Oh yes, I did look at that site. It wasn't anything special that I had to mention that I did look at it. I have some crazy ass parents on that stuff. I hear it from them non-stop. I know more about the bullshit than you think. I can't even hold a political conversation with them because it instantly becomes a jesus will save us conversation on the phone for 3 hours. I stopped calling. It insults my intelligence and wastes my time. Your site isn't going to make me a "believer". You dress like a Jedi in your blog, I can't take that seriously either. How old are you again? Like I said in one of these posts.......straightjacket crazy.
You know more about the billsh*t, but not about the real thing. No site is going to make anyone a believer. I showed you a site that refutes all the nonsense YOu were throwing; because they are old, weak arguments against God.
Remember, you have no idea what I believe, you only think you do. Obviously your parents and I do not believe in the same things at all. I feel terrible about how you were raised and on behalf of the Lord, I'm sorry.
I dress like a Jedi because it is funny; I don't take myself very seriously at all -- I am 46 years old and will always be young at heart.
I talk to God regularly but I don't "hear" him talk back. Sometimes I think I am straightjacket crazy but it all seems to work out in the end.
Try not to have preconceived notions about what I am and what I believe. I believe what I believe after believing what you seem to believe for most of my life. I didn't come to believe what I believe until after many years of study of many disciplines. I know all people have different paths but if you are curious and willing to face the challenge, I'm there for you.
One word on this though. It is mot my "mission" to convert anyone. My "mission" involves setting believers free more than leading people to Him. I find that others are much better at that than me. What I am good at is freeing people who DO believe who are held captive to legalistic doctrines that stifle them. More often than it it's people who believe but had people like your parents crush the Spirit within them.
If you take a few minutes and read my little Sunday messages on my blog you'll see I have a very different angle than your average "Joe Christian."
Honestly though this isn't really the proper place for this. I don't want to be a pain in the ass believer and only want to share what I know and believe with people who want to know more; thus it doesn't really belong here on a public gamer forum. To every thing there is a season and all that....
lol How do you not feel uncomfortable with yourself coming up with these rationalizations?
You don't feel uncomfortable with yourself in showing your ignorance of this Bible you are arguing against?
Honestly, if you REALLY want to learn -- and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt -- I have a nice website where everything you are talking about and more, is answered on a regular basis. If you have the courage to have your own views challenged, please check this site out:
I was an agnostic/athiest from about the age of 13 to the age of 36. I have read every book by every modern athiest (Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and more), and many books by and about all of earth's religions. I continue to challenge myself. Do you?
To answer, no, I don't.
Right now I'm doing some Biology homework. I figured Chemistry was good for my first college degree. I thought maybe I should study something new for this second college degree I'm getting right now.
I can physically SEE how the world works. All of my questions are answered. I don't have to "make it up" when I don't know an answer, I can do research and testing. negatives and positives hundreds on times in independant, dependant, and controlled variables.
If you believe in dieties to give you a warm fuzzy, then fine. I'm don't really care. Yes, I know it's pointless to point out how silly religion is to people. but don't hold back the rest of us that want to find more facts about the past and future.
Not brave enough to boldly face the challenge, eh? If all of your questions are answered, you'll never be much of a scientist. I believe in God because there is a preponderance of evidence that He exists, as many scientists before you have believed, and after you will believe. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about it -- just cold naked truth, combined by the ultimate power and love in the universe.
I wouldn't dream of holding you back -- your small worldview is what is doing that.
What evidence?
BTW, I'm not a Bio or Chem major I should have gone down those routes, but I have not. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly.
It took reading dozens of books and learning from people, and not being afraid to face all the facts. If you are ever brave enough to get started, I have a small reading list to get you going. It might be harder than any course you've ever taken, since it will challenge everything you believe, and since you are a hard case as I was, It's gonna take years; lots of study, and quite a few experiments.
Many people believe easily, but with people like you and me it's not like that. We need to be convinced. That takes WORK.
Let me know if and when you have the courage to continue.
So in other words you don't know and are full of shit. I see. I already knew this though.
When I ask for evidence, I expect physical proof tested against all variables that theory is fact, until then, your "books" are excuses for what the authors of the bible forgot to put in. Nothing more.
Toodles.
Then you believe nothing in history? very little of what we call history involved physical proof (although there IS archaology, which is good stuff); nothing in history can be tested and repeated. There are other kinds of knowledge than scientific knowledge, isn't there?
Any time you feel like taking up the challenge, let me know. If there's enough evidence to convince me, there's more than enough to convince you.
So in other words you don't know and are full of shit. I see. I already knew this though.
When I ask for evidence, I expect physical proof tested against all variables that theory is fact, until then, your "books" are excuses for what the authors of the bible forgot to put in. Nothing more. Toodles.
hey dude.
i enjoyed your answer to what came before the big bang.
your best guess was 'space'
i thought the big bang created space and time and matter and everything?
silly rockstar.
i should really be a pyscho...pyschoanal.... a head doctor or, i enjoy judging people, not judging them- just classifying them. perhaps not classifying them...you know, ....reading them. uh huh.
i read you loud and clear. i see the messages you convey.
i actually read this whole thread.
ive been banned for a few days...so, not having the option to hit the 'reply' or, 'hey everyone, look at me, im on the internet and my words matter most' button, i have a better understanding.
fisher, i do believe you are right.
knowledge is key to understanding.
and to close:
"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
(With the) burden of proof tossed upon the believers."
Don't read too much in to it, to try and analyze the finer points is to miss the point of the myth, it is a story about obedience to authority and the dangers of too much curiosity and having a free spirit. If you start getting into analysis you will run into all kinds of problems, sure a world wide flood does not make sense and sure it does not make sense to make a guy build a boat to house two of every animal, but that really isn't what the story is about, it is about destruction and redemption and so forth. To take these myths and consider the practical problems and logical inconsistancies asking why nots and what ifs is to miss the point of the story, so don't get hung up on burning bushes, parted seas, plagues, people living in whales, wrestling matches and giants, take them for what they are, stories.
Just look at other mythology, how does the giant serpant or the world tree make sense in norse mythology?, it doesn't in a practical sense but in a symbolic way is does. That is the way mythology and creation stories work.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I am starting to see now that this really isn't about your science and god issue.
This is about you having to face some truths that you know in your heart to be true, but don't want to let go of the part that you think is part of your being. I promise you that it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be in your mind.
At first I thought you were just being really arrogant and mean for the sake of it, or to harrass. But this goes much deeper and is personal for you.
Whoever did the abuse and manipulating on you was wrong to the Nth degree. And THEY obviously wanted to impose their idea of how they believed someone should live on you forcefully.
We all know that manipulation always brings up rebellion. It's like a law of physics, gravity even. They were wrong. period.
There is a difference between Law (like the exodus part of the bible) and grace. Both are in scripture and are very clearly reconciled..... but... Not by being good enough, acting a certain way, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way... all that IS TRUELY BULLCRAP....we both agree on that point.
There is also a huge difference between Religion and Faith, one is a pathetic attemp by mere men to make you conform to their way of living. (usually in a way that gives them more power over you) and the other frees your mind to explore and develope on your own.
I was trying to get you to the big bang theory to argue that even dawkins admitted there is possibly an intelligent design behind it, (though he tried to use aliens instead of God as the source..lol) Ok so maybe you don't want to play that game... that's cool.
All the knowledge in this world can't help a person who's been wronged feel better can it? you have been wronged, it's clear to several of us. No, this isn't some form of pity either, so just stop.
It's just honest sincere concern.
