my question is where do mercs fit in to all this. If you were a guild of 50 and a horde of 100 were coming in....would make perfect sense.
But most guilds which will be taking keeps will be the larger ones, 48 people shouldnt pose a problem, especially with city defenses et all. Mercs no longer really have a role in seiging
please people... we aren't talking world pvp here, we are talking guild based pvp activities. DaoC swg were all world pvp, these aren't. riddle m this How do you decide which guild takes a keep if anyone can get in? How do you protect against midnight raids without it being instanced? How do you allow guilds to want keeps, and actually reep benefits if tyhe average keep time was less then a day How do you open up pvp for more guilds without only allowing the uberguilds a shot at even taking one. It's called balance, your fantasy ideas of worthless pvp or different types, don't apply.
You obviously never played Shadowbane.
Guilds defended their keeps in the constant, persistent world. Only the strong survived attacks from the weaker, grouped up guilds.
-edit-
Blade you just proved to me you're not a real pvper. You're casual carebearer who wants everything without any sacrifice.
In shadowbane the way you defended your keep was by having dedicated players who were good and skilled. You had players who played at all hours to help defend against the keep.
You want your cake, but you don't want to work for it. And like a bad parent, Blizzard and Funcon give in and give you it all.
Well i'm not sure how it will play out, I am hoping you don't just get zoned straight to the battlekeep.
If you could hire a group of mercs to defend the path leading upto the keep zone then that would be nice, The attacking army should have to get through a zone to be able to attack the keep.
I guess we will have to wait and see, but it would be great to have some sort of pre-zone to the battle keep, effectively increasing the 48v48, just not all in the same zone at once.
I'll have multiple instances of a zone when there are a large number of players on over a camped beyond a joke for Quest content a seamless world would have any day. I community can turn very nasty fast in seamless worlds over disputes over content.
Other games have survived this. New MMOs today are adopting this "instanced" bullshit for quests and raid dungeons because the carebears who make up a large portion of gamers cry and when they cry it's loud and heard more often then the please from us who actually know how to play the game.
It all starts when someone who is less geared and lower level wants a camp of a mob that some higher lvl more geared char have. They cry and cry about it instead of leveling up and getting better gear to then kill the higher level. You wouldn't believe how many idiots cried in EQ because of this. How did I respond? Well I was doing the camping and I would just kill them to shut them up.
Leucent , i guess everyone has very different opinions on their ideal PvP experience. For me I would take 48v48 over 100v100 any day, I just feel like its a bit more controlled and you get a chance to use better tactics.
Also I hated in DaoC how you would fight for a keep and then after a goods nights sleep a small group has taken it. At least this way, while it may not be as dynamic, you can be there for the battle.
Maybe what they needed to do was have different types of keeps so that you could acheive both things and please more people at once, but you have to draw the line somewhere I guess!
When you played DAoC did you level all of the way up to 50 or linger around the lowbie battlegrounds?
dudes, srsly, PLAY A REAL MMO, then discuss whats good and bad. for example, in l2 we have a epic boss, which is also related to a end game quest. this boss spawns at regular intervals, so almost every time rivaling clans are there to fight for it. the boss itself is pretty easy to kill, but we've had nomerous times 100+vs100+ pvp there. and yes, those numbers are there cause of the pvp. so how will this work in AOC? say clan A goes for raid number 5, and clan B is determined to stop them and tries to camp the entrance or whatever. even if the zone is remote and with low population, all clan A has to do is bring more numbers till they fill the instance, and voila, free entrance. no way instancing is good in PVP game. but then again, they've already said this isnt a pvp game, the pvp is just added cause of the numerous requests
please people... we aren't talking world pvp here, we are talking guild based pvp activities. DaoC swg were all world pvp, these aren't. riddle m this How do you decide which guild takes a keep if anyone can get in? How do you protect against midnight raids without it being instanced? How do you allow guilds to want keeps, and actually reep benefits if tyhe average keep time was less then a day How do you open up pvp for more guilds without only allowing the uberguilds a shot at even taking one. It's called balance, your fantasy ideas of worthless pvp or different types, don't apply.
