Frankly after the fiasco over the UK allocation of the CE and that retailers were taking pre-orders for something that they knew that they wouldn't get I am now so ticked off that I am tempted to say hang it all and I won't bother with the game now, especially if I can't get a CE from somewhere else.
Thats not really Mythic's fault that Euro Retailers jump the gun and customers jumped right along with them. It was pretty specific on the UK Warhammer Online sight how it all works and what retailers currently have deals...but then again people aren't known for research skills on the internet.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Of course it also didn't help that Mythic themselves wern't exactly sure what was going on and on the very UK website you are reffering to they have HMV.com as their CE parnter and the March email newsletter had Play.com and GAME down.
But of course I am sure you knew that with a little internet research.
I don't know who said it but Twitch and FPS are very different.
Twitch is used for mostly space flying games. It lets you take control of the space craft and fly it around rather than point/click (think Eve). These set up controls are very different than the FPS genre controls (over the shoulder or actual 1st person). Think about it. How similar is Call of Duty 4 and a game like Vendetta Online (which uses twitch i believe?)
heh, just saw this thread... think it's kind of interesting to see all the people giving comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic, which simply asks why you will not be playing WAR. Well for one, the main reason being, I'm burned out on WoW. I'm sorry to inform you guys, but WoW the MMORPG was first. It does not take an idiot to realize that WAR is basically focusing it's aim on people playing WoW who are getting tired of it. I'm not bashing WAR... in fact, I find this extremely intelligent of them. This is probably the perfect time for them to steal away WoW customers (or at least, the time once it's released). And they are adding in some interesting stuff that seems slightly unique to its WoW counterpart, such as specific classes for each race... which when you think about it isn't really that spectacular What I can simply expect from everything given out about the product so far is that it will be a WoW2. Nothing really "new" or exciting to the next generation of MMORPGs, other than, I'll admit, seemingly great graphics. Also, the second reason being what the post author originally wrote in his/her first post. I'm just sick of the typical rock paper scissors fighting, it really gets dull after a while. One more thing I want to add about WAR's marketing plan; it'll seem good at first... considering you're merely counting population and not the overall community of players. I can expect a lot of young people to play this... which is what I'm liking about this game. It will sort of act as a magnet, especially with all this promotion for the game WAR is going through. So finally, these three main reasons are basically why I'll try to avoid WAR. I'll most likely stick to EVE... not that much seems absolutely breath-taking this year, yet I might try AoC and CoSB on their betas.
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
"Speek for yourself, I dno't make misteaks." - fyerwall
I don't know who said it but Twitch and FPS are very different.
Twitch is used for mostly space flying games. It lets you take control of the space craft and fly it around rather than point/click (think Eve). These set up controls are very different than the FPS genre controls (over the shoulder or actual 1st person). Think about it. How similar is Call of Duty 4 and a game like Vendetta Online (which uses twitch i believe?) Carry on.
That's incorrect. Twitch gaming is defined by needing to use your reflexes to best an opponent. First Person Shooters are an example of this, as are space sims where you pilot anything. Call of Duty 4 is a twitch based game, as is X-Wing (can't think of a space sim at the moment, but that's one of my favorites).
I wouldn't call WoW turn based, but it's certainly not twitch. I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere, but I just wanted to point out that twitch and fps's can certainly be the same exact thing.
heh, just saw this thread... think it's kind of interesting to see all the people giving comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic, which simply asks why you will not be playing WAR. Well for one, the main reason being, I'm burned out on WoW. I'm sorry to inform you guys, but WoW the MMORPG was first. It does not take an idiot to realize that WAR is basically focusing it's aim on people playing WoW who are getting tired of it. I'm not bashing WAR... in fact, I find this extremely intelligent of them. This is probably the perfect time for them to steal away WoW customers (or at least, the time once it's released). And they are adding in some interesting stuff that seems slightly unique to its WoW counterpart, such as specific classes for each race... which when you think about it isn't really that spectacular What I can simply expect from everything given out about the product so far is that it will be a WoW2. Nothing really "new" or exciting to the next generation of MMORPGs, other than, I'll admit, seemingly great graphics. Also, the second reason being what the post author originally wrote in his/her first post. I'm just sick of the typical rock paper scissors fighting, it really gets dull after a while. One more thing I want to add about WAR's marketing plan; it'll seem good at first... considering you're merely counting population and not the overall community of players. I can expect a lot of young people to play this... which is what I'm liking about this game. It will sort of act as a magnet, especially with all this promotion for the game WAR is going through. So finally, these three main reasons are basically why I'll try to avoid WAR. I'll most likely stick to EVE... not that much seems absolutely breath-taking this year, yet I might try AoC and CoSB on their betas.
