At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers.
I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money.
Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.
Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
go sell your fanbot ideas up a forum.
lets get this clear i don't like you no one likes you. you come here and sell this idea that everyone in the gaming world does this?
lol
they don't do it on eve and i don't remember anyone doing it on warcraft. so please go sell your fanbot ideas to the other 3 fanbois that play the game. this forum is for the grown up's.
The EULA doesn't cover a company from doing anything they damn well please.
For example it doesn't allow them to make statements like "The combat upgrade is here to stay" to their customers, but behind they scenes they are secretly developing a brand new game system. It doesn't allow them to market an expansion with certain features advertised and then the very next day announce that they are changing all that.
I'm no lawyer, but I know there are limits to a contract where only one party has bargaining power, especially one where they already have your money and you have no/little recourse or ability to get a refund.
If I am not incorrect there is something in the very definition of a contract that both parties need the ability to negotiate terms for a contract to be solid and binding. (I'm sure there is some law grad who can correct me or fill in any gaps I might have missed).
so then post this is every other forum which has made changes or alterations to a game, profession, skill, nerf etc. Gameplay may change, regardless of what was done or how, things change and it cannot be legally attacked. They use this broad terminology for a reason. Gameplay can mean anything from adding/deleting a class/profession, skill changes, expansions, graphics engines, etc. Basically they are saying anything can change at any given moment.
Again as I have said many times. There is a small difference between doing a few changes to gameplay and changing the gameplay to its very core...... first one is acceptable due to the nature of balancing classes, bug fixes, etc. The second one is not acceptable and legally shouldn't be, not without a clause saying that if they do it they fully refund the customers a certian amount of money. And im not talking small amounts either... refund of the game (original and expansions) and a refund on a few months of online play.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
You have a funny idea of success. If these products would of had the ability to make 10 times that income and if these products limit their future ability to make income then that's hardly a success. Give me the money it cost to make/maintain SWG and I guarentee i'd have a larger return.
Alot to answer for indeed, but for them to actually answer for it is dificult as you said almost every meeting ends with gag orders, anyone who can say anything against them as proof cant do so under law, the law which SOE has violated, I sorta agree the law is grey in the new area, but u cant sign off ur right and u cant agree to be defrauded.
As said before many times a contract can't bind you into breaking the law. These are scar tactics nothing more.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted. Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
To go over what I have said:
Many have already stated that a contract isn't binding if the conditions within that contract are egregiously unfair or the contract attempts to enforce something illegal. This should be common knowledge/sense, but I am sure easy to provide all sorts of precedent .
Ggiven the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still criminal. He should still be fined/serve prison time.
And what does "It's only a game" mean? I keep seeing this state made and it's assinignly stupid. What does the product have to do with a business' right to commit fraud? Nothing it's just an illogical statement made to devalue peoples concern, but it's the statement that is irrelevant and moronic.
there was a famos fraud case where somneone stole 20$ tfrom people by selling them a penny. Was it alright to steal hundreds of thousands because it was only a penny? Of course not. Reguardless of what SOE is selling they are a business and are expect to behave within the legal framwork of business.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.
my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.
i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.
$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.
$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.
old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.
fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
SOE won't ever have another success either. The NGE sank them for good.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
You have a funny idea of success. If these products would of had the ability to make 10 times that income and if these products limit their future ability to make income then that's hardly a success. Give me the money it cost to make/maintain SWG and I guarentee i'd have a larger return.
Its not my idea of success.
See if you can find an SOE income statement, you will see that they are doing quite well.
Im not saying that i agree with what SOE has done, im just saying that the people who spout junk like SOE is going out of business or that they cant make a successful game is pure crap.