1. Anyone should be able to get in, constant struggle for a keep=fun
2. You don t if a midnight raid happens , take it back it s fun to take a keep back you ve lost to a gutless group. Or you could have alliances even with a different time zone guild to help you out when you re not there. Thus they can get some mini bonus for helping out. Maybe use of your PVE city for crafting or whatever. You can tax them make some money of them in return for their help and their safety from your much bigger guild. This will also play into a more political system, one day they might get sick of you and rebel, well then it s another fight, but i think you get the idea.
3. If it s less then a day to reap the benefits make it so there are more then 9 (i think) to fight over total.
4. Use alliances, see 2.
There are alot better ways to do the pvpin this game IMO and they just didn t even come close. To say 48 vs 48 is for a real pvper is well i won t go there.
1. not for any guild that wants to realistically take a keep.
2. This sounds interesting, but at the same time, who would want to be a part of a guild that was always just a lackey, and the main guild just spam recruits for amss players?
3. If there are too many keeps it'd change from being a prestige to own a keep due to your skill, to luck at taking the one that has the least amount at any given time.
4. Again, why would a guild have a alliance with another, and why would a alliance guild just not join the main one? More numbers=win. just spam recruit.
it could be larger, i was talking about true pvp fights, not zerg to win. Zerging isn't real pvp, it requires no skill, no tactics, just who can bring the bigger army. And really that's not fun, that's not competitive, I wouldn't even be interested in taking keeps if it was, since if i wanted to just zerg around i would just play a rts game against a cpu that gets penalties to resources.
Sheezewack, you're complaining that after you fought for a keep and went to sleep someone took it back?
Where the hell is the problem in that? That keeps the battle going. THAT IS PVP!!
Screw pleasing everyone. Make the game challenging, demanding, and full of acceptable reward for accomplishing something like taking over a keep. Not give in and make it instanced so you have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind for gear that everyone and their housewife mother will have.
There is no sense of accomplishment in any of the recent mmo's in the past 4years.
Hopefully future MMOs like WAR will remedy this and before anyone tries pulling the "war vs aoc" card...i'm not a fanboi of either. I don't take sides. I was actually very much interested in AoC until I learned that it was just WoW without the cartoon graphics and instanced zones.
The game will float or sing on it's own merits or flaws. I wouldn't be agitated if one of the other thing happened.
I would expect however to see more negativity on these boards at this phase. Those who enjoy the game usually don't bother posting on general forums such as this. Official game forums and newly guild forums is where you will find people with a more positive disposition.
So, lets calm down. Even the people who thoroughly enjoy the game are into the honeymoon period. The game seems to be received better than what the doomsayers would have you to believe. How much better, is still too early to tell. Whether it will hold it's appeal is something else that is to be determined in the future.
Back into topic. No, the game is not instanced. It becomes more apparent when somebody leaves the tutorial zone (Tortage). It is however not seamless, partly due to the game engine and partly due to the fact that the areas presented are not physically connected in the world map (travelling time is assumed).
When you played DAoC did you level all of the way up to 50 or linger around the lowbie battlegrounds?
Just curious
All the way up, I did a little bit in the lowbie BG's though, until you mentioned it I completely forgot about it though!
Most of my pvp time was spent with the main keeps etc, with pretty big armies etc. I had a pretty decent PC at the time and when we got to a certain size it really started chugging.
This was original DaoC though, i'm sure it's changed alot.
Sheezewack, you're complaining that after you fought for a keep and went to sleep someone took it back?