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying WoW was the first MMORPG ever. What I should have made clear with my post was the fact that WoWs MMORPG was before WARs, not the game itself. I am aware that WoW has, mainly, made a lot of it's successes by using the features that people liked in previous successful game and combining them together (which they did very successfully, even if I hate to say it). But yes, I still stand by what I say about what WAR is trying to do. I see little new to the next generation of MMORPGs being added to WAR. RvR and TOK have been in games before, nothing special to be honest... and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of customization other than their classes or appearances, which really aren't significant changes if you ask me (appearances are preset other than gear and race, and the classes are the same, just different names if you ask me. Yet that's nothing that WAR can really help; I don't think any MMORPG will be able to break that generic class mold successfully for another couple years). Like I said, the only thing that looks like WAR will be able to get a better grip of are just improvements over things that have already been done (graphics, classes, PvP, and the likewise).
wont play it long if they nerf the hell our of everything after release like most companies do. i dont mind patching things to make them work better but making skills and abilities useless because of over nerf just pisses me off
I find it amusing that people rail against "class-based crud" as if there is some huge outcry for games that are not class-based. There is a minuscule outcry for such games, and it is centered on message boards like these. People whose votes actually count, i.e., those who vote with their dollars, seem to think class-based is just fine, thank you. Why aren't there more games without classes? Because the ones that exist don't get enough subscriptions. EVE is the exception because EVE is nothing like a traditional RPG in any sense. It's more of a strategy game.
You are so cluless. UO in it's early days was huge, because of it's system. Morrowind elder scrolls 3 was popular because of point arrangement. SWG was very popular also, but wasn't marketed correctly. Even if you go to DF website there is an out cry that the game gets released, becuase players are tired of the same old class base system.
The best PvP MMOs are built off of skills, not classes!
Hmmmm..in other words sandbox game. I seem to remember a game that goes by the name of: The Saga of Ryzom...its all the things you want, and yet.....its current future is uncertain...."someone" has bought it...but the servers are closed.
Good community there too...pvp as well...just wasn't marketted right perhaps? I think it flew under the radar of alot of folks..shame. It wasn't class based per se...you could advance in any skill direction you wanted..even make your own skills.
I never played UO, at the time ..I didn't have a large enough hard drive, UO was already a GIG in those days can you imagine. hehe
So I played the competitor and others like it over the years. Never did get around to UO...maybe should have tried it..but oh well.
Just want to comment on the various "reasons" why people won't play Warhammer.......hehe sounds as if they have had their minds made up by gossip and rumour and not actual fact.
Oh well....thats life in the game community. Some miss the boat...others don't . If you really want to know about Warhammer...I suggest going to the site and reading up on it, look at the screenies and all the videos.....before making any assumptions. Then put forward an ...."informed" opinion.
I realize thats too much to ask of some people...I mean reading..omg can't do that..thats too much effort.
Anyways good luck in whatever game it is...that makes you happy...thats the bottom line anyways..isn't it?