Clearly you are intelligent and sharp in your thinking. Do you think that there are no smart people who also believe in God? The two are not mutually exclusive. Though you've conditioned yourself to think that they are.
To quote a TV show from the 90's when a person said they didn't believe in God, the reply was "That's ok, God believes in you."
lol How do you not feel uncomfortable with yourself coming up with these rationalizations?
You don't feel uncomfortable with yourself in showing your ignorance of this Bible you are arguing against?
Honestly, if you REALLY want to learn -- and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt -- I have a nice website where everything you are talking about and more, is answered on a regular basis. If you have the courage to have your own views challenged, please check this site out:
I was an agnostic/athiest from about the age of 13 to the age of 36. I have read every book by every modern athiest (Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and more), and many books by and about all of earth's religions. I continue to challenge myself. Do you?
To answer, no, I don't.
Right now I'm doing some Biology homework. I figured Chemistry was good for my first college degree. I thought maybe I should study something new for this second college degree I'm getting right now.
I can physically SEE how the world works. All of my questions are answered. I don't have to "make it up" when I don't know an answer, I can do research and testing. negatives and positives hundreds on times in independant, dependant, and controlled variables.
If you believe in dieties to give you a warm fuzzy, then fine. I'm don't really care. Yes, I know it's pointless to point out how silly religion is to people. but don't hold back the rest of us that want to find more facts about the past and future.
Not brave enough to boldly face the challenge, eh? If all of your questions are answered, you'll never be much of a scientist. I believe in God because there is a preponderance of evidence that He exists, as many scientists before you have believed, and after you will believe. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about it -- just cold naked truth, combined by the ultimate power and love in the universe.
I wouldn't dream of holding you back -- your small worldview is what is doing that.
What evidence?
BTW, I'm not a Bio or Chem major I should have gone down those routes, but I have not. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly.
It took reading dozens of books and learning from people, and not being afraid to face all the facts. If you are ever brave enough to get started, I have a small reading list to get you going. It might be harder than any course you've ever taken, since it will challenge everything you believe, and since you are a hard case as I was, It's gonna take years; lots of study, and quite a few experiments.
Many people believe easily, but with people like you and me it's not like that. We need to be convinced. That takes WORK.
Let me know if and when you have the courage to continue.
So in other words you don't know and are full of shit. I see. I already knew this though.
When I ask for evidence, I expect physical proof tested against all variables that theory is fact, until then, your "books" are excuses for what the authors of the bible forgot to put in. Nothing more.
Toodles.
Then you believe nothing in history? very little of what we call history involved physical proof (although there IS archaology, which is good stuff); nothing in history can be tested and repeated. There are other kinds of knowledge than scientific knowledge, isn't there?
Any time you feel like taking up the challenge, let me know. If there's enough evidence to convince me, there's more than enough to convince you.
Yet... Just thought I would spice up this useless thread alittle more. Guess I could have been alittle more productive and posted something like pale blue dot.
No, human's may never reach the point of being able to do what I implied. But science is suggesting it is plaussable on some lvl to manipulate. Atom's or was it protons or some shit. I forget atm. A single one has been observed in 2 different places at the same time. I don't fully understand the stuff not gonna say I do.
Peaceandlove, I am starting to see now that this really isn't about your science and god issue. This is about you having to face some truths that you know in your heart to be true, but don't want to let go of the part that you think is part of your being. I promise you that it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be in your mind. At first I thought you were just being really arrogant and mean for the sake of it, or to harrass. But this goes much deeper and is personal for you. Whoever did the abuse and manipulating on you was wrong to the Nth degree. And THEY obviously wanted to impose their idea of how they believed someone should live on you forcefully. We all know that manipulation always brings up rebellion. It's like a law of physics, gravity even. They were wrong. period. There is a difference between Law (like the exodus part of the bible) and grace. Both are in scripture and are very clearly reconciled..... but... Not by being good enough, acting a certain way, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way... all that IS TRUELY BULLCRAP....we both agree on that point. There is also a huge difference between Religion and Faith, one is a pathetic attemp by mere men to make you conform to their way of living. (usually in a way that gives them more power over you) and the other frees your mind to explore and develope on your own. I was trying to get you to the big bang theory to argue that even dawkins admitted there is possibly an intelligent design behind it, (though he tried to use aliens instead of God as the source..lol) Ok so maybe you don't want to play that game... that's cool. All the knowledge in this world can't help a person who's been wronged feel better can it? you have been wronged, it's clear to several of us. No, this isn't some form of pity either, so just stop. It's just honest sincere concern. Clearly you are intelligent and sharp in your thinking. Do you think that there are no smart people who also believe in God? The two are not mutually exclusive. Though you've conditioned yourself to think that they are. To quote a TV show from the 90's when a person said they didn't believe in God, the reply was "That's ok, God believes in you." Just felt like saying all that, not sure why.
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
There is no reason to rule out either one; but there is substantially more reason to believe in God than aliens. Of course that depends on what you mean by "aliens." One could mean extradimensional lifeforms as well as lifeforms from other worlds. All that is speculative.
As far as dawkins is concerned -- as a logical analyst...he makes a great biologist. In other words, he has stepped out of his field and his ignorance shows. This often happens with scientist and other experts. When we leap from one field where we are quite knowledgeable, we refuse to take the time to learn a whole new discipline and find we are ignorant of some very basic things.
he argues, as I made the point with you, against medieval theology and apologetics. he argues against fundamentalism -- something most Christians do not believe in. He argues against a Bible as if it were a magic book handed by God, as opposed to a library of writings of difefrent people encountering Him in different ways.
Dawkins oversimplifies the subject, creates a straw man, and attacks it. Just plain weak. Almost as bad as the angry one, Sam Harris.
Also, when you read the writings of these athiests, do you get the feeling they are HAPPY? I don't. Why do you suppose that is? I'm not advocating a soft and fuzzy happiness, but something deep and meaningful that doesn't need to insult and attack people and their ideas to feel confident.
Just a question: How many experiments have you conducted with Diety? How often have you tested Him? have you set your own parameters of what it would take to convince you, then set out to find the evidence according to those parameters? Or have you set the bar impossibly high, so that a Diety who loved you would never do what it would take for you to believe, like remove all freedom from you?
At any rate, I get the feeling that you are not up to the challenge...
Let me give you another one. How about learning enough about all this to be able to teach your parents that they are wrong according to the Jesus they supposedly follow? To learn more about what they claim to know and teach them that they just MIGHT have a good deal of their beliefs wrong, and how that may have harmed your relationship with them?
Again none of this belongs on this forum so if you ARE willing to take some chances and want to go beyond your safe place, let me know.
It's often believed by those with a background in faith that the universe is far too complex to have just happened to evolved into what it is today. That a powerful, onipitent being such as a 'God' would be required to create it.
If that indeed is the case, this 'God' would have to be far more complex than the universe it created. Right? It surely couldn't have just always existed, if something such as matter, which is far less complex than said 'God', needed to be created.
So where did this 'God' come from? How did it come to be?