Where the hell is the problem in that? That keeps the battle going. THAT IS PVP!! No, that's not pvp. That's called being cowards. You can't realisticly expect a guild of average size to take a keep and hold it for longer then a few hours. Taking the keep itself should be the hard part, waiting till 2 am to raid some keep would make it stupid. Screw pleasing everyone. Make the game challenging, demanding, and full of acceptable reward for accomplishing something like taking over a keep. Not give in and make it instanced so you have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind for gear that everyone and their housewife mother will have. I'm sorry, but it's neither challenging nor demanding to take a keep after everyone has gone to bed. Challenging and demanding is having your guild strong enough, and skilled enough to take a keep based on your own merits, not having enough sway over your guild forcing people to stay up till 2 am so you can take one. There is no sense of accomplishment in any of the recent mmo's in the past 4years. And you'd feel accomplishment in taking a keep when there's no challenge in doing so? Hopefully future MMOs like WAR will remedy this and before anyone tries pulling the "war vs aoc" card...i'm not a fanboi of either. I don't take sides. I was actually very much interested in AoC until I learned that it was just WoW without the cartoon graphics and instanced zones. The difference with WAR and AoC is that WARS pvp is based on your entire realms side. it's not "hot monkey death" defending against their attackers. Sure a guild can lay their banners on a keep, but it's not even remotely similar circumstances. In AoC, keeps are meant to be a guild activity. There is no "realm". There is no "evil vs good". AoC's developers decided that they wanted keeps to be a source of guild conflict, rather than a zerg vs zerg, with midnight keep taking. What's being complained about is more focus on individual skill, and leadership by the commanders of the guild vs your realms zerg, and luck in doing activities.
Sheezewack, you're complaining that after you fought for a keep and went to sleep someone took it back? Yes, probably the biggest problem was the time differences. It wasn't the fact that someone took it back, it was the fact that they could easily take it back because there simply was no one around at that time to defend it. THAT is not PvP, it's just silly. The PvP is when you actually have people defending and have a big challenge to take the keep.
Screw pleasing everyone. Make the game challenging, demanding, and full of acceptable reward for accomplishing something like taking over a keep. Not give in and make it instanced so you have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind for gear that everyone and their housewife mother will have. Don't judge the PvP in AoC until you have really played it, who knows you might actually like it. Screw pleasing everyone? Obviously that isn't their intention, you don't seem very pleased.
There is no sense of accomplishment in any of the recent mmo's in the past 4years. I would tend to agree here actually, the "PvP" in WoW was really crap, AoC might not work out in the end, but it does have a different approach so who knows it just might.
Hopefully future MMOs like WAR will remedy this and before anyone tries pulling the "war vs aoc" card...i'm not a fanboi of either. I don't take sides. I was actually very much interested in AoC until I learned that it was just WoW without the cartoon graphics and instanced zones. From what I have seen, the PvP in WAR is much more like WoW than the PvP in AoC. I really didn't like the WAR beta myself.
Honestly I used to have high hopes for WAR and never planned on playing AoC, but after playing both I decided on AoC - but WAR may have improved since I last played it.
Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group.
Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
Originally posted by Bladin it could be larger, i was talking about true pvp fights, not zerg to win. Zerging isn't real pvp, it requires no skill, no tactics, just who can bring the bigger army. And really that's not fun, that's not competitive, I wouldn't even be interested in taking keeps if it was, since if i wanted to just zerg around i would just play a rts game against a cpu that gets penalties to resources.
Seeing that you don't like talking about DAoC, I am compelled to post a video of a large albion zerg getting bested by a single group of hibernians. A mindless zerg < a few organized players.
please people... we aren't talking world pvp here, we are talking guild based pvp activities. DaoC swg were all world pvp, these aren't. riddle m this How do you decide which guild takes a keep if anyone can get in? How do you protect against midnight raids without it being instanced? How do you allow guilds to want keeps, and actually reep benefits if tyhe average keep time was less then a day How do you open up pvp for more guilds without only allowing the uberguilds a shot at even taking one. It's called balance, your fantasy ideas of worthless pvp or different types, don't apply.
1. Anyone should be able to get in, constant struggle for a keep=fun
2. You don t if a midnight raid happens , take it back it s fun to take a keep back you ve lost to a gutless group. Or you could have alliances even with a different time zone guild to help you out when you re not there. Thus they can get some mini bonus for helping out. Maybe use of your PVE city for crafting or whatever. You can tax them make some money of them in return for their help and their safety from your much bigger guild. This will also play into a more political system, one day they might get sick of you and rebel, well then it s another fight, but i think you get the idea.
3. If it s less then a day to reap the benefits make it so there are more then 9 (i think) to fight over total.
4. Use alliances, see 2.
There are alot better ways to do the pvpin this game IMO and they just didn t even come close. To say 48 vs 48 is for a real pvper is well i won t go there.