heh, just saw this thread... think it's kind of interesting to see all the people giving comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic, which simply asks why you will not be playing WAR. Well for one, the main reason being, I'm burned out on WoW. I'm sorry to inform you guys, but WoW the MMORPG was first. It does not take an idiot to realize that WAR is basically focusing it's aim on people playing WoW who are getting tired of it. I'm not bashing WAR... in fact, I find this extremely intelligent of them. This is probably the perfect time for them to steal away WoW customers (or at least, the time once it's released). And they are adding in some interesting stuff that seems slightly unique to its WoW counterpart, such as specific classes for each race... which when you think about it isn't really that spectacular What I can simply expect from everything given out about the product so far is that it will be a WoW2. Nothing really "new" or exciting to the next generation of MMORPGs, other than, I'll admit, seemingly great graphics. Also, the second reason being what the post author originally wrote in his/her first post. I'm just sick of the typical rock paper scissors fighting, it really gets dull after a while. One more thing I want to add about WAR's marketing plan; it'll seem good at first... considering you're merely counting population and not the overall community of players. I can expect a lot of young people to play this... which is what I'm liking about this game. It will sort of act as a magnet, especially with all this promotion for the game WAR is going through. So finally, these three main reasons are basically why I'll try to avoid WAR. I'll most likely stick to EVE... not that much seems absolutely breath-taking this year, yet I might try AoC and CoSB on their betas.
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying WoW was the first MMORPG ever. What I should have made clear with my post was the fact that WoWs MMORPG was before WARs, not the game itself. I am aware that WoW has, mainly, made a lot of it's successes by using the features that people liked in previous successful game and combining them together (which they did very successfully, even if I hate to say it). But yes, I still stand by what I say about what WAR is trying to do. I see little new to the next generation of MMORPGs being added to WAR. RvR and TOK have been in games before, nothing special to be honest... and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of customization other than their classes or appearances, which really aren't significant changes if you ask me (appearances are preset other than gear and race, and the classes are the same, just different names if you ask me. Yet that's nothing that WAR can really help; I don't think any MMORPG will be able to break that generic class mold successfully for another couple years). Like I said, the only thing that looks like WAR will be able to get a better grip of are just improvements over things that have already been done (graphics, classes, PvP, and the likewise).
1. WOW has made all of it's successes like that. It doesn't matter if they put out their MMO before WAR when their character designs are borrowed in the first place as well as the game design, and most of their concept. The difference? I'm glad people play WOW (and every other game for that matter), more people playing games means better games for all (hopefully) while you seem to care that someone chooses to use their own design and concepts that they have not changed in 25 years and make comments like "WoW2". Here, since you missed it the first time...
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
2. Every (yes, every) game watches the market for trends, when something is losing ground, when it is dated, when advances are ready to be taken advantage of so they can release and hopefully take the lions share. WAR wants players and to say they are targeting them from any specific game is laughable at best.
3. RvR and ToK... I already discussed these, and if you bothered to research you'd see that there are major announced changes to both but instead you decide to respond to my post in excerpts.
4. There is NO such thing as "next generation mmo" it's a farce, something some self important fanboy heard a marketing exec kick out and now is drummed on and on about as if chanting it like a mantra will make it true. There are next generation consoles, NOT next generation mmos. That isn't to say there couldn't be one eventually but the fact is that there isn't now and the only one even talked about is Darkfall (not getting into its validity). Proof? Ask yourself the last mmo you saw that not only had a new features but was built with more than 50% of its design also new and not just rebuilt slightly from the games before it.. Honestly, you won't. The mmo market is a constantly evolving market that feeds off of what has been done previously if you want to see a "next gen mmo" then you are going to have to have a company that has access to unreleased tech, a huge staff, and an even larger bankroll that does not care about the losses likely incurred.
I've yet to see that feature in any game, maybe I've missed it somehow but it is new to me. Some people like to play the exact same character as everyone else but many (myself included) do not and will gladly take any chance to set themselves apart. They also have different head options, something like 22 different armor sets per class (we'll see) and the ability to dye gears, this adds up for a big chance at customization on these things alone (Sure, it's not CoX but I'll not be thumbing my nose).
Games borrow from the games before them, if they didn't then we'd all be still playing Hide and Seek, Hopscotch, and Hula Hoops.
Again, I'm with you, heck tbh I'm more excited at the prospect of the 40K mmo than WAR (I said it suckers! MWUAHAHAHA) but I'll give it a go and see if it is as good as they are promising (or if it is another dog turd wrapped in "oh em gee eets so gud!")
Either way, spreading misinformation about games, IPs, and companies doesn't serve any purpose other than to grow troll hair.
