience!). The only trouble is they have tiny populations so you don't get that massive world feel.
One game i found myself utterly immersed in was Earth & Beyond.
I dont know what it was about the game but when you were cruising the space lanes with a few other ships or exploring planets and seeing little easter eggs the devs put in, well it just brought you into the game and made you feel apart of the community.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
I agree, Earth & Beyond was one of my favorite games. It was my 2nd MMO and my first MMO that I beta tested.
I had so much fun with that game. I wish they would make another one.
As for Eve, I just can't get into it for very long. I get to the point where I can't solo missions anymore and I don't really know how to start a group in that game. It just turns me off a little bit.
Also, the OP should look into WAR. While it won't come close to meeting all of your wants/needs for an MMO, it will come closer than most.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
Immersion can't be found in MMOs. It's anti-MMO, as MMO's are Myspaces of gaming. People get on more to socialize, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 their login time. That's not immersion, that's trading MSN Messenger and AIM and Skype for an ingame chat (heck, that's even going -- it's TS/Vent even there). And even paying for it -- guys and gals get a dating service, it's cheaper, too!
Immersion is uninterrupted gameplay that best suits you. Be mind numbing lore. Chat silence. Living in the woods as a wood elf. Enjoying the view from the mountains after pwning the fortress (imagining breathing in the cold air, too).
Living the experience.
It's destroyed when Johnny gallops over in his 200plat mount, and spoils your view. Or you get a tell, "Wanta buy gold?" Or, you get to the mail, to find it's spammed by goldsellers, too. Or while tending your garden, some PvPer logins, looks around, and kills you "for fun".
That's the MMO experience.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I was thinking of runescape when I was reading this. However these days they are making it more mainstream. I also appreciate it might be hard to get into now. However they are bringing out a nice graphical update and fullscreen mode soon.
But yeah I suspect games like UO were like this though I could just never get into them mainly because it was just hardcore players who know a lot about the game left. If a new game came out like this I would love it!!!
Playing: Xsyon.
Played:
Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Most or all of the ideas have been tried and failed in the marketplace.
Immersion is only good up to a certain extent. MMOs are not world, are not real life. They are merely entertainment.
Think about why Diablo is so successful. It distill everything downs to combat fun and get rid of all the excess stuff (like stories, travel time, death penalty).
D3 is going to rock and all the MMOs are going to the more "user-friendly" direction. Thank GOD developers have some sense and don't listen to someone like you.
Immersion can't be found in MMOs. It's anti-MMO, as MMO's are Myspaces of gaming. People get on more to socialize, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 their login time. That's not immersion, that's trading MSN Messenger and AIM and Skype for an ingame chat (heck, that's even going -- it's TS/Vent even there). And even paying for it -- guys and gals get a dating service, it's cheaper, too!
Immersion is uninterrupted gameplay that best suits you. Be mind numbing lore. Chat silence. Living in the woods as a wood elf. Enjoying the view from the mountains after pwning the fortress (imagining breathing in the cold air, too).
Living the experience.
It's destroyed when Johnny gallops over in his 200plat mount, and spoils your view. Or you get a tell, "Wanta buy gold?" Or, you get to the mail, to find it's spammed by goldsellers, too. Or while tending your garden, some PvPer logins, looks around, and kills you "for fun".
That's the MMO experience.
Well that's the MMO experience at its worst from the point of view of a solo immersion lover, but good immersion can easily be found in MMOs if you group with like-minded people and adventure together. It's not solo immersion, but group immersion is a fantastic experience. (Especially in instanced games like CoX, where it's very easy to get into superhero banter in a mission, for example, and to feel like a closely knit team.)
But group immersion is even better in a NWN or NWN2 Persistent World with a GM - not too many idiots floating around, and the GM makes the game world come alive just for your group.
The MMO experience can be very bad like you say, but it can also give you moments of utter fabulousness that you cant' get anywhere else, and that includes immersive moments, especially in groups.