as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.
my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.
i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.
$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.
$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.
old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.
fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.
I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
there is no prehaps we will win we will win as what $OE did is break the law. what they did was imho an act that should land anyone that just did 1 line of code in prison.
and no i and my friends do own our items and our toons. i spent 90 hours working on getting jedi i did that i own that toon. if i want to it is my legal right to sell that toon. better still now i cannot sell that toon as jedi is worthless so i lost about $2k due to the nge change.
our crusade is opening eyes and showing people how bad things are in the world of gaming. and $OE is the worst of the worst.
Actually it was not your right to sell your toon, that is why EBay and Playerauctions were constantly having to remove stuff, which of course came right back on the site. Of course people did sell toon, just as they sell gold and items, but it was against the rules that you the Player agreed to.
You are a one trick pony, and people are not listening to you.
You will not get your game back.
You will not get Smed in jail.
You will not close down SOE.
You will most likely continue to rant and rave on here talking about the lawsuit that will never happen until FINALLY you get bored of it and move along.
Many times i read your posts and i think that you are actually messing around and having a fine joke of it all. Then i start to think that you really mean what you say and that is just plain sad.
A little advice for you fighing the fight. If you need a spokesperson pick someone like Suvroc before you pick this guy. I dont always agree with Suvroc but he makes sense at least.
And by the way, i would love for you guys to get your game back, it just isnt going to happen.
Actually it was not your right to sell your toon, that is why EBay and Playerauctions were constantly having to remove stuff, which of course came right back on the site. Of course people did sell toon, just as they sell gold and items, but it was against the rules that you the Player agreed to.
You are a one trick pony, and people are not listening to you. You will not get your game back.
You will not get Smed in jail.
You will not close down SOE. You will most likely continue to rant and rave on here talking about the lawsuit that will never happen until FINALLY you get bored of it and move along. Many times i read your posts and i think that you are actually messing around and having a fine joke of it all. Then i start to think that you really mean what you say and that is just plain sad. A little advice for you fighing the fight. If you need a spokesperson pick someone like Suvroc before you pick this guy. I dont always agree with Suvroc but he makes sense at least. And by the way, i would love for you guys to get your game back, it just isnt going to happen.
i made that toon there for it is my toon and i can do whatever i want with my toon.
and me and my 250k friends are not a one trirck pony as you put it and many people are listening to us. soesucks.net gets a ton of views a month thanks to wildcat telling the truth about how bad $OE screwed us and how we want our game back.
and that lawsuit will happen and soon mark my words $OE and anyone who thinks doing something like the nge is cool will pay for what they have done. we wish for our game back and we will get it back or see $OE shut down for their crimes.
I'll happily run round my town naked and pst the pics here if SOE gets closed down as a result of any lawsuit
I think your pretty safe from that horror show though becuase simply put you wont win against a massive company like sony,not unless you have a lot of time and a bottomless pit of money and even then i if that where the case i'd still put my money on sony,no court is going to tell any company how to produce thier product.
What SOE/LA did to SWG was wrong,moraly wrong but as for being legaly wrong i'm not so sure,the EULA whatever you think of it covers themselves for this becuase you and i agree to it and they can "enhance" any game they own any way they see fit,now of course you'll come back with the old chestnut about the refunds for the xpac and yes they were in muddy waters with it then but mark my words the lawyers at sony will have tightened up any sort of loophole that maybe could be used tighter than a hens arse in a sand storm.
Get over it i could say,i have,but i wouldnt presume to do that people invested a lot of time in the game (i know i did) and they are having trouble moving on from it,i know i miss the buggy mess that was SWG even now but i can see both sides to the story now (not the NGE that is beyond even me) but the CU i could have accepted happily in time but something had to be done with the game for all its good points it lacked any sort of direction and people in the whole like to be directed,the devs saw how WOW was doing and well the rest is history.