*EDIT* misspelled dye
"Speek for yourself, I dno't make misteaks." - fyerwall
Looked into WAR but after seeing one of the devs just yell war war war and trashtalking all other aspecs of their own mmo as they where not PvP kind of turned it for me. Cant make a game live on pvp alone, even tho its the major part of a game. Need to think of the big picture to be a good MMO or it will disappear just like many other promising mmos out there.
Right now, the only major factor taking me away from WAR is time. The release holdback is a huge blow to me Torrential
Agreed, I rearranged my life and gaming to prepare for WAR. Purchased computers and didn't start another mmorpg.... but Q4 now?
I've been so pissed that I've decided not to play. I can understand games getting pushed back but a year?
EA was on rocky ground with me to begin with. I really wanted to play because I LOVE warhammer! But if they don't even know if a game is close to release it seems like a total lack of competence at some level to me.
EDIT: Additionally I've unsubscribed from their newsletter. I urge others to do so as well.
I'll be playing WAR unless come open beta the game is unplayable. Nothing else coming out looks as promising right now and nothing thats currently out is my cup of tea.
I'm not into wow bashing but its obvious that Mystic improved the game. The Tome of Knowledge is just one of many absolutely great additions to the gameplay.
Warhammer looks too cartoon for me, i played wow and ive have enough of Orc-elfs lore,i need a game that makes you feel that your in a real world !
Nothing wrong with Warhammer, i belive that there making a Very good game !
Just that i am going to play Age of Conan .. Were mobs, just don't stand around there!! There hunting, skinning, eating and killing others around them.. Were the sound is alive and you Can feel the fear of losing your head at any given time and some of your armor and cash too..
I hope warhammer does Great ! Cause Im really and Sick OF World of Warcraft ... Because it has turn into, A Gear and Grind up lvls to just never Own anything or control any land or anything there, Not really end game for me, even Ganking got old for me, arenas and BGs are waste of my time there !
Anything got to be better then WoW even Lord of the Rings looks better! Yet that could not hold me long, i gota have PVP!
World of Warcraft has made there Huge money to just keep on making it there way, they really need to find out what players want, and set were we feel that we contol some Land..
Having ownership while your there in that world, it goes beyond the Gear and the loot, Make it Fun and we all Win and lose! Wars are over taking stuff and goes beyond killing people ! Crush them Befor you and Own There Land !
I want to fight on mounts, control Keeps, See blood splash all over the place, Knock people back, Own a Cool Mount like a Rino or Mammath Or a fast Horse, a mount that attcks too.. It just feels Right !
So i say find what makes your happy ! It' s your $15 bucks.. Send a Message by playing what you like and WHAT gives the most fun..
P.S. EA Pulled (((Earth and Beyond))) from the internet, let's hope they keep this one alive !
Was a sad day for me, i really enjoyed the game when Westwood owned Earth And Beyond, then EA join in and Killed it!
I find it amusing that people rail against "class-based crud" as if there is some huge outcry for games that are not class-based. There is a minuscule outcry for such games, and it is centered on message boards like these. People whose votes actually count, i.e., those who vote with their dollars, seem to think class-based is just fine, thank you. Why aren't there more games without classes? Because the ones that exist don't get enough subscriptions. EVE is the exception because EVE is nothing like a traditional RPG in any sense. It's more of a strategy game.
You are so cluless. UO in it's early days was huge, because of it's system. Morrowind elder scrolls 3 was popular because of point arrangement. SWG was very popular also, but wasn't marketed correctly. Even if you go to DF website there is an out cry that the game gets released, becuase players are tired of the same old class base system.
The best PvP MMOs are built off of skills, not classes!
Hmmmm..in other words sandbox game. I seem to remember a game that goes by the name of: The Saga of Ryzom...its all the things you want, and yet.....its current future is uncertain...."someone" has bought it...but the servers are closed.
Good community there too...pvp as well...just wasn't marketted right perhaps? I think it flew under the radar of alot of folks..shame. It wasn't class based per se...you could advance in any skill direction you wanted..even make your own skills.
I never played UO, at the time ..I didn't have a large enough hard drive, UO was already a GIG in those days can you imagine. hehe
So I played the competitor and others like it over the years. Never did get around to UO...maybe should have tried it..but oh well.