1. not for any guild that wants to realistically take a keep.
2. This sounds interesting, but at the same time, who would want to be a part of a guild that was always just a lackey, and the main guild just spam recruits for amss players?
3. If there are too many keeps it'd change from being a prestige to own a keep due to your skill, to luck at taking the one that has the least amount at any given time.
4. Again, why would a guild have a alliance with another, and why would a alliance guild just not join the main one? More numbers=win. just spam recruit.
it could be larger, i was talking about true pvp fights, not zerg to win. Zerging isn't real pvp, it requires no skill, no tactics, just who can bring the bigger army. And really that's not fun, that's not competitive, I wouldn't even be interested in taking keeps if it was, since if i wanted to just zerg around i would just play a rts game against a cpu that gets penalties to resources.
See to say zerging isn t fun, is your opinion. Many including me enjoy the huge fights. And believe it or not huge fights can take skill. I ve been in groups in DAOC that could take out 3-4 groups because they knew what they were doing. Hell i played midgard on Guin server when Albs outnumbered us and the Hibs 2-1. Guess what Albs owned 1 of the 6 relics for ALONG time. Why you ask because the ALBS at that time didn t know anything but numbers. So in reality the smaller numbers defeated the so called giant with skill, strategy and sheer balls:) I for one can say that in DAOC i loved when some intel would tell us 100+ ALBS inc. We would rally the troops and try like hell to win. Sometimes we did sometimes not but you know what it was always fun trying either way. Youll always find your zergers in a game that doesn t cap numbers but it can and will be countered. To me knowing whats coming and when is not a true pvp fight. The element of suprise and knowing i could die is. Besides if you get zerged there was no better feeling rallying up the troops and getting revenge. Different styles for different people but true pvp should never be limited to me and alot of people i know anyways.
To Retrad: Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group. Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
I understand that game companies are out to make the big $$$. And that sucks, because games like WoW and AoC could be so much better. Hell, why not make an alternate rule set server? That would get you EVERYONE and MORE MONEY!!
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Guilds defended their keeps in the constant, persistent world. Only the strong survived attacks from the weaker, grouped up guilds. You just proved to me you're not a real pvper. You're casual carebearer who wants everything without any sacrifice.
In shadowbane the way you defended your keep was by having dedicated players who were good and skilled. You had players who played at all hours to help defend against the keep.
You want your cake, but you don't want to work for it. And like a bad parent, Blizzard and Funcon give in and give you it all.
To Retrad: Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group. Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
I understand that game companies are out to make the big $$$. And that sucks, because games like WoW and AoC could be so much better. Hell, why not make an alternate rule set server? That would get you EVERYONE and MORE MONEY!!
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Hehe it has an option to BG, but open world is so not like WOW, you ll see:)
To Retrad: Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group. Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. For those of us that have to work the AoC PvP seems like it could be pretty ideal.
If I had all of the time in the world to play like I once did then I might prefer the DaoC style instead.
Thats the way it goes unfortunately, we have to work. This is why zoning and the lack of 'exploring' in games like DDO actually appealed to many of us that don't have as much time. It puts you straight into the action quicker, without having to take a 15 minute trip on a bird like in WoW.
1. It's RvR, your automatically sided with everyone else on your side. You don't even have to be in a group or guild. AoC is guild vs guild conflict. Theres a difference.
2. DAoC relied hard on CC and, of course that group won vs them, they were just some scrubs who just stuck to each other and stood around like sheeple while they got annihilated. Even watching the vid you could see them them going into panic mode when the aoe happened and they just ran not knowing how to handle it. To me that vid barely even looked like a fight, it seemed more like a staged slaughter.
*edit*
retrad that's why shadowbane added in timed attacks right? Because it was such a great feature for midnight raids, they decided to add it in.
And no, i didn't play much of shadowbane, i couldn't get past the terrible gameplay and graphics. Sorry, i need a well rounded game.
I want things handed to me, by me actually wanting to have skilled organized competition and sieges? Yeah. Right.