Peaceandlove, I am starting to see now that this really isn't about your science and god issue. This is about you having to face some truths that you know in your heart to be true, but don't want to let go of the part that you think is part of your being. I promise you that it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be in your mind. At first I thought you were just being really arrogant and mean for the sake of it, or to harrass. But this goes much deeper and is personal for you. Whoever did the abuse and manipulating on you was wrong to the Nth degree. And THEY obviously wanted to impose their idea of how they believed someone should live on you forcefully. We all know that manipulation always brings up rebellion. It's like a law of physics, gravity even. They were wrong. period. There is a difference between Law (like the exodus part of the bible) and grace. Both are in scripture and are very clearly reconciled..... but... Not by being good enough, acting a certain way, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way... all that IS TRUELY BULLCRAP....we both agree on that point. There is also a huge difference between Religion and Faith, one is a pathetic attemp by mere men to make you conform to their way of living. (usually in a way that gives them more power over you) and the other frees your mind to explore and develope on your own. I was trying to get you to the big bang theory to argue that even dawkins admitted there is possibly an intelligent design behind it, (though he tried to use aliens instead of God as the source..lol) Ok so maybe you don't want to play that game... that's cool. All the knowledge in this world can't help a person who's been wronged feel better can it? you have been wronged, it's clear to several of us. No, this isn't some form of pity either, so just stop. It's just honest sincere concern. Clearly you are intelligent and sharp in your thinking. Do you think that there are no smart people who also believe in God? The two are not mutually exclusive. Though you've conditioned yourself to think that they are. To quote a TV show from the 90's when a person said they didn't believe in God, the reply was "That's ok, God believes in you." Just felt like saying all that, not sure why.
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
so dont you see?
since science is theory re: the universe and, theory will not be proven in our lifetimes + God cannot be proven * fishers point in acceptance of billion year old science theories=stalemate
but,
you are practicing a form of bigotry, to imply your disdain for religions-noticeably bible religions is unacceptable in todays tolerant societies. do we not have the freedom to co-exist in peace? it is true that human life has been a struggle up til today-men have been animals in the name of God but today we get along peacefully or much better,at least in some religions- thanks to our evolution. religions are more tolerant and its message is peace, it is you that has become less tolerant.
i blame your politics. there divisiveness, hypocricy.
I have a question. It's often believed by those with a background in faith that the universe is far too complex to have just happened to evolved into what it is today. That a powerful, onipitent being such as a 'God' would be required to create it. If that indeed is the case, this 'God' would have to be far more complex than the universe it created. Right? It surely couldn't have just always existed, if something such as matter, which is far less complex than said 'God', needed to be created. So where did this 'God' come from? How did it come to be?
Yeah that's why the "watchmaker" analogy isn't the best apologetic, and has been largely discounted for some time (no pun intended). There is no reason to assume that something complex needs something more complex to create it. man is a machine -- a fixed state machine, and we are quite likely to someday create something more complex than ourselves, so the other side isn't necessarily true. Also, in another sense, we create something more complex than ourselves every day -- the economy and society we take part in.
A better question (and it's not completely conclusive) is how do we get from purposelessness (non-life) to purposefulness (life)?
Or how did the Laws of the Universe come into being? These aren't exactly the 'god of the gaps' idea; the problem goes a bit deeper. These are not questions that it is likely our scientific understanding will answer.
Also, assuming the universe has no meaning, why do WE have meaning? why do we seek and strive for meaning? As always these aren't the be all and end all -- but they are better questions to ponder than the watchmaker issue. These are barely the beginning of such ponderings, but they are hardly proof of anything or evidence if anything either way -- just cool questions to think on.
I have a question. It's often believed by those with a background in faith that the universe is far too complex to have just happened to evolved into what it is today. That a powerful, onipitent being such as a 'God' would be required to create it. If that indeed is the case, this 'God' would have to be far more complex than the universe it created. Right? It surely couldn't have just always existed, if something such as matter, which is far less complex than said 'God', needed to be created. So where did this 'God' come from? How did it come to be?
Good luck getting an answer. I'm still waiting on the arc questions.
Prepare to be related to. Followed by challenges and quotes that have nothing to do with the questions you ask.
By the question you asked, I'm sure their responses will be typical self-rationalizations.
Oh, and what self-rationalization have I given? Please instruct me and show me where I am wrong?
And what questions are you waiting on? I'll answer anything I can for you. If I can't, I'll tell you that as well.
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view?
That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization?
Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory.
If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand.
There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people.
Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat.
I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
Peaceandlove, I am starting to see now that this really isn't about your science and god issue. This is about you having to face some truths that you know in your heart to be true, but don't want to let go of the part that you think is part of your being. I promise you that it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be in your mind. At first I thought you were just being really arrogant and mean for the sake of it, or to harrass. But this goes much deeper and is personal for you. Whoever did the abuse and manipulating on you was wrong to the Nth degree. And THEY obviously wanted to impose their idea of how they believed someone should live on you forcefully. We all know that manipulation always brings up rebellion. It's like a law of physics, gravity even. They were wrong. period. There is a difference between Law (like the exodus part of the bible) and grace. Both are in scripture and are very clearly reconciled..... but... Not by being good enough, acting a certain way, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way... all that IS TRUELY BULLCRAP....we both agree on that point. There is also a huge difference between Religion and Faith, one is a pathetic attemp by mere men to make you conform to their way of living. (usually in a way that gives them more power over you) and the other frees your mind to explore and develope on your own. I was trying to get you to the big bang theory to argue that even dawkins admitted there is possibly an intelligent design behind it, (though he tried to use aliens instead of God as the source..lol) Ok so maybe you don't want to play that game... that's cool. All the knowledge in this world can't help a person who's been wronged feel better can it? you have been wronged, it's clear to several of us. No, this isn't some form of pity either, so just stop. It's just honest sincere concern. Clearly you are intelligent and sharp in your thinking. Do you think that there are no smart people who also believe in God? The two are not mutually exclusive. Though you've conditioned yourself to think that they are. To quote a TV show from the 90's when a person said they didn't believe in God, the reply was "That's ok, God believes in you." Just felt like saying all that, not sure why.
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
so dont you see?
since science is theory re: the universe and, theory will not be proven in our lifetimes + God cannot be proven * fishers point in acceptance of billion year old science theories=stalemate
but,
you are practicing a form of bigotry, to imply your disdain for religions-noticeably bible religions is unacceptable in todays tolerant societies. do we not have the freedom to co-exist in peace? it is true that human life has been a struggle up til today-men have been animals in the name of God but today we get along peacefully or much better,at least in some religions- thanks to our evolution. religions are more tolerant and its message is peace, it is you that has become less tolerant.
i blame your politics. there divisiveness, hypocricy.
I wouldn't call it "evolution", I would call it cherry picking what works for them and ignore the rest. At the same time boast about how they follow the "word of god" yet do not.
I mean what happened to go to every city and kill every man, woman, and child. Then burn their city to the ground for believing in anything other than god? Or disobediant teenagers shall be stoned to death? Shall I continue? Oh, but thou shall not kill right?
None of these people EVER give the same answers to these questions. Know why? They make it up as they go. The bible doesn't answer everything like they claim and when you call them on their bullshit, they make up some self-rationalizing answer that they feel comfortable with to believe is true. What they forget is the people that they are trying to pawn off these bullshit excuses to are not buying it. The answers usually end up more crazy than the question itself.
This old guy at work for example, one of many religious people at work who, of course, look down at me. Says that the new "sins" by the pope is the word of god and is in the bible. The wackjob that he is, carries one with him at all times. So I said, show me where god talks about birth control pills, since it's a sin now according to the pope for women to use birth control pills. Of course, he says, yeah it is in the bible, but wouldn't show me. Then finally I got him to look for it. He couldn't, then disappeared for 3 hours. But he's an easy one. Well, most are easy, but then again, I'm in the south right now and well, it's true with what they say about these people (another subject).
I'm not cherrypicking, I am using my mind to its fullest. the reason they give different answers to difefrent questions is because they are different people with different theories about the text, and ideas about the text, and different experiences.