Just want to comment on the various "reasons" why people won't play Warhammer.......hehe sounds as if they have had their minds made up by gossip and rumour and not actual fact.
Oh well....thats life in the game community. Some miss the boat...others don't . If you really want to know about Warhammer...I suggest going to the site and reading up on it, look at the screenies and all the videos.....before making any assumptions. Then put forward an ...."informed" opinion.
I realize thats too much to ask of some people...I mean reading..omg can't do that..thats too much effort.
Anyways good luck in whatever game it is...that makes you happy...thats the bottom line anyways..isn't it?
Hard to fight with Mistick, I'm sure he remembers my "car/transportation" assumption I made about him .
Was I right? /shrug
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Comments
Frankly after the fiasco over the UK allocation of the CE and that retailers were taking pre-orders for something that they knew that they wouldn't get I am now so ticked off that I am tempted to say hang it all and I won't bother with the game now, especially if I can't get a CE from somewhere else.
Thats not really Mythic's fault that Euro Retailers jump the gun and customers jumped right along with them. It was pretty specific on the UK Warhammer Online sight how it all works and what retailers currently have deals...but then again people aren't known for research skills on the internet.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Of course it also didn't help that Mythic themselves wern't exactly sure what was going on and on the very UK website you are reffering to they have HMV.com as their CE parnter and the March email newsletter had Play.com and GAME down.
But of course I am sure you knew that with a little internet research.
I don't know who said it but Twitch and FPS are very different.
Twitch is used for mostly space flying games. It lets you take control of the space craft and fly it around rather than point/click (think Eve). These set up controls are very different than the FPS genre controls (over the shoulder or actual 1st person). Think about it. How similar is Call of Duty 4 and a game like Vendetta Online (which uses twitch i believe?)
Carry on.
WHEN DID CREATIVITY DIE
I won't be playing because it looks like just another grindfest with boring combat.
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
"Speek for yourself, I dno't make misteaks." - fyerwall
That's incorrect. Twitch gaming is defined by needing to use your reflexes to best an opponent. First Person Shooters are an example of this, as are space sims where you pilot anything. Call of Duty 4 is a twitch based game, as is X-Wing (can't think of a space sim at the moment, but that's one of my favorites).
I wouldn't call WoW turn based, but it's certainly not twitch. I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere, but I just wanted to point out that twitch and fps's can certainly be the same exact thing.
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying WoW was the first MMORPG ever. What I should have made clear with my post was the fact that WoWs MMORPG was before WARs, not the game itself. I am aware that WoW has, mainly, made a lot of it's successes by using the features that people liked in previous successful game and combining them together (which they did very successfully, even if I hate to say it). But yes, I still stand by what I say about what WAR is trying to do. I see little new to the next generation of MMORPGs being added to WAR. RvR and TOK have been in games before, nothing special to be honest... and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of customization other than their classes or appearances, which really aren't significant changes if you ask me (appearances are preset other than gear and race, and the classes are the same, just different names if you ask me. Yet that's nothing that WAR can really help; I don't think any MMORPG will be able to break that generic class mold successfully for another couple years). Like I said, the only thing that looks like WAR will be able to get a better grip of are just improvements over things that have already been done (graphics, classes, PvP, and the likewise).
wont play it long if they nerf the hell our of everything after release like most companies do. i dont mind patching things to make them work better but making skills and abilities useless because of over nerf just pisses me off
The best PvP MMOs are built off of skills, not classes!
Hmmmm..in other words sandbox game. I seem to remember a game that goes by the name of: The Saga of Ryzom...its all the things you want, and yet.....its current future is uncertain...."someone" has bought it...but the servers are closed.
Good community there too...pvp as well...just wasn't marketted right perhaps? I think it flew under the radar of alot of folks..shame. It wasn't class based per se...you could advance in any skill direction you wanted..even make your own skills.
I never played UO, at the time ..I didn't have a large enough hard drive, UO was already a GIG in those days can you imagine. hehe
So I played the competitor and others like it over the years. Never did get around to UO...maybe should have tried it..but oh well.
Just want to comment on the various "reasons" why people won't play Warhammer.......hehe sounds as if they have had their minds made up by gossip and rumour and not actual fact.
