Originally posted by miagisan soe haters just need something to complain about. if the nge never happened i GUARANTEE you they would find something else to be hating
way to demonize people you happen to disagree with. I don't hate anyone. I am merely analyzing a business and ethical failure.
My friends consider me overly optimistic and wonder why I am so happy, given the state of the earth and such. I never posted on a forum like this until the CU/NGE; I was happily playing the game and defending it for all its flaws to others.
Instead of using erzatz psychoanalysis, it is much better to actually REASON with your opponents.
Otherwise, it is YOU who can't get over things, since all YOU are relying on is personal attacks and not reason.
Originally posted by miagisan Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by miagisan so then post this is every other forum which has made changes or alterations to a game, profession, skill, nerf etc. Gameplay may change, regardless of what was done or how, things change and it cannot be legally attacked. They use this broad terminology for a reason. Gameplay can mean anything from adding/deleting a class/profession, skill changes, expansions, graphics engines, etc. Basically they are saying anything can change at any given moment.
That's a false argument. It's not about making changes to a game, but about making changes to a game beyond a reasonable person's expectations. that hasn't happened since the NGE, and everything that has come close, has been compared with the NGE, The NGE is now the standard and the rule of what NOT to do. They may be "saying" they can change it at any moment; but they can't, and don't, thanksto the NGE and the viral marekting surrounding it. no where does it state a statute of limitations of how far a game can change. Every company which offers some sort of service puts in these clauses....even the federal government. If you have ever read an ASTM guideline manual, OSHA regulation, EPA limitations....they all contain similar language in regards to standards, testing, agreements. For example OSHA has a specific set of standards which all air monitoring must be done in. BUT, there is a statute within the clause that allows for changes in the standard due to testing and new technology, so that every few months these standards for indoor air quality testing does not need to be rewritten. Do i see OSHA being sued over the way this occurs or how many people are affected and or quality of said testing. No. There legal jargon within provides a nice loophole. So if a standard 10 years ago was approved by said regulatory company, but by todays standards it would be considered cancer causing....OSHA cannot be sued unless they are found guilty of INTENTIONAL harm.
all non negotiated (and negotiated) contracts are subject to a reasonable person standard, to be determined and settled by case law over time. This is a very young industry. Watch and learn. We'll chat in a few decades.
For now, I am quite satisfied with market discipline, but "anything" does not go in EULAs.
Just to clarify my reasoning for this thread: It happens to be a response to something posted recently by someone claiming that no wrong was done in the case of the NGE. Their "proof" of this was the lack of legal action taken against SOE.
I'm suggesting that the lack of legal action that is publicly known has a much better explanation than "no wrong was done."
It's a discussion thread, not a hate thread.
It's also not about losing a video game, it's about providing customers with a service that was advertised and paid for. Another service was then delivered. This could be about your cable or satelite televisions service, your telephone package or any other entertainment and communication service.
It's about industry standards and consumer rights. It also happens to be relevant to the current discussions on MMO companies' EULAs. FYI
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored. Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it... Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
yes i hate $OE
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
Just to clarify my reasoning for this thread: It happens to be a response to something posted recently by someone claiming that no wrong was done in the case of the NGE. Their "proof" of this was the lack of legal action taken against SOE. I'm suggesting that the lack of legal action that is publicly known has a much better explanation than "no wrong was done." It's a discussion thread, not a hate thread. It's also not about losing a video game, it's about providing customers with a service that was advertised and paid for. Another service was then delivered. This could be about your cable or satelite televisions service, your telephone package or any other entertainment and communication service. It's about industry standards and consumer rights. It also happens to be relevant to the current discussions on MMO companies' EULAs. FYI
The following links might intrest you and others perhaps>
Jumping Through EULA Hoops("Unconscionable" is a legal term used to void contracts that are unfair to one party because of the other party's superior bargaining power. By my reading, that makes end-user license agreements (EULAs) unenforceable.)
EULA Analyzer Beta Version 1.1( A cool (and free!) application called EULA Analyzer lets you drag and drop any EULA legalese into its Analyzer, which will scan the text for key phrases)
Dangerous Terms: A User's Guide to EULAs(We've all seen them – windows that pop up before you install a new piece of software, full of legalese. To complete the install, you have to scroll through 60 screens of dense text and then click an "I Agree" button. Sometimes you don't even have to scroll through to click the button. Other times, there is no button because merely opening your new gadget means that you've "agreed" to the chunk of legalese.)
Backup Service EULAs Warrant a Closer Look( It comes as no surprise when you read a EULA to see it disclaims all warranties and excludes all damages. But one reader recently got to thinking about this in regards to the online backup services he was evaluating for purchase. Since backup vendors are in the reliability business, would the good ones perhaps be less prone to disclaiming all responsibility?)
OMG... ok here is the thing if you feel like you got riped off or that you are legally in the right to what ever complaint you have....... well your not!!!!! here is why... you are not buying THE product when you purchase a game you are buying the Right to use said product and in doing so they have the right to take that away sence legally they still own everything about it. They have the RIGHT to do what ever they wish with the product change it however they want..... because its still theres
edit: For the record i didnt like SWG before NGE and i didnt like it after.
You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored. Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it... Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
yes i hate $OE
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
Nice speech. I actually agree with a fair portion of it.
But your not getting your SWG back.
That boat has sailed.
SWG may die in the near future and cease to exist but it will never go back to what it was. SOE has already told you that.
And if you vets actually ran the show you would have gotten your game back 2 years ago. You didnt, because we the gamers run nothing.
Originally posted by safwd Originally posted by iwantmyswg Originally posted by Dracis You know what, and I really mean no offense by this guys, but I call BS on this one. Over a month ago I offered to pay for an attorney and had no takers. I did the same today and not one comment. I've already shown legal precedence in this case, but I'm ignored. Sorry guys but I've been honest with you all, brutally honest, about my situation and profession. I've been patient and tried to educate and let us ex-players have some focus. I've even offered my own money, which seems to be in shorter suppy every month. I just can't do it anymore. I can no longer try to be the voice of reason to the deaf. This is one vet who's had enough of the hate and I just can't justify coming here anymore. Good luck guys, you'll need it... Dracis Draconian ( and Dreen/Dagothos/Darla/Dooncan), formerly of Euro-Chimaera, signing off.
yes i hate $OE
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events. and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much. i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it. i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them. Nice speech. I actually agree with a fair portion of it.
But your not getting your SWG back. That boat has sailed. SWG may die in the near future and cease to exist but it will never go back to what it was. SOE has already told you that. And if you vets actually ran the show you would have gotten your game back 2 years ago. You didnt, because we the gamers run nothing. So what?