I am frankly giving you answers where I think I have them, and not when not. there are plenty of whacky religious people out there, but no more than their are wacky athiests (Kim Jon Il comes to mind).
Not all of the theists in the world are rationalizers. Do you know what a rationalization actually IS? It certainly isn't what I did, which was basically answer you honestly, "I don't know."
Oh, and I don't think it's a sin to use birth control pills, and most Christians don't believe that. That's a catholic thing for the most part. It's not in the Bible.
It is interesting you seem to hate us because we are all the same yet then get annoyed when we are all different. It seems there is no making you happy with us no matter what. Maybe it's you?
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view? That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization? Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory. If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand. There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people. Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat. I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view? That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization? Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory. If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand. There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people. Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat. I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
I know man. I know you believe it's a story. I know you don't believe the world is 4,000 years old. But I run into a lot that do believe in these things. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm not directing so much towards you man. I'm generally speaking. You all are different but at the same time the same, I find it very, well, I don't have a proper word for it.
But all people everywhere are all different and all the same -- it's called being human. Athiests and agnostics are the same and all different as well. Penn and Teller are funny and interesting as Athiests, Sam Harris is butthead -- Christopher Hitchens is a butthead too -- but is very smart and witty and a good writer. He's also drunk
Kim Jong Il is a monster in pajamas.
Humans are like that -- we each interpret the data we are given in different ways.
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view? That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization? Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory. If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand. There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people. Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat. I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
Ahem i hope i am not intruding into the debate, after watching the banter betwixt you two and the references to the flood, i would like to point out it is not merely a biblical myth but a worldwide phenomena, with over 500 seperate flood legends worldwide. So either there is some truth to the matter or cultures worldwide have created an elaborate hoax to fool future generations. The wiki article is quite fascinating creationwiki.org/Global_flood.
The following elements are common to nearly all the accounts:
A flood was sent by the divine to punish mankind.
A family of people and a number of animals were spared from the flood in a boat.
All life on earth outside the boat or not native to the water was destroyed.
The residents of the boat repopulated the whole earth.
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view? That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization? Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory. If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand. There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people. Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat. I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
Ahem i hope i am not intruding into the debate, after watching the banter betwixt you two and the references to the flood, i would like to point out it is not merely a biblical myth but a worldwide phenomena, with over 500 seperate flood legends worldwide. So either there is some truth to the matter or cultures worldwide have created an elaborate hoax to fool future generations. The wiki article is quite fascinating creationwiki.org/Global_flood.
The following elements are common to nearly all the accounts:
A flood was sent by the divine to punish mankind.
A family of people and a number of animals were spared from the flood in a boat.
All life on earth outside the boat or not native to the water was destroyed.
The residents of the boat repopulated the whole earth.
Sure there was a huge arc and massive floods, and Noah was 600 years old. Come on guys, this is the 21st century. All regions of the earth have stories about dragons and vampires, it doesn't make them true.
To prove to himself that he can fail to predict something eventually. Hey the big guy upstairs must be going insane knowing everything that is going to happen. Someday someone will excercise true freewill and break the pattern.
Can you guys please stop attacking each other? It's kind of going off topic and it's just getting too negative. I'm interested in hearing more peoples thoughts/opinions on the topic.
Sure there was a huge arc and massive floods, and Noah was 600 years old. Come on guys, this is the 21st century. All regions of the earth have stories about dragons and vampires, it doesn't make them true.
And your point is because it is the 21st century it is somehow not true?
Generations of explorers, archaeologists, historians, engineers and tourists have puzzled over one the great mysteries of ancient prehistory. At its core this incredible anomaly is quite simple. How did ancient cultures move 70, 100, 200 and even 400-ton blocks of stone using primitive tools and methods? Not only move them also accurately position them to tight tolerances. The question is simple; the problem is complex.
There is an equally serious difficulty that precedes the transport and lifting of megaliths that takes place in the quarry. The only tools the ancient Egyptians had were very small copper chisels and rounded hammer-stones. The inflexible and insurmountable problem that the Great Pyramid presents is the fact that 43 blocks of granite weighing from 30 to 70 tons were quarried, lifted out of the bedrock, transported 500 miles and raised 150 vertical feet to the King's Chamber
Is it possible that humans developed the technology to fly in early civilizations - or in civilizations that are now lost to history? Let's take a look at what some call the evidence - intriguing artifacts, carvings, inscriptions and legends - that they say point to the true record human of flight.
It is well known that atomic detonations on or above a sandy desert will melt the silicon in the sand and turn the surface of the Earth into a sheet of glass. But if sheets of ancient desert glass can be found in various parts of the world, does it mean that atomic wars were fought in the ancient past or, at the very least, that atomic testing occurred in the dim ages of history
One of the strangest mysteries of ancient Egypt is that of the great glass sheets that were only discovered in 1932. In December of that year, Patrick Clayton, a surveyor for the Egyptian Geological Survey, was driving among the dunes of the Great Sand Sea near the Saad Plateau in the virtually uninhabited area just north of the southwestern corner of Egypt, when he heard his tyres crunch on something that wasn't sand. It turned out to be large pieces of marvellously clear, yellow-green glass.
One of the great mysteries of classical archaeology is the existence of many vitrified forts in Scotland. Are they also evidence of some ancient atomic war? Maybe, but maybe not.
There are said to be at least 60 such forts throughout Scotland. Among the most well-known are Tap o'Noth, Dunnideer, Craig Phadraig (near Inverness), Abernathy (near Perth), Dun Lagaidh (in Ross), Cromarty, Arka-Unskel, Eilean na Goar, and Bute-Dunagoil on the Sound of Bute off Arran Island. Another well-known vitrified fort is the Cauadale hill-fort in Argyll, West Scotland
Vitrified ruins can also be found in France, Turkey and some areas of the Middle East.
The most numerous vitrified remains in the New World are located in the western United States. In 1850 the American explorer Captain Ives William Walker was the first to view some of these ruins, situated in Death Valley. He discovered a city about a mile long, with the lines of the streets and the positions of the buildings still visible. At the center he found a huge rock, between 20 to 30 feet high, with the remains of an enormous structure atop it. The southern side of both the rock and the building was melted and vitrified. Walker assumed that a volcano had been responsible for this phenomenon, but there is no volcano in the area. In addition, tectonic heat could not have caused such a liquefication of the rock surface.
An associate of Captain Walker who followed up his initial exploration commented: "The whole region between the rivers Gila and San Juan is covered with remains. The ruins of cities are to be found there which must be most extensive, and they are burnt out and vitrified in part, full of fused stones and craters caused by fires which were hot enough to liquefy rock or metal. There are paving stones and houses torn with monstrous cracksЙ [as though they had] been attacked by a giant's fire-plough."
Generally all the earths desert region's rest upon virtrified areas. This encompasses every continent.
It is a widespread belief in alternative science that our forefathers possessed a much greater technological knowledge than our schoolbook science is willing to accept. Many of those theories are lacking serious foundation and are often based on overdrawn speculations, like the Manna machine I discussed before. But the theory that electricity was known and used in antiquity seems to rest on a much more stable foundation.
Taken together it does suggest a quite high level of advancement, high enough for the construction of an "ark"
Catastrophism is the idea that Earth has been affected in the distant past by sudden, short-lived, violent events that were sometimes worldwide in scope.
600 years? who is to say how long people lived in that time, several things affect the aging process, one of these are radiation and free radicals, perhaps they were less, and if they had a high level of civilization there medical knowledge could have been greater than our own. Not to mention the genes and succeptibility to disease of an individual. perhaps Noah was of a better gene pool than our own.
