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Whats everyone opinion on why this game isnt super big?
onlinenow225
Member Posts: 381
Ive heard its got a steady amount of people playing but why is it not big? (Big as in... umm 2x the subs it has now i guess)
So far the only thing ive noticed that is not easy to do it soloing. (im only level 20 MA/DA Scrapper)
But that could just be the class i chose. Anyways the games awsome, so many different things you can do for character customization. The amount of unique character development is almost limitless.
And to boot its fun.
Comments
City of Heroes has a few reasons it's not as big as some MMOs:
-Superheroes are much more of a niche market than Fantasy.
-The game has had little to no marketing.
-There was no shelf presence for a long time before Good vs Evil edition.
That said, the game should be growing in the coming months because:
-The Superhero market has been growing substantially lately thanks to comics becoming more mainstream and their movies being so succesful.
-NC Soft is throwing lots of $$ at City of Heroes/Villains at the moment, that should translate to more marketing soon.
-There are rumors of a paid expansion coming soon, most likely next year. That will generate a lot of buzz and get CoH/V some shelf space.
-Lightslinger
Legion of Valor - Be part of the legend!
legionofvalor.guildportal.com
Also, regarding your Martial Arts / Super Reflexes Scrapper, that's going to be an amazing character in just a few levels.
At level 22 you can buy Single Origin Enhancements that will make your Scrapper not only able to solo, but very, very powerful.
Super Reflexes is probably the latest blooming defense set for Scrappers, but when it does bloom it is amazing. For the later levels, it's arguably the best PVE armor in the game.
-Lightslinger
Legion of Valor - Be part of the legend!
legionofvalor.guildportal.com
I think the mission system is part of it, too. I don't really mind it, but the limited number of tile sets is much maligned by players that don't stay with the game. Also, while the game can definitely be soloed by most ATs, it's usually significantly slower to do so, which means seeing a lot more of those same tile sets. The MMO market's been moving in a "more solo" direction for awhile, mainly due to player expectations, and those players have almost certainly become more used to a wider variety of environments than the CoX engine and art department allow for.
Of course, the tile set issue is much less of a problem when teaming, as it becomes more about doing your job on the team rather than looking at the wallpaper; teams tend to move very quickly, so tankers need to move from group to group, defenders need to keep those buffs/debuffs running, controllers need to make sure the dangerous mobs are locked down, et cetera. When you're soloing, you're generally looking at the same group of 3 or 4 mobs for the whole mission, the same walls, floors and ceilings, and you don't have anyone to talk to unless you belong to a global channel (which most new players won't even know about).
Another problem is that the low level experience is, and has been, somewhat unpleasant for most ATs due to the way the enhancement system is set up. I can sum up low level Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers and Tankers in a couple of lines:
Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit, Miss, Miss, out of endurance, Run, Run, Run, Rest, attack, Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit, Miss, Hit, Victory (or defeat), wait for Rest to recharge, wait for health/endurance to recover on its own, or hope you got lucky and looted a Catch a Breath and/or Respite.
Since training origins are essentially useless, your powers just don't work well until at least level 12. Typically, new players of any MMO tend to solo through the beginning of the game until they feel comfortable with the controls and the way things work, but there's a high risk that new CoX players will get sick of the game long before level 12 if they haven't been teaming, because they'll constantly be missing and running out of endurance. CoX just doesn't offer a very good introductory experience in that regard.
Now, if you've managed to play to the Dual Origin or Single Origin levels, you know that you'll eventually get past that pain, you know that it's pretty easy to get a team, even at level 2, to help speed you through it, but your average new player isn't going to have any idea that the game improves, or that Sewer Teams are a good idea even if you don't have a clue what you're doing. Most games start out easy and get harder as you go, but CoX actually works the opposite way in some aspects; it starts off a pain in the butt, and eventually gets really enjoyable. That makes it a hard sell to newbies with previous MMO experience.
The devs have actually addressed one of your main concerns in Issue 12. Now low level characters will have a much higher ToHit number which will stop most of the missing in the lower levels.
I completely agree about the lack of variety in the tilesets, hopefully the larger art team will help with that.
-Lightslinger
Legion of Valor - Be part of the legend!
legionofvalor.guildportal.com
If WoW didn't exist, this would be a "big" game. They just blew all expectations out of the water.
A stable population over 100,000 used to be all a game could ask for. There are plenty of famous and foundational games, like Asheron's Call, who at their best never hit what CoH does at it's lowest.