It is a good solution GH. I would just add that regulations regarding EULA's might make consumer exploitation more challenging for unethical companies. Why aren't you regularly ripped off by your satellite t.v. service provider? The industry is highly regulated to prevent this. Does still happen? I imagine so, but thieves generally prefer an easy target, and the MMO consumer is more vulnerable than others it would appear.
I understand where you are coming from. I really do. I just think that the only time that SOE did anything that was even close to being considered illegal was when they advertised items in ToOW that they knew were not going to be in the game. They did offer refunds though so that pretty much ended that. We all know that SOE would not have offered refunds if their lawyer believed that they had done nothing wrong. Customer satisfaction has never been one of SOE's major concerns and giving back money is not something any company ever wants to do.
Things like the NGE do not seem to happen on a regular basis. Yes games change quite often but nothing to the extent of the NGE. Any developer that would even be tempted to try it now knows how badly it can go for them. Honestly it would just not be worth the risk even for a failing game.
I really believe that the message that was sent to developers was heard. We did it as gamers and it was as easy as hitting the cancel button. There was no need for lawyers or court rooms. A few hundred thousand people made their opinions known by simply walking away.
In the end SWG and the NGE will be an interesting side note in the history of online gaming. A what not to do to your game and your customers. A lesson learned through the loss of customers and profit. Going through the courts just takes far to long. Hitting the cancel button brings immediate and very satisfying results. I do so love instant gratification.
SOE and LEC stole every dollar they collected from the time they decided to go with the NGE instead of stay with the CU until the day they finally announced that intention (the producer letter), because they were collecting that money in "bad faith" withholding knowledge (the NGE) that would certainly was material to our decision to pay or not pay for a game that was from that moment, abandon ware.
The timing of the expansion charge (day before the letter), the marketing for it, and the fact that they did eventually offer refunds for it shows that they knew they had criminal and civil liability there, and that the NGE was premeditated fraud, that they'd deliberately timed things so as to collect as much money from people who were deceived into believing that the CU game was going to be ongoing, while knowing this wasn't the case.
Offering the refunds didn't absolve them of their crimes. You aren't allowed to rob a bank, then get out of going to jail because you offered to give the money back to the depositors who requested it back (note that they didn't refund the expansion for everyone, only those who jumped through hoops).
They never have offered, nor ever refunded, any of the subscriber fees, monthly and prepaid that they collected in bad faith for the months in which they were secretly working on the NGE while publicly claiming "CU was here to stay". That is where they could be in real trouble.
SOE and LEC, during the time of lies and deceit that led up to the NGE stole FAR more money than the average bank robber. $3.7 million (assuming 254K subscribers) multiplied by however many months they were working on the NGE. And I think it goes back a lot longer than we've ever been told. I think they started working on the NGE BEFORE the CU was even released. I think that the CU was always a fraud, that it was nothing more than a necessary bridge to convert the original game to the NGE, and was never intended to be a permanent game system.
Only way that will ever be proven or dis proven is a full blown investigation into SOE and LEC.
Oh, it's been mentioned that SOE hasn't had ANYTHING succeed since the NGE... What is going to be interesting is seeing if the same thing happens with LEC. I, for one, have no intention of buying anything from them.
Whether or not anyone involved with the NGE gets prosecuted or not, or whether SOE or LEC ever lose a class action lawsuit, the damage is done. The NGE is doomed, really is dead already, only kept alive out of pure stubbornness and LEC's willingness to pimp the Star Wars name for a cheap buck, even if it devalues it. The current game and development team are a pure joke.
SOE has become synonymous with "it's not a question of IF they will screw you over if you play one of their games, it's a question of WHEN, and HOW MANY times they will do it". And, as we know, all the principals involved in the NGE, from Smed and Ward on down are "damaged goods" who will negatively impact any company or product they are associated with due to the NGE blood on their hands.
Originally posted by safwd Originally posted by salvaje Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by salvaje At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers. I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money. Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality. Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game? If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not. What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character. Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first. Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so. What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral. I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it. I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not. What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character. Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first. Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so. What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it. I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
Can you name me another game changing from RPG to FPS "on the fly" ?
The right procedure for this change without $OE looking like thieves would have been.
Announcing the shutdown of Star Wars Galaxies an empire Divided. Followed by announcing the new game with Star Wars theme for example "Star Wars FPS nightmare" .. this would have been more honest and would not look like thievery... But they tried to milk customers letting them believe its what they bought ..just ..."enhanced"...(a ridiculous term considering the current crap)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot.
I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed.
Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot. I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed. Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
well i can't resist ...
never heard of Smedley died so no need to change anything 2005 , right ?
Another hint the game was never better then PRE CU subscription wise and current version the low point.
$OE can expect now a $0.00 per day from about 250k people and obviously thats by far better then $0.50 per day according to $OE and their fanbois (personally i like $125k per day so if you don't mind that amount of money contact me i will surely find a use for it ) - having a big amount of customer requires too much counting of $,so they asked Nancy and while she was already on the "reading" prob she solved the "subscription counting" prob on the fly too ...grats $OE-
btw you should consider to start blame Mrs. Hartman for loosing Phil Hartman on the show . You can't sue her tho, cause you can't get her in prisoner's box. But with John S. in our case it is still possible.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
This is yet another damage control strategy aimed at discouraging exploited consumers from standing up for their rights: "No legal action to date means that SOE and LA did nothing wrong with the NGE." Here's a better explanation for no legal action: 1. SOE provided refunds for the cost of the expansion to everyone they allegedly defrauded. 2. Game outlets provided people with game card refunds allowing them to recover their subscription fees. 3. SOE has a history of using face to face meetings and non-disclosure aggreements to perform damage control. 4. Some people believe that when you sign a waiver saying you have no rights as a consumer, that this waiver is actually valid. That is false, you can't give someone permission to defraud you. The law will not allow it. 5. The resources needed to address the wrongs done through legal channels are currently being invested in other areas. I know my resources have been tied up dealing with other legislative issues-- ones that relate to the safety of our children in our communities. Sorry to all those behind the NGE bait and switch, you frankly don't rate very high on my list of things to do, despite how disgusted I am by your apparent lack of ethics. What I do with some time off at this point remains to be seen. I do encourage anyone that wants to see an end to corporate exploitation of MMO gamers to take action though. Don't wait for someone else to do it. Some of the people in the best position to act are in fact addressing issues that are even more compelling.
Alot to answer for indeed, but for them to actually answer for it is dificult as you said almost every meeting ends with gag orders, anyone who can say anything against them as proof cant do so under law, the law which SOE has violated, I sorta agree the law is grey in the new area, but u cant sign off ur right and u cant agree to be defrauded.