Do i expect you to believe any of this? no of course not , your mind is closed, any records were for the most part whiped out in the flood and through time. And the fact you have been educated to belive that the present is the epitome of human advancement.
I am suggesting here that it is not, nor is this the first time mankind has exited the caves to build an advanced civilization.
But please continue to live with a closed mind,and fail to grasp the possibilty of Ancient history, that no one alive today was there to whitness.
Comments
You know more about the billsh*t, but not about the real thing. No site is going to make anyone a believer. I showed you a site that refutes all the nonsense YOu were throwing; because they are old, weak arguments against God.
Remember, you have no idea what I believe, you only think you do. Obviously your parents and I do not believe in the same things at all. I feel terrible about how you were raised and on behalf of the Lord, I'm sorry.
I dress like a Jedi because it is funny; I don't take myself very seriously at all -- I am 46 years old and will always be young at heart.
I talk to God regularly but I don't "hear" him talk back. Sometimes I think I am straightjacket crazy but it all seems to work out in the end.
Try not to have preconceived notions about what I am and what I believe. I believe what I believe after believing what you seem to believe for most of my life. I didn't come to believe what I believe until after many years of study of many disciplines. I know all people have different paths but if you are curious and willing to face the challenge, I'm there for you.
One word on this though. It is mot my "mission" to convert anyone. My "mission" involves setting believers free more than leading people to Him. I find that others are much better at that than me. What I am good at is freeing people who DO believe who are held captive to legalistic doctrines that stifle them. More often than it it's people who believe but had people like your parents crush the Spirit within them.
If you take a few minutes and read my little Sunday messages on my blog you'll see I have a very different angle than your average "Joe Christian."
Honestly though this isn't really the proper place for this. I don't want to be a pain in the ass believer and only want to share what I know and believe with people who want to know more; thus it doesn't really belong here on a public gamer forum. To every thing there is a season and all that....
fishermage.blogspot.com
You don't feel uncomfortable with yourself in showing your ignorance of this Bible you are arguing against?
Honestly, if you REALLY want to learn -- and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt -- I have a nice website where everything you are talking about and more, is answered on a regular basis. If you have the courage to have your own views challenged, please check this site out:
www.tektonics.org/
I was an agnostic/athiest from about the age of 13 to the age of 36. I have read every book by every modern athiest (Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and more), and many books by and about all of earth's religions. I continue to challenge myself. Do you?
To answer, no, I don't.
Right now I'm doing some Biology homework. I figured Chemistry was good for my first college degree. I thought maybe I should study something new for this second college degree I'm getting right now.
I can physically SEE how the world works. All of my questions are answered. I don't have to "make it up" when I don't know an answer, I can do research and testing. negatives and positives hundreds on times in independant, dependant, and controlled variables.
If you believe in dieties to give you a warm fuzzy, then fine. I'm don't really care. Yes, I know it's pointless to point out how silly religion is to people. but don't hold back the rest of us that want to find more facts about the past and future.
Not brave enough to boldly face the challenge, eh? If all of your questions are answered, you'll never be much of a scientist. I believe in God because there is a preponderance of evidence that He exists, as many scientists before you have believed, and after you will believe. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about it -- just cold naked truth, combined by the ultimate power and love in the universe.
I wouldn't dream of holding you back -- your small worldview is what is doing that.
What evidence?
BTW, I'm not a Bio or Chem major I should have gone down those routes, but I have not. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly.
It took reading dozens of books and learning from people, and not being afraid to face all the facts. If you are ever brave enough to get started, I have a small reading list to get you going. It might be harder than any course you've ever taken, since it will challenge everything you believe, and since you are a hard case as I was, It's gonna take years; lots of study, and quite a few experiments.
Many people believe easily, but with people like you and me it's not like that. We need to be convinced. That takes WORK.
Let me know if and when you have the courage to continue.
So in other words you don't know and are full of shit. I see. I already knew this though.
When I ask for evidence, I expect physical proof tested against all variables that theory is fact, until then, your "books" are excuses for what the authors of the bible forgot to put in. Nothing more.
Toodles.
Then you believe nothing in history? very little of what we call history involved physical proof (although there IS archaology, which is good stuff); nothing in history can be tested and repeated. There are other kinds of knowledge than scientific knowledge, isn't there?
Any time you feel like taking up the challenge, let me know. If there's enough evidence to convince me, there's more than enough to convince you.
fishermage.blogspot.com
hey dude.
i enjoyed your answer to what came before the big bang.
your best guess was 'space'
i thought the big bang created space and time and matter and everything?
silly rockstar.
i should really be a pyscho...pyschoanal.... a head doctor or, i enjoy judging people, not judging them- just classifying them. perhaps not classifying them...you know, ....reading them. uh huh.
i read you loud and clear. i see the messages you convey.
i actually read this whole thread.
ive been banned for a few days...so, not having the option to hit the 'reply' or, 'hey everyone, look at me, im on the internet and my words matter most' button, i have a better understanding.
fisher, i do believe you are right.
knowledge is key to understanding.
and to close:
"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
(With the) burden of proof tossed upon the believers."
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Don't read too much in to it, to try and analyze the finer points is to miss the point of the myth, it is a story about obedience to authority and the dangers of too much curiosity and having a free spirit. If you start getting into analysis you will run into all kinds of problems, sure a world wide flood does not make sense and sure it does not make sense to make a guy build a boat to house two of every animal, but that really isn't what the story is about, it is about destruction and redemption and so forth. To take these myths and consider the practical problems and logical inconsistancies asking why nots and what ifs is to miss the point of the story, so don't get hung up on burning bushes, parted seas, plagues, people living in whales, wrestling matches and giants, take them for what they are, stories.
Just look at other mythology, how does the giant serpant or the world tree make sense in norse mythology?, it doesn't in a practical sense but in a symbolic way is does. That is the way mythology and creation stories work.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Peaceandlove,
I am starting to see now that this really isn't about your science and god issue.
This is about you having to face some truths that you know in your heart to be true, but don't want to let go of the part that you think is part of your being. I promise you that it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be in your mind.
At first I thought you were just being really arrogant and mean for the sake of it, or to harrass. But this goes much deeper and is personal for you.
Whoever did the abuse and manipulating on you was wrong to the Nth degree. And THEY obviously wanted to impose their idea of how they believed someone should live on you forcefully.
We all know that manipulation always brings up rebellion. It's like a law of physics, gravity even. They were wrong. period.
There is a difference between Law (like the exodus part of the bible) and grace. Both are in scripture and are very clearly reconciled..... but... Not by being good enough, acting a certain way, dressing a certain way, talking a certain way... all that IS TRUELY BULLCRAP....we both agree on that point.
There is also a huge difference between Religion and Faith, one is a pathetic attemp by mere men to make you conform to their way of living. (usually in a way that gives them more power over you) and the other frees your mind to explore and develope on your own.
I was trying to get you to the big bang theory to argue that even dawkins admitted there is possibly an intelligent design behind it, (though he tried to use aliens instead of God as the source..lol) Ok so maybe you don't want to play that game... that's cool.
All the knowledge in this world can't help a person who's been wronged feel better can it? you have been wronged, it's clear to several of us. No, this isn't some form of pity either, so just stop.
It's just honest sincere concern.
Clearly you are intelligent and sharp in your thinking. Do you think that there are no smart people who also believe in God? The two are not mutually exclusive. Though you've conditioned yourself to think that they are.