Sure, you had breakout hits like Everquest, who were flitting around half a million briefly (but got crushed by WoW). And there are non-American games like Lineage or FF XI that go huge, but the different audience makes it hard to compare. And a hit like Star Wars: Galaxies got to 300,000 because it's such a good brand. Yet they too have collapsed since NGE.
Heck, even LotrO in it's brief life hit 200k then crashed back to 150.
So CoH, which hangs out between 130k and 200k with relative stability, is an pretty big success. I think most new launches should only hope to be so successful. That said, this is what they have working against them:
Not "high fantasy" (medieval) or sci-fi. Both of those tend to get taken more seriously than superheroes do. You'd think the wave of superhero movies over the last few years would have changed that, but still playing at superheroes is considered more childish than shooting aliens with rayguns or poking elves with swords.
Not a known IP. Wow came on the heels of the Warcraft / Starcraft / Diablo lineage. Blizzard had loyal customers who'd never played an MMO before all ready for their new product. Obviously SW:G had that, LotrO has that, DDO had that. Most squander it, (frequently by hiring Turbine) but still a known brand is very valuable.
City of Heroes was a brand new line and while it may one day develop into a major brand (talk of console spinoffs, for example), that alone didn't pull anyone in.
New development studio. Cryptic was brand new. And savvy customers knew that. But more than that, it showed. A lot of their early design shows rookie mistakes. They've learned from it and have improved the game over time. But early players could easily come in and say "No PvP? Horrible imbalance? Cookie-cutter missions? I'm out."
Don't underestimate that. The game launched in May of 2004. It hit 170k in June of that year. By December it had crashed to 125k. That is the biggeest hit the game has taken - bigger than anything the ED nerfs did to them. And then Christmas sales helped, but they were still churning for a while.
Most of the balancing, (aka "nerfing") took place in 2005. Yet 2005 was a growth year. Nobody likes nerfs but having a situation that requires them in the first place is worse.
Smaller development budget
Although the team has gone up and down in size, they've never had the money and manpower of a WoW. In fact, as has been discussed recently for most of 2007 they were operating with only 15 people. It's very difficult to compete against studios of 100s with those numbers.
Smaller advertising budget
Of course word of mouth also helps, so the big get bigger. (My sister has never played a computer game in her life, but she knows WoW because, in her words "I lived on a college dorm - it's impossible to not know.") Yet there's something to be said for traditional advertising. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like this - many of whom may never have played an MMO before - who don't even know about it.
Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
I like the game and am still subbed to it but its too repetitive and generic.
That is its major downfall. I understand that some of that is a strength.
If they had more custom content and directed stuff in addition to its dynamic but generic content it would be destroying other MMORPGs most likely.
CoX has had other problems in the past that may have alienated people and I dunno maybe its too late now. But as it currently stands that is how it is I think.
The Dev team is at some point releasing user-generated story arcs, which will go a long way to alleviating the monotony and freeing up developer time.
I mean it sounds like a nice tool and I'm in favor of its existance. However, we won't be getting the ability to craft new tilesets, enemies, or AIs. Basically it comes down to
1) Pick a location
2) Pick an enemy type
3) Name the boss at the end
4) Play Mad Libs with the dialog
Aha <CHARACTERNAME>! I knew you'd show up after I stole the <UNIQUE ITEM>. But once I dispatch you I will finally be able to <EVIL PLAN>!
That does not sound less monotonous to me. And I don't think it will free up Developer time because unless their content will inevitably be more involved than anything they allow us to do.
Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
It WAS big a few years ago. ALOT of people have played and loved it. Problem is and was there really wasn't enough content to keep people for too long. Badge Collections and bases and stuff are cool, but not enough really to retain the high volume of players.
Depends on who you ask. While MMOCharts.com puts LOTRO at 200k, this site puts it at 300k as of Dec 07 and well over CoX's peak at just under 200k. But Turbine never releases figures, so no one knows for certain.
The repetitiveness of missions and the frustration of the early levels pretty well covers why didn't stick around. I loved the CharGen, I really liked the spec system. But I wasn't looking to grind near identical instanced missions endlessly. I was really surprised that the game seemed to be, from playing in the trial, predominately instancing. I didn't expect that and it was a disappointment. If not for that, I'd have subbed and stuck around.
So to me, not only was it a niche market for not being medieval or sci-fi, but it was also for a fairly small demographic that likes instancing. Even DDO, with it's major IP, saw a backlash over instancing. I don't think they ever reached even 100k. It's a tough sell.
There is also the fact that the market is really competitive, lately. A lot of new games have launched and even more hyped ones are on the horizon. Holding onto subscribers is tough in this environment.
