Sharajet, anecdotes are NOT arguments. I began by saying that many many bad things have been done in the name of religion. By dispensing with that on the onset, it invalidates all your anecdotes, regardless of the bile you spit with them. If you have a point to make, make it. Your anecdotes are not relevant. Please go back, reread, and actually address what I am saying.
So your argument is that you've handwaved all the things that the church is done, and therefore when you make statements like "Christianity perfected the scientific method" small things like the fact that they persecuted its founder becomes minor, an anecdote?
Apart from all the horrifying, terrible things the church has done, besides its persecution of intellectuals, its history of supporting despots (or being one itself), it's laundry list of torture, violence, pain, oppression, and overall misery, if we ignore all of this... it was a pretty good thing. Remind anyone of anything?
Stan: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers... And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
So this is a question that appears many times in my head. Why did God create an earth full of so much evil and pain? Was it to teach human beings a lesson so that they would learn to full love each other?
I should think this would be obvious. He enjoys watching animals kill one another.
Do you jump up and down on a flower to make it grow?
So this is a question that appears many times in my head. Why did God create an earth full of so much evil and pain? Was it to teach human beings a lesson so that they would learn to full love each other?
I should think this would be obvious. He enjoys watching animals kill one another.
Do you jump up and down on a flower to make it grow?
Well I quite agree with that because as I've said this earth is like his art hobby / movie , strictly for creative and entertainment purposes but maybe there's also lessons that we the actors learn in it.
What do you mean about the flower thing though? I don't quite get it heh...
When you think about it...Life is really unfair in a sense , you were created on this earth not by your own will and put into a body without any of your own ability to select it only to be thrown into a world full of dualities and hardships and what is the reward you get when you die? Possibly nothing , possibly being thrown back into another physical body and to go through all the hardships of life yet again for an infinite amount of times or a glorious , ever peaceful heaven full of eternal bliss.
Sharajet, anecdotes are NOT arguments. I began by saying that many many bad things have been done in the name of religion. By dispensing with that on the onset, it invalidates all your anecdotes, regardless of the bile you spit with them. If you have a point to make, make it. Your anecdotes are not relevant. Please go back, reread, and actually address what I am saying.
So your argument is that you've handwaved all the things that the church is done, and therefore when you make statements like "Christianity perfected the scientific method" small things like the fact that they persecuted its founder becomes minor, an anecdote?
Apart from all the horrifying, terrible things the church has done, besides its persecution of intellectuals, its history of supporting despots (or being one itself), it's laundry list of torture, violence, pain, oppression, and overall misery, if we ignore all of this... it was a pretty good thing. Remind anyone of anything?
Stan: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers... And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Still waiting for you to disprove all the GOOD that has come from religion, as opposed to cataloguing the bad (or praising other people with different religions). Science came about because of a certain religious view. Slavery ended because of a certain religious view. Women's rights, including the right to vote, came about because of a certain religious view. The entire notion of equality came because of a certain religious world view.
The notion of Liberty came from a certain religious view. The notion of a government of Laws and not men came from religion as well. The civil rights movement was largely the product of religion.
The blues grew out of black spiritual music, which gave birth to jazz AND rock and roll -- all have religion as their parents.
I am NOT discounting the good work of those who have no religion, and I am not ignoring all the bad religion (or more accurately, certain religious views) has done. What I am doing is bringing out just a small slice of all the GOOD that religion has done, which you choose to ignore and throw back anecdotes of something I have conceded in my initial statement.
1. - The earth is here for us to enjoy and evolve on. If you believe that there is a life after death than that makes sense. If not, you can enjoy it anyway.
2. - Evil is a man-made category, and what one man calls "evil", another calls "good". None of them exists, it's just opinion based. Same thing with crime: what one country or age of time calls "criminal", another doesn't.
3. - Pain can be effective in telling you that you're not doing things effectively.
4. - God doesn't exist, therefore he didn't create the earth. The whole God idea is just a power-trip that worked: people thought they had to obey, and religious leaders could do as they pleased. And that still goes on.
5. - That doesn't have to mean that the earth wasn't created by someone, but that doesn't matter, cause if you get to appreciate the world, you won't have to question it's value.
if this is a test of believing without proof (faith?) do you really think you asking for proof get you anywhere?
for me it boils down to these questions:
will my conscience continue existing after my physical body dies?
if the answer is "no", well.. nice knowing you all. have fun while it lasts, though its not like you'll "miss" it, you won't be to miss it.
if yes, will the things i did when i had this body effect my "afterlife" in the sense that me being questioned and verdicted?
if the answer is "no", man! think about the angry mob chasing the religion authorities, how many zillion conned?
if the answer is "yes", well, the religion you get depends highly on where you are born so i think i can drop the religion specific things, you know, sacrifice the virgin, dance when raining, gather on somedays,fast.
i'll try to be nice to other people, share when i'm able and do what i think is right though, not because some book says so but because it makes me feel good.
in the end everything i do, i do for myself, for my well-being.
