MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games. that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it. I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.
Doesn't seem that moronic. Everyone knows that an online game is going to go through changes, it has to. (New user content, classes and etc.) However, the question is what consititues an excessive change. It would be like if I sold you a box with a van Gogh in it, but that box had a sentence that said "Painting may change over time." So then I come and take your van Gogh and exchange it for a painting of a woman shooting breast milk into some churchman's mouth by Juan Correa. Just putting that sentence on the outside of the box doesn't absolve them from consumer law. Think about what kind of presedence that would set if they could actually do that.
and for all this hate talk towards me and my view that legally SOE has not done anything wrong (morally is another question), not one of you can provide solid proof that it is illegal. Immoral maybe...but thats it. The sheer fact that you AGREED to the EULA which states "GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE" void any argument that you could have against legal action. Would be like signing a contract with a painter who states "Color may change during painting" and he uses 15 colors instead of one.
Proof? Many have already stated that a contract isn't binding if the conditions within that contract are egregiously unfair or the contract attempts to enforce something illegal. This should be common knowledge/sense, but I am sure easy to provide all sorts of precedent if you are unaware and can't deduce for yourself this aspect of the American legal system.
Proof? given the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still fraud. His civil liability may be limited, but it is still criminal.
MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games. that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it. I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.
Doesn't seem that moronic. Everyone knows that an online game is going to go through changes, it has to. (New user content, classes and etc.) However, the question is what consititues an excessive change. It would be like if I sold you a box with a van Gogh in it, but that box had a sentence that said "Painting may change over time." So then I come and take your van Gogh and exchange it for a painting of a woman shooting breast milk into some churchman's mouth by Juan Correa. Just putting that sentence on the outside of the box doesn't absolve them from consumer law. Think about what kind of presedence that would set if they could actually do that.
yes but no matter how drastic the changes in swg were, it was still star wars, not star trek, in fact is was more like star wars due to the classes based on star wars characters.
* shurg just pointing out that EQ2 started before NGE. I could be wrong but the argument that is made boils down to what they did with CU folowed by NGE caused and causes them more harm then good. If they would relase sub numbers anny of us might be beter able to talk about what games do well and what ones do not. With out thouse numbers for boath sides it comes down to conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
for years i have watched gaming go more and more down hill. mostly as those making the game feel they can get away with anything and do changes that the player base doesn't want.
people didn't want player killing removed in uo.
i remember $OE did some changes to eq that no one wanted.
no one in their right mind wanted the cu/nge.
and this is now happening with other games too. weapons and items get nerfed by dev's in the quest for balance. balance in games is there is no balance here is the truth. video games and mmo's come downt o one thing. the strongest will win. the side with the most people will win. and i am a winner i was on swg pre-cu before we had our system stolen.
that is why we must take $OE and la to court. that is why we must reclaim the pre-cu system and have the game rolled back to it. we must do things like this in order to make gaming better and get gaming back on track.
besides that we all know that every court in the world would side with us vets.
Originally posted by elondor MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games. that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it. I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and for all this hate talk towards me and my view that legally SOE has not done anything wrong (morally is another question), not one of you can provide solid proof that it is illegal. Immoral maybe...but thats it. The sheer fact that you AGREED to the EULA which states "GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE" void any argument that you could have against legal action. Would be like signing a contract with a painter who states "Color may change during painting" and he uses 15 colors instead of one.
Actually Miagisan advertising one service while planning to deliver another fits the criminal code definition of fraud in my jurisdiction.
To prove that this was done in court though, I would need a memo or a confession regarding directions to provide misleading information to the customers regarding the Trials of ObiWan expansion. A memo directing employees to withhold information about the NGE until after payment for the ToOW would suffice. It would indicate the intent to make a sale under false pretenses.
If I had access to a memo like this, or if people were not bound by NDAs to keep their mouths shut, this would be in court already.
The only way numerous companies in case law have been found guilty for similar issues is via the "smoking memo" piece of evidence, or via an insider's confession.
The actions that I believe took place are certainly criminal, by definition. Could I prove that to a judge or jury? Not without the evidence I've mentioned. It may exist, but I certainly don't have it in my hands.
Also, as I've mentioned previously, the EULA does not supercede the Criminal Code with regard to fraud. It's the other way around. To claim that the EULA takes precedence is simply another lie in a long history of lies told by people trying to cover up unethical behaviour.
