NO ONE LEASED A COPY OF THE GAME! For a judge to make a ruling based on this is unlawful. NO ONE LEASED IT. Every single one of us went into a store and baught a copy. Just like we did with every other game.
You don't lease XBox games. You don't lease PS3 games. You don't lease music or video.
AND NO JUDGE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT I DON'T OWN SOMETHING I BAUGHT. The limits to what I can do with that product is not the issue. It is a judge determining what we did with our money in a store AFTER THE FACT.
9 billion people would have never baught the game if when we walked into our local store the clerk made us sign a contract that said we were only leasing it. I for one would have said no thanks and left it there.
You are not leasing a product unless you sign an agreement at the point of purchase stating you are leasing it. How would you feel if you baught a car and the dealer came and took it 2 years later because they decided that you didn't actually buy to own, but instead leased it. This is EXACTLY what the judge did.
I just used one of the references of you saying they changed/usuped laws. You are acting like you know the full code of law involving copyrighted material, and the ways in which you can use the copyrighted material.
You buy a cd and a movie as well, but there are a TON of limitations with what you can do with them (including limitations on copying, displaying in public, etc). So if said program copies a part of the game, then it is pretty easy to see how it violates the copyright. also if the bot cost money, then he is also profiting from copying copyrighted material in a way that violates the copyright.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I just used one of the references of you saying they changed/usuped laws. You are acting like you know the full code of law involving copyrighted material, and the ways in which you can use the copyrighted material.
You buy a cd and a movie as well, but there are a TON of limitations with what you can do with them (including limitations on copying, displaying in public, etc). So if said program copies a part of the game, then it is pretty easy to see how it violates the copyright. also if the bot cost money, then he is also profiting from copying copyrighted material in a way that violates the copyright.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
Edit: Or put another way. A judge decided that you did not buy your copy of wow, but instead purchased an agreement to lease the software. In effect you DON'T OWN ANYTHING BUT AN AGREEMENT.
I just used one of the references of you saying they changed/usuped laws. You are acting like you know the full code of law involving copyrighted material, and the ways in which you can use the copyrighted material.
You buy a cd and a movie as well, but there are a TON of limitations with what you can do with them (including limitations on copying, displaying in public, etc). So if said program copies a part of the game, then it is pretty easy to see how it violates the copyright. also if the bot cost money, then he is also profiting from copying copyrighted material in a way that violates the copyright.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I just used one of the references of you saying they changed/usuped laws. You are acting like you know the full code of law involving copyrighted material, and the ways in which you can use the copyrighted material.
You buy a cd and a movie as well, but there are a TON of limitations with what you can do with them (including limitations on copying, displaying in public, etc). So if said program copies a part of the game, then it is pretty easy to see how it violates the copyright. also if the bot cost money, then he is also profiting from copying copyrighted material in a way that violates the copyright.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
Edit: The sad thing is some of you are the same people that will preach don't pay for beta. Yet you're content to let a judge alienate your rights as a consumer buy determining what you agree to when actually make the purchase, well before you even play or agree to the EULA. THAT'S CRAZY!
The hell with bots. This is a breach of your rights. Why should any company have the right to tell you after you buy something that you don't own it. If you are only leasing then Blizzard should be required to have that printed on the box so that the consumer is aware before they buy.
Once again. It's the same as going to a car dealer and buying a care THEN being told you are only leasing. Would you keep a care if the dealer told you that?
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase. Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
alright i see what your saying, but again, this is a P2P MMO. You have to pay to play on Blizzard's servers, and when your not paying your not playing. Atleast this is what i think the judge thought when he came to his ruling.
EDIT: i thought about it a little more, and your actually leasing server space, not the game. I think the judge got things mixed up.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
The EULA states you can return the game for a full refund if you do not agree with it. This fact has already been stated though. So you can still return the game if you don't agree, and you won't have lost anything. So what is the problem?
The EULA states you can return the game for a full refund if you do not agree with it. This fact has already been stated though. So you can still return the game if you don't agree, and you won't have lost anything. So what is the problem?
How about a 10% restocking fee?
How about retailers refusal to allow returns on used games?
How about not being able to sell the game at gamestop because of the used CD key.
I didn't buy the game from Blizzard I baught it from Best Buy and they don't give refunds on games. They allow an exchange (after a lot of bitching and arguing) or a 10% restocking fee (after a lot of bitching and arguing.)
And this has nothing to do with after purchase issues. It's a matter of what you get at purchase and a judge determined you are only leasing software.