Oh well....thats life in the game community. Some miss the boat...others don't .
If you really want to know about Warhammer...I suggest going to the site and reading up on it, look at the screenies and all the videos.....before making any assumptions. Then put forward an ...."informed" opinion.
I realize thats too much to ask of some people...I mean reading..omg can't do that..thats too much effort.
Anyways good luck in whatever game it is...that makes you happy...thats the bottom line anyways..isn't it?
Cend
Yup, I also wish there were more non fantasy MMOs out, can't blame you.
However...
Exactly how long until people realize that WOW was NOT the first MMO on the market?
Oh! How about this instead?
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
Just an FYI... In pop culture prior to GW Orcs were black, just ask Mr. Tolkien. Orcs, Humans, and Squats (Dwarves) also picked up their oddly bulging and distorted caricature style bodies via GW (in D&D they were more muscular but not proportioned like we see them at GW and inturn WOW), just check the old minatures. The porcine faces? This is not a product of Blizzard but instead a combination of GW and TSR Orcish features. I enjoyed WOW at first but also got a gut full, I recognize WOW for the things that it both improved and that it damaged but I'm not going to deny other people their dues either.
Know why noone talks about it? Two reasons.
1. It has been talked about. Talked about so much that right now some pool of jelly formerly recognizable as a horse is quivering. Unfortunately that doesn't matter to some people that the proof has been laid out and yet to be refuted with anything other than "nu-uh! <insert random troll here>" and they come back saying the same garbage over and over hoping it will be true.
2. Most truly experienced gamers know that an actual clone game is either a very rare or a very common occurrence depending how you look at it. Those who say very rare say that every game builds off of previous games by significantly changing things, making improvements, and innovating to make it a new game. Those who say very common say that every game builds off of previous games and significant changes to things, makes improvements, and innovations to make it their game. Neither waste their time debating this "chicken or the egg" kind or argument as they want to play games not attack them .
Scientifically being a clone only says that something is genetically identical as it's predecessor.
I am of the first persuasion personally, I feel that as long as a game brings improvements (WOW really didn't), significant changes (I'm 50/50 concerning WOW), and/or innovation (by grabbing the best ideas out and combining them blizzard made a heck of a move, GJ) then it is a new game. Almost all games meet atleast one of those requirements to my satisfaction.
If by clone you mean WOW did everything that WAR is offering first then you would be way beyond wrong. The only thing WOW did first was to combine those features into one game, the features were around in various games prior to WOW. Not only that WAR is doing RVR with its PVP (I might be inclined to mention that DAOC had it before WAR but then again Mythic did develop DAOC and this isn't supposed to be the exact same RvR, we'll see), the customization offered, and TOK (which is actually just a significant change to the one in LoTRO) name a few. So if I had to name a clone game by that standard then WOW and Item mall games are right at the top of my list (Sure am glad I don't have to). Instead I'll say that WOW is WOW and WAR is WAR and AOC is AOC and M59 is M59 and UO is UO etc...
P.S. I have no intention of trying to sway your opinion about what you want to play as I feel that game choice is like ice cream in that everyone should find the one that best suits them and enjoy (yes, even the soy people).
P.S.S. If you don't like ice cream of some kind then you are a noob.
P.P.S.S. J/K
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying WoW was the first MMORPG ever. What I should have made clear with my post was the fact that WoWs MMORPG was before WARs, not the game itself. I am aware that WoW has, mainly, made a lot of it's successes by using the features that people liked in previous successful game and combining them together (which they did very successfully, even if I hate to say it). But yes, I still stand by what I say about what WAR is trying to do. I see little new to the next generation of MMORPGs being added to WAR. RvR and TOK have been in games before, nothing special to be honest... and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of customization other than their classes or appearances, which really aren't significant changes if you ask me (appearances are preset other than gear and race, and the classes are the same, just different names if you ask me. Yet that's nothing that WAR can really help; I don't think any MMORPG will be able to break that generic class mold successfully for another couple years). Like I said, the only thing that looks like WAR will be able to get a better grip of are just improvements over things that have already been done (graphics, classes, PvP, and the likewise).