This forum does have a future but not the constant "bring back pre-cu" posts becuase it wont happen it really is that simple but what IMO must happen now is for to take a look at the bigger picture of the genre of MMO's and not let anything like the NGE happen again in any game.
i made that toon there for it is my toon and i can do whatever i want with my toon. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission . http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/en_US/players/content.vm?page=Policies%20Eula&resource=tosSo basicly you are saying you do not have to ob rules but a company that actualy owns the game is not in titel to do what they want but you are ?????. Hmmmmm strange, very very strange. I'm curious to know if other "disgrunted VETS" feel it's alright the way you sold your character and then come on forums to complain about not being treathed fair...oh i'm sure you might respond with saying you did so due to what SOE did, The Pot Calling The Kettle Black?
and me and my 250k friends are not a one trirck pony as you put it and many people are listening to us. soesucks.net gets a ton of views a month thanks to wildcat telling the truth about how bad $OE screwed us and how we want our game back. and that lawsuit will happen and soon mark my words $OE and anyone who thinks doing something like the nge is cool will pay for what they have done. we wish for our game back and we will get it back or see $OE shut down for their crimes.
Lawsuit probebly never will happen, atleast not for the NGE. But what should happen is what is talked about on the net, you know something that might have a better change on being changed then getting "your subscribtion based" game back. EULA's, as those need to change. And i'm all for that, regardless the game company.
You know what the MMO industry needs? Some kind of "Lemon Law". Only...SOE didn't really sell us a Lemon, they sold us an orange and then, later, turned it INTO a lemon. Perhaps a Lemorange, I can't be sure. Regardless, I think that this is the crux of the whole thing. Smed was spot on when he said they should have communicated better, because his actions might one day cause the world governments to step in and start policing this money fountain just as they have all others.
By the by, Iwantmyswg, you own nothing. Its very clearly written in the agreement for every last MMO on the planet, and in fact...is the reason why there is such a huge debate right now over the fact that EULA's are the most one sided financial agreements on the face of the planet. Essentially, you are paying the company for the right to level THEIR characters and equip them with THEIR items. The closest thing to compare it to is television, where you also own nothing. The difference here is, you don't actually DO anything with television...its purely hands off entertainment. Since you have to, at times, WORK in these games...its complete highway robbery that you pay for literally nothing. Its the real world equivalent of getting a job you love doing, and then having your boss tell you that your paycheck is going in HIS wallet from now on.
The whole fiasco is likely to cause damage to the industry, because it really ISN'T that hard for the consumers to press a legal issue. I don't mean a lawsuit in which they win money...but instead a motion to encourage the government to step in and protect the consumers. Its been too many years now for a lawsuit, and even if it was day one of the NGE the whole matter is very muddy and would only serve to win money back for those whom paid a year up...or bought the expansion. There would be no 'settlements', because the matter is fairly simple as far as legality goes. Should the government step in, however, you open a whole new bag of trouble...because NOW the devs have to be sure to hire legal teams for each game and that jacks up the overhead costs. That higher overhead would trickle down to the consumer...who would then be paying 25$ a month EASY.
It would also restrict creative freedom, and absolutely stall any sort of game expansion or patching to a screeching halt. Games that could release new content every 3 months would be lucky to release new content every 3 years due to the new legal hurdles they would have to jump through to 'protect' the consumer. They couldn't add new levels, or add new gear, because it would "damage the time invested" by the consumer already. All in all, its BAD. Very BAD.
i made that toon there for it is my toon and i can do whatever i want with my toon.
and me and my 250k friends are not a one trirck pony as you put it and many people are listening to us. soesucks.net gets a ton of views a month thanks to wildcat telling the truth about how bad $OE screwed us and how we want our game back. and that lawsuit will happen and soon mark my words $OE and anyone who thinks doing something like the nge is cool will pay for what they have done. we wish for our game back and we will get it back or see $OE shut down for their crimes.
Someone beat me to it but i want to do it anyway.
1. Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child. If you are a minor, your parent or guardian must complete the registration process, in which case he or she takes full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. By clicking the "I Accept" button, you represent that you are an adult and are accepting this Agreement either on behalf of yourself or your child. You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are liable for all activities conducted through the Account, and parents or guardians are liable for the activities of their child. Corporations and other entities are not eligible to procure Accounts.
This is directly from the EULA that im guessing since you played SWG you clicked accept.
So once again, you are wrong.
Can can paste the part about them being able to change the game whenever they want to if you want also.
If you dont like the rules that they set then dont play the game.