Did you agree to a lease when you made your purchase?
How many here can produce a lease agreement from the time of purchase?
None. Because not a single person purchased a lease. We all baught a game. Pay attention.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase. Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
alright i see what your saying, but again, this is a P2P MMO. You have to pay to play on Blizzard's servers, and when your not paying your not playing. Atleast this is what i think the judge thought when he came to his ruling.
EDIT: i thought about it a little more, and your actually leasing server space, not the game. I think the judge got things mixed up.
I'm all for the EULA. That's good and fine, and right if it's enforceable, and I don't think it is. Again, you have to be 18 to agree or sign to an agreement. You can't enforce something that a large portion of the people aren't legally bound to. Not a single person under 18 is legally obligated to follow the EULA because they can't legally agree to it. As far as I'm aware. Or have they changed the law to allow minors to sign contract.
What you get when you buy the box is a piece of software that is useless unless connected to the game servers. Blizzard owns these servers and therefor has rules for what the people connected to them does while using them. So in order to use this servies (play the game) you must agree to these rules.
I really don't see what is so hard about understanding this?
As for the refunding "problems", your just making up excuses. The EULA is most likely displayed when creating your account so losing the cd-key is not a problem. As for the stores not refunding you, that isn't blizzard's problem.
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing?
Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
What you get when you buy the box is a piece of software that is useless unless connected to the game servers. Blizzard owns these servers and therefor has rules for what the people connected to them does while using them. So in order to use this servies (play the game) you must agree to these rules. I really don't see what is so hard about understanding this? As for the refunding "problems", your just making up excuses. The EULA is most likely displayed when creating your account so losing the cd-key is not a problem. As for the stores not refunding you, that isn't blizzard's problem.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing? Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
Crappy game design!? Game design has nothing to do with botting. Bots can be found in most games. Does that mean every game is badly designed?
The only reason bots have become such a big deal is because the game is so popular.
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing? Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
wouldn't it be the parents who agree to it? since the guardians are the ones who have legal responsibility for the minors.
Technically they are supposed to be the ones that click the button. Realistically though, how many are?
You have to look at the EULA like a bonifide contract, it's written on paper sitting on a table in front of you. Now if you're a kid and you're parents buy the contract they should be the ones that sign it so you can use the product. Now how is this contract effected when the kid is the one that signs thier name? By law it's null and voided because the kid can't be legally bound to it. Now if Blizzard has no means of enforceing the EULA when the issue of legally binding arises, then how worthwhile is the EULA in and of itself? Again, don't misunderstand me here. I agree with EULA's. I just don't think they can be held as binding, nor do I think they are enforcable outside of requiring the user to be 18 with a means of varifying that the user is 18.
It's like. A parent is supposed to send thier kid to school every day, but when the kid cuts the parent isn't punished, the kid is. By law however a parent is required to send thier kid to school, so if the kid isn't there when they are supposed to be, and the parent sent them to the bus stop, who is to blame, and who is liable?
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing? Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
It isn't ok for a man to rape a woman because she was wearing a mini skirt.
Why should it be ok for our rights to be undermined so that botters can be stopped.
FPS bots are a bit different in that they go above and beyond what a player could do themselves. MMORPG bots (and Diablo bots included) only do what a player themselves could do with a huge amount of free time (and perhaps a greater amount of patience).
We made spread sheets to automate batches of calculation tasks so we can get to the important stuff. Similarly, someone made a bot to bypass the boring parts of a game to get to the important stuff (raiding, PvP, enjoying nice mounts, whatever).
Yes, most MMORPGs have bots. And yes, most MMORPGs are badly designed.
What you get when you buy the box is a piece of software that is useless unless connected to the game servers. Blizzard owns these servers and therefor has rules for what the people connected to them does while using them. So in order to use this servies (play the game) you must agree to these rules. I really don't see what is so hard about understanding this? As for the refunding "problems", your just making up excuses. The EULA is most likely displayed when creating your account so losing the cd-key is not a problem. As for the stores not refunding you, that isn't blizzard's problem.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
To be honest, I don't really care what the judge ruled. But it seems to me that he mean't the game service rather than the physical game box. I haven't even seen any material from the trial.
What the judge said is really not my concern either, I just don't understand what is so hard about accepting a simple set of rules before using a service?