Just to clarify my reasoning for this thread: It happens to be a response to something posted recently by someone claiming that no wrong was done in the case of the NGE. Their "proof" of this was the lack of legal action taken against SOE. I'm suggesting that the lack of legal action that is publicly known has a much better explanation than "no wrong was done." It's a discussion thread, not a hate thread. It's also not about losing a video game, it's about providing customers with a service that was advertised and paid for. Another service was then delivered. This could be about your cable or satelite televisions service, your telephone package or any other entertainment and communication service. It's about industry standards and consumer rights. It also happens to be relevant to the current discussions on MMO companies' EULAs. FYI
The following links might intrest you and others perhaps>
Jumping Through EULA Hoops("Unconscionable" is a legal term used to void contracts that are unfair to one party because of the other party's superior bargaining power. By my reading, that makes end-user license agreements (EULAs) unenforceable.)
EULA Analyzer Beta Version 1.1( A cool (and free!) application called EULA Analyzer lets you drag and drop any EULA legalese into its Analyzer, which will scan the text for key phrases)
Dangerous Terms: A User's Guide to EULAs(We've all seen them – windows that pop up before you install a new piece of software, full of legalese. To complete the install, you have to scroll through 60 screens of dense text and then click an "I Agree" button. Sometimes you don't even have to scroll through to click the button. Other times, there is no button because merely opening your new gadget means that you've "agreed" to the chunk of legalese.)
Backup Service EULAs Warrant a Closer Look( It comes as no surprise when you read a EULA to see it disclaims all warranties and excludes all damages. But one reader recently got to thinking about this in regards to the online backup services he was evaluating for purchase. Since backup vendors are in the reliability business, would the good ones perhaps be less prone to disclaiming all responsibility?)
Hey Reklaw thanks for these links, they're right on topic, and I'm gonna check 'em out. Nice post
Wow, I just read the first article and it's so darn good I'm copying it here now for anyone to see at a glance. Great stuff Reklaw!
"Part of the problem is that EULAs aren't negotiated; they are simply agreed to. There is no discussion between the user and the vendor. You click "Yes" to use the software on the vendor's terms or look elsewhere. I understand the interests of the company here, but it is hard to think of this kind of mass-market contracting as a bargaining process.
The tide may be turning. Earlier this year, a California appeals court struck down a mandatory arbitration clause in T-Mobile's EULA. In that case, Gatton v. T-Mobile, the court decided that, because the agreement was written by a party with superior bargaining strength and the customer was given no ability to negotiate—just a simple yes/no choice—the contract was unconscionable. To which I say: Well, duh—what took so long?
Another decision that should be of particular concern to PC Magazine readers was handed down recently in New York State. Blue Coat Systems had decided it could contractually forbid customers from criticizing its products. It did so by inserting an "antibenchmarking" clause into its EULA. Seems it didn't want any customers comparing its proxy servers with the competition's. The state attorney general's office filed suit, at which point Blue Coat quickly settled, paid a small fine, and removed the clause from its contracts. Amen.
I wonder what kind of EULAs we have violated by benchmarking products that come into PC Magazine Labs. Turns out we published a review of VMware Workstation without the company's approval, as required in its EULA. Yeah, sorry about that, guys.
Common sense tells me that EULAs are pitiful excuses for fair contracts. It is time for consumers to have a choice that extends beyond "yes" or "no." Note to lawyers: All EULAs are unconscionable.
Dan Costa"
"First ones now will later be last, oh the times they are a'changin'"
This is yet another damage control strategy aimed at discouraging exploited consumers from standing up for their rights: "No legal action to date means that SOE and LA did nothing wrong with the NGE." Here's a better explanation for no legal action: 1. SOE provided refunds for the cost of the expansion to everyone they allegedly defrauded. 2. Game outlets provided people with game card refunds allowing them to recover their subscription fees. 3. SOE has a history of using face to face meetings and non-disclosure aggreements to perform damage control. 4. Some people believe that when you sign a waiver saying you have no rights as a consumer, that this waiver is actually valid. That is false, you can't give someone permission to defraud you. The law will not allow it. 5. The resources needed to address the wrongs done through legal channels are currently being invested in other areas. I know my resources have been tied up dealing with other legislative issues-- ones that relate to the safety of our children in our communities. Sorry to all those behind the NGE bait and switch, you frankly don't rate very high on my list of things to do, despite how disgusted I am by your apparent lack of ethics. What I do with some time off at this point remains to be seen. I do encourage anyone that wants to see an end to corporate exploitation of MMO gamers to take action though. Don't wait for someone else to do it. Some of the people in the best position to act are in fact addressing issues that are even more compelling.
Alot to answer for indeed, but for them to actually answer for it is dificult as you said almost every meeting ends with gag orders, anyone who can say anything against them as proof cant do so under law, the law which SOE has violated, I sorta agree the law is grey in the new area, but u cant sign off ur right and u cant agree to be defrauded.
It is a real paradox that the NDA legal restrictions prevent people from providing potentially damning evidence, but that is in fact how they are used at times. A very close friend of mine was unlawfully dismissed. He was offered a whack of cash by the company dismissing him (hostile takeover). To take the cash he had to sign an NDA saying that he wouldn't discuss the unlawful dismal, and that he would not take any legal action against them.
So, we all know that SOE is handy with NDA's. It's no stretch at all to imagine that this has been part of their damage control strategy.
Anytime I see staff leaving a corporation, and I hear allegations of fraud etc., and I see the letters NDA, I smell manure.
So does no public legal action mean no wrong was done? Certainly not. It's more likely it means that someone has mastered the use of NDAs. Or at least they think they have. Time will tell. If I was in on these scams and cover ups, I don't know how I'd look at myself in the mirror or ever get a good night sleep.
Originally posted by Gutboy For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot. I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed. Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
If you subscribed to a service for the sole reason to listen to this broadcast, and it was an advertised feature, then yes, you should be entitled to a refund if the show was cancelled. Your example is more like Sirius deciding to stop broadcasting Howard Stern, despite prominently advertising him. They would probably owe refunds to those that picked Sirius over XM because of this "feature".
Jedi accounts in pre-NGE sold for as much as $2k on eBay. They are still worth $300 to $500, for elder Jedi, even now. There is a real world price that has been paid for said items and this does not bode well for SOE or any other MMO that would deny there is a real world value attached to in game items and accomplishments. The precedent was SET the moment someone paid real money. The IRS has looked into these transactions as a source of revenue already. They may be subject to income tax.
There is already legal action, interest from government agencies, and pissed on customers. It is only a matter of time before all of these consumer relationships become much more defined. SOE will be a root cause of any legislation passed. At least they will have a legacy, even if it is in case law books...
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers.
I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money.
Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.
Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot.
I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed.
Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
If you subscribed to a service for the sole reason to listen to this broadcast, and it was an advertised feature, then yes, you should be entitled to a refund if the show was cancelled. Your example is more like Sirius deciding to stop broadcasting Howard Stern, despite prominently advertising him. They would probably owe refunds to those that picked Sirius over XM because of this "feature".
Jedi accounts in pre-NGE sold for as much as $2k on eBay. They are still worth $300 to $500, for elder Jedi, even now. There is a real world price that has been paid for said items and this does not bode well for SOE or any other MMO that would deny there is a real world value attached to in game items and accomplishments. The precedent was SET the moment someone paid real money. The IRS has looked into these transactions as a source of revenue already. They may be subject to income tax.
There is already legal action, interest from government agencies, and pissed on customers. It is only a matter of time before all of these consumer relationships become much more defined. SOE will be a root cause of any legislation passed. At least they will have a legacy, even if it is in case law books...
Great post. I'd add that the television show example, to be a fair comparison would be more like this:
Subscribe to this service and you will receive access to a certain television show. Meanwhile the executives at the studio have already decided to cancel that t.v. show and keep your money. They've also decided to get your money by advertising the show as part of the service package, and they've decided to withhold information about its impending cancellation for the purpose of getting your subscription money under false pretenses.
I hope you can see the important differences here gutboy. I also hope you can truly see what you've chosen to defend and support. I don't know if this is a job for you or what, but I at least hope you know what it is your really standing up for. The alternative is that someone has truly convinced you that it's ok to sell something you know you're going to cancel, without informing the customer.
At this point I want to see Smed, Torres, McIntyre, Ward, and Cao marched off in orange jumpsuits more than I want money back or even Pre-CU servers.
I'd rather find a prosecutor who would be willing to indict SOE and LEC over the NGE than sue them for money.
Considering that they've committed this crime in every single jurisdiction they had a victim in, this MAY be possible...
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.
Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
Re. your EULA defense, fyi:
"Part of the problem is that EULAs aren't negotiated; they are simply agreed to. There is no discussion between the user and the vendor. You click "Yes" to use the software on the vendor's terms or look elsewhere. I understand the interests of the company here, but it is hard to think of this kind of mass-market contracting as a bargaining process.
The tide may be turning. Earlier this year, a California appeals court struck down a mandatory arbitration clause in T-Mobile's EULA. In that case, Gatton v. T-Mobile, the court decided that, because the agreement was written by a party with superior bargaining strength and the customer was given no ability to negotiate—just a simple yes/no choice—the contract was unconscionable. To which I say: Well, duh—what took so long?
Another decision that should be of particular concern to PC Magazine readers was handed down recently in New York State. Blue Coat Systems had decided it could contractually forbid customers from criticizing its products. It did so by inserting an "antibenchmarking" clause into its EULA. Seems it didn't want any customers comparing its proxy servers with the competition's. The state attorney general's office filed suit, at which point Blue Coat quickly settled, paid a small fine, and removed the clause from its contracts. Amen.
I wonder what kind of EULAs we have violated by benchmarking products that come into PC Magazine Labs. Turns out we published a review of VMware Workstation without the company's approval, as required in its EULA. Yeah, sorry about that, guys.
Common sense tells me that EULAs are pitiful excuses for fair contracts. It is time for consumers to have a choice that extends beyond "yes" or "no." Note to lawyers: All EULAs are unconscionable.
Dan Costa"
Regarding did nothing illegal, as I've mentioned before accepting money under false pretenses is fraud, and a criminal offence in my jurisdiction. If SOE/LA had been honest about their plans to delete things BEFORE they accepted everyone's money, this would be a non-issue, as you rightly suggest. Timing is everything here. They DID NOT provide information about their plans to delete advertised items and features until THE DAY AFTER they accepted all of our money.
For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot. I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed. Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
Actually for 50 cents a day, all I expected was truthful information about the service I was purchasing. Instead I was given misleading information, and my money was taken under false pretenses.
Truthful information about a service is a moral and legal obligation on the part of the service provider. In fact, I don't have to pay anything for that. It's the law.
As I've mentioned in another post, your example would be more accurate if a tv service provider advertised a channel they were planning to cancel, but they didn't tell anyone of their cancellation plans until after they had received everyone's money, for a package that included that channel.
At this point I'm convinced that anyone who can't see this, doesn't want to see it because the truth is too threatening or disturbing.
"Regarding did nothing illegal, as I've mentioned before accepting money under false pretenses is fraud, and a criminal offence in my jurisdiction. If SOE/LA had been honest about their plans to delete things BEFORE they accepted everyone's money, this would be a non-issue, as you rightly suggest. Timing is everything here. They DID NOT provide information about their plans to delete advertised items and features until THE DAY AFTER they accepted all of our money."
Exactly why I will never touch another SOE product no matter what it is. This is not the only time SOE flat out lied.
Your best legal action is to support not giving SOE one more cent and to spread the word to others why they should not support a company like SOE. Anything beyond that is a waiste of time in my opinion.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not. Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there. As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game. "5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (the Game Site). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased." I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up. See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point. Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it. How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong. As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that. So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted. Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
I found a Jedi account for sale, with bidders, pretty easily:
As I said, a real world value has been assigned to these items. The IRS is looking at ways to tax personal gains from the sale of MMO items. You can look that one up yourself. China's example is indeed relevant, because our legal system in the U.S. does consider International law.
Just because you are FORCED to accept an EULA for service, it does not make it a LEGAL agreement. This has been proven in various court cases already. The "agreements" are almost universally unenforceable when they go to court, because they are far too biased against the consumer. Clinging to those phrases in the EULA as a defense, SOE will fail.
I would love to see a class action go forward. It would be even better to see a state AG go for a criminal case. By Arc's English, I would assume he is English. SOE has International trouble here. The only thing that will save them at this point is apathy and statute of limitations.
Comments
My friends consider me overly optimistic and wonder why I am so happy, given the state of the earth and such. I never posted on a forum like this until the CU/NGE; I was happily playing the game and defending it for all its flaws to others.
Instead of using erzatz psychoanalysis, it is much better to actually REASON with your opponents.
Otherwise, it is YOU who can't get over things, since all YOU are relying on is personal attacks and not reason.
fishermage.blogspot.com
That's a false argument. It's not about making changes to a game, but about making changes to a game beyond a reasonable person's expectations. that hasn't happened since the NGE, and everything that has come close, has been compared with the NGE, The NGE is now the standard and the rule of what NOT to do.