You know what the MMO industry needs? Some kind of "Lemon Law". Only...SOE didn't really sell us a Lemon, they sold us an orange and then, later, turned it INTO a lemon. Perhaps a Lemorange, I can't be sure. Regardless, I think that this is the crux of the whole thing. Smed was spot on when he said they should have communicated better, because his actions might one day cause the world governments to step in and start policing this money fountain just as they have all others. By the by, Iwantmyswg, you own nothing. Its very clearly written in the agreement for every last MMO on the planet, and in fact...is the reason why there is such a huge debate right now over the fact that EULA's are the most one sided financial agreements on the face of the planet. Essentially, you are paying the company for the right to level THEIR characters and equip them with THEIR items. The closest thing to compare it to is television, where you also own nothing. The difference here is, you don't actually DO anything with television...its purely hands off entertainment. Since you have to, at times, WORK in these games...its complete highway robbery that you pay for literally nothing. Its the real world equivalent of getting a job you love doing, and then having your boss tell you that your paycheck is going in HIS wallet from now on. The whole fiasco is likely to cause damage to the industry, because it really ISN'T that hard for the consumers to press a legal issue. I don't mean a lawsuit in which they win money...but instead a motion to encourage the government to step in and protect the consumers. Its been too many years now for a lawsuit, and even if it was day one of the NGE the whole matter is very muddy and would only serve to win money back for those whom paid a year up...or bought the expansion. There would be no 'settlements', because the matter is fairly simple as far as legality goes. Should the government step in, however, you open a whole new bag of trouble...because NOW the devs have to be sure to hire legal teams for each game and that jacks up the overhead costs. That higher overhead would trickle down to the consumer...who would then be paying 25$ a month EASY. It would also restrict creative freedom, and absolutely stall any sort of game expansion or patching to a screeching halt. Games that could release new content every 3 months would be lucky to release new content every 3 years due to the new legal hurdles they would have to jump through to 'protect' the consumer. They couldn't add new levels, or add new gear, because it would "damage the time invested" by the consumer already. All in all, its BAD. Very BAD.
This i can agree with. I think that EULAs should be looked into. And i do agree that the character should be yours to do with as you want, but as of right now, they are not.
I never understood why a game company would rather have me not play a characer and send them money every month when there could be someone playing that character and sending them money every month. All they lose is the box fee.
Guys, there is something many of you aren't understanding. You can't sue for something if you have incurred no damages. They gave refunds if you didn't like the game. They are not obligated by any stretch of the law to pay you for the time you've invested into a game.
If one day you stopped liking movies you could not sue DVD makers, hollywood, or anyone in the entertainment industry, because that source of entertainment no longer entertains you.
Gaming is not a job(not legally). You can't sue for damages. Sorry.
This i can agree with. I think that EULAs should be looked into. And i do agree that the character should be yours to do with as you want, but as of right now, they are not.
I never understood why a game company would rather have me not play a characer and send them money every month when there could be someone playing that character and sending them money every month. All they lose is the box fee.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
This i can agree with. I think that EULAs should be looked into. And i do agree that the character should be yours to do with as you want, but as of right now, they are not.
I never understood why a game company would rather have me not play a characer and send them money every month when there could be someone playing that character and sending them money every month. All they lose is the box fee.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
Thats all true, but not really what i meant. I mean they dont even want me giving my account away to someone else. Thus if i stop playing it they get nothing, if i give it to my friend and they play they still get the 15 bucks a month. That part i dont get.
This i can agree with. I think that EULAs should be looked into. And i do agree that the character should be yours to do with as you want, but as of right now, they are not.
I never understood why a game company would rather have me not play a characer and send them money every month when there could be someone playing that character and sending them money every month. All they lose is the box fee.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
Thats all true, but not really what i meant. I mean they dont even want me giving my account away to someone else. Thus if i stop playing it they get nothing, if i give it to my friend and they play they still get the 15 bucks a month. That part i dont get.
Technically, there isn't much they can do about it. Even less that they WOULD do about it. As long as only one person is playing the account, nothing will ever be said. Its not like they can track your IP address and limit access to only that one. Every consumer is allowed to play their account from any available computer. Realistically, the only way anything would ever be said is if both of you ran around general chats screaming about what you've done. Hell, even then I doubt they'd bother.