SOE has made alot of money, SOE is still making alot of money, so like it or not as far as business goes they are a success. Could they have made more money, sure, but they are making plenty of it.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. Lets look beyond this and try and show us what would be needed to do this, meaning how much would it cost to do this, how much of hte old code is left to actualy accomplisch this? $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. Tbh i don't really care what they will or will not say, since hte NGE i hardly have faith in them being totaly honost, don't know why this time would be different. Very suprised to see someone like you actualy asking for something like this. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. Again like my first comment, where are they? are they still in the industry, what will it cost to have them back, what made them leave or get fired in the first place? fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. Not sure what you mean by this, but if it has anything to do with AFK grinders i'm all for it to ban them to oblivion, but then again i wish this upon any one in any game who feels the need ot AFK grind a game fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg. Lol this i totaly disagree upon afcourse i do not want people like that to be making discissions in a game i "might"want to enjoy. As most of their post do not fit the community i knew from pre-cu so sorry if these folks would have their say the game would continue to be FAIL. Reason is i do not want people who insult current player base but when current player base trows in a insult of their own the 2 persons you speak of make a topic out of it, but they don't even see how insulting they are themselfs ( and no i'm not saying i never insulted someone cause i sure have just like almost any person in this section.) If they want to be in a players union i have no problems with that i harldy take notice of things like that in my games but if they actualy have a say over whats go's in SWG i bet many would leave the game quicker then we saw happening with the NGE. Now if you said someone like Arc for example i would feel allot better, but not people who feel their ego is bigger then any game company ever could be...sorry.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
lol, lets pick the two most narcissistic forum trolls to represent "us", one that flip-flops from kissing SWG dev arse to kicking it on a regular basis and another who berates it while paying to have 9 active accounts.
No thanks.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg. Lol this i totaly disagree upon afcourse i do not want people like that to be making discissions in a game i "might"want to enjoy. As most of their post do not fit the community i knew from pre-cu so sorry if these folks would have their say the game would continue to be FAIL. Reason is i do not want people who insult current player base but when current player base trows in a insult of their own the 2 persons you speak of make a topic out of it, but they don't even see how insulting they are themselfs ( and no i'm not saying i never insulted someone cause i sure have just like almost any person in this section.) If they want to be in a players union i have no problems with that i harldy take notice of things like that in my games but if they actualy have a say over whats go's in SWG i bet many would leave the game quicker then we saw happening with the NGE. Now if you said someone like Arc for example i would feel allot better, but not people who feel their ego is bigger then any game company ever could be...sorry.
A poll can work wonders here.
And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ...
The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble.
Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Your post is thought provoking and original. Nobody has ever posted that phrase before. Well played, good sir.
Originally posted by DarthRaiden A poll can work wonders here. And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ... The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble. Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
Thats funny, I seem to recall one of you constant posters having an entire site dedicated to the "I Hate SOE" attitude backed up with a site moderator that shares the same view, instead of constantly coming here "trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble yourself.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Here's how I see you're right. Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest.
Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change. Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded.
The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues. It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.
Originally posted by safwd Originally posted by iwantmyswg Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by iwantmyswg as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow. my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did. i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens. $OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu. $OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us. old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg. fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us. fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses. -the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another. -SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Guys, -- you're right and you're wrong. Here's how I see you're right. Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest. Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change. Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded. The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues. It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.
Originally posted by DarthRaiden A poll can work wonders here. And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ... The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble. Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
Thats funny, I seem to recall one of you constant posters having an entire site dedicated to the "I Hate SOE" attitude backed up with a site moderator that shares the same view, instead of constantly coming here "trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble yourself.
Hey Baron, isn't THIS the Refuge forum? Aren't YOU the one who is trolling? Seems like it to me.
Guys, -- you're right and you're wrong. Here's how I see you're right. Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest. Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change. Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded. The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues. It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.
I think refunds for subscription time bought during the time the Trials of ObiWan was being marketted and sold would be an excellent act of restitution.
People who bought the expansion as advertised, and subsription time to play it, and who made those purchases before the NGE was announced, should get all subscription fees back, for any time paid for beyond the 2 weeks that the game remained unchanged. I think that would address the fact that SOE kept a lot of money made under false pretenses. It would feel "just."
