If anything Combat is to fast. Fights are to short. Refresh timers are to short. The number of abilities to choose form even at high levels is somewhat limited. There simply is not enough thought and options in combat. I know War is directed at the more casual crowd and the PvP crowd. But because those groups lack attention span is not a reason to dumb down or simplify the combat. Now this being said the combat is nto terrible and completely lacking in thought or skill like simple games like AoC. But it could be so much better.
Clearly your experience was different from that of mine, if combat is to fast and fights are to short, either you are doing something wrong, or your zerging like morons.
This is just a flame thread you've started, you state comments without showing any evidence of such, nor represent how you have experience of "the number of abilities to choose from even at high levels is somewhat limited".
Personally I think you have very little experience, you got to your toon to level 11 or 12, and realized you were terrible and just kept dying. Or the game was to complex for your mind, I don't know it could be a billion things.
By level 12 my shaman had so many abilities I could barely find time to use them all before most of them died, so this "the abilities to choose from is limited" crap is nonsense.
Provide some real concrete details explaining how the combat is lacking, don't just say something and expect everyone to jump in and sing with you.
I am in closed beta and have gotten chars to 25 and have used the 31 template chars. In the open beta weekend I leveled another char to 20. I am not sure why you felt the need to express mindless hate simply because I happen to disagree with you. But yes i feel the combat is to fast and the fights are to short. Every game does nto have an in depth skillful involved combat system and nor is War;s tyerrible but its just average and it could be a lot better if fights allowed us more options and thought.
Ok, let me try to re-explain without sounding "hateful" or prejudice. I played wow for years, and just about every other MMO out there to-date. I was not part of the closed beta, but have several friends who are and was able to get some experience in the "extended" end of the game.
I will agree the combat is fast paced, but if your team is good and has half a brain, your fights will not be "quickly over" or zerg-fest like. Get your tanks/melee dps out front, healers guarded in the back, or use terrain as advantages, etc.. etc..
If you felt the fights are to short, then you haven't played it on a proper level is all i'm saying. Me and a few of my friends all played on the same server, we rolled classes that complimented each other, and we rolled together, it was 5 of us. We destroyed groups of 8 or more often becuase we worked together. Granted we're still newbs to the classes, but we balanced the best we could and were able to do alot more damage than 15 random melee classes "zerging" the middle for flags. Yes, in that sense the game is to short, combat is fast and it ends fast. ORGANIZED pvp on the other hand, is a whole new ball game. In world of warcraft, you could make games like 10 shaman warsong gulch games and utterly smash the other team. On this game, if you tried a scenario with 10 mages, you probably won't do to good.
So to summarize, Yes if you zerg and play badly, you are correct in saying the combat is fast and short. If you play it how it was intended to be played, organized, balanced, strategized, you will see much longer more thought out lengthy combat.
And I apologize if my first post seemed "Hateful," it just seemed like someone with your experience should know that any amount of pug groups without healers or organization should know that the combat they experience will be cut short and quick.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
"Quite simply classes have a limited amount of abilties compared to otehr games. PvE Fights last 15 seconds or less. The same couple of abilities are sued over and over in PvE. Combat is quite simple and classes are limited. Abilties need longer refresh. Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaninful options that allow skillful players and groups to seperate themselves from other players. That is not the case. "
I disagree. There are lots of abilities that have cooldowns and choices should be made based on those, my core abilities, are not always available, i have to choose carefully which one, and when to use it. Both of my characters had plenty of abilities with 15 second cooldowns on them.
I just don't see where you are getting this "style" from. You haven't even played at level 40 yet. You haven't done any of the games main content on full scale. You do not have experience with end-game at all, or even partial end-game, you may have closed-beta tested, but man-oh man you did something different from the closed beta I watched and got to try. If you leveled to 57 in world of warcraft, and try to comment on the pvp content of arenas and battlegrounds, people would laugh at you so hard. You know nothing of the end game content, and it seems more and more obvious that you know nothing of mid-game either.
Your comment about "Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaninful options that allow skillful players and groups to seperate themselves from other players. That is not the case." It is just plain not true. If i got my 4 friends and my account, and you gathered 5 random people including yourself, you really think you'd win? We'd roll you in a heart beat. This remains true with arena in world of warcraft, in 5's as well. Now just amplify that by like 5 times, so were talkin 25 players against 25 players at a tier 2 keep, you REALLY, HONESTLY believe that the fight will last 15 seconds, and require no skill? If you truly believe that, you have got a lot to learn.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
If anything Combat is to fast. Fights are to short. Refresh timers are to short. The number of abilities to choose form even at high levels is somewhat limited. There simply is not enough thought and options in combat. I know War is directed at the more casual crowd and the PvP crowd. But because those groups lack attention span is not a reason to dumb down or simplify the combat. Now this being said the combat is nto terrible and completely lacking in thought or skill like simple games like AoC. But it could be so much better.
Clearly your experience was different from that of mine, if combat is to fast and fights are to short, either you are doing something wrong, or your zerging like morons.
This is just a flame thread you've started, you state comments without showing any evidence of such, nor represent how you have experience of "the number of abilities to choose from even at high levels is somewhat limited".
Personally I think you have very little experience, you got to your toon to level 11 or 12, and realized you were terrible and just kept dying. Or the game was to complex for your mind, I don't know it could be a billion things.
By level 12 my shaman had so many abilities I could barely find time to use them all before most of them died, so this "the abilities to choose from is limited" crap is nonsense.
Provide some real concrete details explaining how the combat is lacking, don't just say something and expect everyone to jump in and sing with you.
I am in closed beta and have gotten chars to 25 and have used the 31 template chars. In the open beta weekend I leveled another char to 20. I am not sure why you felt the need to express mindless hate simply because I happen to disagree with you. But yes i feel the combat is to fast and the fights are to short. Every game does not have an in depth skillful involved combat system and nor is War's terrible but its just average and it could be a lot better if fights allowed us more options and thought.