I understand that game companies are out to make the big $$$. And that sucks, because games like WoW and AoC could be so much better. Hell, why not make an alternate rule set server? That would get you EVERYONE and MORE MONEY!!
I've often wondered why they don't make alternate rule sets, they need to break the mould of PvE/PvP servers and split them up into more categories with different rules.
I mean I am not interesting in lootable corpses etc, but there are plenty who are - why they can't have some servers setup with these rules is beyond me.
You are making a fundamental mistake: more time /played, doesn't guarantee more player skill. You can very well be totally incompetent at PvP, and have countless hours played in your account. So this cheap excuse of catering to the 'mature' audience with limited time to play has no base.
And you know what, it is also a bit hypocritical, at least for those that choose to play on a PvP server: You want to participate in a competitive game but you don't want it to be competitive due to RL constraints? Well sorry, but perhaps you don't need a MMOG to keep you entertained but something else, less time-demanding and more casual.
To Retrad: Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group. Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
I understand that game companies are out to make the big $$$. And that sucks, because games like WoW and AoC could be so much better. Hell, why not make an alternate rule set server? That would get you EVERYONE and MORE MONEY!!
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Hehe it has an option to BG, but open world is so not like WOW, you ll see:)
I agree and disagree with you there.
It's not like WoW world PvP in the sense that it's FFA.
The world PvP will be just like WoW because people will just go straight to the Seige BG to do their PvP instead of pvping in the world and also...at least in WoW the world is not sectioned off into instanced zones. No i'm not talking about zone lines...I'm talking about how in AoC there will be a max limit of chars in a given zone. So the PvP will be less as in WoW if people actually pvped in the world there would be HUNDREDS in the zone you were fighting in.
Guilds defended their keeps in the constant, persistent world. Only the strong survived attacks from the weaker, grouped up guilds. You just proved to me you're not a real pvper. You're casual carebearer who wants everything without any sacrifice. Like i said i never played shadowbane because i personally found it to be terrible. Not in features, but in gameplay and graphics. That proves i'm not a real pvper? because i hated a game? In shadowbane the way you defended your keep was by having dedicated players who were good and skilled. You had players who played at all hours to help defend against the keep. Again, they changed this, i wonder why? You want your cake, but you don't want to work for it. And like a bad parent, Blizzard and Funcon give in and give you it all. I don't want to work for it? I have to laugh at that. I'll be working harder defending and attacking keeps in a organized attack and defense. Getting cheated out of something you've worked hard for, because of a exploitable game is not sacrifice. It's shitty mechanics. I say your the one that wants things handed to you, since your probably the type that can only manage to take a keep/town when you go at times where the defense is lower, rather than actually having to try vs your opponents.
Sorry i needed a real post for this not just a edit.
*edit*
to sheik
Yeah, a group running between, getting cc'd, then standing around in a group and getting cc'd and aoe'd looks like a real fight to me. I'm sorry but it probably was fun for you back then, but today that sort of combat just doesn't fly.
Comments
my question is where do mercs fit in to all this. If you were a guild of 50 and a horde of 100 were coming in....would make perfect sense.
But most guilds which will be taking keeps will be the larger ones, 48 people shouldnt pose a problem, especially with city defenses et all. Mercs no longer really have a role in seiging
You obviously never played Shadowbane.
Guilds defended their keeps in the constant, persistent world. Only the strong survived attacks from the weaker, grouped up guilds.
-edit-
Blade you just proved to me you're not a real pvper. You're casual carebearer who wants everything without any sacrifice.
In shadowbane the way you defended your keep was by having dedicated players who were good and skilled. You had players who played at all hours to help defend against the keep.
You want your cake, but you don't want to work for it. And like a bad parent, Blizzard and Funcon give in and give you it all.
Well i'm not sure how it will play out, I am hoping you don't just get zoned straight to the battlekeep.
If you could hire a group of mercs to defend the path leading upto the keep zone then that would be nice, The attacking army should have to get through a zone to be able to attack the keep.
I guess we will have to wait and see, but it would be great to have some sort of pre-zone to the battle keep, effectively increasing the 48v48, just not all in the same zone at once.