They may be "saying" they can change it at any moment; but they can't, and don't, thanksto the NGE and the viral marekting surrounding it.
no where does it state a statute of limitations of how far a game can change. Every company which offers some sort of service puts in these clauses....even the federal government. If you have ever read an ASTM guideline manual, OSHA regulation, EPA limitations....they all contain similar language in regards to standards, testing, agreements.
For example OSHA has a specific set of standards which all air monitoring must be done in. BUT, there is a statute within the clause that allows for changes in the standard due to testing and new technology, so that every few months these standards for indoor air quality testing does not need to be rewritten. Do i see OSHA being sued over the way this occurs or how many people are affected and or quality of said testing. No. There legal jargon within provides a nice loophole. So if a standard 10 years ago was approved by said regulatory company, but by todays standards it would be considered cancer causing....OSHA cannot be sued unless they are found guilty of INTENTIONAL harm.
all non negotiated (and negotiated) contracts are subject to a reasonable person standard, to be determined and settled by case law over time. This is a very young industry. Watch and learn. We'll chat in a few decades.
For now, I am quite satisfied with market discipline, but "anything" does not go in EULAs.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Just to clarify my reasoning for this thread: It happens to be a response to something posted recently by someone claiming that no wrong was done in the case of the NGE. Their "proof" of this was the lack of legal action taken against SOE.
I'm suggesting that the lack of legal action that is publicly known has a much better explanation than "no wrong was done."
It's a discussion thread, not a hate thread.
It's also not about losing a video game, it's about providing customers with a service that was advertised and paid for. Another service was then delivered. This could be about your cable or satelite televisions service, your telephone package or any other entertainment and communication service.
It's about industry standards and consumer rights. It also happens to be relevant to the current discussions on MMO companies' EULAs. FYI
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
The following links might intrest you and others perhaps>
Jumping Through EULA Hoops ("Unconscionable" is a legal term used to void contracts that are unfair to one party because of the other party's superior bargaining power. By my reading, that makes end-user license agreements (EULAs) unenforceable.)
EULA Analyzer Beta Version 1.1 ( A cool (and free!) application called EULA Analyzer lets you drag and drop any EULA legalese into its Analyzer, which will scan the text for key phrases)
Dangerous Terms: A User's Guide to EULAs (We've all seen them – windows that pop up before you install a new piece of software, full of legalese. To complete the install, you have to scroll through 60 screens of dense text and then click an "I Agree" button. Sometimes you don't even have to scroll through to click the button. Other times, there is no button because merely opening your new gadget means that you've "agreed" to the chunk of legalese.)
Backup Service EULAs Warrant a Closer Look ( It comes as no surprise when you read a EULA to see it disclaims all warranties and excludes all damages. But one reader recently got to thinking about this in regards to the online backup services he was evaluating for purchase. Since backup vendors are in the reliability business, would the good ones perhaps be less prone to disclaiming all responsibility?)
OMG... ok here is the thing if you feel like you got riped off or that you are legally in the right to what ever complaint you have....... well your not!!!!! here is why... you are not buying THE product when you purchase a game you are buying the Right to use said product and in doing so they have the right to take that away sence legally they still own everything about it. They have the RIGHT to do what ever they wish with the product change it however they want..... because its still theres
edit: For the record i didnt like SWG before NGE and i didnt like it after.
yes i hate $OEyes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
Nice speech. I actually agree with a fair portion of it.
But your not getting your SWG back.
That boat has sailed.
SWG may die in the near future and cease to exist but it will never go back to what it was. SOE has already told you that.
And if you vets actually ran the show you would have gotten your game back 2 years ago. You didnt, because we the gamers run nothing.
yes i hate the fanbois and fanbots
i want our game back? remember our game? the one that got stolen by the dev's who think they know what is best for our game. i hate them for taking it they stole 2 years of my life and my money. they stole the joy of being a jedi or going out and grinding. they stole the fun of weekend long pvp events.
and it is not just $OE i hate too. i hate the fanbois who back them and tell us we should get over it. they are the ones that need to get over the fact that the nge swg sucks and no one likes it. i hate blizzard and the other devs who think making some easy to play mmo is what us vets want. i hate microsoft and nintendo for turning the home gaming market into a place for 14 year old kids who think they are gang members flock with titles that are boring and too easy to play and cost way too much.
i want the gaming we had back. i want hard games back i want our swg back. and i hate smed and the rest of the devs and his mindless fanboi retards who tell us we need to get over it.
i want all of them run out of town so they can go back to watching mtv. and i want our gaming and our swg back. and i know we will get that back. getting pre-cu swg back will be the message to the devs and fanbois and it will say we are sick of your idea of gaming. us vets run the show not them.
Nice speech. I actually agree with a fair portion of it.
But your not getting your SWG back.
That boat has sailed.
SWG may die in the near future and cease to exist but it will never go back to what it was. SOE has already told you that.
And if you vets actually ran the show you would have gotten your game back 2 years ago. You didnt, because we the gamers run nothing.
So what?
fishermage.blogspot.com
It is a good solution GH. I would just add that regulations regarding EULA's might make consumer exploitation more challenging for unethical companies. Why aren't you regularly ripped off by your satellite t.v. service provider? The industry is highly regulated to prevent this. Does still happen? I imagine so, but thieves generally prefer an easy target, and the MMO consumer is more vulnerable than others it would appear.
I understand where you are coming from. I really do. I just think that the only time that SOE did anything that was even close to being considered illegal was when they advertised items in ToOW that they knew were not going to be in the game. They did offer refunds though so that pretty much ended that. We all know that SOE would not have offered refunds if their lawyer believed that they had done nothing wrong. Customer satisfaction has never been one of SOE's major concerns and giving back money is not something any company ever wants to do.
Things like the NGE do not seem to happen on a regular basis. Yes games change quite often but nothing to the extent of the NGE. Any developer that would even be tempted to try it now knows how badly it can go for them. Honestly it would just not be worth the risk even for a failing game.
I really believe that the message that was sent to developers was heard. We did it as gamers and it was as easy as hitting the cancel button. There was no need for lawyers or court rooms. A few hundred thousand people made their opinions known by simply walking away.
In the end SWG and the NGE will be an interesting side note in the history of online gaming. A what not to do to your game and your customers. A lesson learned through the loss of customers and profit. Going through the courts just takes far to long. Hitting the cancel button brings immediate and very satisfying results. I do so love instant gratification.
SOE and LEC stole every dollar they collected from the time they decided to go with the NGE instead of stay with the CU until the day they finally announced that intention (the producer letter), because they were collecting that money in "bad faith" withholding knowledge (the NGE) that would certainly was material to our decision to pay or not pay for a game that was from that moment, abandon ware.