I think WoW even has a part in their EULA that allows that as long as the new owner changes the password and you didn't SELL it to them.
Bottom line is after 12 pages reading subject of topic still remains a valid and good position.
We know the NGE was morally wrong and in almost any case whats morally wrong is legally wrong too.
Sure $OE have $ONY behind them and noone has the money/time to drag the thieves on a court and proof in there not only that they are immoral human waste of scum but acting against law too.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored. Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it... Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
yes i hate $OE
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
They didn't steal 2 years of your life of your money, how could you possibly justify such a statement. You do need to get over it.
Bottom line is after 12 pages reading subject of topic still remains a valid and good position. We know the NGE was morally wrong and in almost any case whats morally wrong is legally wrong too. Sure $OE have $ONY behind them and noone has the money/time to drag the thieves on a court and proof in there not only that they are immoral human waste of scum but acting against law too.
There are lots of morally wrong things which arent illegal, adultery?
"immoral human waste of scum"? (its been said a 1000 times before but) chill out man it is just a game in the end. Sure you were sad and angry as almost everyone was when the NGE hit but by god, we're on our way to 3 years after it happened. Any legal action, despite the fact that it would be unsuccessful, would not benefit anyone truly.
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored. Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it... Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
yes i hate $OE
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
They didn't steal 2 years of your life of your money, how could you possibly justify such a statement. You do need to get over it.
i will have to agree, SOE did not steal 2 years of your life, since you did play SWG during those 2 years, what i can say though is that they did steal your 39,99$ for the retail box since you cant really play anymore what is on it. (unless you own the code which SOE aparently does not have anymore)
Originally posted by saay Originally posted by DarthRaidenBottom line is after 12 pages reading subject of topic still remains a valid and good position. We know the NGE was morally wrong and in almost any case whats morally wrong is legally wrong too. Sure $OE have $ONY behind them and noone has the money/time to drag the thieves on a court and proof in there not only that they are immoral human waste of scum but acting against law too.
There are lots of morally wrong things which arent illegal, adultery?
"immoral human waste of scum"? (its been said a 1000 times before but) chill out man it is just a game in the end. Sure you were sad and angry as almost everyone was when the NGE hit but by god, we're on our way to 3 years after it happened. Any legal action, despite the fact that it would be unsuccessful, would not benefit anyone truly.
Actually adultery is a form of violation of contract, and as such is grounds for divorce, which is a legal action in response to this violation.
It compares nicely with the way SOE violated everyone's contract by going beyond the reasonable person's standard of how a service provider can change the service provided in the middle of an ongoing business relationship.
It may be just a game TO YOU, but it is/was also a business relatiomship, the terms of which was violated by SOE.
Still, how you can continue to defend such people and such actions is beyond me, considering you claim to care about the Truth. Something just doesn't add up here.
Guys, -- you're right and you're wrong. Here's how I see you're right. Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest. Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change. Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded. The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues. It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.
I think refunds for subscription time bought during the time the Trials of ObiWan was being marketted and sold would be an excellent act of restitution.
People who bought the expansion as advertised, and subsription time to play it, and who made those purchases before the NGE was announced, should get all subscription fees back, for any time paid for beyond the 2 weeks that the game remained unchanged. I think that would address the fact that SOE kept a lot of money made under false pretenses. It would feel "just."
Why should game time bought during the ToOW marketing be included, assuming you used that time prior to the go-live of the nge? It was time you used in the exact same game a reasonable person "expected" -- I don't think "speculation" has ever been protected by laws.
Otherwise, yes, I think we're in agreement (again, assuming you never logged into the game again after the NGE because if you did, then you accepted the changes. and played through it.)
Originally posted by saayYou do need to get over it.
Saay, no matter what you say or how many posts the fanbois make the vets aren't coming back. Get. Over. It.
I have had to say this many times since you cant seem to understand: dont flatter yourself. I actively do not want you back, though i wouldnt mind some of my sensible, cool vet friends back. You may think taking what people have said to you, validly, then using it against the person who said it to you, with no real meaning, is clever; but its not.
"They stole, ruined, butchered OUR game" --- it was never anyones but SOE's
"They stole my money" --- no they didn't, you paid for and played SWG: An Empire divided
And why do people now use the phrase "a reasonable persons idea of reasonable change", as if this is some kind of proof that SOE must have done something unlawful?