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg. Lol this i totaly disagree upon afcourse i do not want people like that to be making discissions in a game i "might"want to enjoy. As most of their post do not fit the community i knew from pre-cu so sorry if these folks would have their say the game would continue to be FAIL. Reason is i do not want people who insult current player base but when current player base trows in a insult of their own the 2 persons you speak of make a topic out of it, but they don't even see how insulting they are themselfs ( and no i'm not saying i never insulted someone cause i sure have just like almost any person in this section.) If they want to be in a players union i have no problems with that i harldy take notice of things like that in my games but if they actualy have a say over whats go's in SWG i bet many would leave the game quicker then we saw happening with the NGE. Now if you said someone like Arc for example i would feel allot better, but not people who feel their ego is bigger then any game company ever could be...sorry.
A poll can work wonders here.
And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ...
The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble.
Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
Lol "crusade", protecting of players" how do you make up stuff like that, no offence meant, but seriuously you couldn't even reply to my original reply, al you copied is a part that due to not coping it completly is ripped out of context, if you truly would want to reply to my reply i would suggest to try and answer the questions i posted for IWMSWG. Instead of doing what you mostly do, and thats ignore questiuons but pretend to make a post look different then it is/was meant. Again not meant offensive but how in earth can we have a discussion when people like you hardly take time to write and understand what it is you reply to. Try that for a change, maybe we can have good constructive topics going on instead of the same old same old.
Don't pretend people say things while they are not saying that, and if you really have this much trouble being on a public forums i suggest to only visit www.soesucks.net as thats a place made specivily for those who can not stand SOE, this forum sections is for VETS of the game and you should know better then to asume every vet has this grugde against SOE, toh i don't agree on many things SOE has done they stillin a industry i am not working in, meaning they probebly know more about games then most of us on forums do, if thats not the case we would have seen many pre-cu like games already made by those hwo can't stand the NGE, fact remeains we have not seen one game even come close, nope EVE doesn't even touches it's surfice cause it's a complete different game, yes it's deep and has allot of great featuré's, more in a open space sim then a actual mmorpg. Still a great game, but nothing like pre-cu SWG.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.
my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.
i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.
$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.
$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.
old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.
fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.
I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.
my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.
i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.
$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.
$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.
old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.
fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
I'll be doing some exploration of my own in the coming months. Issues I'll be checking are:
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.
I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
there is no prehaps we will win we will win as what $OE did is break the law. what they did was imho an act that should land anyone that just did 1 line of code in prison.
and no i and my friends do own our items and our toons. i spent 90 hours working on getting jedi i did that i own that toon. if i want to it is my legal right to sell that toon. better still now i cannot sell that toon as jedi is worthless so i lost about $2k due to the nge change.
our crusade is opening eyes and showing people how bad things are in the world of gaming. and $OE is the worst of the worst.
Comments
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
go sell your fanbot ideas up a forum.
lets get this clear i don't like you no one likes you. you come here and sell this idea that everyone in the gaming world does this?
lol
they don't do it on eve and i don't remember anyone doing it on warcraft. so please go sell your fanbot ideas to the other 3 fanbois that play the game. this forum is for the grown up's.
The EULA doesn't cover a company from doing anything they damn well please.
For example it doesn't allow them to make statements like "The combat upgrade is here to stay" to their customers, but behind they scenes they are secretly developing a brand new game system. It doesn't allow them to market an expansion with certain features advertised and then the very next day announce that they are changing all that.
I'm no lawyer, but I know there are limits to a contract where only one party has bargaining power, especially one where they already have your money and you have no/little recourse or ability to get a refund.
If I am not incorrect there is something in the very definition of a contract that both parties need the ability to negotiate terms for a contract to be solid and binding. (I'm sure there is some law grad who can correct me or fill in any gaps I might have missed).
Again as I have said many times. There is a small difference between doing a few changes to gameplay and changing the gameplay to its very core...... first one is acceptable due to the nature of balancing classes, bug fixes, etc. The second one is not acceptable and legally shouldn't be, not without a clause saying that if they do it they fully refund the customers a certian amount of money. And im not talking small amounts either... refund of the game (original and expansions) and a refund on a few months of online play.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
You have a funny idea of success. If these products would of had the ability to make 10 times that income and if these products limit their future ability to make income then that's hardly a success. Give me the money it cost to make/maintain SWG and I guarentee i'd have a larger return.