The timing of the expansion charge (day before the letter), the marketing for it, and the fact that they did eventually offer refunds for it shows that they knew they had criminal and civil liability there, and that the NGE was premeditated fraud, that they'd deliberately timed things so as to collect as much money from people who were deceived into believing that the CU game was going to be ongoing, while knowing this wasn't the case.
Offering the refunds didn't absolve them of their crimes. You aren't allowed to rob a bank, then get out of going to jail because you offered to give the money back to the depositors who requested it back (note that they didn't refund the expansion for everyone, only those who jumped through hoops).
They never have offered, nor ever refunded, any of the subscriber fees, monthly and prepaid that they collected in bad faith for the months in which they were secretly working on the NGE while publicly claiming "CU was here to stay". That is where they could be in real trouble.
SOE and LEC, during the time of lies and deceit that led up to the NGE stole FAR more money than the average bank robber. $3.7 million (assuming 254K subscribers) multiplied by however many months they were working on the NGE. And I think it goes back a lot longer than we've ever been told. I think they started working on the NGE BEFORE the CU was even released. I think that the CU was always a fraud, that it was nothing more than a necessary bridge to convert the original game to the NGE, and was never intended to be a permanent game system.
Only way that will ever be proven or dis proven is a full blown investigation into SOE and LEC.
Oh, it's been mentioned that SOE hasn't had ANYTHING succeed since the NGE... What is going to be interesting is seeing if the same thing happens with LEC. I, for one, have no intention of buying anything from them.
Whether or not anyone involved with the NGE gets prosecuted or not, or whether SOE or LEC ever lose a class action lawsuit, the damage is done. The NGE is doomed, really is dead already, only kept alive out of pure stubbornness and LEC's willingness to pimp the Star Wars name for a cheap buck, even if it devalues it. The current game and development team are a pure joke.
SOE has become synonymous with "it's not a question of IF they will screw you over if you play one of their games, it's a question of WHEN, and HOW MANY times they will do it". And, as we know, all the principals involved in the NGE, from Smed and Ward on down are "damaged goods" who will negatively impact any company or product they are associated with due to the NGE blood on their hands.
It's slow justice, but it's justice.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free
Can you name me another game changing from RPG to FPS "on the fly" ?
The right procedure for this change without $OE looking like thieves would have been.
Announcing the shutdown of Star Wars Galaxies an empire Divided. Followed by announcing the new game with Star Wars theme for example "Star Wars FPS nightmare" .. this would have been more honest and would not look like thievery... But they tried to milk customers letting them believe its what they bought ..just ..."enhanced"...(a ridiculous term considering the current crap)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Jeff Freeman stated that he thought that was what they should do... Announce the shutdown of the CU, and the NGE as a new game.
SOE actually defrauded LEC in that as well... The NGE is a sequel, not the original game.
For a subscription that costs $0.50 a day you sure do expect alot.
I used to love the TV show Newsradio................ until Phil Hartmans wife killed him and they replaced him with Jon Lovitz. NBC promised me a show with Phil Hartman and then the show changed.
Can I sue Phil Hartmans wife for taking my show away?
well i can't resist ...
never heard of Smedley died so no need to change anything 2005 , right ?
Another hint the game was never better then PRE CU subscription wise
and current version the low point.
$OE can expect now a $0.00 per day from about 250k people and obviously thats by far better then $0.50 per day according to $OE and their fanbois
(personally i like $125k per day so if you don't mind that amount of money contact me i will surely find a use for it ) - having a big amount of customer requires too much counting of $,so they asked Nancy and while she was already on the "reading" prob she solved the "subscription counting" prob on the fly too ...grats $OE-
btw you should consider to start blame Mrs. Hartman for loosing Phil Hartman on the show . You can't sue her tho, cause you can't get her in prisoner's box. But with John S. in our case it is still possible.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Alot to answer for indeed, but for them to actually answer for it is dificult as you said almost every meeting ends with gag orders, anyone who can say anything against them as proof cant do so under law, the law which SOE has violated, I sorta agree the law is grey in the new area, but u cant sign off ur right and u cant agree to be defrauded.
The following links might intrest you and others perhaps>
Jumping Through EULA Hoops ("Unconscionable" is a legal term used to void contracts that are unfair to one party because of the other party's superior bargaining power. By my reading, that makes end-user license agreements (EULAs) unenforceable.)
EULA Analyzer Beta Version 1.1 ( A cool (and free!) application called EULA Analyzer lets you drag and drop any EULA legalese into its Analyzer, which will scan the text for key phrases)
Dangerous Terms: A User's Guide to EULAs (We've all seen them – windows that pop up before you install a new piece of software, full of legalese. To complete the install, you have to scroll through 60 screens of dense text and then click an "I Agree" button. Sometimes you don't even have to scroll through to click the button. Other times, there is no button because merely opening your new gadget means that you've "agreed" to the chunk of legalese.)
Backup Service EULAs Warrant a Closer Look ( It comes as no surprise when you read a EULA to see it disclaims all warranties and excludes all damages. But one reader recently got to thinking about this in regards to the online backup services he was evaluating for purchase. Since backup vendors are in the reliability business, would the good ones perhaps be less prone to disclaiming all responsibility?)
Hey Reklaw thanks for these links, they're right on topic, and I'm gonna check 'em out. Nice post
Wow, I just read the first article and it's so darn good I'm copying it here now for anyone to see at a glance. Great stuff Reklaw!
"Part of the problem is that EULAs aren't negotiated; they are simply agreed to. There is no discussion between the user and the vendor. You click "Yes" to use the software on the vendor's terms or look elsewhere. I understand the interests of the company here, but it is hard to think of this kind of mass-market contracting as a bargaining process.
The tide may be turning. Earlier this year, a California appeals court struck down a mandatory arbitration clause in T-Mobile's EULA. In that case, Gatton v. T-Mobile, the court decided that, because the agreement was written by a party with superior bargaining strength and the customer was given no ability to negotiate—just a simple yes/no choice—the contract was unconscionable. To which I say: Well, duh—what took so long?
Another decision that should be of particular concern to PC Magazine readers was handed down recently in New York State. Blue Coat Systems had decided it could contractually forbid customers from criticizing its products. It did so by inserting an "antibenchmarking" clause into its EULA. Seems it didn't want any customers comparing its proxy servers with the competition's. The state attorney general's office filed suit, at which point Blue Coat quickly settled, paid a small fine, and removed the clause from its contracts. Amen.
I wonder what kind of EULAs we have violated by benchmarking products that come into PC Magazine Labs. Turns out we published a review of VMware Workstation without the company's approval, as required in its EULA. Yeah, sorry about that, guys.
Common sense tells me that EULAs are pitiful excuses for fair contracts. It is time for consumers to have a choice that extends beyond "yes" or "no." Note to lawyers: All EULAs are unconscionable.