Other games have survived this. New MMOs today are adopting this "instanced" bullshit for quests and raid dungeons because the carebears who make up a large portion of gamers cry and when they cry it's loud and heard more often then the please from us who actually know how to play the game.
It all starts when someone who is less geared and lower level wants a camp of a mob that some higher lvl more geared char have. They cry and cry about it instead of leveling up and getting better gear to then kill the higher level. You wouldn't believe how many idiots cried in EQ because of this. How did I respond? Well I was doing the camping and I would just kill them to shut them up.
Just curious
STOP WHINING!
so how will this work in AOC? say clan A goes for raid number 5, and clan B is determined to stop them and tries to camp the entrance or whatever. even if the zone is remote and with low population, all clan A has to do is bring more numbers till they fill the instance, and voila, free entrance. no way instancing is good in PVP game. but then again, they've already said this isnt a pvp game, the pvp is just added cause of the numerous requests
2. You don t if a midnight raid happens , take it back it s fun to take a keep back you ve lost to a gutless group. Or you could have alliances even with a different time zone guild to help you out when you re not there. Thus they can get some mini bonus for helping out. Maybe use of your PVE city for crafting or whatever. You can tax them make some money of them in return for their help and their safety from your much bigger guild. This will also play into a more political system, one day they might get sick of you and rebel, well then it s another fight, but i think you get the idea.
3. If it s less then a day to reap the benefits make it so there are more then 9 (i think) to fight over total.
4. Use alliances, see 2.
There are alot better ways to do the pvpin this game IMO and they just didn t even come close. To say 48 vs 48 is for a real pvper is well i won t go there.
1. not for any guild that wants to realistically take a keep.2. This sounds interesting, but at the same time, who would want to be a part of a guild that was always just a lackey, and the main guild just spam recruits for amss players?
3. If there are too many keeps it'd change from being a prestige to own a keep due to your skill, to luck at taking the one that has the least amount at any given time.
4. Again, why would a guild have a alliance with another, and why would a alliance guild just not join the main one? More numbers=win. just spam recruit.
it could be larger, i was talking about true pvp fights, not zerg to win. Zerging isn't real pvp, it requires no skill, no tactics, just who can bring the bigger army. And really that's not fun, that's not competitive, I wouldn't even be interested in taking keeps if it was, since if i wanted to just zerg around i would just play a rts game against a cpu that gets penalties to resources.
Sheezewack, you're complaining that after you fought for a keep and went to sleep someone took it back?
Where the hell is the problem in that? That keeps the battle going. THAT IS PVP!!
Screw pleasing everyone. Make the game challenging, demanding, and full of acceptable reward for accomplishing something like taking over a keep. Not give in and make it instanced so you have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind for gear that everyone and their housewife mother will have.
There is no sense of accomplishment in any of the recent mmo's in the past 4years.
Hopefully future MMOs like WAR will remedy this and before anyone tries pulling the "war vs aoc" card...i'm not a fanboi of either. I don't take sides. I was actually very much interested in AoC until I learned that it was just WoW without the cartoon graphics and instanced zones.
The game will float or sing on it's own merits or flaws. I wouldn't be agitated if one of the other thing happened.
I would expect however to see more negativity on these boards at this phase. Those who enjoy the game usually don't bother posting on general forums such as this. Official game forums and newly guild forums is where you will find people with a more positive disposition.
So, lets calm down. Even the people who thoroughly enjoy the game are into the honeymoon period. The game seems to be received better than what the doomsayers would have you to believe. How much better, is still too early to tell. Whether it will hold it's appeal is something else that is to be determined in the future.
Back into topic. No, the game is not instanced. It becomes more apparent when somebody leaves the tutorial zone (Tortage). It is however not seamless, partly due to the game engine and partly due to the fact that the areas presented are not physically connected in the world map (travelling time is assumed).
Just curious
All the way up, I did a little bit in the lowbie BG's though, until you mentioned it I completely forgot about it though!
Most of my pvp time was spent with the main keeps etc, with pretty big armies etc. I had a pretty decent PC at the time and when we got to a certain size it really started chugging.
This was original DaoC though, i'm sure it's changed alot.