FPS bots are a bit different in that they go above and beyond what a player could do themselves. MMORPG bots (and Diablo bots included) only do what a player themselves could do with a huge amount of free time (and perhaps a greater amount of patience). We made spread sheets to automate batches of calculation tasks so we can get to the important stuff. Similarly, someone made a bot to bypass the boring parts of a game to get to the important stuff (raiding, PvP, enjoying nice mounts, whatever). Yes, most MMORPGs have bots. And yes, most MMORPGs are badly designed.
If you feel the game is badly designed then........................don't play it.
No no, instead you reason like this:
"It's badly designed so that makes it ok to violate copyrights and cheat."
In the real world it doesn't work like that, and Michael Donnelly just found that out in court, and I'm 100% on Blizzards side on this.
Originally posted by Waterlily Originally posted by Mylon FPS bots are a bit different in that they go above and beyond what a player could do themselves. MMORPG bots (and Diablo bots included) only do what a player themselves could do with a huge amount of free time (and perhaps a greater amount of patience). We made spread sheets to automate batches of calculation tasks so we can get to the important stuff. Similarly, someone made a bot to bypass the boring parts of a game to get to the important stuff (raiding, PvP, enjoying nice mounts, whatever). Yes, most MMORPGs have bots. And yes, most MMORPGs are badly designed.
If you feel the game is badly designed then........................don't play it.
No no, instead you reason like this: "It's badly designed so that makes it ok to violate copyrights and cheat."
In the real world it doesn't work like that, and Michael Donnelly just found that out in court, and I'm 100% on Blizzards side on this.
Already done. Or already not-done. Or... Something. But yes, I don't play most MMORPGs because they're slow and repetitive. All of the "good" features don't come until 300+ hours into it.
I personally find it retarded that a person can be sued for writing software that is, at worst, as malicious as giving the average joe a bunch of traffic cones to set out in the street (taking up space "legit" players would be using). But, given the way the game is, it's relatively trivial to copy and paste more lanes so other people can do their thing.
This man creates tools. Suing him would be akin to suing Smith and Wesson for making tools that kill people.
Btw, you do own the game after you've bought it. But as I said eariler, it's pretty useless unless you connect to the servers. So I don't see where your going with this really? In reality, you are leasing the game because your playing on blizzards servers. You can poke around in the game as much as you want on your local machine, but when you connect to blizzard's servers you are in their world. Pretty simple.
What you get when you buy the box is a piece of software that is useless unless connected to the game servers. Blizzard owns these servers and therefor has rules for what the people connected to them does while using them. So in order to use this servies (play the game) you must agree to these rules. I really don't see what is so hard about understanding this? As for the refunding "problems", your just making up excuses. The EULA is most likely displayed when creating your account so losing the cd-key is not a problem. As for the stores not refunding you, that isn't blizzard's problem.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
To be honest, I don't really care what the judge ruled. But it seems to me that he mean't the game service rather than the physical game box. I haven't even seen any material from the trial.
What the judge said is really not my concern either, I just don't understand what is so hard about accepting a simple set of rules before using a service?
A determination had to be made as to the limits of our ownership. If you believe that we own the game then we are free to do with the code as we see fit.
So in the case of glider, a program that as far as I'm aware (I've been told this by a programmer who happens to be my best friend of 17 years) doesn't actually interact with blizzards servers, a decision has to be made. If we OWN the game, the software by means of a retail purchase then glider isn't violating a copyright law because we would own the software and thus be free to do with it as we please within the confines of copyright laws. Now if we don't own the software, if we are only leasing it, then we have no rights to it and ANYTHING that interacts with that software is and is available for purchase would violate copyright laws. The judge made the later determination 3 years after I purchased the game. 3 years later I'm told that I am only leasing the game. I could honestly care if I own it or not. I do care about being told AFTER I MAKE A PURCHASE the extent of my purchase. I expect to know what I'm buying when I buy it. If I'm only leasing I expect to be told this when I make the purchase, not after. IT'S OUR RIGHT TO KNOW.
Glider wasn't free. You had to buy it. That is why the ruling was made the way it was. SOMEONE OTHER THEN BLIZZARD WAS MAKING MONEY OFF OF BLIZZARD. I think that is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right.
I, like everyone else, agree to lease server time, NOT the game.
This is a bigger deal then just botting because it can have ramifications in other media.
If this ruling isn't overturned (I'll be suprised for one) then Blizzard should be required to make it clear on the box that we as consumers are only purchasing a lease to the software and that the software will remain the sole property of Blizzard. At the moment the only thing that the EULA or anything other then this ruling states is that Blizzard owns the intillectual property. After this ruling Blizzard owns the CD's themself, but the consumer isn't being made aware of this when they make a purchase, nor will they be told in the future, and that's not right.
