How WAR made me realize what a subtly brilliant game WoW is

invsblmn

WAR is a good game, no doubt about it. It has some great ideas to contribute. But its problem is not that it lacks big ideas. Rather, it falls short in the details and the polish that makes WoW so fun to play (or even to grind).

Yes, I believe the WoW comparison has to be made. WAR is clearly influenced by WoW and is simply begging for that comparison. Now, on to the points:

1) The combat just doesn't "feel" good. I think it's a combination of subpar sound effects and the poor animation not synchronizing well together. Grinding mobs with my warrior priest is half as fun as tearing through mobs with my warrior in WoW. Here's the thing. I'm a big fan or games like Minesweeper and Tetris. They are addictive not because they have groundbreaking graphics or epic ideas but because they are satisfying. There's just that "click" when you clear a line. Just like how combat in WoW simply had that satisfying feel to it - from the charge to the devastate. Everything clicks. It feels like a mini-game in its own way. I actually like grinding motes in WoW. It's therapeutic just like playing Tetris. No joke. 

2) Questing is so easy it's trivial. I don't feel like any of it matters because I can get much better experience doing scenarios anyway. I know you will say that's the point but it really trivializes the feeling of exploration. The WoW quests ARE time-sinks but it is because of that that completing a quest actually feels like an accomplishment. As it stands, the current ultra-fast questing system is fine were it not for 1). Grinding is no fun, either with a Black Orc and especially with my Warrior Priest (my main). 

3) WAR is basically an amusement park, where you are ushered through a set path and wait in line for the rides. Everything is geared toward your satisfaction - the experience, renown points keep rolling in, at every moment upgrades geared specifically for you are shoved in your face, the PQs dole out rewards suitable specifically for your class. The game basically bends over backwards to make sure you, the gamer, is having a good time and feeling rewarded. Frankly, it feels a bit patronizing.

WoW is a time-sink and is also linear, etc. But its brilliance lies in its ability to create the illusion that it is free and open. The difficulty (i.e. raids and the harder 5-mans) and grind and time commitment needed to advance in WoW is not NECESSARILY a bad thing - just like accomplishing things in real life, raiding takes effort (PvP is a different matter). In WAR I can just stand around in scenarios or RvR and half-assedly do some damage and healing and I'd come away with a healthy stream of points. 

I did not regret buying WAR at all. But I probably won't resubscribe and will take WotLK instead. I don't mean to insult WAR - I'm just stating that its design goals and philosophy doesn't really suit my playing style.

To summarize: WAR feels contrived. The gameplay feels like the game world is designed for the gamer and not your character, if that makes any sense. 

In my view of MMORPG history, WAR represents another step taken on the road away from UO and EQ (when MMOs were a fringe hobby). Now it's all about instant gratification, FPS style. I'm interested in MMOs for the stories - both the ones written in-game and the ones you make for yourself. Of course, many of us are looking for a game that returns to the roots of the genre - a sandbox, no hand-holding game that takes commitment and effort to learn. A game that has an element of risk and you might actually get screwed over by other players or if you get unlucky.

WoW took that first step on the road, of course, but it disguised it so well that the game felt perfect. Speaking of which, I really should go get my warrior alt to 70 in time for WotLK. 

This is not a flame nor is it a review. Just some thoughts. But feel free to disagree and get angry like some in this community likes to do.

 

---

 

ADDED:

To elaborate: I think the Tome of Knowledge is brilliant. The idea of tracking quests, lore, exploration is fantastic. The ToK would fit a game like WoW perfectly. But in WAR, when there are so many mindless 3-minute quests the greatness of the ToK idea doesn't fit with the forgettable nature of the quests themselves. The ToK feels less like a record of what I've done as it  does a record of what I don't know I did but might read up on afterwards if I'm bored. You know what I mean?

I would say that WAR contributed a few genuine innovations to the genre:

Public quests - though the 3-step pattern in WAR is far too predictable, but the concept can be expanded on in future games

Tome of Knowledge - a logical next step for MMOs that I'm sure Blizzard will catch onto (in WotLK)

Permanent RvR-style war-effort effects on your capital city - of course this is actually due to DAoC

Collision detection - minor but of great tactical significance

DuraheLL

ok now we know you think that. what now?