Quite simply classes have a limited amount of abilities compared to other games. PvE Fights last 15 seconds or less. The same couple of abilities are sued over and over in PvE. Combat is quite simple and classes are limited. Abilities need longer refresh. Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaningful options that allow skillful players and groups to separate themselves from other players. That is not the case.
Ok, let me try to re-explain without sounding "hateful" or prejudice. I played wow for years, and just about every other MMO out there to-date. I was not part of the closed beta, but have several friends who are and was able to get some experience in the "extended" end of the game.
I will agree the combat is fast paced, but if your team is good and has half a brain, your fights will not be "quickly over" or zerg-fest like. Get your tanks/melee dps out front, healers guarded in the back, or use terrain as advantages, etc.. etc..
If you felt the fights are to short, then you haven't played it on a proper level is all i'm saying. Me and a few of my friends all played on the same server, we rolled classes that complimented each other, and we rolled together, it was 5 of us. We destroyed groups of 8 or more often becuase we worked together. Granted we're still newbs to the classes, but we balanced the best we could and were able to do alot more damage than 15 random melee classes "zerging" the middle for flags. Yes, in that sense the game is to short, combat is fast and it ends fast. ORGANIZED pvp on the other hand, is a whole new ball game. In world of warcraft, you could make games like 10 shaman warsong gulch games and utterly smash the other team. On this game, if you tried a scenario with 10 mages, you probably won't do to good.
So to summarize, Yes if you zerg and play badly, you are correct in saying the combat is fast and short. If you play it how it was intended to be played, organized, balanced, strategized, you will see much longer more thought out lengthy combat.
And I apologize if my first post seemed "Hateful," it just seemed like someone with your experience should know that any amount of pug groups without healers or organization should know that the combat they experience will be cut short and quick.
Apology accepted. But I was not talking about PvP rather than PvE. PvP is a whole different ballgame. But for PvE look at DAOC for example. Its fights were much longer, classes had lots more abilities with many chain, positional and reactive attacks. During combat one had to make meaningfull choices as to what ability to use and how to conserve mana and end. Similar choices are in Vanguard where a skilled group achieve so much mroe than those who lack skill. Warhammer's combat is not terrible. I would rate it far ahead of a game like EQ2 which relies on a lot on mindless button mashing rather than thought. But Warahammer combat could be much better. Warhammer adds some positional attacks and some choices but the length of fights, the limited number of abilities, lack of challenge levlel of Mobs, the lack of need to conserve mana and end make combat pretty thoughtless in PvE. The biggest drawback being the length of combat and the challenge level of MOBs.
I had no idea you were talking about PvE, but this game isn't about pve, it's a pvp game, realm versus realm , scenario challenges, and things of that matter. The PvE is not grand at first, but later on they will add more i'm sure of it. But think about world of warcraft when it first came out too. Personally, I dont like PvE a whole lot, I enjoy watching some of the battles, but having to do the same crap over and over again just got old.
In wow I was in a black temple guild, and we had it basically on farm status, I was a druid healer, and could basically watch television, have ventrilo going, and instant messenger on my other monitor, and still not have any trouble maintaining heals on whoever it was I needed to. That kind of boring pve was pretty much how ALL bosses became once the fight was learned, and then it got boring fast, and it was a grind fest to get everyone their gear.
Warhammer is not about a grindfest for gear, which I personally believe is one of it's greatest selling points! You can get right in there from level 1 and pvp if you want to, (your hp may go up to level 8, but believe me, your one ability isn't doing much) and level from that alone if you want to. If you're lookin for strictly long pve, try out FFXI, some of those fights lasted hours and hours.
EDIT: Give it time, they will add lots of PVE content, and even though you said you beta tested and tried the 31, you still have not tried end-game. End-game is where it's at. Everyone knows that, you can't judge a game until you have played it from the end-game perspective. And no, that does not include buying a fully leveled character and pretending you know what you're doing.
Every MMO releases with a lot of content 'yet-to-come' becuase otherwise it would be silly, how else would they retain customers? Look at blizzard, when they first released wow, it had almost nothing to do at end-game aside from a few 5 man instances. Within about 6 months they had released lots of content, and i'm sure warhammer will likely do the same.
As for the abilities and the lack-there-of you speak of, well, thats just a matter of opinion and class. Tanks usually have lots to do in a battle, healers CAN have a lot to do, then there is your basic melee classes that usually involve mashing of a few buttons, but in reality, all pve is easy once you understand the fight. It never changes, thats why I love pvp so much. PvP doesn't account for the human factor, which is always changing, makes you think on your feet. If they had bosses that were a different fight every time, I might be more interested in PvE, but once you're guild has learned the fight, and learns it well, it's the most boring thing in the world to participate in.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
I didnt even read most of the thread....but here is a video showing how fast combo is if you have some skill. If you don't like the combat dont play the game....
I played a Black Orc, the combo system really seems entertaining to me, and it wasn't slow to me in the least. Could hack light armor wearers in about 10-15 seconds, provided they didn't attack me when I taunted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Currently Waiting For: Nothing, found my addiction for awhile
Currently Playing: Warhammer Online - Oblivion, Warrior Priest, Averheim; Team Fortress 2
The PvP did not seem slow to me. It definitely takes more time to kill someone in this game then WoW. For me this is a good thing. It is my preference for combat to actually take 10 seconds. Glass Cannons can still get owned fast. This is usually their own fault however, because if your a cloth wearing wizard and a giant warrior comes running at you... maybe it would be a good time to run away, or at least run towards friends?
Look at it in the bright way: You can watch a movie in the background and still get the rewards.
Which is why the game is full of fail... any game that becomes so SLOW and boring that you can do other things, besides pay attention to it and still succeed is NOT a challenge...
What always surprise me with this forum is that everyone knows everything.Have you ever wonder why no dev make official response here ? For all morons who always stick their fingers in their asses and smell it as if it's the latest Channel 5 perfume please read www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php
Just be advised you aren't allowed to hate on the game there at ALL...
combat speed seems fine to me from gameplay. im already spamming abilities non-stop and running out of points it can't get any faster unless they reduce GCD.