When you lease something you sign a contract at the point of sales, not after.
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing? Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
It isn't ok for a man to rape a woman because she was wearing a mini skirt.
What in .... what kind of analogy is that.... what in Jupiters name does that have to do with a copyright violation.
Comments
Xephonics,
You simply refuse to see what is before you.
NO ONE LEASED A COPY OF THE GAME! For a judge to make a ruling based on this is unlawful. NO ONE LEASED IT. Every single one of us went into a store and baught a copy. Just like we did with every other game.
You don't lease XBox games. You don't lease PS3 games. You don't lease music or video.
AND NO JUDGE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT I DON'T OWN SOMETHING I BAUGHT. The limits to what I can do with that product is not the issue. It is a judge determining what we did with our money in a store AFTER THE FACT.
9 billion people would have never baught the game if when we walked into our local store the clerk made us sign a contract that said we were only leasing it. I for one would have said no thanks and left it there.
You are not leasing a product unless you sign an agreement at the point of purchase stating you are leasing it. How would you feel if you baught a car and the dealer came and took it 2 years later because they decided that you didn't actually buy to own, but instead leased it. This is EXACTLY what the judge did.
Wish Darkfall would release.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
Edit: Or put another way. A judge decided that you did not buy your copy of wow, but instead purchased an agreement to lease the software. In effect you DON'T OWN ANYTHING BUT AN AGREEMENT.
Wish Darkfall would release.
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
THE JUDGE DETERMINED THAT WE AS THE CONSUMER DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN OUR COPIES OF WOW, BUT INSTEAD ARE ONLY LEASING THEM IN ORDER FOR THE RULING TO BE PASSED.
Maybe you should read what you're arguing along with what I wrote.
Edit: Just because a judge said it doesn't make it right. Inoccent people are imprisonned and ruling get overturned. How many people agreed with the judge in the OJ trial?
yeah we purchased our own copy of WoW, but we are still on blizzard's servers. So i believe your argument only applies to single player games.
The judge determined that at the point of sale nothing was baught to own by the consumer. The judge desided that we LEASED the software upon purchase.
Did you sign a lease agreement when you baught your box? I didn't.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
Edit: The sad thing is some of you are the same people that will preach don't pay for beta. Yet you're content to let a judge alienate your rights as a consumer buy determining what you agree to when actually make the purchase, well before you even play or agree to the EULA. THAT'S CRAZY!
The hell with bots. This is a breach of your rights. Why should any company have the right to tell you after you buy something that you don't own it. If you are only leasing then Blizzard should be required to have that printed on the box so that the consumer is aware before they buy.
Once again. It's the same as going to a car dealer and buying a care THEN being told you are only leasing. Would you keep a care if the dealer told you that?
Wish Darkfall would release.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
alright i see what your saying, but again, this is a P2P MMO. You have to pay to play on Blizzard's servers, and when your not paying your not playing. Atleast this is what i think the judge thought when he came to his ruling.
EDIT: i thought about it a little more, and your actually leasing server space, not the game. I think the judge got things mixed up.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
The EULA states you can return the game for a full refund if you do not agree with it. This fact has already been stated though. So you can still return the game if you don't agree, and you won't have lost anything. So what is the problem?
How about a 10% restocking fee?
How about retailers refusal to allow returns on used games?
How about not being able to sell the game at gamestop because of the used CD key.
I didn't buy the game from Blizzard I baught it from Best Buy and they don't give refunds on games. They allow an exchange (after a lot of bitching and arguing) or a 10% restocking fee (after a lot of bitching and arguing.)
And this has nothing to do with after purchase issues. It's a matter of what you get at purchase and a judge determined you are only leasing software.
Did you agree to a lease when you made your purchase?
How many here can produce a lease agreement from the time of purchase?
None. Because not a single person purchased a lease. We all baught a game. Pay attention.
Wish Darkfall would release.
i thought i did, everytime i hit accept on that EULA before entering WoW
You're not paying attention.
The rulling isn't based on after purchase. It was based on the point of sales.
AT THE POINT OF SALES YOU DID NOT PURCHASE TO OWN A COPY OF A GAME YOU PURCHASED AN AGREEMENT TO LEASE SOFTWARE.
When you handed the cashier the money did you sign a lease agreement? Were you told you didn't own the game? Did you know that you didn't own the copy? No, no , and no.