As said before many times a contract can't bind you into breaking the law. These are scar tactics nothing more.
To go over what I have said:
Many have already stated that a contract isn't binding if the conditions within that contract are egregiously unfair or the contract attempts to enforce something illegal. This should be common knowledge/sense, but I am sure easy to provide all sorts of precedent .
Ggiven the above people have already given all sort of examples why such a drastic change in game play, particlary in the face of coverup and lies would have to be considered an egregiously unfair and unexpected change.
Reguardless of the above SOE made the EULA usless as soon as they began lieing about their intentions for the game. They atttempted to have people pay and agree to the EULA based upon false information they knowingly (which they have actually done since beta) disseminated.
What SOE did was illegal. It was fraud. They covered up the changes of a product with out right false information because they knew the release of information would cause cancelation in subscribtions. They then released a game/expansion knowing it was going to be unplayable. And this was far from the first time SOE frauded their player base. The problem is that the act is really more criminal then it is civil and no DA is going to go in and arrest people from the company. The problem with a civil suit is that the players got what they paid for, reguardless of what had changed about the game they paid to play a game that was in fact the game they were paying for. The fact that they were frauded has a minimal amout of value...is that worth a class action suit? No, but that doesn't mean it's not illegal.
It's as if someone advertised that the golfing masters were going to be played in your home town. And, people came from all over to play of the course believed to be where the masters was going to be played. then they find out that the masters wasn't going to be played in your home town, it was a lie to boost buisness. Not everyone has a right to a refund (assuming that the course prices weren't jacked) they after all got to play golf. How ever what the golf course owner did is still criminal. He should still be fined/serve prison time.
And what does "It's only a game" mean? I keep seeing this state made and it's assinignly stupid. What does the product have to do with a business' right to commit fraud? Nothing it's just an illogical statement made to devalue peoples concern, but it's the statement that is irrelevant and moronic.
there was a famos fraud case where somneone stole 20$ tfrom people by selling them a penny. Was it alright to steal hundreds of thousands because it was only a penny? Of course not. Reguardless of what SOE is selling they are a business and are expect to behave within the legal framwork of business.
as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.
my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.
i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.
$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.
$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.
old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.
fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.
fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.
Good luck with it
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
EQ2 is a failure?
EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year
Well you guys are right then. SOE has not made a successful MMO since the fiasco of the NGE.
But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.
EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money
That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.
What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.
You have a funny idea of success. If these products would of had the ability to make 10 times that income and if these products limit their future ability to make income then that's hardly a success. Give me the money it cost to make/maintain SWG and I guarentee i'd have a larger return.
Its not my idea of success.See if you can find an SOE income statement, you will see that they are doing quite well.
Im not saying that i agree with what SOE has done, im just saying that the people who spout junk like SOE is going out of business or that they cant make a successful game is pure crap.
SOE has made alot of money, SOE is still making alot of money, so like it or not as far as business goes they are a success. Could they have made more money, sure, but they are making plenty of it.
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
No thanks.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
A poll can work wonders here.
And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ...
The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble.
Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Your post is thought provoking and original. Nobody has ever posted that phrase before. Well played, good sir.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Guys, -- you're right and you're wrong.
Here's how I see you're right. Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest.
Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change. Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded.
The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues. It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Good post
Hey Baron, isn't THIS the Refuge forum? Aren't YOU the one who is trolling? Seems like it to me.
Tecmo Bowl.
People who bought the expansion as advertised, and subsription time to play it, and who made those purchases before the NGE was announced, should get all subscription fees back, for any time paid for beyond the 2 weeks that the game remained unchanged. I think that would address the fact that SOE kept a lot of money made under false pretenses. It would feel "just."
A poll can work wonders here.
And a word meant absolutely no offensive but i think on your "protection of players" crusade, you loosing often the right way ...