Honestly I used to have high hopes for WAR and never planned on playing AoC, but after playing both I decided on AoC - but WAR may have improved since I last played it.
To Retrad:
Game companies are just that, companies. They don't make products out of prinsiple. They want to catter to a targetted market group or multple target groups if possible. If you're a student or unemployed with infinite amount of free time, you're part of one target group. If your free time is limited due to a work schedule or other obligations, you're part of another target group.
Both these groups can be equally competitive PvPers, thus the overused and meaningless comparison between carebears vs hardcore does not apply here.
This is all about who the game company wants as a prospective client. It seems that you are not part of their target group. Which is fine. The unfortunate reality is that the generation that used to play UO and the rest that followed putting insane hours have now grown up and doesn't have the time to put the same amount of time. So you'll either need to convince the new people that play for their first time to do the same, or acknowledge that the market has changed for ever to accommodate the majority of the current player base.
Seeing that you don't like talking about DAoC, I am compelled to post a video of a large albion zerg getting bested by a single group of hibernians. A mindless zerg < a few organized players.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kjUsaiOrApo&feature=related
Enjoy
STOP WHINING!
2. You don t if a midnight raid happens , take it back it s fun to take a keep back you ve lost to a gutless group. Or you could have alliances even with a different time zone guild to help you out when you re not there. Thus they can get some mini bonus for helping out. Maybe use of your PVE city for crafting or whatever. You can tax them make some money of them in return for their help and their safety from your much bigger guild. This will also play into a more political system, one day they might get sick of you and rebel, well then it s another fight, but i think you get the idea.
3. If it s less then a day to reap the benefits make it so there are more then 9 (i think) to fight over total.
4. Use alliances, see 2.
There are alot better ways to do the pvpin this game IMO and they just didn t even come close. To say 48 vs 48 is for a real pvper is well i won t go there.
1. not for any guild that wants to realistically take a keep.2. This sounds interesting, but at the same time, who would want to be a part of a guild that was always just a lackey, and the main guild just spam recruits for amss players?
3. If there are too many keeps it'd change from being a prestige to own a keep due to your skill, to luck at taking the one that has the least amount at any given time.
4. Again, why would a guild have a alliance with another, and why would a alliance guild just not join the main one? More numbers=win. just spam recruit.
it could be larger, i was talking about true pvp fights, not zerg to win. Zerging isn't real pvp, it requires no skill, no tactics, just who can bring the bigger army. And really that's not fun, that's not competitive, I wouldn't even be interested in taking keeps if it was, since if i wanted to just zerg around i would just play a rts game against a cpu that gets penalties to resources.
See to say zerging isn t fun, is your opinion. Many including me enjoy the huge fights. And believe it or not huge fights can take skill. I ve been in groups in DAOC that could take out 3-4 groups because they knew what they were doing. Hell i played midgard on Guin server when Albs outnumbered us and the Hibs 2-1. Guess what Albs owned 1 of the 6 relics for ALONG time. Why you ask because the ALBS at that time didn t know anything but numbers. So in reality the smaller numbers defeated the so called giant with skill, strategy and sheer balls:) I for one can say that in DAOC i loved when some intel would tell us 100+ ALBS inc. We would rally the troops and try like hell to win. Sometimes we did sometimes not but you know what it was always fun trying either way. Youll always find your zergers in a game that doesn t cap numbers but it can and will be countered. To me knowing whats coming and when is not a true pvp fight. The element of suprise and knowing i could die is. Besides if you get zerged there was no better feeling rallying up the troops and getting revenge. Different styles for different people but true pvp should never be limited to me and alot of people i know anyways.
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Bladin, you obviously never played Shadowbane.
Guilds defended their keeps in the constant, persistent world. Only the strong survived attacks from the weaker, grouped up guilds. You just proved to me you're not a real pvper. You're casual carebearer who wants everything without any sacrifice.
In shadowbane the way you defended your keep was by having dedicated players who were good and skilled. You had players who played at all hours to help defend against the keep.
You want your cake, but you don't want to work for it. And like a bad parent, Blizzard and Funcon give in and give you it all.