This isn't about what you have now but what occured when you baught the game. Pay attention.
alright i see what your saying, but again, this is a P2P MMO. You have to pay to play on Blizzard's servers, and when your not paying your not playing. Atleast this is what i think the judge thought when he came to his ruling.
EDIT: i thought about it a little more, and your actually leasing server space, not the game. I think the judge got things mixed up.
I'm all for the EULA. That's good and fine, and right if it's enforceable, and I don't think it is. Again, you have to be 18 to agree or sign to an agreement. You can't enforce something that a large portion of the people aren't legally bound to. Not a single person under 18 is legally obligated to follow the EULA because they can't legally agree to it. As far as I'm aware. Or have they changed the law to allow minors to sign contract.
Wish Darkfall would release.
wouldn't it be the parents who agree to it? since the guardians are the ones who have legal responsibility for the minors.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
What you get when you buy the box is a piece of software that is useless unless connected to the game servers. Blizzard owns these servers and therefor has rules for what the people connected to them does while using them. So in order to use this servies (play the game) you must agree to these rules.
I really don't see what is so hard about understanding this?
As for the refunding "problems", your just making up excuses. The EULA is most likely displayed when creating your account so losing the cd-key is not a problem. As for the stores not refunding you, that isn't blizzard's problem.
I think it boils down to this: If bots can play the game, is the game worth playing? If people would pay others to play the game for them (gold sales, leveling services), is the game worth playing?
Blizzard is using litigation to cover up crappy game design.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Crappy game design!? Game design has nothing to do with botting. Bots can be found in most games. Does that mean every game is badly designed?
The only reason bots have become such a big deal is because the game is so popular.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
Technically they are supposed to be the ones that click the button. Realistically though, how many are?
You have to look at the EULA like a bonifide contract, it's written on paper sitting on a table in front of you. Now if you're a kid and you're parents buy the contract they should be the ones that sign it so you can use the product. Now how is this contract effected when the kid is the one that signs thier name? By law it's null and voided because the kid can't be legally bound to it. Now if Blizzard has no means of enforceing the EULA when the issue of legally binding arises, then how worthwhile is the EULA in and of itself? Again, don't misunderstand me here. I agree with EULA's. I just don't think they can be held as binding, nor do I think they are enforcable outside of requiring the user to be 18 with a means of varifying that the user is 18.
It's like. A parent is supposed to send thier kid to school every day, but when the kid cuts the parent isn't punished, the kid is. By law however a parent is required to send thier kid to school, so if the kid isn't there when they are supposed to be, and the parent sent them to the bus stop, who is to blame, and who is liable?
Wish Darkfall would release.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
It isn't ok for a man to rape a woman because she was wearing a mini skirt.
Why should it be ok for our rights to be undermined so that botters can be stopped.
Wish Darkfall would release.
FPS bots are a bit different in that they go above and beyond what a player could do themselves. MMORPG bots (and Diablo bots included) only do what a player themselves could do with a huge amount of free time (and perhaps a greater amount of patience).
We made spread sheets to automate batches of calculation tasks so we can get to the important stuff. Similarly, someone made a bot to bypass the boring parts of a game to get to the important stuff (raiding, PvP, enjoying nice mounts, whatever).
Yes, most MMORPGs have bots. And yes, most MMORPGs are badly designed.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
To be honest, I don't really care what the judge ruled. But it seems to me that he mean't the game service rather than the physical game box. I haven't even seen any material from the trial.
What the judge said is really not my concern either, I just don't understand what is so hard about accepting a simple set of rules before using a service?
If you feel the game is badly designed then........................don't play it.
No no, instead you reason like this:
"It's badly designed so that makes it ok to violate copyrights and cheat."
In the real world it doesn't work like that, and Michael Donnelly just found that out in court, and I'm 100% on Blizzards side on this.
If you feel the game is badly designed then........................don't play it.
No no, instead you reason like this:
"It's badly designed so that makes it ok to violate copyrights and cheat."
In the real world it doesn't work like that, and Michael Donnelly just found that out in court, and I'm 100% on Blizzards side on this.
Already done. Or already not-done. Or... Something. But yes, I don't play most MMORPGs because they're slow and repetitive. All of the "good" features don't come until 300+ hours into it.
I personally find it retarded that a person can be sued for writing software that is, at worst, as malicious as giving the average joe a bunch of traffic cones to set out in the street (taking up space "legit" players would be using). But, given the way the game is, it's relatively trivial to copy and paste more lanes so other people can do their thing.