Dan Costa"
"First ones now will later be last, oh the times they are a'changin'"
Bob Dylan
Sing it one more time! lol
Alot to answer for indeed, but for them to actually answer for it is dificult as you said almost every meeting ends with gag orders, anyone who can say anything against them as proof cant do so under law, the law which SOE has violated, I sorta agree the law is grey in the new area, but u cant sign off ur right and u cant agree to be defrauded.
It is a real paradox that the NDA legal restrictions prevent people from providing potentially damning evidence, but that is in fact how they are used at times. A very close friend of mine was unlawfully dismissed. He was offered a whack of cash by the company dismissing him (hostile takeover). To take the cash he had to sign an NDA saying that he wouldn't discuss the unlawful dismal, and that he would not take any legal action against them.
So, we all know that SOE is handy with NDA's. It's no stretch at all to imagine that this has been part of their damage control strategy.
Anytime I see staff leaving a corporation, and I hear allegations of fraud etc., and I see the letters NDA, I smell manure.
So does no public legal action mean no wrong was done? Certainly not. It's more likely it means that someone has mastered the use of NDAs. Or at least they think they have. Time will tell. If I was in on these scams and cover ups, I don't know how I'd look at myself in the mirror or ever get a good night sleep.
If you subscribed to a service for the sole reason to listen to this broadcast, and it was an advertised feature, then yes, you should be entitled to a refund if the show was cancelled. Your example is more like Sirius deciding to stop broadcasting Howard Stern, despite prominently advertising him. They would probably owe refunds to those that picked Sirius over XM because of this "feature".
Jedi accounts in pre-NGE sold for as much as $2k on eBay. They are still worth $300 to $500, for elder Jedi, even now. There is a real world price that has been paid for said items and this does not bode well for SOE or any other MMO that would deny there is a real world value attached to in game items and accomplishments. The precedent was SET the moment someone paid real money. The IRS has looked into these transactions as a source of revenue already. They may be subject to income tax.
There is already legal action, interest from government agencies, and pissed on customers. It is only a matter of time before all of these consumer relationships become much more defined. SOE will be a root cause of any legislation passed. At least they will have a legacy, even if it is in case law books...
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
If you subscribed to a service for the sole reason to listen to this broadcast, and it was an advertised feature, then yes, you should be entitled to a refund if the show was cancelled. Your example is more like Sirius deciding to stop broadcasting Howard Stern, despite prominently advertising him. They would probably owe refunds to those that picked Sirius over XM because of this "feature".
Jedi accounts in pre-NGE sold for as much as $2k on eBay. They are still worth $300 to $500, for elder Jedi, even now. There is a real world price that has been paid for said items and this does not bode well for SOE or any other MMO that would deny there is a real world value attached to in game items and accomplishments. The precedent was SET the moment someone paid real money. The IRS has looked into these transactions as a source of revenue already. They may be subject to income tax.
There is already legal action, interest from government agencies, and pissed on customers. It is only a matter of time before all of these consumer relationships become much more defined. SOE will be a root cause of any legislation passed. At least they will have a legacy, even if it is in case law books...
Great post. I'd add that the television show example, to be a fair comparison would be more like this:
Subscribe to this service and you will receive access to a certain television show. Meanwhile the executives at the studio have already decided to cancel that t.v. show and keep your money. They've also decided to get your money by advertising the show as part of the service package, and they've decided to withhold information about its impending cancellation for the purpose of getting your subscription money under false pretenses.
I hope you can see the important differences here gutboy. I also hope you can truly see what you've chosen to defend and support. I don't know if this is a job for you or what, but I at least hope you know what it is your really standing up for. The alternative is that someone has truly convinced you that it's ok to sell something you know you're going to cancel, without informing the customer.
For damaging a game? Seriously, you think this is a reasonable course of action? This entire thread is full of people that are so far over the edge over a stupid game they've lost sight of reality.
Let it go folks, just let it go.
So people should be allowed to get away with fraud and grand theft (in the millions of dollars) just because it's a game?
If that is accepted, who can ever trust a MMO? This industry is doomed to become a complete scam if that is the case.
For the love of God!!!!
You paid for the game that you wanted to play. They changed that game so i assume you stopped paying for it. They didnt steal from you. They provided a product that you could pay for or not.
What you guys have to figure out is they SOE did not change Your game, they change Their game. At no point in time did you own any of SWG, not even your own character.
Any gaming company can change thier games at any point without consulting the customer at all. They can completely cancel the game without consulting the customer first.
Most wont do it to the point that SOE did with SWG but it is within thier rights to do so.
What SOE did to SWG sucked, but thats all it did, Sucked. It wasnt illegal, it wasnt even immoral.
I will believe that the NGE was illegal as soon as someone takes them to court for it an wins. I dont think that is going to happen though. But more power to you if you decide to do it.
I dont understand why SWG is the only game that people can not move on from. EQ, UO, DAOC, AC all changed. Even WoW has gone through unpopular changes. SWG is not alone in this. AC2 was just up and cancelled right after an expansion and you dont see those guys as upset about it as you are. At least some facet of the game you liked is still here, but then im sure you all would be happier if it was dead.
The argument you make is valid, IF they would have refunded pre-paid time. Further, virtual items have had values applied to them in Chinese court cases. People sell virtual items on eBay in the U.S. SOE even has a station exchange service that applies a real world value to in game items. SOE accepts real currency in exchange for maintaining a virtual world, with player's acquired goods. The goods take a certain, predictable amount of game time to obtain. A real, fixed value can be ascertained for items that are "desirable" because of this predicability.
I do not think you have the right background or information to comment on legalities SAFWD. You assume that the consumer has no rights at all and you are just flat wrong. The consumer does have the right to assume that their progress will not be erased. It is a reasonable and prudent thing to assume regarding this type of service.
SOE keeping pre-paid money, despite the drastic changes applied opens them up to liability. IF they would have refunded all those that pre-paid, in addition to the refunds for ToOW, then they might have been OK. It would still be debatable about the invalidation of previous progress, however.
This is why there are courts, to determine and judge based on the law. There are precedents in this instance and if this were to go to court, then I think SOE might be surprised how badly things go for them.
Go look at Ebay right now for SWG items, Credits or what not.Yeah there is nothing on there. I did the same with EQ2 as well and I couldn't find anything besides the game cards from the EQ2 online card game. Also Station Exchange is only in one SOE game right now EQ2 I don't see SWG or any of SOE's other games on that list. Also just to remind you, this isn't China this is the U.S. we don't have the same laws as China will have. And as much as we joke around about it in game money farming is a job over there.