1. WOW has made all of it's successes like that. It doesn't matter if they put out their MMO before WAR when their character designs are borrowed in the first place as well as the game design, and most of their concept. The difference? I'm glad people play WOW (and every other game for that matter), more people playing games means better games for all (hopefully) while you seem to care that someone chooses to use their own design and concepts that they have not changed in 25 years and make comments like "WoW2". Here, since you missed it the first time...
WOW is EQ 3 (or 4)
WOW is UO 18 (or something)
WOW is DAOC 5 (maybe more)
See how easy that is? Don't believe me? Check the standard game mechanics and you'll be finding a nice tidy trail all the way up to the current round of MMOs, Why? the industry is always changing, improving, and innovating (some times more than others), one company adopts something from another company and tries to make it thier own, it is the way the system works.
2. Every (yes, every) game watches the market for trends, when something is losing ground, when it is dated, when advances are ready to be taken advantage of so they can release and hopefully take the lions share. WAR wants players and to say they are targeting them from any specific game is laughable at best.
3. RvR and ToK... I already discussed these, and if you bothered to research you'd see that there are major announced changes to both but instead you decide to respond to my post in excerpts.
4. There is NO such thing as "next generation mmo" it's a farce, something some self important fanboy heard a marketing exec kick out and now is drummed on and on about as if chanting it like a mantra will make it true. There are next generation consoles, NOT next generation mmos. That isn't to say there couldn't be one eventually but the fact is that there isn't now and the only one even talked about is Darkfall (not getting into its validity). Proof? Ask yourself the last mmo you saw that not only had a new features but was built with more than 50% of its design also new and not just rebuilt slightly from the games before it.. Honestly, you won't. The mmo market is a constantly evolving market that feeds off of what has been done previously if you want to see a "next gen mmo" then you are going to have to have a company that has access to unreleased tech, a huge staff, and an even larger bankroll that does not care about the losses likely incurred.
5. Customization - http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/developmentDiaries/Trophies.php
I've yet to see that feature in any game, maybe I've missed it somehow but it is new to me. Some people like to play the exact same character as everyone else but many (myself included) do not and will gladly take any chance to set themselves apart. They also have different head options, something like 22 different armor sets per class (we'll see) and the ability to dye gears, this adds up for a big chance at customization on these things alone (Sure, it's not CoX but I'll not be thumbing my nose).
Games borrow from the games before them, if they didn't then we'd all be still playing Hide and Seek, Hopscotch, and Hula Hoops.
Again, I'm with you, heck tbh I'm more excited at the prospect of the 40K mmo than WAR (I said it suckers! MWUAHAHAHA
) but I'll give it a go and see if it is as good as they are promising (or if it is another dog turd wrapped in "oh em gee eets so gud!")
Either way, spreading misinformation about games, IPs, and companies doesn't serve any purpose other than to grow troll hair.
*EDIT* misspelled dye
"Speek for yourself, I dno't make misteaks." - fyerwall
Looked into WAR but after seeing one of the devs just yell war war war and trashtalking all other aspecs of their own mmo as they where not PvP kind of turned it for me. Cant make a game live on pvp alone, even tho its the major part of a game. Need to think of the big picture to be a good MMO or it will disappear just like many other promising mmos out there.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I wont be playing it as its totally different to WoW and I like WoW so dont think I will like a game that has nothing in common with it
Agreed, I rearranged my life and gaming to prepare for WAR. Purchased computers and didn't start another mmorpg.... but Q4 now?
I've been so pissed that I've decided not to play. I can understand games getting pushed back but a year?
EA was on rocky ground with me to begin with. I really wanted to play because I LOVE warhammer! But if they don't even know if a game is close to release it seems like a total lack of competence at some level to me.
EDIT: Additionally I've unsubscribed from their newsletter. I urge others to do so as well.
The new release date sucks big time but maybe AoC can fill in the gap for a few months fun. The world design should be bad though.
Sorry..This game looks as it was made 5 years ago atleast..
Dull, bland ...and boring same old system that every last 5 big MMO's that has been released uses..
Sure, Mythic may be the creator of DaoC, but even so..Nah..Will not play..