Face the facts, there are no legal grounds to stand on, period.
Originally posted by saayI have had to say this many times since you cant seem to understand: dont flatter yourself. I actively do not want you back, though i wouldnt mind some of my sensible, cool vet friends back. You may think taking what people have said to you, validly, then using it against the person who said it to you, with no real meaning, is clever; but its not.
Saay, I really feel sorry for you, man. The thing is, though, that we're never coming back. I know the servers are empty and you don't have anybody to play with but it's just not going to happen. No amount of begging or pleading on your part is going to get us back. It's really just time to get over it.
Originally posted by saay Originally posted by smg777Originally posted by saay You do need to get over it.
Saay, no matter what you say or how many posts the fanbois make the vets aren't coming back. Get. Over. It.
I have had to say this many times since you cant seem to understand: dont flatter yourself. I actively do not want you back, though i wouldnt mind some of my sensible, cool vet friends back. You may think taking what people have said to you, validly, then using it against the person who said it to you, with no real meaning, is clever; but its not.
If what you say is true, then why are you even posting here? This is not the forum you are looking for.
"They stole, ruined, butchered OUR game" --- it was never anyones but SOE's "They stole my money" --- no they didn't, you paid for and played SWG: An Empire divided
And why do people now use the phrase "a reasonable persons idea of reasonable change", as if this is some kind of proof that SOE must have done something unlawful?
Face the facts, there are no legal grounds to stand on, period.
It isn't "proof" that they have done something unlawful, but it is grounds for a lawsuit. Any times anyone violates any non-negotiated contract in a way that MIGHT be beyond the "reasonable person's" expectations in the midst of a business relationship. it is ground for a lawsuit. One might not WIN one, but it's certainly grounds. That's how the law works. It starts with actionable grounds, THEN comes discovery and folks fight it out in court or they settled, whether it's done by by a judge or the parties involved themselves, then damages are assessed, then people move on from there, and often the business environment may change.
As has been stated MANY times in this and other threads (maybe take some time and actually read them, what is said and the context), this is a very new area of business and law, and all of this has yet to be settled. In time perhaps it will; that is partly what this discussion is about -- that and no matter what the LAW says, what they did was unethical, and the market has provided healthy discipline for theit unethical behavior.
As far as the law goes, I'm no lawyer, but I know several, and have spent a good deal of time watching how business and law work together and against one another as part of my general observations over the past 25 years or so.
It's fun for me.
Either way, YOUR pronouncement that people have no grounds is worth nothing here; although you are free to pronounce any legal theories you like of course, just as we are. It seems to frustrate and upset you however and I don't understand why.
Guys, there is something many of you aren't understanding. You can't sue for something if you have incurred no damages. They gave refunds if you didn't like the game. They are not obligated by any stretch of the law to pay you for the time you've invested into a game.
If one day you stopped liking movies you could not sue DVD makers, hollywood, or anyone in the entertainment industry, because that source of entertainment no longer entertains you.
Gaming is not a job(not legally). You can't sue for damages. Sorry.
I've already made the point that waht SOE did was criminal not civil
Comments
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
there is no prehaps we will win we will win as what $OE did is break the law. what they did was imho an act that should land anyone that just did 1 line of code in prison.and no i and my friends do own our items and our toons. i spent 90 hours working on getting jedi i did that i own that toon. if i want to it is my legal right to sell that toon. better still now i cannot sell that toon as jedi is worthless so i lost about $2k due to the nge change.
our crusade is opening eyes and showing people how bad things are in the world of gaming. and $OE is the worst of the worst.
Actually it was not your right to sell your toon, that is why EBay and Playerauctions were constantly having to remove stuff, which of course came right back on the site. Of course people did sell toon, just as they sell gold and items, but it was against the rules that you the Player agreed to.
You are a one trick pony, and people are not listening to you.
You will not get your game back.
You will not get Smed in jail.
You will not close down SOE.
You will most likely continue to rant and rave on here talking about the lawsuit that will never happen until FINALLY you get bored of it and move along.
Many times i read your posts and i think that you are actually messing around and having a fine joke of it all. Then i start to think that you really mean what you say and that is just plain sad.