Coming from LOTRO, and having played a month of AoC, I really found the 'speed' of the combat really no great difference from these games. I like it and find it really no different to most of the games I have played.
I am not really sure why people are complaining about the 'speed' of combat in WAR. Maybe its because too many WoW players are used to to the one on one PvP, where you hop around all day.
PS. Only played like 6 hrs on the weekend, so only scenarios.
He is not refering to how many spell you have or will have, he is refering to the 2 sec cooldown after your spell. So YES it is still slow, when you cast an instant spell, your toon stays still for 2 sec before doing anything else.
Aaah.. I don't know why someone would make it work that way, but I now I at least understand what I'm seeing.
So everything stops for 2secs after any special skill, eh? That's sort of... unconventional. Have they explained why they've made it that way?
Ok, Elder Beta tester here *Stamped*
From what I gather, they want combat to last x amount of time. You can do that in several ways. The GCD is one way they keep control on that formula. In that way people can't exceed x damage every 2 seconds and 1-2 shot kill without someone having time to counter/heal etc.
That is where alot of people are getting the "strategic" perception from.
Personally, I like it much better. When people get more skilled at the system as time goes on, it can make for some epic battles between some combatants.
As an example for the other style. I fought in a BG in WOW the previous week, and my experience was as follows as a level 70 (mind you I am partially epic geared, all blue/purple with PvP gear that is mail. Not an easy target, but not impossible) I walked towards a contested flag. I get hit once, half hp gone, turn towards attacker and before a button is pushed, dead. not what I call a "positive gaming experience" It didn't just happen once or with just me.
Back to WAR. even with the highest burst damage DPS in here, that would not happen. I will at least get to see my opponent and actually do something in the fight. Again, my preference. They seem to take the phrase "One shot kills PvP" to heart. No system or formula is perfect yet on any game. And this system is still in beta with adjustments to be made. Combat has improved greatly since I first got it, and I think is still improving. Will it change to what you seem to want? I don't think it will. This won't be the game that the person who hits the most buttons in the right order the fastest wins.
There are extremes, both fast and slow. Go one way (fastest) and you get more average players fustrated and quitting because they cannot even feel like the contribute (see example of BG above). WAR seems to be on the slower end, which seems to be loosing some of the ultra competitive crowd that wants it to be a challenge to their speed skills. I look at WAR as having a different type of challenge. To plan out and win in combat over a longer period of time and adapt/overcome opponents. That takes a different type of skill than speed. I just wished more people would look to adapt to the challenges that each game has, than to demand every game be only challenges that they are skilled in.
I hope this makes you think at least. Have a good day
I think this was a bad way to make combat last longer. If anything they should have lowered the damage instead of using the Global cooldown timer.
I want combat to last longer, I just don't want to be standing around while I'm waiting for the end. I want to be invvolved!
Some of you I believe think he means the length of combat. From what I gathered from his question, he wanted to know how long it was between attacks. He feels like me and doesn't want to be standing around doing nothing.
Also someone said that they saw some one-shot kills.
I think this was a bad way to make combat last longer. If anything they should have lowered the damage instead of using the Global cooldown timer. I want combat to last longer, I just don't want to be standing around while I'm waiting for the end. I want to be invvolved! Some of you I believe think he means the length of combat. From what I gathered from his question, he wanted to know how long it was between attacks. He feels like me and doesn't want to be standing around doing nothing. Also someone said that they saw some one-shot kills. Grrrrrr, I hope not!!!!!
The Time to Kill is higher than in others MMOs. No idea about the one shot but thats uncoomon. You will need to hit several times to kill or been hit several times. You wont be killed in three shots neither (this is assuming a lvl 11 is not nuking a naked lower lvl and event them is not easy to kill the target as other games).
The lower GCD makes the fight faster but people run out of Action Points too. Healers heal nice too.
They are working on responsiviness and graphic combats. I hope they improve them before release.
Anyway, TTK and GCD are perfect for my taste.
For the description of what you like and you dont like, I think you will enjoy the fight in this game. Anyway, give it a try and see for yourself.
its exsactly as it is in WOW . 1.5 seconds global cooldown! to be sure that lag doesn't kill the game. I the rest is just that we have witnessed a betatest where things doesn't looks cool and seemless until the 1.5 global cooldown is aligned with the animations.
Complete and utter lie.
The cooldown = 2 seconds on the UI. And THAT (!) is the button you are playing . Right !
Cooldown is double that of Wow (1 sec). With spell haste it's even faster these days.
How much wrong hype do you need???
How about the combined results of laggy spellbars and out of synch animations?
Oh people will find out for themselves in a few weeks.
I'd say believe the hype: the more wrongly praised hype, the bigger the fall.
Fanboys of WAR would even let you believe that buffs and healing were Crowd Control functions.
So blind (oh blinding is now also in the game I suppose ) )))
WoW's GCD is 1.5 sec except for the rogue class stop making up these dumb responses, in the other threads i just really thought you were mentally challenged but now i understand your just making stuff up your saying that the GDC is 1 sec and its faster with SPELL HASTE?!? LOL this is a blatant lie, casters have a 1.5sec standard GCD that can be decreased down to 1 sec and it cant go below 1sec.
It has been stated by the developers and alot of people that the GCD on WAR is 1.4 seconds and the 2 seconds is just a display error.
I havent played WAR yet and cant tell you how fast or slow the combat is, but my advice would be try it out for yourself good or bad im afraid you are not going to get a conclusive response here, all you can do is filter through all these threads try to figure out the state of the game until you try it, people like the person i quoted are committed to bad mouth the game at any costs from what i noticed.
"- Reality and perception are two different things, Warhammer has a GCD of 1.4s, WoW has 1.5s"
That quote is directly from Mythic. Combat speed was not a problem. The perception was, and learning the rythm further fueled the issue. Two things of note: one - the "Ability Not Ready Yet" message is being tweaked so it's not so annoying. Two - a "soft-queue" is being added.