This man creates tools. Suing him would be akin to suing Smith and Wesson for making tools that kill people.
Your analogy makes no sense, this was about a direct copyright violation that was easy to identify by the judge.
What in gods name does that have to do with an arms distributer.
Btw, you do own the game after you've bought it. But as I said eariler, it's pretty useless unless you connect to the servers. So I don't see where your going with this really? In reality, you are leasing the game because your playing on blizzards servers. You can poke around in the game as much as you want on your local machine, but when you connect to blizzard's servers you are in their world. Pretty simple.
You're not paying attention.
I'd like to see you're lease agreement from when you made your purchase, because according to the judge that's all you did. You leased the software, you didn't buy it to own it. Not to mention I baught my copy over 3 years ago, and now a judge has determined that I don't own it.
And a lot of companies don't allow games to be returned; nor is this an "excuse". Furthermore I would have to have something to make an excuse for and that I don't.
A judge in essence assualted the consumer base in an effort to attack a single person. I could give a crap about glide, however, I care very much about my rights as a consumer, and the way in wich copyright laws are interpretted and enforced. Just like there are limits to what I can and can't do with someone elses work, there should be limits to what a corporation can and can't do with thier dealings with us. No corporation should be allowed to tell me after I've made a purchase that I don't own the product, but instead only lease it. This is something I have a RIGHT to agree to PRIOR to purchasing a product. NOT 3 YEARS LATER. That's BS.
I don't care if it's software. This has the potential to set presidence in other media, and that's not cool.
Edit: Why should we give up rights so that Blizzard can stop botters? Why are some of you so quick and comfortable to give up rights just so that no one's botting in WoW. Hell, most of you aren't even effected by botters, let alone ever seen on in WoW. Open your eyes.
To be honest, I don't really care what the judge ruled. But it seems to me that he mean't the game service rather than the physical game box. I haven't even seen any material from the trial.
What the judge said is really not my concern either, I just don't understand what is so hard about accepting a simple set of rules before using a service?
A determination had to be made as to the limits of our ownership. If you believe that we own the game then we are free to do with the code as we see fit.
So in the case of glider, a program that as far as I'm aware (I've been told this by a programmer who happens to be my best friend of 17 years) doesn't actually interact with blizzards servers, a decision has to be made. If we OWN the game, the software by means of a retail purchase then glider isn't violating a copyright law because we would own the software and thus be free to do with it as we please within the confines of copyright laws. Now if we don't own the software, if we are only leasing it, then we have no rights to it and ANYTHING that interacts with that software is and is available for purchase would violate copyright laws. The judge made the later determination 3 years after I purchased the game. 3 years later I'm told that I am only leasing the game. I could honestly care if I own it or not. I do care about being told AFTER I MAKE A PURCHASE the extent of my purchase. I expect to know what I'm buying when I buy it. If I'm only leasing I expect to be told this when I make the purchase, not after. IT'S OUR RIGHT TO KNOW.
Glider wasn't free. You had to buy it. That is why the ruling was made the way it was. SOMEONE OTHER THEN BLIZZARD WAS MAKING MONEY OFF OF BLIZZARD. I think that is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right.
I, like everyone else, agree to lease server time, NOT the game.
This is a bigger deal then just botting because it can have ramifications in other media.
If this ruling isn't overturned (I'll be suprised for one) then Blizzard should be required to make it clear on the box that we as consumers are only purchasing a lease to the software and that the software will remain the sole property of Blizzard. At the moment the only thing that the EULA or anything other then this ruling states is that Blizzard owns the intillectual property. After this ruling Blizzard owns the CD's themself, but the consumer isn't being made aware of this when they make a purchase, nor will they be told in the future, and that's not right.
When you lease something you sign a contract at the point of sales, not after.
Wish Darkfall would release.
?
I guess you think Quake sucks too then and every FPS, and Diablo, and Tetris and Sonic and every game that ever had a bot program to play it.
They don't cover up anything, the only people that are 'covering up' are the people pretending to play by the rules but using glider to get ahead.
And more importantly, Michael Donnelly, the maker of glider who thought he could get away with it and that Blizzard would turn a blind eye.
Good for Blizzard, and everyone who worked on this game, to not get their copyright violated and the court supporting Blizzard.
It isn't ok for a man to rape a woman because she was wearing a mini skirt.
What in .... what kind of analogy is that.... what in Jupiters name does that have to do with a copyright violation.
no comment.