A little advice for you fighing the fight. If you need a spokesperson pick someone like Suvroc before you pick this guy. I dont always agree with Suvroc but he makes sense at least.
And by the way, i would love for you guys to get your game back, it just isnt going to happen.
and me and my 250k friends are not a one trirck pony as you put it and many people are listening to us. soesucks.net gets a ton of views a month thanks to wildcat telling the truth about how bad $OE screwed us and how we want our game back.
and that lawsuit will happen and soon mark my words $OE and anyone who thinks doing something like the nge is cool will pay for what they have done. we wish for our game back and we will get it back or see $OE shut down for their crimes.
I'll happily run round my town naked and pst the pics here if SOE gets closed down as a result of any lawsuit
I think your pretty safe from that horror show though becuase simply put you wont win against a massive company like sony,not unless you have a lot of time and a bottomless pit of money and even then i if that where the case i'd still put my money on sony,no court is going to tell any company how to produce thier product.
What SOE/LA did to SWG was wrong,moraly wrong but as for being legaly wrong i'm not so sure,the EULA whatever you think of it covers themselves for this becuase you and i agree to it and they can "enhance" any game they own any way they see fit,now of course you'll come back with the old chestnut about the refunds for the xpac and yes they were in muddy waters with it then but mark my words the lawyers at sony will have tightened up any sort of loophole that maybe could be used tighter than a hens arse in a sand storm.
Get over it i could say,i have,but i wouldnt presume to do that people invested a lot of time in the game (i know i did) and they are having trouble moving on from it,i know i miss the buggy mess that was SWG even now but i can see both sides to the story now (not the NGE that is beyond even me) but the CU i could have accepted happily in time but something had to be done with the game for all its good points it lacked any sort of direction and people in the whole like to be directed,the devs saw how WOW was doing and well the rest is history.
This forum does have a future but not the constant "bring back pre-cu" posts becuase it wont happen it really is that simple but what IMO must happen now is for to take a look at the bigger picture of the genre of MMO's and not let anything like the NGE happen again in any game.
Lawsuit probebly never will happen, atleast not for the NGE. But what should happen is what is talked about on the net, you know something that might have a better change on being changed then getting "your subscribtion based" game back. EULA's, as those need to change. And i'm all for that, regardless the game company.
You know what the MMO industry needs? Some kind of "Lemon Law". Only...SOE didn't really sell us a Lemon, they sold us an orange and then, later, turned it INTO a lemon. Perhaps a Lemorange, I can't be sure. Regardless, I think that this is the crux of the whole thing. Smed was spot on when he said they should have communicated better, because his actions might one day cause the world governments to step in and start policing this money fountain just as they have all others.
By the by, Iwantmyswg, you own nothing. Its very clearly written in the agreement for every last MMO on the planet, and in fact...is the reason why there is such a huge debate right now over the fact that EULA's are the most one sided financial agreements on the face of the planet. Essentially, you are paying the company for the right to level THEIR characters and equip them with THEIR items. The closest thing to compare it to is television, where you also own nothing. The difference here is, you don't actually DO anything with television...its purely hands off entertainment. Since you have to, at times, WORK in these games...its complete highway robbery that you pay for literally nothing. Its the real world equivalent of getting a job you love doing, and then having your boss tell you that your paycheck is going in HIS wallet from now on.
The whole fiasco is likely to cause damage to the industry, because it really ISN'T that hard for the consumers to press a legal issue. I don't mean a lawsuit in which they win money...but instead a motion to encourage the government to step in and protect the consumers. Its been too many years now for a lawsuit, and even if it was day one of the NGE the whole matter is very muddy and would only serve to win money back for those whom paid a year up...or bought the expansion. There would be no 'settlements', because the matter is fairly simple as far as legality goes. Should the government step in, however, you open a whole new bag of trouble...because NOW the devs have to be sure to hire legal teams for each game and that jacks up the overhead costs. That higher overhead would trickle down to the consumer...who would then be paying 25$ a month EASY.
It would also restrict creative freedom, and absolutely stall any sort of game expansion or patching to a screeching halt. Games that could release new content every 3 months would be lucky to release new content every 3 years due to the new legal hurdles they would have to jump through to 'protect' the consumer. They couldn't add new levels, or add new gear, because it would "damage the time invested" by the consumer already. All in all, its BAD. Very BAD.
1. Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child. If you are a minor, your parent or guardian must complete the registration process, in which case he or she takes full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. By clicking the "I Accept" button, you represent that you are an adult and are accepting this Agreement either on behalf of yourself or your child. You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are liable for all activities conducted through the Account, and parents or guardians are liable for the activities of their child. Corporations and other entities are not eligible to procure Accounts.
This is directly from the EULA that im guessing since you played SWG you clicked accept.
So once again, you are wrong.
Can can paste the part about them being able to change the game whenever they want to if you want also.
If you dont like the rules that they set then dont play the game.
Gityup pony.
I never understood why a game company would rather have me not play a characer and send them money every month when there could be someone playing that character and sending them money every month. All they lose is the box fee.
Of course there was wrong done. I'm not sure anyone would dispute that.
You just can't legaly do anything about it. No one is saying its fair, or right, but life isn't always fair and right.
Guys, there is something many of you aren't understanding. You can't sue for something if you have incurred no damages. They gave refunds if you didn't like the game. They are not obligated by any stretch of the law to pay you for the time you've invested into a game.
If one day you stopped liking movies you could not sue DVD makers, hollywood, or anyone in the entertainment industry, because that source of entertainment no longer entertains you.
Gaming is not a job(not legally). You can't sue for damages. Sorry.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
Thats all true, but not really what i meant. I mean they dont even want me giving my account away to someone else. Thus if i stop playing it they get nothing, if i give it to my friend and they play they still get the 15 bucks a month. That part i dont get.
I can tell you why, and it furthers the ideal of "highway robbery". They want YOU act the screen, and they only want you to progress when YOU are. The moments you aren't at the screen are a sort of financial buffer...a protection of investments. It ensures you play longer. Having someone else, for instance, level you while you are at work shortens their financial expectation of you. AKA: If you aren't playing, and still pay...you have to pay longer to achieve the same results. The kicker is, if you PAY someone to level you...not only do they make less money on your lost time levelling...but someone else IS making money in their stead. Its a double whammy for the company, and while it shouldn't matter (hell, you shouldn't be WANTING to do it...if they'd design a game that was FUN instead of GRIND none of us WOULD do it) they think it does and have the law on their side at the moment.
There IS more to it. Technically, if you owned the character and got hacked there would be other legal hurdles to deal with. Mostly, its about money...and its pretty dirty if you ask me. These cats are making mint in this business, even on failures. Though, not Tabula Rasa failures...either way they should be doing more for their consumer.
Thats all true, but not really what i meant. I mean they dont even want me giving my account away to someone else. Thus if i stop playing it they get nothing, if i give it to my friend and they play they still get the 15 bucks a month. That part i dont get.
Technically, there isn't much they can do about it. Even less that they WOULD do about it. As long as only one person is playing the account, nothing will ever be said. Its not like they can track your IP address and limit access to only that one. Every consumer is allowed to play their account from any available computer. Realistically, the only way anything would ever be said is if both of you ran around general chats screaming about what you've done. Hell, even then I doubt they'd bother.
I think WoW even has a part in their EULA that allows that as long as the new owner changes the password and you didn't SELL it to them.
Bottom line is after 12 pages reading subject of topic still remains a valid and good position.
We know the NGE was morally wrong and in almost any case whats morally wrong is legally wrong too.
Sure $OE have $ONY behind them and noone has the money/time to drag the thieves on a court and proof in there not only that they are immoral human waste of scum but acting against law too.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
They didn't steal 2 years of your life of your money, how could you possibly justify such a statement. You do need to get over it.
There are lots of morally wrong things which arent illegal, adultery?
"immoral human waste of scum"? (its been said a 1000 times before but) chill out man it is just a game in the end. Sure you were sad and angry as almost everyone was when the NGE hit but by god, we're on our way to 3 years after it happened. Any legal action, despite the fact that it would be unsuccessful, would not benefit anyone truly.
Saay, no matter what you say or how many posts the fanbois make the vets aren't coming back. Get. Over. It.