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place. The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.
Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
Not really. Not if you follow how it has changed the market, and how it has harmed every SOE game, and how it has started to change the way all MMO companies do business. It's part of tomorrow.
If all dev companys dont change games as radically as SOE did then yes,the NGE will have done some good but its early days yet.
Time will be the only judge on this lets see if anything similar happens in say 10 years or so
Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place. The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.
Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
RE Vanguard that wasnt a SOE devolped game as you know if anything its better,no much better than it ever was while Sigil were hamfistedly coding the game,all SOE did was give them more money and forced a release date on them (mainly IMO so they could get thier hands on the game when it went tits up),but that said that game needed at least another 12 months of dev time and given Sigil had wasted $30 million of MS's money would you let them have much more time? i know i wouldnt.
MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games.
that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english
"Game Experience May Change During Online Play"
sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it.
I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The really sad part of this whole thread and the many threads that have been started before it and that will surely come after is that people just keep repeating the same exact thing. You can explain the ESRB rating thing a thousand more times and it will not change anything. The ignorance people display on these forums is frightening at times.
If the NGE was legal or not really just does not concern me. What was done is done. SOE's reputation as incompetent hacks was solidified with SWG. If someone did sue SOE and won what would it really change in the industry? Nothing at all and everyone knows it. The MMO companies would just rephrase their ULA and the battle of lawyers would go on forever.
The only real power that gamers have is to just stop paying and supporting companies like SOE. Thats really all we can do and it is the most effective and realistic approach to the problem.
and for all this hate talk towards me and my view that legally SOE has not done anything wrong (morally is another question), not one of you can provide solid proof that it is illegal. Immoral maybe...but thats it. The sheer fact that you AGREED to the EULA which states "GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE" void any argument that you could have against legal action. Would be like signing a contract with a painter who states "Color may change during painting" and he uses 15 colors instead of one.
Proof? Many have already stated that a contract isn't binding if the conditions within that contract are egregiously unfair or the contract attempts to enforce something illegal. This should be common knowledge/sense, but I am sure easy to provide all sorts of precedent if you are unaware and can't deduce for yourself this aspect of the American legal system.
Proof? given the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still fraud. His civil liability may be limited, but it is still criminal.
That is very well said. A criminal case is in fact what this whole fraud allegation is about. Having executives held accountable for their actions is more valuable to the consumer, in my view, in the long run than civil action. However, in my jurisdiction, in criminal cases where the accused benefitted financially from a crime, an order can be made to make restitution. That would be nice for those that prepaid subscriptions based on false information and were denied refunds.
MMO's are ever evolving for better or worse, it does say, when you log in that the game experience may change during online play. EVERY online game says that. if you can't accept it, then you don't need to be playing online games.
that one single line is enough to throw out any case against them, it doesn't have to be in the eula..
I have the original box sitting right in front of me, and on the FRONT COVER, it says in clear bold english
"Game Experience May Change During Online Play"
sorry if you don't like the way it turned out but it is their game not yours, no one forced you to buy it, no one forced you to continue playing it.
I mean seriously, how moronic can you be.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The really sad part of this whole thread and the many threads that have been started before it and that will surely come after is that people just keep repeating the same exact thing. You can explain the ESRB rating thing a thousand more times and it will not change anything. The ignorance people display on these forums is frightening at times.
If the NGE was legal or not really just does not concern me. What was done is done. SOE's reputation as incompetent hacks was solidified with SWG. If someone did sue SOE and won what would it really change in the industry? Nothing at all and everyone knows it. The MMO companies would just rephrase their ULA and the battle of lawyers would go on forever.
The only real power that gamers have is to just stop paying and supporting companies like SOE. Thats really all we can do and it is the most effective and realistic approach to the problem.
It is a good solution GH. I would just add that regulations regarding EULA's might make consumer exploitation more challenging for unethical companies. Why aren't you regularly ripped off by your satellite t.v. service provider? The industry is highly regulated to prevent this. Does still happen? I imagine so, but thieves generally prefer an easy target, and the MMO consumer is more vulnerable than others it would appear.
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place. The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.
Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
I was hoping someone would jump on Vanguard.