Sovrath

Originally posted by invsblmn


WAR is a good game, no doubt about it. It has some great ideas to contribute. But its problem is not that it lacks big ideas. Rather, it falls short in the details and the polish that makes WoW so fun to play (or even to grind).
Yes, I believe the WoW comparison has to be made. WAR is clearly influenced by WoW and is simply begging for that comparison. Now, on to the points:
1) The combat just doesn't "feel" good. I think it's a combination of subpar sound effects and the poor animation not synchronizing well together. Grinding mobs with my warrior priest is half as fun as tearing through mobs with my warrior in WoW. Here's the thing. I'm a big fan or games like Minesweeper and Tetris. They are addictive not because they have groundbreaking graphics or epic ideas but because they are satisfying. There's just that "click" when you clear a line. Just like how combat in WoW simply had that satisfying feel to it - from the charge to the devastate. Everything clicks. It feels like a mini-game in its own way. I actually like grinding motes in WoW. It's therapeutic just like playing Tetris. No joke. 
2) Questing is so easy it's trivial. I don't feel like any of it matters because I can get much better experience RvRing anyway. I know you will say that's the point but it really trivializes the feeling of exploration. The WoW quests ARE time-sinks but it is because of that that completing a quest actually feels like an accomplishment. As it stands, the current ultra-fast questing system is fine were it not for 1). Grinding is no fun, either with a Black Orc and especially with my Warrior Priest (my main). 
3) WAR is basically an amusement park, where you are ushered through a set path and wait in line for the rides. Everything is geared toward your satisfaction - the experience, renown points keep rolling in, at every moment upgrades geared specifically for you are shoved in your face, the PQs dole out rewards suitable specifically for your class. The game basically bends over backwards to make sure you, the gamer, is having a good time and feeling rewarded. Frankly, it feels a bit patronizing.
WoW is a time-sink and is also linear, etc. But its brilliance lies in its ability to create the illusion that it is free and open. The difficulty (i.e. raids and the harder 5-mans) and grind and time commitment needed to advance in WoW is not NECESSARILY a bad thing - just like accomplishing things in real life, raiding takes effort (PvP is a different matter). In WAR I can just stand around in scenarios or RvR and half-assedly do some damage and healing and I'd come away with a healthy stream of points. 
I did not regret buying WAR at all. But I probably won't resubscribe and will take WotLK instead. I don't mean to insult WAR - I'm just stating that its design goals and philosophy doesn't really suit my playing style.
To summarize: WAR feels contrived. The gameplay feels like the game world is designed for the gamer and not your character, if that makes any sense. 
In my view of MMORPG history, WAR represents another step taken on the road away from UO and EQ (when MMOs were a fringe hobby). Now it's all about instant gratification, FPS style. I'm interested in MMOs for the stories - both the ones written in-game and the ones you make for yourself. Of course, many of us are looking for a game that returns to the roots of the genre - a sandbox, no hand-holding game that takes commitment and effort to learn. A game that has an element of risk and you might actually get screwed over by other players or if you get unlucky.
WoW took that first step on the road, of course, but it disguised it so well that the game felt perfect. Speaking of which, I really should go get my warrior alt to 70 in time for WotLK. 
This is not a flame nor is it a review. Just some thoughts. But feel free to disagree and get angry like some in this community likes to do.

 

I think their are a lot of very good points here and some very accurate (and some I disagree with). War IS another step away from UO nad EQ and I think you are right, the gameplay is more about a game and less about living in an immersive world.

However, I know for me that is fine as I  am always having fun in it. I would say that WoW is still more like  a world but more Amusment Park like and War is in some cases much more amusement park like.

so if you want a fun game, play Warhammer. If you want to have more of a world where you feel you are in a world then Warhammer might not fit the bill. I do like that there is a lot of action going on all the time and I enjoy quite a few things about Warhammer. But I think it's for people who enjoy RvR and especially pvp scenarios. I enjoy the PvE but it's nothing really special. Still, I am having a great time so money well spent.

Wolfenpride

You make some pretty good points

will have to agree with you on the subject

dwillpower

I agree with you too. WAR is fun just not very MMOish type fun

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

EliteMarine

I get your point but there is no point to make some review of how your gonna go play wow again. Let us enjoy warhammer online and you go play the same old grind game thats been around for 3 years. I am a ex wow player and this game may be a little buggy but this stuff will get fixed. WOW is making another ex pac making all the tier 6 and brutal glad gear useless again so you can grind and do it all over again and again and the cycle will continue until the game finnaly dies off prolly in another 3 years or so.

i_own_u

So designing a game for the gamer and not the character is a bad thing?

I have played WoW for a long time, and to be honest, I just recently (last half a year) made an account just so I can be a deathknight. I believe that is about to change. WAR give me the feeling that I am a leader of an army and I need X strageties to win. I have to think when I play WAR, so it's kind of like a giant game of Risk (if you know what board game that is.) I love the feeling that at any moment an order (or destruction) player will pop out of nowhere and attack me without warning.