Once I got the rythm down, this game was as fast as any other mmo I've played. The combat was also more fun and far less frustrating in pvp. Those who were "1-2 shotted" were likely level 3s fighting level 10s in the renown gear. The amazing thing is that even at level 3 I found ways to contribute. The game rewards everyone - long-time players will always find a way to get decent gear (in all areas of play), strategists will always find a way of contributing regardless of their gear, and groups that play well together will be able to mitigate the advantages of either. To me, at least, things are just as they should be in WAR.
I didnt even read most of the thread....but here is a video showing how fast combo is if you have some skill. If you don't like the combat dont play the game.... Check it out... Looks pretty quick to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-YUqNbmZ1c
Thanks for the link. That's the sort of fluent from move-to-move combat I was hoping for
And seeing as everyone seems to be using World of Warcraft as a comparison; Consider how their wood elves dance in combat. They're always moving, even if you restrict yourself to autoattacks they'll still be flowing through one animation to a next without stopping to stand completely still and stare. Yet the video also shows what had me concerned: At 0:24 to 0:28 the Chaos guy stands still staring at his target (it happens a few other times, but I'm guessing that's because he isn't facing the target). I assume that's the bug Leocifer is talking about.
Originally posted by Leocifer
I played a Disciple and I feel like the combat is fine. The only problem/bug that I see is sometimes my character does the skill animation, but the skill doesn't really go through. As a Disciple I did auto-attack in between my skills, but the animation doesn't show everytime, but I saw the damage scrolling up. If the combat can be on the same responsive level that WoW is and all the combat animations show and are fluent, then the combat will feel faster and a lot better.
And that's all I needed to hear really. If the auto-attack between specials occasionally is bugged and we're supposed to always be in motion then I'm happy because I'm sure they'll get the animation fixed eventually ^^
Isn't anyone else holding their breath when combat stops like that? I can't help it and it unsettles me. It's sort of the same odd feeling as from playing The Witcher, which is a great game but has awkward controls and collision detection.
I didnt even read most of the thread....but here is a video showing how fast combo is if you have some skill. If you don't like the combat dont play the game.... Check it out... Looks pretty quick to me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-YUqNbmZ1c
Thanks for the link. That's the sort of fluent from move-to-move combat I was hoping for
And seeing as everyone seems to be using World of Warcraft as a comparison; Consider how their wood elves dance in combat. They're always moving, even if you restrict yourself to autoattacks they'll still be flowing through one animation to a next without stopping to stand completely still and stare. Yet the video also shows what had me concerned: At 0:24 to 0:28 the Chaos guy stands still staring at his target (it happens a few other times, but I'm guessing that's because he isn't facing the target). I assume that's the bug Leocifer is talking about.
Originally posted by Leocifer
I played a Disciple and I feel like the combat is fine. The only problem/bug that I see is sometimes my character does the skill animation, but the skill doesn't really go through. As a Disciple I did auto-attack in between my skills, but the animation doesn't show everytime, but I saw the damage scrolling up. If the combat can be on the same responsive level that WoW is and all the combat animations show and are fluent, then the combat will feel faster and a lot better.
And that's all I needed to hear really. If the auto-attack between specials occasionally is bugged and we're supposed to always be in motion then I'm happy because I'm sure they'll get the animation fixed eventually ^^
Isn't anyone else holding their breath when combat stops like that? I can't help it and it unsettles me. It's sort of the same odd feeling as from playing The Witcher, which is a great game but has awkward controls and collision detection.
Aye, they have to fix problems with graphic combats and responsiveness. And yes... about the holding breath. hehe
didn't seem slow to me at all had alot of fun on my witch hunter when i tried the pvp the last night of preview weekend.didn't play any one class for a long time (buisy weekend r/l) also because i knew they would be deleted so just wanted to try out the different classes. 2 really stood out for me and those was the witch hunter and deciple of khane and the highest of those 2 was 9..lol didn't play too much at all but REALLY wanted to.
What always surprise me with this forum is that everyone knows everything.Have you ever wonder why no dev make official response here ? For all morons who always stick their fingers in their asses and smell it as if it's the latest Channel 5 perfume please read www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php
Just be advised you aren't allowed to hate on the game there at ALL...
I don`t hate on the game at all but what I do hate is reading a lot of garbage not only on WAR forums but also on most forums thread on MMORPG.There a lot of jerks who believes they know everything thats why I linked the post of Mark Jacobs.And yet the morons keep saying that the GCD is too long and combat is slow...may be they are more informed than Mark Jacobs.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
During the beta I played a Chosen and a Magus each to level 13 through a mix of getting all the PvE content I could while cramming inbetween with RvR. I had a level 8 Marauder and Sorcerer I was tinkering around with, and a Goblin Shaman at level five that I admittedly didn't do all to much with. So two casters, a tank, and a melee DPS.
The combat, as I saw it at first, was a little slow. But then I got used to it and figured through the GCD's little glitches on spell cast that sometimes some self control instead of grinding the keys to strain the spell out will be necessary at times. But they're fixing the 1.4s GCD's sluggish-ness.
After I got used to the game the combat was amazing. Long fights are drawn on for a good thing. The tanks' survivability without a healer is good let alone with one. Melee DPS all tear things apart like they're tissue paper while the casters can do the same if they play their game right. Yes, just because this is a new game that sounds more casual doesn't mean you get to stand there. Casters need to move too.
I felt amazed. There were NO points that seemed reminiscent of any game I've played before where one person with the mega-ridiculous gear would swing by, land a couple crits and move on to the next fresh target. Open field PvP is great at Emskrank. Didn't try any of the other places, but Chaos/Empire first RvR zone at times had two small armies pitted against each other, nearly full warbands (raids). It'll last a while but it's everyone's duty to put forth all their abilities to make sure one side wins.