Because, as im sure you know, SOE did not release Vanguard SIGIL did. SOE bought the rights to Vanguard 5 months after it was released. I guess you can blame the guys that published Vanguard for the bad programming even though none of the programers were theirs but i find a few flaws with that.
And yes, im sure SOE will have no ability in running a in game item store. God knows no one has had any success doing that to date.
Here is the kicker, if you dont like the way SOE does business then simply dont do business with them any longer. I dont have a huge problem with them (even though they also changed EQ, im just not angry about it after years) so if they develop a new game that looks interesting i will try it out.
Ive said it once, twice, tons of times. They are just a company that makes video games.
And actually Mythic made similar style changes to DAOC which really ticked off the player base, they were just nice enough to offer the old style again where SOE has not.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers. I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money. Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you. EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS. What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
The only thing I have to say about this is:
Now that SOE has been moved from being able to hide under spider man sequels... and Smedley has a new leash holder.
Let's wait until the end of the year and see what changes if any come between now and then. Only thing I've seen so far is that planetside is consolidating down to one server on May 20th (yes funny date to do it).
Anyway.. rather than speculate myself... we could see some interesting changes.. or maybe things will just stay the way they are.
One thing for sure.. the next big movie release won't be covering SOE one way or the other. It will also be more transparant to those pissed off share holders that Stringer has had to deal with since he was appointed.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers. I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money. Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
we will never let it go.
they stole our game from us they lied to us and said the cu was their to say. they lied to us about the cu as they had showed us the curb. they have lied to us over and over again and have done things that would land people like you and me in prison.
this isn't just about $OE this is about gaming as if we let them get away with it others will do it.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers. I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money. Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you. EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS. What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
The only thing I have to say about this is:
Now that SOE has been moved from being able to hide under spider man sequels... and Smedley has a new leash holder.
Let's wait until the end of the year and see what changes if any come between now and then. Only thing I've seen so far is that planetside is consolidating down to one server on May 20th (yes funny date to do it).
Anyway.. rather than speculate myself... we could see some interesting changes.. or maybe things will just stay the way they are.
One thing for sure.. the next big movie release won't be covering SOE one way or the other. It will also be more transparant to those pissed off share holders that Stringer has had to deal with since he was appointed.
I seriously doubt SOE survives in it's current form once the inevitable review of it is completed.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers. I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money. Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
All those games you mentioned still today are recognizable from the original manual and box. SWG isn't. The NGE is totally alien to the game we bought. And yes, justice will be done when Smed has to do time with bubba in a Federal "pound me in the ass" prison, not a white collar resort prison.
Wow, just wow.
You want a guy to go to prison because he changed a video game.
And for some strange reason you seem to be under the impression that Smed is the reason all of this stuff happened. Smed is not a developer at SOE, he pays people to do that. Im sure that if his lead developer comes to him with what he says is a great idea Smed gives him the benefit since it is his career field.
Something tells me you have a better chance winding up in prison for something before Smed AND Mr George Lucas (Because it is as much his fault as it is Smeds, probably more) end up in prison because of SWG. Not saying your a criminal, just saying that the other isnt going to happen.
So lets see what we have here:
Your SWG is not going to come back
Smed is not going to go to prison, or even be fired
I guess the only reason you have left to keep up the fight is that the current version of SWG has not met its hot greasy death yet.
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored.
Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it...
Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
Comments
Doesn't seem that moronic. Everyone knows that an online game is going to go through changes, it has to. (New user content, classes and etc.) However, the question is what consititues an excessive change. It would be like if I sold you a box with a van Gogh in it, but that box had a sentence that said "Painting may change over time." So then I come and take your van Gogh and exchange it for a painting of a woman shooting breast milk into some churchman's mouth by Juan Correa. Just putting that sentence on the outside of the box doesn't absolve them from consumer law. Think about what kind of presedence that would set if they could actually do that.
Proof? given the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still fraud. His civil liability may be limited, but it is still criminal.
Doesn't seem that moronic. Everyone knows that an online game is going to go through changes, it has to. (New user content, classes and etc.) However, the question is what consititues an excessive change. It would be like if I sold you a box with a van Gogh in it, but that box had a sentence that said "Painting may change over time." So then I come and take your van Gogh and exchange it for a painting of a woman shooting breast milk into some churchman's mouth by Juan Correa. Just putting that sentence on the outside of the box doesn't absolve them from consumer law. Think about what kind of presedence that would set if they could actually do that.
yes but no matter how drastic the changes in swg were, it was still star wars, not star trek, in fact is was more like star wars due to the classes based on star wars characters.