So I respect your opinion, but I do not like games that require excessive grinding. No matter how polished it is.

Cetra

After playing WAR, i'm starting to appreciate the good stuffs WOW has brought to us despite some of it shortcomings.

If WOW is for the casual, then WAR is for the SUPER CASUAL. Everything in WAR has been dumbed down, lay right in front of you in a linear way.

If WOW is a No Skill game, then WAR is a "Game for Dummies".

I don't play WOW now and i'm not thinking of carrying on with WAR either.

i_own_u

Originally posted by Cetra
I don't play WOW now and i'm not thinking of carrying on with WAR either.

 

So you judge the games like you have been playing them for years...Interesting.

mrnutz1065

Although I actually agree with some of those points I found it actually went the other way for me. I guess warhammer just caters to my personal tastes better.

It's refreshing to read a thread like this, as opposed to "warhammer is awful, WoW roxx lolol"

invsblmn

To elaborate: I think the Tome of Knowledge is brilliant. The idea of tracking quests, lore, exploration is fantastic. The ToK would fit a game like WoW perfectly. But in WAR, when there are so many mindless 3-minute quests the greatness of the ToK idea doesn't fit with the forgettable nature of the quests themselves. The ToK feels less like a record of what I've done as it is a record of what I don't know I did but might read up on afterwards if I'm bored. You know what I mean?

I would say that WAR contributed a few genuine innovations to the genre:

Public quests - though the 3-step pattern in WAR is far too predictable, but the concept can be expanded on in future games

Tome of Knowledge - a logical next step for MMOs that I'm sure Blizzard will catch onto (in WotLK)

Permanent RvR-style war-effort effects on your capital city - of course this is actually due to DAoC

Collision detection - minor but of great tactical significance

EliteMarine

Originally posted by Cetra


After playing WAR, i'm starting to appreciate the good stuffs WOW has brought to us despite some of it shortcomings.
If WOW is for the casual, then WAR is for the SUPER CASUAL. Everything in WAR has been dumbed down, lay right in front of you in a linear way.
If WOW is a No Skill game, then WAR is a "Game for Dummies".
I don't play WOW now and i'm not thinking of carrying on with WAR either.

 

You make no valid arguments with this statement in wow whoever has better gear wins the fight or the class that is op at the time "aka rogues or druids as of now". WOW is just the same old thing we have done over and over again yes the orginal wow was fun but burning crusade has ruined the game with just giving away free epics with pvp and every boss getting downgraded to make it easy to fight them. the same will be there with wotlk welfare epics and people with no skill waiting for blizzard buffs to become op.

invsblmn

Originally posted by EliteMarine


I get your point but there is no point to make some review of how your gonna go play wow again. Let us enjoy warhammer online and you go play the same old grind game thats been around for 3 years. I am a ex wow player and this game may be a little buggy but this stuff will get fixed. WOW is making another ex pac making all the tier 6 and brutal glad gear useless again so you can grind and do it all over again and again and the cycle will continue until the game finnaly dies off prolly in another 3 years or so.

 

Agreed. The problem with WoW xpacs is that they make all the previous raid content outdated. This truly blows. When WotLK is coming out in a few weeks I would be a fool to keep raiding when I should be reading books or picking up girls.

But there's Darkfall, which if it actually exists and is as good as advertised will be better than books or girls.

arctarus

I agree with the detail part, that the Dev in War needs to look into.

Combat, i still didnt see any block or parry. World: lack of snakes, so far only saw 1 rabbit, 1 bird,  and how come it dosen't rain? ( although it wouls add to the woes of my fps and stuttering problem...)

 

Interface, right click on a players name i can only lock, dont have add to frens, whisper, add to group etc....

 

 

EliteMarine

Originally posted by invsblmn

Originally posted by EliteMarine


I get your point but there is no point to make some review of how your gonna go play wow again. Let us enjoy warhammer online and you go play the same old grind game thats been around for 3 years. I am a ex wow player and this game may be a little buggy but this stuff will get fixed. WOW is making another ex pac making all the tier 6 and brutal glad gear useless again so you can grind and do it all over again and again and the cycle will continue until the game finnaly dies off prolly in another 3 years or so.

 

Agreed. The problem with WoW xpacs is that they make all the previous raid content outdated. This truly blows. When WotLK is coming out in a few weeks I would be a fool to keep raiding when I should be reading books or picking up girls.

But there's Darkfall, which if it actually exists and is as good as advertised will be better than books or girls.