As for standing still inbetween auto-attacks, I'm sure there will be times when it does seem that way. But I'm not sure if we're in the 22nd century yet. All MMOs I've played thus far, even WoW, have cooldowns where people looks stupid standing still holding there weapon and not swinging it. But to me if they were always moving that's just one bit of eye candy lost. The game makes up for it.
It is far from slow.
--------------------- Sniper is another term for unorthodox surgeon.
Okay straight up answer from someone that plays as an Elder Tester and played the Preview weekend.
Also have played almost everyone MMO on the released games list.
I played as a Disciple of Khaine in the Preview. The combat is not Slow. It is no slower then WoW is at low levels. Compare a level 10 Rogue to a level 10 Disciple of Khaine and their melee combat speed is about equal.
People that are stating that the combat is slow are trying to compare level 70 WoW characters with bonuses (such as Haste) and more skills to low level WAR characters. Of course WAR combat is going to look slower but in reality it is not. There is no noticable difference later on.
I have a level 70 Rogue in WoW (on a currently played account) with a mix of Season 2 & 3 gear for PVP and Tier 4 to 6 gear for PVE. The combat feels just as fluid on WAR as it does on WoW. I feel that the animations on WoW are still more fluid though but the speed of combat is about the same. (One of WoW's biggest strengths are the quality of animation, heck I think they are closer to Pixar in animation quality then the rest of the MMO games out there). I would say that WAR has better animations in my opinion the DAoC had and it seems better to me then AoC does as well.
Is tier 1 combat going to be extremely fast and comparable to level 70 WoW combat of course not, but it is ridiculous to even think it should be.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Comments
Clearly your experience was different from that of mine, if combat is to fast and fights are to short, either you are doing something wrong, or your zerging like morons.
This is just a flame thread you've started, you state comments without showing any evidence of such, nor represent how you have experience of "the number of abilities to choose from even at high levels is somewhat limited".
Personally I think you have very little experience, you got to your toon to level 11 or 12, and realized you were terrible and just kept dying. Or the game was to complex for your mind, I don't know it could be a billion things.
By level 12 my shaman had so many abilities I could barely find time to use them all before most of them died, so this "the abilities to choose from is limited" crap is nonsense.
Provide some real concrete details explaining how the combat is lacking, don't just say something and expect everyone to jump in and sing with you.
I am in closed beta and have gotten chars to 25 and have used the 31 template chars. In the open beta weekend I leveled another char to 20. I am not sure why you felt the need to express mindless hate simply because I happen to disagree with you. But yes i feel the combat is to fast and the fights are to short. Every game does nto have an in depth skillful involved combat system and nor is War;s tyerrible but its just average and it could be a lot better if fights allowed us more options and thought.
Ok, let me try to re-explain without sounding "hateful" or prejudice. I played wow for years, and just about every other MMO out there to-date. I was not part of the closed beta, but have several friends who are and was able to get some experience in the "extended" end of the game.
I will agree the combat is fast paced, but if your team is good and has half a brain, your fights will not be "quickly over" or zerg-fest like. Get your tanks/melee dps out front, healers guarded in the back, or use terrain as advantages, etc.. etc..
If you felt the fights are to short, then you haven't played it on a proper level is all i'm saying. Me and a few of my friends all played on the same server, we rolled classes that complimented each other, and we rolled together, it was 5 of us. We destroyed groups of 8 or more often becuase we worked together. Granted we're still newbs to the classes, but we balanced the best we could and were able to do alot more damage than 15 random melee classes "zerging" the middle for flags. Yes, in that sense the game is to short, combat is fast and it ends fast. ORGANIZED pvp on the other hand, is a whole new ball game. In world of warcraft, you could make games like 10 shaman warsong gulch games and utterly smash the other team. On this game, if you tried a scenario with 10 mages, you probably won't do to good.
So to summarize, Yes if you zerg and play badly, you are correct in saying the combat is fast and short. If you play it how it was intended to be played, organized, balanced, strategized, you will see much longer more thought out lengthy combat.
And I apologize if my first post seemed "Hateful," it just seemed like someone with your experience should know that any amount of pug groups without healers or organization should know that the combat they experience will be cut short and quick.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
"Quite simply classes have a limited amount of abilties compared to otehr games. PvE Fights last 15 seconds or less. The same couple of abilities are sued over and over in PvE. Combat is quite simple and classes are limited. Abilties need longer refresh. Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaninful options that allow skillful players and groups to seperate themselves from other players. That is not the case. "
I disagree. There are lots of abilities that have cooldowns and choices should be made based on those, my core abilities, are not always available, i have to choose carefully which one, and when to use it. Both of my characters had plenty of abilities with 15 second cooldowns on them.
I just don't see where you are getting this "style" from. You haven't even played at level 40 yet. You haven't done any of the games main content on full scale. You do not have experience with end-game at all, or even partial end-game, you may have closed-beta tested, but man-oh man you did something different from the closed beta I watched and got to try. If you leveled to 57 in world of warcraft, and try to comment on the pvp content of arenas and battlegrounds, people would laugh at you so hard. You know nothing of the end game content, and it seems more and more obvious that you know nothing of mid-game either.
Your comment about "Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaninful options that allow skillful players and groups to seperate themselves from other players. That is not the case." It is just plain not true. If i got my 4 friends and my account, and you gathered 5 random people including yourself, you really think you'd win? We'd roll you in a heart beat. This remains true with arena in world of warcraft, in 5's as well. Now just amplify that by like 5 times, so were talkin 25 players against 25 players at a tier 2 keep, you REALLY, HONESTLY believe that the fight will last 15 seconds, and require no skill? If you truly believe that, you have got a lot to learn.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
I am in closed beta and have gotten chars to 25 and have used the 31 template chars. In the open beta weekend I leveled another char to 20. I am not sure why you felt the need to express mindless hate simply because I happen to disagree with you. But yes i feel the combat is to fast and the fights are to short. Every game does not have an in depth skillful involved combat system and nor is War's terrible but its just average and it could be a lot better if fights allowed us more options and thought.