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Hehe it has an option to BG, but open world is so not like WOW, you ll see:)
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. For those of us that have to work the AoC PvP seems like it could be pretty ideal.
If I had all of the time in the world to play like I once did then I might prefer the DaoC style instead.
Thats the way it goes unfortunately, we have to work. This is why zoning and the lack of 'exploring' in games like DDO actually appealed to many of us that don't have as much time. It puts you straight into the action quicker, without having to take a 15 minute trip on a bird like in WoW.
I talked about DAoC before.
1. It's RvR, your automatically sided with everyone else on your side. You don't even have to be in a group or guild. AoC is guild vs guild conflict. Theres a difference.
2. DAoC relied hard on CC and, of course that group won vs them, they were just some scrubs who just stuck to each other and stood around like sheeple while they got annihilated. Even watching the vid you could see them them going into panic mode when the aoe happened and they just ran not knowing how to handle it. To me that vid barely even looked like a fight, it seemed more like a staged slaughter.
*edit*
retrad that's why shadowbane added in timed attacks right? Because it was such a great feature for midnight raids, they decided to add it in.
And no, i didn't play much of shadowbane, i couldn't get past the terrible gameplay and graphics. Sorry, i need a well rounded game.
I want things handed to me, by me actually wanting to have skilled organized competition and sieges? Yeah. Right.
I mean I am not interesting in lootable corpses etc, but there are plenty who are - why they can't have some servers setup with these rules is beyond me.
You are making a fundamental mistake: more time /played, doesn't guarantee more player skill. You can very well be totally incompetent at PvP, and have countless hours played in your account. So this cheap excuse of catering to the 'mature' audience with limited time to play has no base.
And you know what, it is also a bit hypocritical, at least for those that choose to play on a PvP server: You want to participate in a competitive game but you don't want it to be competitive due to RL constraints? Well sorry, but perhaps you don't need a MMOG to keep you entertained but something else, less time-demanding and more casual.
I started out playing those games when I was 14 and am now 23. I have less time with school, friends, girlfriend and what have you, but I'd still prefer the old hardcore style even if it meant it would take me longer to get to the end, because when I eventually did it would be an accomplishment.
I've played WoW since release and after 4years finally canceled my account last month. I've seen all the end game dungeons. I've been to sunwell.
Ultimately, believe it or not, WoW felt more like a grind than EQ, UO, and DAoC combined! Why? Because it was all the same repetitive BS with no sense of accomplishment. It felt like a chore. Don't ask me how grinding mob after mob for endless hours and doing EPIC Quests in EQ didn't feel like a chore...but it just didn't.
I think it's because everything in WoW is so dummied down for the casual player and grandpa to understand and complete that skill is not needed. Hell A ROBOT CAN PLAY WOW!
I'm not going to lie, I barely played the beta in AoC, but it didn't feel right. It felt the same as WoW. My friend was in beta longer than me and he hated it. I was going to give AoC a shot still after letting a month pass and see what people said about it, but after hearing about instanced zones and instanced, glorfied, battlegrounds....it's just not for me.
I don't want to play WoW set in the Conan World.
I'm hoping WAR will be like DAoC, but if its PvP is same kind of crap WoW and AoC are offering then I guess I'll be playing CoD4 and CS a bit longer.
Hell..I might play APB if it's out before an actual good MMO is.
Hehe it has an option to BG, but open world is so not like WOW, you ll see:)
I agree and disagree with you there.
It's not like WoW world PvP in the sense that it's FFA.
The world PvP will be just like WoW because people will just go straight to the Seige BG to do their PvP instead of pvping in the world and also...at least in WoW the world is not sectioned off into instanced zones. No i'm not talking about zone lines...I'm talking about how in AoC there will be a max limit of chars in a given zone. So the PvP will be less as in WoW if people actually pvped in the world there would be HUNDREDS in the zone you were fighting in.
Only because you wanted it to be.
STOP WHINING!
Sorry i needed a real post for this not just a edit.
*edit*
to sheik
Yeah, a group running between, getting cc'd, then standing around in a group and getting cc'd and aoe'd looks like a real fight to me. I'm sorry but it probably was fun for you back then, but today that sort of combat just doesn't fly.