As for SOE keeping money from people who did pre-pay allow me to put this up from the SWG Terms of Use. This is what you must click "I Accept" before even logging into the game.
"5. We describe our fees for playing the Game and billing procedures related to the Account on the web at a hotlink located at http://www.starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com (“the Game Site”). The fees for the Game and billing procedures set forth on the Game Site are incorporated herein by reference and are subject to change at any time. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, each time your Account comes up for renewal, we have the right to automatically charge your credit card the then-current renewal fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated. In the event that we choose to make a paid game card available, the procedures associated with such game card will be set forth on the web at a hotlink located at the Game Site . We are under no obligation to make a game card available for the Game. You may terminate your Account at any time through the Account registration process. If you terminate your Account during your initial free period, your account will be closed at the end of the free period and you will not be billed. If you terminate your Account during any subscription cycle, your Account will be closed at the end of the then-current cycle and you will not be billed again unless you affirmatively reopen the Account. We do not give full or partial refunds for subscription periods that you have purchased."
I should note that it's been in the Terms of Use from the start of the game untill now. Still bring up that SOE did not offer any refunds for game time that was made with a pre-payment, SOE's Legal Team can and will point that out. They will also point out that you did from day one click "I Accept" meaning you accepted those terms to play the game. The Court may not like it, however you did say yes to that. Also SOE will point out that unless you have been banned from the game, that you where more then welcome to log in at any given time untill the game time that you did pay for was up.
See lets really look at all of this from a "legal" stand point.
Legally all we the Player own when we get an MMO is the Box, the Cd, any books that come with the game. When we pay our $15 or so dollars a month what we are doing for the most part is renting time and space on the game server. We don't really own our Toons or any Items or Money we have in game. Not only that legally we are not the ones who own SWG, LA "owns" it for the most part with SOE running it.
How will the Courts look at this in terms of the NGE? SOE came up with the idea, LA gave SOE their blessing to go ahead with it. The Player Base was told about the changes and given time to do whatever they wanted. Again the Courts may not like it, however legally LA gave the go ahead to do it. And the Player Base "was" given warning. So as much as you will hate to hear it legally SOE/LA did no wrong, ethically however SOE/LA did do wrong.
As for Items that SOE put in with ToOW? Well you can bring that up too, and SOE will point out that they did put those items in the game. Legally as long as those items are in the Game Files, SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Not only that if you look at any MMO or Game on the market and can get into the Art Files you will find that at times their are items in the game that are just not used. Really that is nothing new, EA had tons of Artwork and Items in UO that never got used. Yes it is SOE's legal right to do that.
So really legally SOE hasn't done anything wrong. Better still chances are you'd have the Court look at the fact that SWG is in the long run just a game. Now unless you ended up being harmed in some way by the game changes, SOE and LA had their legal rights to do whatever the hell they wanted.
Again you and maybe even the Courts may not like it, however it was their right to do so.
Re. your EULA defense, fyi:"Part of the problem is that EULAs aren't negotiated; they are simply agreed to. There is no discussion between the user and the vendor. You click "Yes" to use the software on the vendor's terms or look elsewhere. I understand the interests of the company here, but it is hard to think of this kind of mass-market contracting as a bargaining process.
The tide may be turning. Earlier this year, a California appeals court struck down a mandatory arbitration clause in T-Mobile's EULA. In that case, Gatton v. T-Mobile, the court decided that, because the agreement was written by a party with superior bargaining strength and the customer was given no ability to negotiate—just a simple yes/no choice—the contract was unconscionable. To which I say: Well, duh—what took so long?
Another decision that should be of particular concern to PC Magazine readers was handed down recently in New York State. Blue Coat Systems had decided it could contractually forbid customers from criticizing its products. It did so by inserting an "antibenchmarking" clause into its EULA. Seems it didn't want any customers comparing its proxy servers with the competition's. The state attorney general's office filed suit, at which point Blue Coat quickly settled, paid a small fine, and removed the clause from its contracts. Amen.
I wonder what kind of EULAs we have violated by benchmarking products that come into PC Magazine Labs. Turns out we published a review of VMware Workstation without the company's approval, as required in its EULA. Yeah, sorry about that, guys.
Common sense tells me that EULAs are pitiful excuses for fair contracts. It is time for consumers to have a choice that extends beyond "yes" or "no." Note to lawyers: All EULAs are unconscionable.
Dan Costa"
Regarding did nothing illegal, as I've mentioned before accepting money under false pretenses is fraud, and a criminal offence in my jurisdiction. If SOE/LA had been honest about their plans to delete things BEFORE they accepted everyone's money, this would be a non-issue, as you rightly suggest. Timing is everything here. They DID NOT provide information about their plans to delete advertised items and features until THE DAY AFTER they accepted all of our money.
Truthful information about a service is a moral and legal obligation on the part of the service provider. In fact, I don't have to pay anything for that. It's the law.
As I've mentioned in another post, your example would be more accurate if a tv service provider advertised a channel they were planning to cancel, but they didn't tell anyone of their cancellation plans until after they had received everyone's money, for a package that included that channel.
At this point I'm convinced that anyone who can't see this, doesn't want to see it because the truth is too threatening or disturbing.
"Regarding did nothing illegal, as I've mentioned before accepting money under false pretenses is fraud, and a criminal offence in my jurisdiction. If SOE/LA had been honest about their plans to delete things BEFORE they accepted everyone's money, this would be a non-issue, as you rightly suggest. Timing is everything here. They DID NOT provide information about their plans to delete advertised items and features until THE DAY AFTER they accepted all of our money."
Exactly why I will never touch another SOE product no matter what it is. This is not the only time SOE flat out lied.
Your best legal action is to support not giving SOE one more cent and to spread the word to others why they should not support a company like SOE. Anything beyond that is a waiste of time in my opinion.
SHOHADAKU
I found a Jedi account for sale, with bidders, pretty easily:
http://cgi.ebay.com/starwars-galaxies-collectors-with-elder-jedi-account_W0QQitemZ130214389636QQihZ003QQcategoryZ62053QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
As I said, a real world value has been assigned to these items. The IRS is looking at ways to tax personal gains from the sale of MMO items. You can look that one up yourself. China's example is indeed relevant, because our legal system in the U.S. does consider International law.
Just because you are FORCED to accept an EULA for service, it does not make it a LEGAL agreement. This has been proven in various court cases already. The "agreements" are almost universally unenforceable when they go to court, because they are far too biased against the consumer. Clinging to those phrases in the EULA as a defense, SOE will fail.
I would love to see a class action go forward. It would be even better to see a state AG go for a criminal case. By Arc's English, I would assume he is English. SOE has International trouble here. The only thing that will save them at this point is apathy and statute of limitations.
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free