To quote a TV show from the 90's when a person said they didn't believe in God, the reply was "That's ok, God believes in you."
Just felt like saying all that, not sure why.
You don't feel uncomfortable with yourself in showing your ignorance of this Bible you are arguing against?
Honestly, if you REALLY want to learn -- and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt -- I have a nice website where everything you are talking about and more, is answered on a regular basis. If you have the courage to have your own views challenged, please check this site out:
www.tektonics.org/
I was an agnostic/athiest from about the age of 13 to the age of 36. I have read every book by every modern athiest (Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and more), and many books by and about all of earth's religions. I continue to challenge myself. Do you?
To answer, no, I don't.
Right now I'm doing some Biology homework. I figured Chemistry was good for my first college degree. I thought maybe I should study something new for this second college degree I'm getting right now.
I can physically SEE how the world works. All of my questions are answered. I don't have to "make it up" when I don't know an answer, I can do research and testing. negatives and positives hundreds on times in independant, dependant, and controlled variables.
If you believe in dieties to give you a warm fuzzy, then fine. I'm don't really care. Yes, I know it's pointless to point out how silly religion is to people. but don't hold back the rest of us that want to find more facts about the past and future.
Not brave enough to boldly face the challenge, eh? If all of your questions are answered, you'll never be much of a scientist. I believe in God because there is a preponderance of evidence that He exists, as many scientists before you have believed, and after you will believe. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about it -- just cold naked truth, combined by the ultimate power and love in the universe.
I wouldn't dream of holding you back -- your small worldview is what is doing that.
What evidence?
BTW, I'm not a Bio or Chem major I should have gone down those routes, but I have not. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly.
It took reading dozens of books and learning from people, and not being afraid to face all the facts. If you are ever brave enough to get started, I have a small reading list to get you going. It might be harder than any course you've ever taken, since it will challenge everything you believe, and since you are a hard case as I was, It's gonna take years; lots of study, and quite a few experiments.
Many people believe easily, but with people like you and me it's not like that. We need to be convinced. That takes WORK.
Let me know if and when you have the courage to continue.
So in other words you don't know and are full of shit. I see. I already knew this though.
When I ask for evidence, I expect physical proof tested against all variables that theory is fact, until then, your "books" are excuses for what the authors of the bible forgot to put in. Nothing more.
Toodles.
Then you believe nothing in history? very little of what we call history involved physical proof (although there IS archaology, which is good stuff); nothing in history can be tested and repeated. There are other kinds of knowledge than scientific knowledge, isn't there?
Any time you feel like taking up the challenge, let me know. If there's enough evidence to convince me, there's more than enough to convince you.
Yet... Just thought I would spice up this useless thread alittle more. Guess I could have been alittle more productive and posted something like pale blue dot.
No, human's may never reach the point of being able to do what I implied. But science is suggesting it is plaussable on some lvl to manipulate. Atom's or was it protons or some shit. I forget atm. A single one has been observed in 2 different places at the same time. I don't fully understand the stuff not gonna say I do.
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
There is no reason to rule out either one; but there is substantially more reason to believe in God than aliens. Of course that depends on what you mean by "aliens." One could mean extradimensional lifeforms as well as lifeforms from other worlds. All that is speculative.
As far as dawkins is concerned -- as a logical analyst...he makes a great biologist. In other words, he has stepped out of his field and his ignorance shows. This often happens with scientist and other experts. When we leap from one field where we are quite knowledgeable, we refuse to take the time to learn a whole new discipline and find we are ignorant of some very basic things.
he argues, as I made the point with you, against medieval theology and apologetics. he argues against fundamentalism -- something most Christians do not believe in. He argues against a Bible as if it were a magic book handed by God, as opposed to a library of writings of difefrent people encountering Him in different ways.
Dawkins oversimplifies the subject, creates a straw man, and attacks it. Just plain weak. Almost as bad as the angry one, Sam Harris.
Also, when you read the writings of these athiests, do you get the feeling they are HAPPY? I don't. Why do you suppose that is? I'm not advocating a soft and fuzzy happiness, but something deep and meaningful that doesn't need to insult and attack people and their ideas to feel confident.
Just a question: How many experiments have you conducted with Diety? How often have you tested Him? have you set your own parameters of what it would take to convince you, then set out to find the evidence according to those parameters? Or have you set the bar impossibly high, so that a Diety who loved you would never do what it would take for you to believe, like remove all freedom from you?
At any rate, I get the feeling that you are not up to the challenge...
Let me give you another one. How about learning enough about all this to be able to teach your parents that they are wrong according to the Jesus they supposedly follow? To learn more about what they claim to know and teach them that they just MIGHT have a good deal of their beliefs wrong, and how that may have harmed your relationship with them?
Again none of this belongs on this forum so if you ARE willing to take some chances and want to go beyond your safe place, let me know.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I have a question.
It's often believed by those with a background in faith that the universe is far too complex to have just happened to evolved into what it is today. That a powerful, onipitent being such as a 'God' would be required to create it.
If that indeed is the case, this 'God' would have to be far more complex than the universe it created. Right? It surely couldn't have just always existed, if something such as matter, which is far less complex than said 'God', needed to be created.
So where did this 'God' come from? How did it come to be?
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
so dont you see?
since science is theory re: the universe and, theory will not be proven in our lifetimes + God cannot be proven * fishers point in acceptance of billion year old science theories=stalemate
but,
you are practicing a form of bigotry, to imply your disdain for religions-noticeably bible religions is unacceptable in todays tolerant societies. do we not have the freedom to co-exist in peace? it is true that human life has been a struggle up til today-men have been animals in the name of God but today we get along peacefully or much better,at least in some religions- thanks to our evolution. religions are more tolerant and its message is peace, it is you that has become less tolerant.
i blame your politics. there divisiveness, hypocricy.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
mirrors man.
if you look at 2, you can see forever.
thats a doozy, your question that is.
it hurts my head to think about it.
owwww
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Yeah that's why the "watchmaker" analogy isn't the best apologetic, and has been largely discounted for some time (no pun intended). There is no reason to assume that something complex needs something more complex to create it. man is a machine -- a fixed state machine, and we are quite likely to someday create something more complex than ourselves, so the other side isn't necessarily true. Also, in another sense, we create something more complex than ourselves every day -- the economy and society we take part in.
A better question (and it's not completely conclusive) is how do we get from purposelessness (non-life) to purposefulness (life)?
Or how did the Laws of the Universe come into being? These aren't exactly the 'god of the gaps' idea; the problem goes a bit deeper. These are not questions that it is likely our scientific understanding will answer.
Also, assuming the universe has no meaning, why do WE have meaning? why do we seek and strive for meaning? As always these aren't the be all and end all -- but they are better questions to ponder than the watchmaker issue. These are barely the beginning of such ponderings, but they are hardly proof of anything or evidence if anything either way -- just cool questions to think on.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Good luck getting an answer. I'm still waiting on the arc questions.
Prepare to be related to. Followed by challenges and quotes that have nothing to do with the questions you ask.
By the question you asked, I'm sure their responses will be typical self-rationalizations.
Oh, and what self-rationalization have I given? Please instruct me and show me where I am wrong?