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
They didn't steal 2 years of your life of your money, how could you possibly justify such a statement. You do need to get over it.
i will have to agree, SOE did not steal 2 years of your life, since you did play SWG during those 2 years, what i can say though is that they did steal your 39,99$ for the retail box since you cant really play anymore what is on it. (unless you own the code which SOE aparently does not have anymore)
There are lots of morally wrong things which arent illegal, adultery?
"immoral human waste of scum"? (its been said a 1000 times before but) chill out man it is just a game in the end. Sure you were sad and angry as almost everyone was when the NGE hit but by god, we're on our way to 3 years after it happened. Any legal action, despite the fact that it would be unsuccessful, would not benefit anyone truly.
Actually adultery is a form of violation of contract, and as such is grounds for divorce, which is a legal action in response to this violation.
It compares nicely with the way SOE violated everyone's contract by going beyond the reasonable person's standard of how a service provider can change the service provided in the middle of an ongoing business relationship.
It may be just a game TO YOU, but it is/was also a business relatiomship, the terms of which was violated by SOE.
Still, how you can continue to defend such people and such actions is beyond me, considering you claim to care about the Truth. Something just doesn't add up here.
fishermage.blogspot.com
People who bought the expansion as advertised, and subsription time to play it, and who made those purchases before the NGE was announced, should get all subscription fees back, for any time paid for beyond the 2 weeks that the game remained unchanged. I think that would address the fact that SOE kept a lot of money made under false pretenses. It would feel "just."
Why should game time bought during the ToOW marketing be included, assuming you used that time prior to the go-live of the nge? It was time you used in the exact same game a reasonable person "expected" -- I don't think "speculation" has ever been protected by laws.
Otherwise, yes, I think we're in agreement (again, assuming you never logged into the game again after the NGE because if you did, then you accepted the changes. and played through it.)
Saay, no matter what you say or how many posts the fanbois make the vets aren't coming back. Get. Over. It.
I have had to say this many times since you cant seem to understand: dont flatter yourself. I actively do not want you back, though i wouldnt mind some of my sensible, cool vet friends back. You may think taking what people have said to you, validly, then using it against the person who said it to you, with no real meaning, is clever; but its not.
"They stole, ruined, butchered OUR game" --- it was never anyones but SOE's
"They stole my money" --- no they didn't, you paid for and played SWG: An Empire divided
And why do people now use the phrase "a reasonable persons idea of reasonable change", as if this is some kind of proof that SOE must have done something unlawful?
Face the facts, there are no legal grounds to stand on, period.
Saay, I really feel sorry for you, man. The thing is, though, that we're never coming back. I know the servers are empty and you don't have anybody to play with but it's just not going to happen. No amount of begging or pleading on your part is going to get us back. It's really just time to get over it.
I have had to say this many times since you cant seem to understand: dont flatter yourself. I actively do not want you back, though i wouldnt mind some of my sensible, cool vet friends back. You may think taking what people have said to you, validly, then using it against the person who said it to you, with no real meaning, is clever; but its not.
If what you say is true, then why are you even posting here? This is not the forum you are looking for.
fishermage.blogspot.com
It isn't "proof" that they have done something unlawful, but it is grounds for a lawsuit. Any times anyone violates any non-negotiated contract in a way that MIGHT be beyond the "reasonable person's" expectations in the midst of a business relationship. it is ground for a lawsuit. One might not WIN one, but it's certainly grounds. That's how the law works. It starts with actionable grounds, THEN comes discovery and folks fight it out in court or they settled, whether it's done by by a judge or the parties involved themselves, then damages are assessed, then people move on from there, and often the business environment may change.
As has been stated MANY times in this and other threads (maybe take some time and actually read them, what is said and the context), this is a very new area of business and law, and all of this has yet to be settled. In time perhaps it will; that is partly what this discussion is about -- that and no matter what the LAW says, what they did was unethical, and the market has provided healthy discipline for theit unethical behavior.
As far as the law goes, I'm no lawyer, but I know several, and have spent a good deal of time watching how business and law work together and against one another as part of my general observations over the past 25 years or so.
It's fun for me.
Either way, YOUR pronouncement that people have no grounds is worth nothing here; although you are free to pronounce any legal theories you like of course, just as we are. It seems to frustrate and upset you however and I don't understand why.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I've already made the point that waht SOE did was criminal not civil