Quite simply classes have a limited amount of abilities compared to other games. PvE Fights last 15 seconds or less. The same couple of abilities are sued over and over in PvE. Combat is quite simple and classes are limited. Abilities need longer refresh. Choices should be made in Combat and there should be meaningful options that allow skillful players and groups to separate themselves from other players. That is not the case.
Ok, let me try to re-explain without sounding "hateful" or prejudice. I played wow for years, and just about every other MMO out there to-date. I was not part of the closed beta, but have several friends who are and was able to get some experience in the "extended" end of the game.
I will agree the combat is fast paced, but if your team is good and has half a brain, your fights will not be "quickly over" or zerg-fest like. Get your tanks/melee dps out front, healers guarded in the back, or use terrain as advantages, etc.. etc..
If you felt the fights are to short, then you haven't played it on a proper level is all i'm saying. Me and a few of my friends all played on the same server, we rolled classes that complimented each other, and we rolled together, it was 5 of us. We destroyed groups of 8 or more often becuase we worked together. Granted we're still newbs to the classes, but we balanced the best we could and were able to do alot more damage than 15 random melee classes "zerging" the middle for flags. Yes, in that sense the game is to short, combat is fast and it ends fast. ORGANIZED pvp on the other hand, is a whole new ball game. In world of warcraft, you could make games like 10 shaman warsong gulch games and utterly smash the other team. On this game, if you tried a scenario with 10 mages, you probably won't do to good.
So to summarize, Yes if you zerg and play badly, you are correct in saying the combat is fast and short. If you play it how it was intended to be played, organized, balanced, strategized, you will see much longer more thought out lengthy combat.
And I apologize if my first post seemed "Hateful," it just seemed like someone with your experience should know that any amount of pug groups without healers or organization should know that the combat they experience will be cut short and quick.
Apology accepted.
But I was not talking about PvP rather than PvE. PvP is a whole different ballgame. But for PvE look at DAOC for example. Its fights were much longer, classes had lots more abilities with many chain, positional and reactive attacks. During combat one had to make meaningfull choices as to what ability to use and how to conserve mana and end. Similar choices are in Vanguard where a skilled group achieve so much mroe than those who lack skill. Warhammer's combat is not terrible. I would rate it far ahead of a game like EQ2 which relies on a lot on mindless button mashing rather than thought. But Warahammer combat could be much better. Warhammer adds some positional attacks and some choices but the length of fights, the limited number of abilities, lack of challenge levlel of Mobs, the lack of need to conserve mana and end make combat pretty thoughtless in PvE. The biggest drawback being the length of combat and the challenge level of MOBs.
Reply to zippy:
OK i see what when wrong here.
I had no idea you were talking about PvE, but this game isn't about pve, it's a pvp game, realm versus realm , scenario challenges, and things of that matter. The PvE is not grand at first, but later on they will add more i'm sure of it. But think about world of warcraft when it first came out too. Personally, I dont like PvE a whole lot, I enjoy watching some of the battles, but having to do the same crap over and over again just got old.
In wow I was in a black temple guild, and we had it basically on farm status, I was a druid healer, and could basically watch television, have ventrilo going, and instant messenger on my other monitor, and still not have any trouble maintaining heals on whoever it was I needed to. That kind of boring pve was pretty much how ALL bosses became once the fight was learned, and then it got boring fast, and it was a grind fest to get everyone their gear.
Warhammer is not about a grindfest for gear, which I personally believe is one of it's greatest selling points! You can get right in there from level 1 and pvp if you want to, (your hp may go up to level 8, but believe me, your one ability isn't doing much) and level from that alone if you want to. If you're lookin for strictly long pve, try out FFXI, some of those fights lasted hours and hours.
EDIT: Give it time, they will add lots of PVE content, and even though you said you beta tested and tried the 31, you still have not tried end-game. End-game is where it's at. Everyone knows that, you can't judge a game until you have played it from the end-game perspective. And no, that does not include buying a fully leveled character and pretending you know what you're doing.
Every MMO releases with a lot of content 'yet-to-come' becuase otherwise it would be silly, how else would they retain customers? Look at blizzard, when they first released wow, it had almost nothing to do at end-game aside from a few 5 man instances. Within about 6 months they had released lots of content, and i'm sure warhammer will likely do the same.
As for the abilities and the lack-there-of you speak of, well, thats just a matter of opinion and class. Tanks usually have lots to do in a battle, healers CAN have a lot to do, then there is your basic melee classes that usually involve mashing of a few buttons, but in reality, all pve is easy once you understand the fight. It never changes, thats why I love pvp so much. PvP doesn't account for the human factor, which is always changing, makes you think on your feet. If they had bosses that were a different fight every time, I might be more interested in PvE, but once you're guild has learned the fight, and learns it well, it's the most boring thing in the world to participate in.
-- Games are never as fun as their hype. It's still doing the same things as 90% of the MMOs ever since EQ1 wrote the template for 3D MMOs.
-- You can't ever be that newbie again. Not Warhammer, not WoW, not AoC, or any other MMO out there claiming originality.
-- You, I, and many other people won't be satisfied until once again we can be immersed,as newbs once more, into a mysterious realm of which we know nothing.
I didnt even read most of the thread....but here is a video showing how fast combo is if you have some skill. If you don't like the combat dont play the game....
Check it out...
Looks pretty quick to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-YUqNbmZ1c
Uhh... what?
No.
I played a Black Orc, the combo system really seems entertaining to me, and it wasn't slow to me in the least. Could hack light armor wearers in about 10-15 seconds, provided they didn't attack me when I taunted.
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Currently Waiting For: Nothing, found my addiction for awhile
Currently Playing: Warhammer Online - Oblivion, Warrior Priest, Averheim; Team Fortress 2
What always surprise me with this forum is that everyone knows everything
.Have you ever wonder why no dev make official response here 
?
For all morons who always stick their fingers in their asses and smell it as if it's the latest Channel 5 perfume please read www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
No, I think the combat speed is fine.