I think CoX beat the curve, considering everything.
Previous played: SWG (pre-NGE), DAoC, CoH, Anarchy Online, DDO, Champions Online Beta, LOTRO, GW2, SWTOR
I think it is a very casual-friendly game. True, a lot of the content is pretty repetitive, but the archetypes play very differently; even different power sets in the same archetype favor different playing styles. If you are not a power-leveling fool, there is enough content in your alts and archetypes to have fun for a long time.
I would have to say advertising is a place they need to show some improvement.
If they would update their graphics like Anarchy Online is doing. That will bring them some new and old subs.
I have been MMO jumping the past couple of months and I finally settled down to COH. I am burnt out on the Fantasy genre. I have played Fantasy sine UO to EQ2 and everything in between. COH is a breath of fresh air, just like Tabula Rasa. With Conan and Warhammer coming out, I doubt it affects COH. But when Champions releases, that will be a different story.
To anyone who says CoX is "too repetitive" and thats why it doesnt have more subs, what is the reason for WoW's success then?
I dont see how WoW (or really any EQ mould high fantasy MMO) is any less repetitive than CoX.
Any MMO almost by definition is going to feature some level of repetition due to the character development aspects and also due to the fact that the world has to be finite in scope.
I think its more that the super hero genre is a niche and people are less forgiving than they would be with a fantasy universe.
When the entire world is basically forests, mountains, desert/ice/lava areas and every structure is a medieval style fort/castle/dungeon/town, people say 'well sure, its fantasy!'
When you're talking about an urban setting, somehow offices and factories all looking the same (which is actually kind of realistic - Ive been in hundreds of RL office buildings and there isnt a lot of difference), bothers people more.
Me and the wife played at launch...within 2 months we were burnt out on it.
Tried again a yr later...didnt take 3 weeks for boredom to kick in. Have never tried it since.
Might use a code, and resub myself just to see my old characters(33ish mutant/scrapper on Guardian). She likes to play EQ2 with our daughter. She mentioned trying again, but I dont think she has her info anymore....dur!!!!! heh
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
The fact is the dynamic content is by necessity genreic and therefore the repetition becomes obvious.
All MMOs are repetitive, even sandbox games. Or arguably especailly sandbox games. All MMOs are actually pretty generic due to the shared world.
But the pattern is so obvious in CoX. Whereas in WoW they mask it through various means. Sure when you abstract it out the repetition of WoW is obvious but the custom stuff makes it easy to fool yourself that it is not that repetitive. And when it comes to fiction people WANT to fool themselves, you just need to grease the wheels so that they can.
Also like someone else mentioned the first 15 levels or so are pretty boring for me. But most RPGs are that way for me. Not just MMORPGs, all RPGs. So I didn't mention that part.
There are a few reasons why it isn't that big and the impact varies on the individual
1.) The superhero genre is a niche category to begin with.
2.) It came out a bit before WoW.
3.) As people have said, the maps really can make things feel repetitive.
4.) People don't enjoy the character growth concept as much -- the fact that they don't get replacement powers eliminates what is perceived to be a sense of accomplishment (no fireball level 4 for example). It was an intentional desgin decision to see powers grow over time but I think that it turns some people off.
5.) SImilarly, the lack of loot to show off, even with salvage and recipes in the game, I think turns off some people.
6.) PvP was handled poorly, desgined as an afterthought.
7.) The game was designed around experiencing various power combinations -- altitis was encouraged over endgame and that runs against the grain of Achiever types. Also #3 becomes a bigger issue running alts through the game.
For potential players considering playing City of Heroes/Villains, don't write off the game because of the above list -- those items listed do not mean the game is crap. Cryptic and now NcSoft did a lot right and clearly a good number of people enjoy the game and see the replay value. See http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1551691#1551691 for a longer review of the good and the bad ( ' :
Me and the wife played at launch...within 2 months we were burnt out on it.
Tried again a yr later...didnt take 3 weeks for boredom to kick in. Have never tried it since.
Might use a code, and resub myself just to see my old characters(33ish mutant/scrapper on Guardian). She likes to play EQ2 with our daughter. She mentioned trying again, but I dont think she has her info anymore....dur!!!!! heh
You should defenitely give it a try. I just started back a few months ago and I'm having a blast. The game does have some drawbacks but it is great for what it is. Personally part of the fun is getting to the next level so you can select new powers or select extra enhancement slots. This is one of the only games that really puts the emphasis on action. It is one of the best to just jump in and start smashing things or blowing things up. I also love being in a well balanced group with everyone doing their part. It's great when everyone is firing off powers and enemies are flying everywhere. Seriously though, if it's been a while, check it out. They have added a lot of stuff and if they release a new paid expansion next year I think it could experience a second life.