/Will play AoC thou..
/Junker
instanced capital cities siege
dot
I'll be playing WAR unless come open beta the game is unplayable. Nothing else coming out looks as promising right now and nothing thats currently out is my cup of tea.
Stop whining and login so I can kill you!
I won;t be playing this game for a few reasons.
1. I hate class based systems.
2. I don't like playing games with monster type player characters because that appeals to little kids.
3. It does not appear to have the the player freedoms or options I would like to see in the next game I play.
and for those who think WOW was so superior...
check wow-vs-war.com
I'm not into wow bashing but its obvious that Mystic improved the game. The Tome of Knowledge is just one of many absolutely great additions to the gameplay.
Warhammer looks too cartoon for me, i played wow and ive have enough of Orc-elfs lore,i need a game that makes you feel that your in a real world !
Nothing wrong with Warhammer, i belive that there making a Very good game !
Just that i am going to play Age of Conan .. Were mobs, just don't stand around there!! There hunting, skinning, eating and killing others around them.. Were the sound is alive and you Can feel the fear of losing your head at any given time and some of your armor and cash too..
I hope warhammer does Great ! Cause Im really and Sick OF World of Warcraft ... Because it has turn into, A Gear and Grind up lvls to just never Own anything or control any land or anything there, Not really end game for me, even Ganking got old for me, arenas and BGs are waste of my time there !
Anything got to be better then WoW even Lord of the Rings looks better! Yet that could not hold me long, i gota have PVP!
World of Warcraft has made there Huge money to just keep on making it there way, they really need to find out what players want, and set were we feel that we contol some Land..
Having ownership while your there in that world, it goes beyond the Gear and the loot, Make it Fun and we all Win and lose! Wars are over taking stuff and goes beyond killing people ! Crush them Befor you and Own There Land !
I want to fight on mounts, control Keeps, See blood splash all over the place, Knock people back, Own a Cool Mount like a Rino or Mammath Or a fast Horse, a mount that attcks too.. It just feels Right !
So i say find what makes your happy ! It' s your $15 bucks.. Send a Message by playing what you like and WHAT gives the most fun..
P.S. EA Pulled (((Earth and Beyond))) from the internet, let's hope they keep this one alive !
Was a sad day for me, i really enjoyed the game when Westwood owned Earth And Beyond, then EA join in and Killed it!
www.earthandbeyond.ca/
Good Gaming to all !
You are so cluless. UO in it's early days was huge, because of it's system. Morrowind elder scrolls 3 was popular because of point arrangement. SWG was very popular also, but wasn't marketed correctly. Even if you go to DF website there is an out cry that the game gets released, becuase players are tired of the same old class base system.The best PvP MMOs are built off of skills, not classes!
Hmmmm..in other words sandbox game. I seem to remember a game that goes by the name of: The Saga of Ryzom...its all the things you want, and yet.....its current future is uncertain...."someone" has bought it...but the servers are closed.
Good community there too...pvp as well...just wasn't marketted right perhaps? I think it flew under the radar of alot of folks..shame. It wasn't class based per se...you could advance in any skill direction you wanted..even make your own skills.
I never played UO, at the time ..I didn't have a large enough hard drive, UO was already a GIG in those days can you imagine. hehe
So I played the competitor and others like it over the years. Never did get around to UO...maybe should have tried it..but oh well.
Just want to comment on the various "reasons" why people won't play Warhammer.......hehe sounds as if they have had their minds made up by gossip and rumour and not actual fact.
Oh well....thats life in the game community. Some miss the boat...others don't .
If you really want to know about Warhammer...I suggest going to the site and reading up on it, look at the screenies and all the videos.....before making any assumptions. Then put forward an ...."informed" opinion.
I realize thats too much to ask of some people...I mean reading..omg can't do that..thats too much effort.
Anyways good luck in whatever game it is...that makes you happy...thats the bottom line anyways..isn't it?
Cend
Here's the fact War = class base PvP.
As far as my "informed" opinon. No thank you!
Hard to fight with Mistick, I'm sure he remembers my "car/transportation" assumption I made about him
.
Was I right? /shrug
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Age of Conan. The only reason you need.