Combat feels like garbage. Also, classes are garbage as well. Half the classes have "frost nova". I mean, it just feels lame.
They need to take my RVR/PVP lesson on kiting.
Which is why the game is full of fail... any game that becomes so SLOW and boring that you can do other things, besides pay attention to it and still succeed is NOT a challenge...
Just be advised you aren't allowed to hate on the game there at ALL...
combat speed seems fine to me from gameplay. im already spamming abilities non-stop and running out of points it can't get any faster unless they reduce GCD.
Coming from LOTRO, and having played a month of AoC, I really found the 'speed' of the combat really no great difference from these games. I like it and find it really no different to most of the games I have played.
I am not really sure why people are complaining about the 'speed' of combat in WAR. Maybe its because too many WoW players are used to to the one on one PvP, where you hop around all day.
PS. Only played like 6 hrs on the weekend, so only scenarios.
He is not refering to how many spell you have or will have, he is refering to the 2 sec cooldown after your spell. So YES it is still slow, when you cast an instant spell, your toon stays still for 2 sec before doing anything else.
Aaah.. I don't know why someone would make it work that way, but I now I at least understand what I'm seeing.
So everything stops for 2secs after any special skill, eh? That's sort of... unconventional. Have they explained why they've made it that way?
Ok, Elder Beta tester here *Stamped*
From what I gather, they want combat to last x amount of time. You can do that in several ways. The GCD is one way they keep control on that formula. In that way people can't exceed x damage every 2 seconds and 1-2 shot kill without someone having time to counter/heal etc.
That is where alot of people are getting the "strategic" perception from.
Personally, I like it much better. When people get more skilled at the system as time goes on, it can make for some epic battles between some combatants.
As an example for the other style. I fought in a BG in WOW the previous week, and my experience was as follows as a level 70 (mind you I am partially epic geared, all blue/purple with PvP gear that is mail. Not an easy target, but not impossible) I walked towards a contested flag. I get hit once, half hp gone, turn towards attacker and before a button is pushed, dead. not what I call a "positive gaming experience" It didn't just happen once or with just me.
Back to WAR. even with the highest burst damage DPS in here, that would not happen. I will at least get to see my opponent and actually do something in the fight. Again, my preference. They seem to take the phrase "One shot kills PvP" to heart. No system or formula is perfect yet on any game. And this system is still in beta with adjustments to be made. Combat has improved greatly since I first got it, and I think is still improving. Will it change to what you seem to want? I don't think it will. This won't be the game that the person who hits the most buttons in the right order the fastest wins.
There are extremes, both fast and slow. Go one way (fastest) and you get more average players fustrated and quitting because they cannot even feel like the contribute (see example of BG above). WAR seems to be on the slower end, which seems to be loosing some of the ultra competitive crowd that wants it to be a challenge to their speed skills. I look at WAR as having a different type of challenge. To plan out and win in combat over a longer period of time and adapt/overcome opponents. That takes a different type of skill than speed. I just wished more people would look to adapt to the challenges that each game has, than to demand every game be only challenges that they are skilled in.
I hope this makes you think at least. Have a good day
I think this was a bad way to make combat last longer. If anything they should have lowered the damage instead of using the Global cooldown timer.
I want combat to last longer, I just don't want to be standing around while I'm waiting for the end. I want to be invvolved!
Some of you I believe think he means the length of combat. From what I gathered from his question, he wanted to know how long it was between attacks. He feels like me and doesn't want to be standing around doing nothing.
Also someone said that they saw some one-shot kills.
Grrrrrr, I hope not!!!!!
Trust me, you dont stand around doing nothing. So much is going on.
The Time to Kill is higher than in others MMOs. No idea about the one shot but thats uncoomon. You will need to hit several times to kill or been hit several times. You wont be killed in three shots neither (this is assuming a lvl 11 is not nuking a naked lower lvl and event them is not easy to kill the target as other games).
The lower GCD makes the fight faster but people run out of Action Points too. Healers heal nice too.
They are working on responsiviness and graphic combats. I hope they improve them before release.
Anyway, TTK and GCD are perfect for my taste.
For the description of what you like and you dont like, I think you will enjoy the fight in this game. Anyway, give it a try and see for yourself.
Complete and utter lie.
The cooldown = 2 seconds on the UI. And THAT (!) is the button you are playing . Right !
Cooldown is double that of Wow (1 sec). With spell haste it's even faster these days.
How much wrong hype do you need???
How about the combined results of laggy spellbars and out of synch animations?
Oh people will find out for themselves in a few weeks.
I'd say believe the hype: the more wrongly praised hype, the bigger the fall.
Fanboys of WAR would even let you believe that buffs and healing were Crowd Control functions.
So blind (oh blinding is now also in the game I suppose )
)))
WoW's GCD is 1.5 sec except for the rogue class stop making up these dumb responses, in the other threads i just really thought you were mentally challenged but now i understand your just making stuff up your saying that the GDC is 1 sec and its faster with SPELL HASTE?!? LOL this is a blatant lie, casters have a 1.5sec standard GCD that can be decreased down to 1 sec and it cant go below 1sec.
It has been stated by the developers and alot of people that the GCD on WAR is 1.4 seconds and the 2 seconds is just a display error.
I havent played WAR yet and cant tell you how fast or slow the combat is, but my advice would be try it out for yourself good or bad im afraid you are not going to get a conclusive response here, all you can do is filter through all these threads try to figure out the state of the game until you try it, people like the person i quoted are committed to bad mouth the game at any costs from what i noticed.
"- Reality and perception are two different things, Warhammer has a GCD of 1.4s, WoW has 1.5s"
That quote is directly from Mythic. Combat speed was not a problem. The perception was, and learning the rythm further fueled the issue. Two things of note: one - the "Ability Not Ready Yet" message is being tweaked so it's not so annoying. Two - a "soft-queue" is being added.