What if I told you all that God and the devil made a wager,a kind of standing bet for the souls of all mankind?
Imagine that life on earth exists in a state of détente, a balance between the forces of good and evil scrupulously maintained through the ages. Humans choose their own paths in this realm and, in doing so, seal their fates for the realm beyond; some bound for heaven and some for hell.
As part of this divine wager for all the souls in the world, both God and the devil are restricted from direct contact with the human race and its free will but are allowed a measure of influence through intermediaries. Neither fully angels nor demons, these earthbound influence peddlers are best described as half-breeds. Suppose you were very good in life, or very bad. They wrap your soul up in human skin and send you back on missions.
In ordinary bodies these half-breeds slip freely through the human population, doing their work. They share the roads, hold jobs, engage in myriad relationships with their human hosts and no one is the wiser. They look just like us. You could live side by side with them, maybe even be married to one of them or be friends with them and never know it...
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
So this is a question that appears many times in my head. Why did God create an earth full of so much evil and pain? Was it to teach human beings a lesson so that they would learn to full love each other?
Well going from the Gurus teachings and Hinduism , it makes the most sense that this earth is a piece of art or more so an on going movie. It has all the layers of expressions that make a piece of artwork complete : disgust , beauty , hate , love , happiness , sadness , health , disease. Basically it is full of dualities , why can't we just have all the good things? Well then I suppose this on going cosmic movie/art of God wouldn't be as interesting. It makes sense to me that it is nothing from than a drama , a play or a movie as the Gurus would say. If we really were hear to learn some great lesson , couldn't it be taught in a more...positive and better way? Why don't we live on the earth forever? Why arn't we immortal? Well obviously man wasn't created to live on such a place of duality for eternity.
Who is God? If God is omnipotent , omniscient and omnipresent than why did he give man so many issues to work out on his own and why is he so mysterious? Why is he kept so hidden from us? In one of the scriptures is says that God is infinite so how can he exist in a place of such finiteness. But then why are we finite? what was the point of making us suffer through this finite , stressful and negative world just so God could have a on going drama to entertain himself with? And what are we rewarded with for having to participate for a good hundred years without our own will , so we didn't will ourselves to be created on this earth why should we be trapped here? And yet the only way out is through this very painful process called death. How is it fair? Simply put , it isn't. If heaven does exist and it is eternal and is eternal love , peace and joy then that would be a fair reward but the question is why arn't we already there? Why are we here in this body of gross matter as a slave of the sense objects? Do we really reincarnate?
I'll never tell,
well ok maybe I will
JUST KIDDING!
I"LL NEVER TELL
GET OVER IT and read the Bible like everyone else.
(edit) Oh and stop being mean to your sister's dog.
4. - God doesn't exist, therefore he didn't create the earth. The whole God idea is just a power-trip that worked: people thought they had to obey, and religious leaders could do as they pleased. And that still goes on.
I'm continually shocked to see a boldness in regards to atheism - not even agnosticism. MOST of the world's population believes in a God, if not godS - so why are YOU so confident, being the minority and being without evidense nor proof to proclaim and believe such an 'against the grain' type of anti-religion philosophy?
Comments
speaking of people still believing in a flat earth...
www.theflatearthsociety.org/
i know off topic but still lol...
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
So your argument is that you've handwaved all the things that the church is done, and therefore when you make statements like "Christianity perfected the scientific method" small things like the fact that they persecuted its founder becomes minor, an anecdote?
Apart from all the horrifying, terrible things the church has done, besides its persecution of intellectuals, its history of supporting despots (or being one itself), it's laundry list of torture, violence, pain, oppression, and overall misery, if we ignore all of this... it was a pretty good thing. Remind anyone of anything?
Stan: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers... And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
I should think this would be obvious. He enjoys watching animals kill one another.
Do you jump up and down on a flower to make it grow?
I should think this would be obvious. He enjoys watching animals kill one another.
Do you jump up and down on a flower to make it grow?
Well I quite agree with that because as I've said this earth is like his art hobby / movie , strictly for creative and entertainment purposes but maybe there's also lessons that we the actors learn in it.
What do you mean about the flower thing though? I don't quite get it heh...