The players/posters/trolls you try to protect here have an entirely Site to express their "i love $OE" attitude backed up by a ton of forum moderators and an entire support of $OE hydra/company...in that forum our voice is muted and banned without anyone defending us except ourselfs and only if we pay the monthly fee, these people instead of posting there - all what they can think of and want to, and being promoted for that by the $OE mod/slaves- comming here to the already exiled people, trolling, insulting , starting flamewars and causing trouble.
Those you try "to defend them from" have no home except this one ...
Lol "crusade", protecting of players" how do you make up stuff like that, no offence meant, but seriuously you couldn't even reply to my original reply, al you copied is a part that due to not coping it completly is ripped out of context, if you truly would want to reply to my reply i would suggest to try and answer the questions i posted for IWMSWG. Instead of doing what you mostly do, and thats ignore questiuons but pretend to make a post look different then it is/was meant. Again not meant offensive but how in earth can we have a discussion when people like you hardly take time to write and understand what it is you reply to. Try that for a change, maybe we can have good constructive topics going on instead of the same old same old.
Don't pretend people say things while they are not saying that, and if you really have this much trouble being on a public forums i suggest to only visit www.soesucks.net as thats a place made specivily for those who can not stand SOE, this forum sections is for VETS of the game and you should know better then to asume every vet has this grugde against SOE, toh i don't agree on many things SOE has done they stillin a industry i am not working in, meaning they probebly know more about games then most of us on forums do, if thats not the case we would have seen many pre-cu like games already made by those hwo can't stand the NGE, fact remeains we have not seen one game even come close, nope EVE doesn't even touches it's surfice cause it's a complete different game, yes it's deep and has allot of great featuré's, more in a open space sim then a actual mmorpg. Still a great game, but nothing like pre-cu SWG.
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
-the Trials of ObiWan ads for items and features that SOE knew they were going to delete; they got a lot of money for the expansion and via resubscriptions with those ads, and after they received the money they announced that many of these items and features would be rendered useless in a short 2 weeks time. Since the minimum time you can subscribe for is a month, to my knowledge, anyone who subscribed for anything longer than 2 weeks based on the NGE advertisements should get a refund, and the people behind the ToOW could, in my view, be charged with fraud for selling the expansion and subscription time under false pretenses.
-the issue that Beatnik raised regarding the inability of consumers to use the original game they purchased, manuals etc. since the NGE changed the core mechanics and basically replaced one game for another.
-SOE attempts to justify their behaviour by saying that their EULA gives them the right to advertise things they are planning to delete, and not tell the customers of their plans until after they receive their money. Basically, I'm challenging the notion that a EULA can be used as a defense for fraud allegations. I'm convinced it can't be used successfully, if challenged.
all that needs to happen is $OE needs to pay for their crimes.
GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY
Hey, why don't you actually read the thread? If you did, you would know taht what you have brought up has already been dealt with.
I know I know, the Nancy McIntyre school of thread reading. Understood.
Actually it has not been dealt with. It has been denied, it has been bitched about and there have been theories that it isnt actually legal, but it has not been dealt with.I agree that what happened to SWG sucked for those of you who liked it but they really do have the right to change their product without asking you first.
Maybe im wrong and someone from this site will actually file a lawsuit against SOE and LA for what they did to SWG, and perhaps they will actually win. If that happens then i will be the first on here to say that you were right and i was wrong.
But i dont think it is going to happen. People have been talking about suing SOE on this forum for 2 years now and it hasnt happened yet. Im pretty sure that is because even while they are talking about it they know that it is a no win.
It says right in the EULA that you the customer own no part of the IP ever. That includes your character and any items that you may have gathered. So what can you possibly take them to court for, lost time? Not lost money because you were at no time forced to pay for the product.
Its sucks, hate them for it if you want to. But the crusade is going no where.
there is no prehaps we will win we will win as what $OE did is break the law. what they did was imho an act that should land anyone that just did 1 line of code in prison.and no i and my friends do own our items and our toons. i spent 90 hours working on getting jedi i did that i own that toon. if i want to it is my legal right to sell that toon. better still now i cannot sell that toon as jedi is worthless so i lost about $2k due to the nge change.
our crusade is opening eyes and showing people how bad things are in the world of gaming. and $OE is the worst of the worst.