And what questions are you waiting on? I'll answer anything I can for you. If I can't, I'll tell you that as well.
fishermage.blogspot.com
peaceandlove
you know no peace and love. well, perhaps you know love.
a gay jewish man.
it is your politics that motivate your arrogance.
yes.
the same is true for my father in law.
you see, we are all not that different.
you can be however,
if you try to express yourself through understanding of free will,
rather than mockery of it.
perhaps one day,
when all your college courses are long paid for-
you will be lucky enough
to have a glimpse of the person you can be;
oh, im trying ringo-
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Ohhhh you mean i didn't answer your ARK question. I thought I did. I said, maybe it's JUST a story; not really history. Not all Christians or Jews believe in the bible that way; there's no need to be a fundamentalist to believe in God, or Jesus Christ. What makes you thinkthat the fundamentalst view is the CORRECT view?
That's not a rationalization at all. Why do you think it's a rationalization?
Or, what if it was DNA? what if Noah had in test tubes all the life that would perish? A wooden ark (assuming the wood part is true) would be destroyed and gone by now, so there would be no evidence. Again, this is only granting that it's not just an allegory.
If the story was written in 1200 BC or so, about something that happened in say 10,000 BC, for people of the time, one would write it in a way the people of that time would understand.
There's lots of possibilities, but as I said, I'm not married to any of them, because the Flood and the Noah's Ark story might just be a story of a people.
Also, IF, remember IF, we are dealing with the God and creator of the Universe, who can resurrect the dead and created the entire universe, it's not a stretch he can shrink animals to fit in a boat.
I didn't rationalize, I said in many ways -- I don't know -- but I also said it wasn't particularly important to my belief, or most believers belief -- your view of it only has interest to fudamentalists -- just like the young earth creationist stuff.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You are wrong about me. I had a long reply speaking to this but I'll keep it simple.
The big bang theory. It's a theory. In other words, it's not proven fact. I believe that this is a logical explaination about how things are the way they are. Honestly, I don't even care. but if asked, then yeah, my answer is that. Yes, I am interested in the testing they are starting to test the theory. I'm sure religions are on the edges of their seats so they can write another "fill the gaps" book making excuses for the bible. I can feel it. Watch....
What was before the big bang? My best guess is just space. space->big bang->universe as we see it today. I know it wasn't some amazing myth or scientific theory, it's just an educated guess, nothing more. I'm not even claiming to be right on this subject. Moreover, my "best guess" is nothing to really start an arguement about, I didn't know you were baiting me for one (well, I did, I just didn't know i let you down so much).
The laws of physics and gravity are wrong? Did i read that correctly? I'm not attacking you, I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.
Dawkins. Aliens v. Dieties I don't even know where to begin with this. They both are funny claims and I'm embarassed to even think about it at the same time.
I don't rule out aliens being real. Is that strange that I believe an alien will fall out of the sky before some magical old man? Again, need the proof. No all the pyramida throughout the world doesn't count either, although interesting.
so dont you see?
since science is theory re: the universe and, theory will not be proven in our lifetimes + God cannot be proven * fishers point in acceptance of billion year old science theories=stalemate
but,
you are practicing a form of bigotry, to imply your disdain for religions-noticeably bible religions is unacceptable in todays tolerant societies. do we not have the freedom to co-exist in peace? it is true that human life has been a struggle up til today-men have been animals in the name of God but today we get along peacefully or much better,at least in some religions- thanks to our evolution. religions are more tolerant and its message is peace, it is you that has become less tolerant.
i blame your politics. there divisiveness, hypocricy.
I wouldn't call it "evolution", I would call it cherry picking what works for them and ignore the rest. At the same time boast about how they follow the "word of god" yet do not.
I mean what happened to go to every city and kill every man, woman, and child. Then burn their city to the ground for believing in anything other than god? Or disobediant teenagers shall be stoned to death? Shall I continue? Oh, but thou shall not kill right?
None of these people EVER give the same answers to these questions. Know why? They make it up as they go. The bible doesn't answer everything like they claim and when you call them on their bullshit, they make up some self-rationalizing answer that they feel comfortable with to believe is true. What they forget is the people that they are trying to pawn off these bullshit excuses to are not buying it. The answers usually end up more crazy than the question itself.
This old guy at work for example, one of many religious people at work who, of course, look down at me. Says that the new "sins" by the pope is the word of god and is in the bible. The wackjob that he is, carries one with him at all times. So I said, show me where god talks about birth control pills, since it's a sin now according to the pope for women to use birth control pills. Of course, he says, yeah it is in the bible, but wouldn't show me. Then finally I got him to look for it. He couldn't, then disappeared for 3 hours. But he's an easy one. Well, most are easy, but then again, I'm in the south right now and well, it's true with what they say about these people (another subject).
I'm not cherrypicking, I am using my mind to its fullest. the reason they give different answers to difefrent questions is because they are different people with different theories about the text, and ideas about the text, and different experiences.
I am frankly giving you answers where I think I have them, and not when not. there are plenty of whacky religious people out there, but no more than their are wacky athiests (Kim Jon Il comes to mind).
Not all of the theists in the world are rationalizers. Do you know what a rationalization actually IS? It certainly isn't what I did, which was basically answer you honestly, "I don't know."
Oh, and I don't think it's a sin to use birth control pills, and most Christians don't believe that. That's a catholic thing for the most part. It's not in the Bible.
It is interesting you seem to hate us because we are all the same yet then get annoyed when we are all different. It seems there is no making you happy with us no matter what. Maybe it's you?
fishermage.blogspot.com
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
I know man. I know you believe it's a story. I know you don't believe the world is 4,000 years old. But I run into a lot that do believe in these things. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm not directing so much towards you man. I'm generally speaking. You all are different but at the same time the same, I find it very, well, I don't have a proper word for it.
But all people everywhere are all different and all the same -- it's called being human. Athiests and agnostics are the same and all different as well. Penn and Teller are funny and interesting as Athiests, Sam Harris is butthead -- Christopher Hitchens is a butthead too -- but is very smart and witty and a good writer. He's also drunk
Kim Jong Il is a monster in pajamas.
Humans are like that -- we each interpret the data we are given in different ways.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
Ahem i hope i am not intruding into the debate, after watching the banter betwixt you two and the references to the flood, i would like to point out it is not merely a biblical myth but a worldwide phenomena, with over 500 seperate flood legends worldwide. So either there is some truth to the matter or cultures worldwide have created an elaborate hoax to fool future generations. The wiki article is quite fascinating creationwiki.org/Global_flood.
The following elements are common to nearly all the accounts:
A flood was sent by the divine to punish mankind.
A family of people and a number of animals were spared from the flood in a boat.
All life on earth outside the boat or not native to the water was destroyed.
The residents of the boat repopulated the whole earth.
Everything you just wrote was self-rationalizing, how do you now see that? You make up an answer that you feel comfortable with.
Also, I'm not really speaking directly to you. I am claiming that in general "christians" cannot give a straight answer on anything.
So to you it's just a story. The next guy will say it's the truth. It doesn't matter. It's all cherry picking.
10,000 BC? but but, according to christians, the world is 4,000 years old. Care to defend them?
DNA? Really?
Shrink all the animals. I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the story? Strange that a giant flood is mentioned that wipes out the planet and all living things but not shrinking billions of species of animals. Was the world still flat then? Did Noah go to South America? What happened to those animals? He must have got all of them because they are there today. Even newly discovered ones every year. He must be pretty smart to find them all in time. Oh and put them back after the flood. Oh and forgot to tell the world that there are other continents on the planet.
Honestly, i already knew what your reply was going to be and you didn't disappoint. You are all the same. Yet, nothing you say is. Why is there such a huge difference in opinions on the bible from the same people whos life it controls?
Cherry picking from the bible.
Making excuses.
there you go again. very FEW Christians believe the earth is 4,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say that.