When you think about it...Life is really unfair in a sense , you were created on this earth not by your own will and put into a body without any of your own ability to select it only to be thrown into a world full of dualities and hardships and what is the reward you get when you die? Possibly nothing , possibly being thrown back into another physical body and to go through all the hardships of life yet again for an infinite amount of times or a glorious , ever peaceful heaven full of eternal bliss.
So your argument is that you've handwaved all the things that the church is done, and therefore when you make statements like "Christianity perfected the scientific method" small things like the fact that they persecuted its founder becomes minor, an anecdote?
Apart from all the horrifying, terrible things the church has done, besides its persecution of intellectuals, its history of supporting despots (or being one itself), it's laundry list of torture, violence, pain, oppression, and overall misery, if we ignore all of this... it was a pretty good thing. Remind anyone of anything?
Stan: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers... And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Still waiting for you to disprove all the GOOD that has come from religion, as opposed to cataloguing the bad (or praising other people with different religions). Science came about because of a certain religious view. Slavery ended because of a certain religious view. Women's rights, including the right to vote, came about because of a certain religious view. The entire notion of equality came because of a certain religious world view.
The notion of Liberty came from a certain religious view. The notion of a government of Laws and not men came from religion as well. The civil rights movement was largely the product of religion.
The blues grew out of black spiritual music, which gave birth to jazz AND rock and roll -- all have religion as their parents.
I am NOT discounting the good work of those who have no religion, and I am not ignoring all the bad religion (or more accurately, certain religious views) has done. What I am doing is bringing out just a small slice of all the GOOD that religion has done, which you choose to ignore and throw back anecdotes of something I have conceded in my initial statement.
fishermage.blogspot.com
1. - The earth is here for us to enjoy and evolve on. If you believe that there is a life after death than that makes sense. If not, you can enjoy it anyway.
2. - Evil is a man-made category, and what one man calls "evil", another calls "good". None of them exists, it's just opinion based. Same thing with crime: what one country or age of time calls "criminal", another doesn't.
3. - Pain can be effective in telling you that you're not doing things effectively.
4. - God doesn't exist, therefore he didn't create the earth. The whole God idea is just a power-trip that worked: people thought they had to obey, and religious leaders could do as they pleased. And that still goes on.
5. - That doesn't have to mean that the earth wasn't created by someone, but that doesn't matter, cause if you get to appreciate the world, you won't have to question it's value.
if this is a test of believing without proof (faith?) do you really think you asking for proof get you anywhere?
for me it boils down to these questions:
will my conscience continue existing after my physical body dies?
if the answer is "no", well.. nice knowing you all. have fun while it lasts, though its not like you'll "miss" it, you won't be to miss it.
if yes, will the things i did when i had this body effect my "afterlife" in the sense that me being questioned and verdicted?
if the answer is "no", man! think about the angry mob chasing the religion authorities, how many zillion conned?
if the answer is "yes", well, the religion you get depends highly on where you are born so i think i can drop the religion specific things, you know, sacrifice the virgin, dance when raining, gather on somedays,fast.
i'll try to be nice to other people, share when i'm able and do what i think is right though, not because some book says so but because it makes me feel good.
in the end everything i do, i do for myself, for my well-being.
I need more vespene gas.
What if I told you all that God and the devil made a wager,a kind of standing bet for the souls of all mankind?
Imagine that life on earth exists in a state of détente, a balance between the forces of good and evil scrupulously maintained through the ages. Humans choose their own paths in this realm and, in doing so, seal their fates for the realm beyond; some bound for heaven and some for hell.
As part of this divine wager for all the souls in the world, both God and the devil are restricted from direct contact with the human race and its free will but are allowed a measure of influence through intermediaries. Neither fully angels nor demons, these earthbound influence peddlers are best described as half-breeds. Suppose you were very good in life, or very bad. They wrap your soul up in human skin and send you back on missions.
In ordinary bodies these half-breeds slip freely through the human population, doing their work. They share the roads, hold jobs, engage in myriad relationships with their human hosts and no one is the wiser. They look just like us. You could live side by side with them, maybe even be married to one of them or be friends with them and never know it...
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I'll never tell,
well ok maybe I will
JUST KIDDING!
I"LL NEVER TELL
GET OVER IT and read the Bible like everyone else.
(edit) Oh and stop being mean to your sister's dog.
I'm continually shocked to see a boldness in regards to atheism - not even agnosticism. MOST of the world's population believes in a God, if not godS - so why are YOU so confident, being the minority and being without evidense nor proof to proclaim and believe such an 'against the grain' type of anti-religion philosophy?
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
Hmmmm...
Didn't the latest Indiana Jones teach anyone a lesson? I'm not sure I want all that knowledge. It might make me explode.
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