* shurg just pointing out that EQ2 started before NGE. I could be wrong but the argument that is made boils down to what they did with CU folowed by NGE caused and causes them more harm then good. If they would relase sub numbers anny of us might be beter able to talk about what games do well and what ones do not. With out thouse numbers for boath sides it comes down to conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
this needs to happen.
for years i have watched gaming go more and more down hill. mostly as those making the game feel they can get away with anything and do changes that the player base doesn't want.
people didn't want player killing removed in uo.
i remember $OE did some changes to eq that no one wanted.
no one in their right mind wanted the cu/nge.
and this is now happening with other games too. weapons and items get nerfed by dev's in the quest for balance. balance in games is there is no balance here is the truth. video games and mmo's come downt o one thing. the strongest will win. the side with the most people will win. and i am a winner i was on swg pre-cu before we had our system stolen.
that is why we must take $OE and la to court. that is why we must reclaim the pre-cu system and have the game rolled back to it. we must do things like this in order to make gaming better and get gaming back on track.
besides that we all know that every court in the world would side with us vets.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free
Actually Miagisan advertising one service while planning to deliver another fits the criminal code definition of fraud in my jurisdiction.
To prove that this was done in court though, I would need a memo or a confession regarding directions to provide misleading information to the customers regarding the Trials of ObiWan expansion. A memo directing employees to withhold information about the NGE until after payment for the ToOW would suffice. It would indicate the intent to make a sale under false pretenses.
If I had access to a memo like this, or if people were not bound by NDAs to keep their mouths shut, this would be in court already.
The only way numerous companies in case law have been found guilty for similar issues is via the "smoking memo" piece of evidence, or via an insider's confession.
The actions that I believe took place are certainly criminal, by definition. Could I prove that to a judge or jury? Not without the evidence I've mentioned. It may exist, but I certainly don't have it in my hands.
Also, as I've mentioned previously, the EULA does not supercede the Criminal Code with regard to fraud. It's the other way around. To claim that the EULA takes precedence is simply another lie in a long history of lies told by people trying to cover up unethical behaviour.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place. The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
Not really. Not if you follow how it has changed the market, and how it has harmed every SOE game, and how it has started to change the way all MMO companies do business. It's part of tomorrow.
If all dev companys dont change games as radically as SOE did then yes,the NGE will have done some good but its early days yet.Time will be the only judge on this lets see if anything similar happens in say 10 years or so
Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
RE Vanguard that wasnt a SOE devolped game as you know if anything its better,no much better than it ever was while Sigil were hamfistedly coding the game,all SOE did was give them more money and forced a release date on them (mainly IMO so they could get thier hands on the game when it went tits up),but that said that game needed at least another 12 months of dev time and given Sigil had wasted $30 million of MS's money would you let them have much more time? i know i wouldnt.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The really sad part of this whole thread and the many threads that have been started before it and that will surely come after is that people just keep repeating the same exact thing. You can explain the ESRB rating thing a thousand more times and it will not change anything. The ignorance people display on these forums is frightening at times.
If the NGE was legal or not really just does not concern me. What was done is done. SOE's reputation as incompetent hacks was solidified with SWG. If someone did sue SOE and won what would it really change in the industry? Nothing at all and everyone knows it. The MMO companies would just rephrase their ULA and the battle of lawyers would go on forever.
The only real power that gamers have is to just stop paying and supporting companies like SOE. Thats really all we can do and it is the most effective and realistic approach to the problem.
Proof? given the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still fraud. His civil liability may be limited, but it is still criminal.
That is very well said. A criminal case is in fact what this whole fraud allegation is about. Having executives held accountable for their actions is more valuable to the consumer, in my view, in the long run than civil action. However, in my jurisdiction, in criminal cases where the accused benefitted financially from a crime, an order can be made to make restitution. That would be nice for those that prepaid subscriptions based on false information and were denied refunds.
For the thousandth time, this phrase has to do with the ESRB rating, not the game itself. It is impossible to give a correct rating to an MMO with real people controlling the characters and their actions. This phrase covers the ESRB requirement and NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The really sad part of this whole thread and the many threads that have been started before it and that will surely come after is that people just keep repeating the same exact thing. You can explain the ESRB rating thing a thousand more times and it will not change anything. The ignorance people display on these forums is frightening at times.