I think I am giving you VERY straight answers. On the Noah story: I said FIRST: it is probably not literally true. IT doesn't have to be -- only if you are a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists make up about 5% of christians TOPS, probably less. Why do you keep saying Christians when you are speaking of a slim minority?
THEN, I played your game -- I ASSUMED it was literally true and gave you ideas...then you said in answer, "why doesn't it say that?" why WOULD IT? If Noah was some ancient advanced scientist, and after the flood technology had collapsed, why would the story told thousands of years later talk of something the people would not even remotely understand?
The Bible doesn't control anyone's life -- where did you get that idea? The Bible certainly doesn't say that it controls anyone's life. Again you say we are all the same but yet we are all different, and you don't like that. Not making much sense.
You have some very bizarre and incorrect notions of what Christianity is, either in its mainstream or on its fringes.
Cherrypicking -- by your standards, EVERYTHING everyone believes ever is cherrypicking. Why don't all republicans pro-life? Why aren't all democrats in favor of higher taxes? You've got some odd views about people and human thought.
Obviously you refuse to engage with your mind and can't let go of your own bigotry. Your hate will not set you free.
Ahem i hope i am not intruding into the debate, after watching the banter betwixt you two and the references to the flood, i would like to point out it is not merely a biblical myth but a worldwide phenomena, with over 500 seperate flood legends worldwide. So either there is some truth to the matter or cultures worldwide have created an elaborate hoax to fool future generations. The wiki article is quite fascinating creationwiki.org/Global_flood.
The following elements are common to nearly all the accounts:
A flood was sent by the divine to punish mankind.
A family of people and a number of animals were spared from the flood in a boat.
All life on earth outside the boat or not native to the water was destroyed.
The residents of the boat repopulated the whole earth.
Yup, great point. Thanks for your input
fishermage.blogspot.com
Sure there was a huge arc and massive floods, and Noah was 600 years old. Come on guys, this is the 21st century. All regions of the earth have stories about dragons and vampires, it doesn't make them true.
The simple truth of the matter?
amen to that.and jesus hates us all.
Challenge me.
Can you guys please stop attacking each other? It's kind of going off topic and it's just getting too negative. I'm interested in hearing more peoples thoughts/opinions on the topic.
And your point is because it is the 21st century it is somehow not true?
Hmm dragons? remnant dinasours? Mokele Mbembe?en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokele-mbembe
Vampires? i suggest you look into cattle and human mutilations. www.think-aboutit.com/mutilations/Human_Mutilations.htm www.crystalinks.com/animal_mutilation.html different time period same phenomena.
Just because something has been denied by the majority doesn't make it possible. Or that something is not going on the majority are simple unaware of.
Now for the flood a huge ark, just how advanced were people before the the flood?could such a vessel be built?
www.hiddenmysteries.org/author/hart/movingmega.html
Generations of explorers, archaeologists, historians, engineers and tourists have puzzled over one the great mysteries of ancient prehistory. At its core this incredible anomaly is quite simple. How did ancient cultures move 70, 100, 200 and even 400-ton blocks of stone using primitive tools and methods? Not only move them also accurately position them to tight tolerances. The question is simple; the problem is complex.
There is an equally serious difficulty that precedes the transport and lifting of megaliths that takes place in the quarry. The only tools the ancient Egyptians had were very small copper chisels and rounded hammer-stones. The inflexible and insurmountable problem that the Great Pyramid presents is the fact that 43 blocks of granite weighing from 30 to 70 tons were quarried, lifted out of the bedrock, transported 500 miles and raised 150 vertical feet to the King's Chamber
Ancient flight?
www.world-mysteries.com/sar_7.htm
Is it possible that humans developed the technology to fly in early civilizations - or in civilizations that are now lost to history? Let's take a look at what some call the evidence - intriguing artifacts, carvings, inscriptions and legends - that they say point to the true record human of flight.
possible nuclear war in the ancient past?
www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/720501/posts
It is well known that atomic detonations on or above a sandy desert will melt the silicon in the sand and turn the surface of the Earth into a sheet of glass. But if sheets of ancient desert glass can be found in various parts of the world, does it mean that atomic wars were fought in the ancient past or, at the very least, that atomic testing occurred in the dim ages of history
One of the strangest mysteries of ancient Egypt is that of the great glass sheets that were only discovered in 1932. In December of that year, Patrick Clayton, a surveyor for the Egyptian Geological Survey, was driving among the dunes of the Great Sand Sea near the Saad Plateau in the virtually uninhabited area just north of the southwestern corner of Egypt, when he heard his tyres crunch on something that wasn't sand. It turned out to be large pieces of marvellously clear, yellow-green glass.
One of the great mysteries of classical archaeology is the existence of many vitrified forts in Scotland. Are they also evidence of some ancient atomic war? Maybe, but maybe not.
There are said to be at least 60 such forts throughout Scotland. Among the most well-known are Tap o'Noth, Dunnideer, Craig Phadraig (near Inverness), Abernathy (near Perth), Dun Lagaidh (in Ross), Cromarty, Arka-Unskel, Eilean na Goar, and Bute-Dunagoil on the Sound of Bute off Arran Island. Another well-known vitrified fort is the Cauadale hill-fort in Argyll, West Scotland
Vitrified ruins can also be found in France, Turkey and some areas of the Middle East.
The most numerous vitrified remains in the New World are located in the western United States. In 1850 the American explorer Captain Ives William Walker was the first to view some of these ruins, situated in Death Valley. He discovered a city about a mile long, with the lines of the streets and the positions of the buildings still visible. At the center he found a huge rock, between 20 to 30 feet high, with the remains of an enormous structure atop it. The southern side of both the rock and the building was melted and vitrified. Walker assumed that a volcano had been responsible for this phenomenon, but there is no volcano in the area. In addition, tectonic heat could not have caused such a liquefication of the rock surface.
An associate of Captain Walker who followed up his initial exploration commented: "The whole region between the rivers Gila and San Juan is covered with remains. The ruins of cities are to be found there which must be most extensive, and they are burnt out and vitrified in part, full of fused stones and craters caused by fires which were hot enough to liquefy rock or metal. There are paving stones and houses torn with monstrous cracksЙ [as though they had] been attacked by a giant's fire-plough."
Generally all the earths desert region's rest upon virtrified areas. This encompasses every continent.
ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp
It is a widespread belief in alternative science that our forefathers possessed a much greater technological knowledge than our schoolbook science is willing to accept. Many of those theories are lacking serious foundation and are often based on overdrawn speculations, like the Manna machine I discussed before. But the theory that electricity was known and used in antiquity seems to rest on a much more stable foundation.
Taken together it does suggest a quite high level of advancement, high enough for the construction of an "ark"
A massive flood? it is called Catastrophism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophism
Catastrophism is the idea that Earth has been affected in the distant past by sudden, short-lived, violent events that were sometimes worldwide in scope.
600 years? who is to say how long people lived in that time, several things affect the aging process, one of these are radiation and free radicals, perhaps they were less, and if they had a high level of civilization there medical knowledge could have been greater than our own. Not to mention the genes and succeptibility to disease of an individual. perhaps Noah was of a better gene pool than our own.
Do i expect you to believe any of this? no of course not , your mind is closed, any records were for the most part whiped out in the flood and through time. And the fact you have been educated to belive that the present is the epitome of human advancement.
I am suggesting here that it is not, nor is this the first time mankind has exited the caves to build an advanced civilization.
But please continue to live with a closed mind,and fail to grasp the possibilty of Ancient history, that no one alive today was there to whitness.