Once I got the rythm down, this game was as fast as any other mmo I've played. The combat was also more fun and far less frustrating in pvp. Those who were "1-2 shotted" were likely level 3s fighting level 10s in the renown gear. The amazing thing is that even at level 3 I found ways to contribute. The game rewards everyone - long-time players will always find a way to get decent gear (in all areas of play), strategists will always find a way of contributing regardless of their gear, and groups that play well together will be able to mitigate the advantages of either. To me, at least, things are just as they should be in WAR.
Thanks for the link. That's the sort of fluent from move-to-move combat I was hoping for
And seeing as everyone seems to be using World of Warcraft as a comparison; Consider how their wood elves dance in combat. They're always moving, even if you restrict yourself to autoattacks they'll still be flowing through one animation to a next without stopping to stand completely still and stare. Yet the video also shows what had me concerned: At 0:24 to 0:28 the Chaos guy stands still staring at his target (it happens a few other times, but I'm guessing that's because he isn't facing the target). I assume that's the bug Leocifer is talking about.
And that's all I needed to hear really. If the auto-attack between specials occasionally is bugged and we're supposed to always be in motion then I'm happy because I'm sure they'll get the animation fixed eventually ^^
Isn't anyone else holding their breath when combat stops like that? I can't help it and it unsettles me. It's sort of the same odd feeling as from playing The Witcher, which is a great game but has awkward controls and collision detection.
Thanks for the link. That's the sort of fluent from move-to-move combat I was hoping for
And seeing as everyone seems to be using World of Warcraft as a comparison; Consider how their wood elves dance in combat. They're always moving, even if you restrict yourself to autoattacks they'll still be flowing through one animation to a next without stopping to stand completely still and stare. Yet the video also shows what had me concerned: At 0:24 to 0:28 the Chaos guy stands still staring at his target (it happens a few other times, but I'm guessing that's because he isn't facing the target). I assume that's the bug Leocifer is talking about.
And that's all I needed to hear really. If the auto-attack between specials occasionally is bugged and we're supposed to always be in motion then I'm happy because I'm sure they'll get the animation fixed eventually ^^
Isn't anyone else holding their breath when combat stops like that? I can't help it and it unsettles me. It's sort of the same odd feeling as from playing The Witcher, which is a great game but has awkward controls and collision detection.
Aye, they have to fix problems with graphic combats and responsiveness. And yes... about the holding breath. hehe
didn't seem slow to me at all had alot of fun on my witch hunter when i tried the pvp the last night of preview weekend.didn't play any one class for a long time (buisy weekend r/l) also because i knew they would be deleted so just wanted to try out the different classes. 2 really stood out for me and those was the witch hunter and deciple of khane and the highest of those 2 was 9..lol didn't play too much at all but REALLY wanted to.
Just be advised you aren't allowed to hate on the game there at ALL...
I don`t hate on the game at all but what I do hate is reading a lot of garbage not only on WAR forums but also on most forums thread on MMORPG.There a lot of jerks who believes they know everything thats why I linked the post of Mark Jacobs.And yet the morons keep saying that the GCD is too long and combat is slow...may be they are more informed than Mark Jacobs.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
During the beta I played a Chosen and a Magus each to level 13 through a mix of getting all the PvE content I could while cramming inbetween with RvR. I had a level 8 Marauder and Sorcerer I was tinkering around with, and a Goblin Shaman at level five that I admittedly didn't do all to much with. So two casters, a tank, and a melee DPS.
The combat, as I saw it at first, was a little slow. But then I got used to it and figured through the GCD's little glitches on spell cast that sometimes some self control instead of grinding the keys to strain the spell out will be necessary at times. But they're fixing the 1.4s GCD's sluggish-ness.
After I got used to the game the combat was amazing. Long fights are drawn on for a good thing. The tanks' survivability without a healer is good let alone with one. Melee DPS all tear things apart like they're tissue paper while the casters can do the same if they play their game right. Yes, just because this is a new game that sounds more casual doesn't mean you get to stand there. Casters need to move too.
I felt amazed. There were NO points that seemed reminiscent of any game I've played before where one person with the mega-ridiculous gear would swing by, land a couple crits and move on to the next fresh target. Open field PvP is great at Emskrank. Didn't try any of the other places, but Chaos/Empire first RvR zone at times had two small armies pitted against each other, nearly full warbands (raids). It'll last a while but it's everyone's duty to put forth all their abilities to make sure one side wins.
As for standing still inbetween auto-attacks, I'm sure there will be times when it does seem that way. But I'm not sure if we're in the 22nd century yet. All MMOs I've played thus far, even WoW, have cooldowns where people looks stupid standing still holding there weapon and not swinging it. But to me if they were always moving that's just one bit of eye candy lost. The game makes up for it.
It is far from slow.
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Sniper is another term for unorthodox surgeon.
Okay straight up answer from someone that plays as an Elder Tester and played the Preview weekend.
Also have played almost everyone MMO on the released games list.
I played as a Disciple of Khaine in the Preview. The combat is not Slow. It is no slower then WoW is at low levels. Compare a level 10 Rogue to a level 10 Disciple of Khaine and their melee combat speed is about equal.
People that are stating that the combat is slow are trying to compare level 70 WoW characters with bonuses (such as Haste) and more skills to low level WAR characters. Of course WAR combat is going to look slower but in reality it is not. There is no noticable difference later on.
I have a level 70 Rogue in WoW (on a currently played account) with a mix of Season 2 & 3 gear for PVP and Tier 4 to 6 gear for PVE. The combat feels just as fluid on WAR as it does on WoW. I feel that the animations on WoW are still more fluid though but the speed of combat is about the same. (One of WoW's biggest strengths are the quality of animation, heck I think they are closer to Pixar in animation quality then the rest of the MMO games out there). I would say that WAR has better animations in my opinion the DAoC had and it seems better to me then AoC does as well.
Is tier 1 combat going to be extremely fast and comparable to level 70 WoW combat of course not, but it is ridiculous to even think it should be.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)