If the NGE was legal or not really just does not concern me. What was done is done. SOE's reputation as incompetent hacks was solidified with SWG. If someone did sue SOE and won what would it really change in the industry? Nothing at all and everyone knows it. The MMO companies would just rephrase their ULA and the battle of lawyers would go on forever.
The only real power that gamers have is to just stop paying and supporting companies like SOE. Thats really all we can do and it is the most effective and realistic approach to the problem.
It is a good solution GH. I would just add that regulations regarding EULA's might make consumer exploitation more challenging for unethical companies. Why aren't you regularly ripped off by your satellite t.v. service provider? The industry is highly regulated to prevent this. Does still happen? I imagine so, but thieves generally prefer an easy target, and the MMO consumer is more vulnerable than others it would appear.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers.
I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money.
Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place. The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result.
What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing. I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.
The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid significant sums for. Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.
My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game. If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.
I was hoping someone would jump on Vanguard.
Because, as im sure you know, SOE did not release Vanguard SIGIL did. SOE bought the rights to Vanguard 5 months after it was released. I guess you can blame the guys that published Vanguard for the bad programming even though none of the programers were theirs but i find a few flaws with that.
And yes, im sure SOE will have no ability in running a in game item store. God knows no one has had any success doing that to date.
Here is the kicker, if you dont like the way SOE does business then simply dont do business with them any longer. I dont have a huge problem with them (even though they also changed EQ, im just not angry about it after years) so if they develop a new game that looks interesting i will try it out.
Ive said it once, twice, tons of times. They are just a company that makes video games.
And actually Mythic made similar style changes to DAOC which really ticked off the player base, they were just nice enough to offer the old style again where SOE has not.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only thing I have to say about this is:
Now that SOE has been moved from being able to hide under spider man sequels... and Smedley has a new leash holder.
Let's wait until the end of the year and see what changes if any come between now and then. Only thing I've seen so far is that planetside is consolidating down to one server on May 20th (yes funny date to do it).
Anyway.. rather than speculate myself... we could see some interesting changes.. or maybe things will just stay the way they are.
One thing for sure.. the next big movie release won't be covering SOE one way or the other. It will also be more transparant to those pissed off share holders that Stringer has had to deal with since he was appointed.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
we will never let it go.
they stole our game from us they lied to us and said the cu was their to say. they lied to us about the cu as they had showed us the curb. they have lied to us over and over again and have done things that would land people like you and me in prison.
this isn't just about $OE this is about gaming as if we let them get away with it others will do it.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
The only thing I have to say about this is:
Now that SOE has been moved from being able to hide under spider man sequels... and Smedley has a new leash holder.
Let's wait until the end of the year and see what changes if any come between now and then. Only thing I've seen so far is that planetside is consolidating down to one server on May 20th (yes funny date to do it).
Anyway.. rather than speculate myself... we could see some interesting changes.. or maybe things will just stay the way they are.
One thing for sure.. the next big movie release won't be covering SOE one way or the other. It will also be more transparant to those pissed off share holders that Stringer has had to deal with since he was appointed.
I seriously doubt SOE survives in it's current form once the inevitable review of it is completed.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
All those games you mentioned still today are recognizable from the original manual and box.
SWG isn't. The NGE is totally alien to the game we bought.
And yes, justice will be done when Smed has to do time with bubba in a Federal "pound me in the ass" prison, not a white collar resort prison.
You want a guy to go to prison because he changed a video game.
And for some strange reason you seem to be under the impression that Smed is the reason all of this stuff happened. Smed is not a developer at SOE, he pays people to do that. Im sure that if his lead developer comes to him with what he says is a great idea Smed gives him the benefit since it is his career field.
Something tells me you have a better chance winding up in prison for something before Smed AND Mr George Lucas (Because it is as much his fault as it is Smeds, probably more) end up in prison because of SWG. Not saying your a criminal, just saying that the other isnt going to happen.
So lets see what we have here:
Your SWG is not going to come back
Smed is not going to go to prison, or even be fired
I guess the only reason you have left to keep up the fight is that the current version of SWG has not met its hot greasy death yet.
Fight on man, fight on.
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored.
Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it...
Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.