Well at least you see it another way trust me sometimes i get the urge to play wow but then i think of all the time i spent into raiding bt countless hours to be erased in 1 month which pisses me off. They need to fix the system they have in place and make the old dungeons playable at max level and still have gear to grind for.

invsblmn

 I think original WoW, before xpacs and welfare epics, was pretty damn close to perfect as the MMO genre has been. None of the stupid camping of EQ but definitely required real time and commitment.

WoW could be saved if welfare epics are fixed and, like Marine said, older dungeons could be played in heroic mode for max levels. This would fit the new accomplishment system in WotLK perfectly.

Kyleran

Originally posted by EliteMarine


WOW is making another ex pac making all the tier 6 and brutal glad gear useless again so you can grind and do it all over again and again and the cycle will continue until the game finnaly dies off prolly in another 3 years or so.

 

ER, when WAR is ready for an xpac, do you really think it won't contain new items that basically make all of your old gear obsolete? If so, then you never played DAOC.

The treadmill will be in every game, WAR will not escape it.

 

EliteMarine

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by EliteMarine


WOW is making another ex pac making all the tier 6 and brutal glad gear useless again so you can grind and do it all over again and again and the cycle will continue until the game finnaly dies off prolly in another 3 years or so.

 

ER, when WAR is ready for an xpac, do you really think it won't contain new items that basically make all of your old gear obsolete? If so, then you never played DAOC.

The treadmill will be in every game, WAR will not escape it.

 

 

At least in the original WOW gear wasnt just handed out and you actually had to grind for ranks and no i havent played DAOC but dont knock something until it happens

neonwire

I agree with your description of WAR as it does indeed seem to throw endless rewards in the players direction without any real effort being required to obtain them. It is very clearly an amusement park and isnt really intended to be a world you can explore as such.

Despite all of that though I dont think WoW is any better at all. WoW is also an amusement park but its just a bit more open. It certainly never created the illusion of a world for me.......I always felt that I was running through a grindy themepark. In fact WAR does a MUCH better job of creating the illusion of a world. There is so much activity going on that the world really feels alive. WoW doesnt even come close in this respect. The good thing about WAR is that it doesnt try to be a world and because of this I think it is better than WoW, which tries to be something which it clearly isnt.

The combat in WAR feels fine to me. Its basicly the same as WoW so I cant really see how you can think WoW is more satisfying. You're still just spamming the same buttons in a theraputic rythm so whats the difference? I also thought the animations in WAR are nicer to look at. Add to that the fact that WAR's graphics and character models are very clearly miles ahead of WOW's which are now looking rather dated. Some of those landscapes actually look quite spectacular. The giant stomping around in the greenskin beginning area is just great!

The difficulty or challenge you refer to in WoW is also just an illusion.......unless you count  large amounts of tedium and mind numbing boredom as a challenge which I suppose it is in a way. Its just not the kind of challenge I am particularly interested in paying money for. I would rather have fun personally. I dont know whether WAR will hold my attention for many months but I do at least get the feeling that my efforts mean something in the game which is a feeling I certainly never got from playing WoW. To be honest though these themepark games dont usually hold my attention for anything more than a couple of months anyway. However WAR has focused more on PvP which I think is the point of these types of games anyway.

I would not compare the effort of accomplishing something in WAR with anything that can be achieved in real life. Sorry but achieving things in real life requires a lot more effort and is far more rewarding than spending huge amounts of time grinding things in WoW. I find that comparison rather silly actually.

Otherwise though your post was a pretty good one.

Meeshak

While i see the points made in the original post i'd like to just say one thing.  As a community we must not judge one game by putting it against another.  PC Gamer doesn't rate games by comparison and we shouldn't either.  If we remember wow didn't revolutionize everything just somethings and took the old stuff and made it better.  What makes wow a great game is the fact they listen to their subscribers and strive to give the people what they want.  Welfare epics were mentioned earlier in this tread and i agree to a point.  I like the fact you have pve and pvp items seperate.  However when some pieces are better for raiding than actual raiding pieces is where i have a problem.  Wow has had to 4 years and this community forgets how buggy its launch was and imo war has had a 10 times better launch.  The thing with wow is the original players are older now and working and the current group is mostly younger players or new mmo gamers.  Over time like me they will get bored and leave for something else.   I can't raid 40 hours a week anymore which is why i don't play wow anymore.  War for me gives me a chance to play casually and enjoy the game while still making a difference.  However for our community to grow we should start rating these games with constructive comments so developers will listen and and hopefully release a game that is truley revolutionary.  Cause i tell you this if the mmo market can't put a dent in wow then i see no other quality mmo coming out for a long time.  Its about time this community as a whole gives each mmo respect for trying to give us a variety instead of bashing every game other than his or her favorite.  Cause for me i like choices.