Oh wow... CoH/CoV.... my first MMORPG. We had a lot of fun together... not sure if it's the fact that it was my first, but I have to say while it lasted it was the greatest game I've played. A fantastic group-oriented community, awesome combat, and practically limitless character/costume creation. I loved this game. But it has really over time become a love/hate relationship for me.
The game has (well, had) the potential to become big. At this point it is simply too old... in a sense it isn't, but the MMORPG community is an extremely picky crowd with high expectations. Anything over two years old (excluding WoW) is considered moot in the eyes of many.
So anyways, it did have potential. This game was such a blast for me when it lasted. But it had so many irritating things that are essential to me that were missing, it really aggravated me alot. I keep hoping that they would eventually do these things but they never did/never will:
- The game had a very successful market for it's lack of marketting. Tbh I don't even remember how I even heard about this game a couple years back. The game was not as popular as it was partly because of this.
- Extremely repetitive missions. Don't get me wrong, the combat is fun. It does actually feel like a comic book when fighting, and it is like a completely different type of game as the types we see today. It's complete madness, but fun and to a point where it isn't complete button mashing. The missions were all the freakin' same thing, though. There are literally about several different types of missions and maybe 7 maps to do those missions in... if they did at least a little better job at making missions more interesting then I might still be playing today.
- Complete lack of end-game content. Though I have to admit, they did try adding some. I remember the excitement of trying to get to level 50 with my main character... I played an Illusion/Storm controller. Was a blast. Had way too much fun playing the game... until I finally made end-game. I kept asking myself, "now what?" And sadly, there wasn't much. That is single-handedly the most irritating problem with this game to me. You have a couple choices once you make level 50:
1.) Farm mindlessly and PL others for influence (the in-game's currency for "gold" for people who have never played the game that are reading this) so you can buy the perfect enhancements to completely max out your character... which does no good anyways since you basically can't do much with your character once at main level anyway.
2.) Do the few amount of task forces they have to offer, which shouldn't take you any longer than 2 weeks to do all of them if you really wanted to... not to mention there is little reward for doing so other than getting the badges and some extra slightly beneficial perma-buffs.
3.) Collect badges... I don't know about you but this really isn't fun to me... my main character has less than 100 I think (which would be considered a sad and pathetic thing by most in-game).
4.) Create another character, or if you get main level, an "epic" archetype character. I tried the squid forms, and really, they were not fun at all for me. It felt to me as if the uniqueness of my character was completely sucked out. You couldn't choose between any other powers if you chose the "epic" archetypes, while the other archetypes gain much more diversity. I went ahead and just made other archetypes (which in the end were a lot more interesting) rather than play the "epics". And even then, it got dull fast since it was the same old same old feeling with my level 50 already doing all of them.
5.) Host/Enter costume contests... these are pretty entertaining, actually. Not too many games that have as many player created events as CoX.
They tried PvP... the thing is that PvP with the way the game was designed just doesn't make much sense and is completely unfair based on certain archetypes. It's a ghost town in the three designated PvP areas (I think they've added more a couple months ago, not sure). Either way, the game has pretty much nothing to do. It was an extreme disappointment for me. I played for about 2 months after I got to max until I just got tired of it... tried again three months after hoping any of it changed. Made another character, but only got him to level 42 when I said, "What's the point?" And from then haven't played since.
Overall, in my opinion, the game is like a really good book. Great for the first read... but after a long while it gets tiring reading it over and over again when you know what to expect. The game lacks any end-game content, basically... that is, at least the way I see it, it's main flaw in why it doesn't have the consistent amount of players that it sorely disserves... just wish that eventually they'll make the game worth playing again for me...
Well by "big" I think the OP is referring to That Other Game's unusually high subscription numbers? If you ignore that one game, CoX is right up there with the other big name MMO's. Last I checked they had around 175k subs which turns a nice profit and gives a healthy player population.
Every AT can solo, some obviously better than others. The Mastermind for example is a god at soloing once they get their 6th pet. You picked Dark Armor for your secondary which is an endurance hog. Make sure at 21 you drop 2 more slots into Stamina to help boost your endurance recovery.