EliteMarine

Originally posted by Meeshak


While i see the points made in the original post i'd like to just say one thing.  As a community we must not judge one game by putting it against another.  PC Gamer doesn't rate games by comparison and we shouldn't either.  If we remember wow didn't revolutionize everything just somethings and took the old stuff and made it better.  What makes wow a great game is the fact they listen to their subscribers and strive to give the people what they want.  Welfare epics were mentioned earlier in this tread and i agree to a point.  I like the fact you have pve and pvp items seperate.  However when some pieces are better for raiding than actual raiding pieces is where i have a problem.  Wow has had to 4 years and this community forgets how buggy its launch was and imo war has had a 10 times better launch.  The thing with wow is the original players are older now and working and the current group is mostly younger players or new mmo gamers.  Over time like me they will get bored and leave for something else.   I can't raid 40 hours a week anymore which is why i don't play wow anymore.  War for me gives me a chance to play casually and enjoy the game while still making a difference.  However for our community to grow we should start rating these games with constructive comments so developers will listen and and hopefully release a game that is truley revolutionary.  Cause i tell you this if the mmo market can't put a dent in wow then i see no other quality mmo coming out for a long time.  Its about time this community as a whole gives each mmo respect for trying to give us a variety instead of bashing every game other than his or her favorite.  Cause for me i like choices.

 

Good points, can i just say one thing next time make your big wall of text into paragraphs at least but very well written post

Meeshak

lol sorry i'm at work and avoiding the boss making rounds lol will do lol.  btw i posted my first ever post tonight called old mmo player new mmo.  check it out hopefully we can start to get some constructive post on these forums to help us gamers get quality deveolpment.

invsblmn

Originally posted by neonwire


I agree with your description of WAR as it does indeed seem to throw endless rewards in the players direction without any real effort being required to obtain them. It is very clearly an amusement park and isnt really intended to be a world you can explore as such.
Despite all of that though I dont think WoW is any better at all. WoW is also an amusement park but its just a bit more open. It certainly never created the illusion of a world for me.......I always felt that I was running through a grindy themepark. In fact WAR does a MUCH better job of creating the illusion of a world. There is so much activity going on that the world really feels alive. WoW doesnt even come close in this respect. The good thing about WAR is that it doesnt try to be a world and because of this I think it is better than WoW, which tries to be something which it clearly isnt.
The combat in WAR feels fine to me. Its basicly the same as WoW so I cant really see how you can think WoW is more satisfying. You're still just spamming the same buttons in a theraputic rythm so whats the difference? I also thought the animations in WAR are nicer to look at. Add to that the fact that WAR's graphics and character models are very clearly miles ahead of WOW's which are now looking rather dated. Some of those landscapes actually look quite spectacular. The giant stomping around in the greenskin beginning area is just great!
The difficulty or challenge you refer to in WoW is also just an illusion.......unless you count  large amounts of tedium and mind numbing boredom as a challenge which I suppose it is in a way. Its just not the kind of challenge I am particularly interested in paying money for. I would rather have fun personally. I dont know whether WAR will hold my attention for many months but I do at least get the feeling that my efforts mean something in the game which is a feeling I certainly never got from playing WoW. To be honest though these themepark games dont usually hold my attention for anything more than a couple of months anyway. However WAR has focused more on PvP which I think is the point of these types of games anyway.
I would not compare the effort of accomplishing something in WAR with anything that can be achieved in real life. Sorry but achieving things in real life requires a lot more effort and is far more rewarding than spending huge amounts of time grinding things in WoW. I find that comparison rather silly actually.
Otherwise though your post was a pretty good one.

 

Yep. Excellent points. 

I think it's worth asking this question: how many MMO gamers are just pathologically addicted to video games? The MMORPG genre has possibly more addicts than any other genre. They are looking for a substitute for real life and that's never going to happen. It's all an illusion. The perfect sandbox, Conan-style mounted combat, 1000v1000 epic siege, level-less, no-grind MMO will never be made.

Kaioh

 I feel the exact opposite.  I'm not a player that likes to pve and run dungeons nonstop, so Warhammer Online is super fun for me.  

Meeshak

Personally i like ot do both but i never liked wow pvp. For some reason i just couldn't do it unless it was a premade and with guildies.  However in war i feel the opposite.  I find myself doing alot of scenarios lol its so much fun adn then i do some quest then scenarios again and so and so forth.  As of now i'm glad to have the noob feeling again not knowing anyone and not knowing where my character is going to end up.