Scrappers in general solo pretty well since they are the high dmg AT for heroes. Yes, blasters can match our damage, but they are squishy. You can help out your defense if you get the Fighting powerpool and get Tough and Weave. The effects will stack with your Dark Armor powers.
i think it's because of armor, weapon, and item customization/collection. Thats the main thing in MMOs for most people and it wasn't in COH in the beginning (i believe both are now)
For me and my former supergroup gang, it was the repetitive feel. I believe others in the thread refer to the tilesets, which we held as sizeable part of it. Reskinning the instance halls had only a temporary boost. Someone questioned how it was different than WoW in this regard. Its true there is some repetition in WoW, but I've been months into both games, and have not seen nearly as much there. WoW especially has the advantage in the "outdoor" areas which are vastly different. Even in dungeon/raiding vs. taskgroups in CoX, I often see unique setups in the WoW dungeons whereas I've been on taskgroups that send you into the same door mission setups as you would normally do. (One nice exception to this that comes to mind was the Terra Volta reactor, but as I recall, even it has several cookie-cutter door missions leading up to the final event)
There are increasing improvements. The expansion zones seem to keep getting better, though even by the time of the second Rikti invasion, many of the Rikti corridors often looked like reskins of common halls.
One other point that was eventually tiresome, but not previously mentioned I think, was the user interface. After playing several other MMOs, it felt clunky, even restrictive. I was not the only one to comment on this. I convinced some skilled adult players to leave their MMOs and try CoX only to have them leave because of the UI. The inability to more fluidly move your camera angle in 360 to study the whole battlefield was one sighted problem. I didn't know all the lingo involved, though I understood the fluidity issue having played the comparison in games like WoW, LotRO, and TR. Someone referred to CoX as "top down", which I gather meant that the camera axis started at the character's head. I've heard the "Midnight" expansion is offering different UI's, which is grand, but am unsure whether the camera movement issues are addressed as well.
Now why isn't CoX a huge success? Some ppl have pointed some strong points, and I'd like to comment on them:
- PvP doesn't happen everywhere: you have to go someplace to spar with your friend - that sucks.
- Missions are repetitive but not because of the maps (which could be more diverse) - it's because of the objectives: kill all enemies, find N things, kill all enemies inside the base - doesn't change much from that. If only we had more ways to solve missions (like D&DO has...)...
- It's not soloable after lvl 20-25 (except if you're playing with a Mastermind). If you solo, you'll take forever to get to max. So you must play at all times in a group - that sucks.
But the game is improving and it seems that the move from Cryptic to NCSoft was a blessing, as many improvements have been done to the game - and the future ones seem exciting as well.
the most common problem i hear from people who sub to Wow is that they don't want to leave because that's where they know people. Not because they like the game. Someone mentioned earlier blizzard had massive franchises backing them up. the Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo nutcases are often worse than the Final Fantasy obsessed people. thats how the wow community started and grew along with a massive marketing budget. the huge population of Wow is where all the potential subs are. Since for many that is their first mmo they expect PvP which imho is counter-intuitive in an mmo. They are supposed to be team based so beating the snot out of your fellow players doesn't make sense to me. I was very annoyed when DDO added it and I'm glad COH hasn't folded.
What NCSoft really needs to do is advertise all the perks they give their players while asking why other companies don't do similar things. 10 new levels, 2 new races and no gametime for 40 bucks brand new when you have 10 million players is BS and every NCSoft customer should point that out. I will personally NEVER go back to a Blizzard mmo.
True. It has been a success, that's for sure, considering its market and its investment. It's just a smaller scale game and smaller scale goal. I can assure you that Blizzard intended on making WoW as successful as it is because it's proportional to how much money they put into it. But there's nothing wrong with making a profitable game in a niche market.
http://www.QuickQuests.com - The Minutes-A-Day MMORPG that won't consume your life
Now why isn't CoX a huge success? Some ppl have pointed some strong points, and I'd like to comment on them:
- PvP doesn't happen everywhere: you have to go someplace to spar with your friend - that sucks.
- Missions are repetitive but not because of the maps (which could be more diverse) - it's because of the objectives: kill all enemies, find N things, kill all enemies inside the base - doesn't change much from that. If only we had more ways to solve missions (like D&DO has...)...
- It's not soloable after lvl 20-25 (except if you're playing with a Mastermind). If you solo, you'll take forever to get to max. So you must play at all times in a group - that sucks.
But the game is improving and it seems that the move from Cryptic to NCSoft was a blessing, as many improvements have been done to the game - and the future ones seem exciting as well.
You dont know what you are talking about when you say that it's not soloable after lvl 25. This is probably the most solo friendly MMO game out there. You can set the difficulty level to suit your skill. I soloed a brute to 50 in 145 hours. Please dont spread false information!