Originally posted by Enkindu All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
His point was it was cheaper, not easier... way to readbeforepost there mate >_> .
His point was that people used/exploited it to far, and in to big numbers for CCP to look the other way.
/continue rant thread
Clarification for those who refuse to use the round thing sitting on their neck:
It is easier now - skill points and money wise.
You wanna explain this? It seems to me that creating an alt to sell with a really useful skillset (supercap parking alt for example) you could train a couple months worth of skills up while paying and then let those key level 5 skills train for many months without paying.. resulting in a very valuable character to sell with VERY LITTLE account time paid for.
Stopping ghost training put a halt to this.
How is it easier and cheaper to do this now? Please note that here I am not being confrontational, I'm honestly curious about your reasoning.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following:
1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills.
2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic.
3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed.
If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole.
You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves.
It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror.
I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
/facepalm
I'll accept that as a complete inability to counter anything I said with logic.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Originally posted by Enkindu You wanna explain this? It seems to me that creating an alt to sell with a really useful skillset (supercap parking alt for example) you could train a couple months worth of skills up while paying and then let those key level 5 skills train for many months without paying.. resulting in a very valuable character to sell with VERY LITTLE account time paid for. Stopping ghost training put a halt to this. How is it easier and cheaper to do this now? Please note that here I am not being confrontational, I'm honestly curious about your reasoning.
Buddy keys, NPE, retail. Just count how much SP you get for 30 bucks... Alt 'business' is not about production of cap pilot alts requiring +1 year of training but mediocre advanced chars with about 1-10M SP.
Originally posted by Enkindu I'll accept that as a complete inability to counter anything I said with logic.
And how about something to back up your claim about "alt business."
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to se more than anecdotal evidence.
You can lay off the histrionics too- putting your virtual face in your palm just makes you look like a child.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
By my calculations only 30 % or so of these toons are less than a year old by that measure. Are you telling me you can get a years worth of skillpoints with currently available methods for 30 bucks?
You could with ghost training.
Edit- fixed one of the numbers above.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
I played long enough, admitingly some time ago, to know how the system works and it is fair to say that time sub'd equals more skills, period. It is also accurate to say that if you have a player who starts today and one that starts a month or two later that the player who started later will never catch up to the player that started earlier as the skills earned are based not of accomplishment or play time but character time. That statement only serves to highlight that condition in saying that it is unfair that a sub'd player doesn't catch up to and unsub'd player, CCPs own words call that an unfair advantage. I am not saying it breaks the game, but come on - it is a major impediment to players started now verse those who have been playing any length of time.
I think the change is a good one (as it does at least let active accounts catch up to inactive ones) but I just find the stated reasoning from CCP ironic as they unwittingly confirm one of the biggest issues people have in coming late to the game.
Originally posted by Kyleran And lets cut to the chase about the elimination of ghost training. Forget the excuses, CCP wanted to make more money, and elimination of Ghost training seems to have accomplished exactly that.
On this much we agree.
As a new player this change was def much needed, what this change meant is that if I continue to Sub to EVE I can eventually catch on to some players, with the ghost training it means the first guy to create a character in EVE will always be ahead of everyone, even if he decides not to play.
You will never catch up in terms of SP *period*. Thats the whole point of not having a skill cap
edited for politeness since he seemed like a geniune new player. Don't want to chase them away because they probably just dont know up from down being new
Anyway here we are a few months later. I cant recall what I posted before. I dont recall threatening to quit. I do recall saying if I did decide to quit I wouldnt have a reason to return. Previous times when I quit- something cool would pop like Heavy Drone V, etc so I'd come back to see how much more powerful I was
You know, it was like a 'buff' or enticement for me to return.
Anyway at some point I did quit. And I wasnt coming back. But now what they do to lure vets back is grant you free time to come back and train. So I swallowed the bait and now I guess I'm kinda happy its gone? I dunno. On one hand its a good change cause now my old buddies have come back to play wit me and they know if they cancel account they wont be able to train anymore
So overall I guess I like it? But! If I quit again, they will once again need to extend some offer or more content for me to return. These shitty little patches wont bring anyone back. They need to add new content that people can actaully use. Wormholes is kinda ok however 95% of us cant afford T3 cruisers. This isnt really content for me. I feel like ive been playing excact same game for yrs
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Originally posted by Enkindu Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
Disussing with you is pointless since you just pick what you want to hear or not.
Personal question: You must have hard time with EVE buddy program(omg - 1 month of play you did not pay for!) and all sorts of promos, don't ya?
I am not commenting your other posts regarding alt trading because it would require /facepalm no. 3...
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
Disussing with you is pointless since you just pick what you want to hear or not.
Personal question: You must have hard time with EVE buddy program(omg - 1 month of play you did not pay for!) and all sorts of promos, don't ya?
I am not commenting your other posts regarding alt trading because it would require /facepalm no. 3...
I provided a concrete example that pretty clearly contradicts your assertions.
You, once again, are apparently unable to respond logically.
The buddy program is a promotion, not an exploit. Did you drop out of school?
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
T3 cruisers run over billions of ISK. Please send me the name of the guy that has a fleet of these laying around. I want to ask this guy for tips seriously.
I doubt you know as much as we do about the game if you thought ghost training was an 'exploit'. all you had to do was go back a few pages only takes a second
Anyone reasonably intelligent can have 5 billion isk in this game 6 months. There are two new people in my corp that learned exploration with me out in NPC 0.0, and coupled that with a little invention and T2 production to make a good bit of isk quickly. Ask any of the vets on this board and they'll tell you the same thing.
If "billions of isk" is an unreachable goal for you then I say again you really can't call anyone a noob. I've never bought ISK, I've run a corp in the game since 2004, lived in 0.0 for 90% of that time without belonging to an alliance, and managed to accumulate assets probably worth 20-25 billion isk. In a month we'll be building the T3 cruisers with resources that we've acquired almost completely on our own.
What I think about ghost training has NOTHING to do with my experience in the game. I thought it was an exploit 3 years ago, and I still think it is an exploit. I think people that used it to advance their characters without paying were doing something unethical. You don't seem to understand me at all here: just because you CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT.
I heard about unsubbed training years ago just like everyone and MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO DO IT. What part of this do you not understand? CCP was well within their rights to close this loophole and I'm glad they did.
The people crying about this are spoiled brats with an absurd sense of entitlement. When you stop paying a company, they NO LONGER OWE YOU ANY SERVICE. You would have to be childishly naive or a sociopath to think differently.
I really doubt we can have any logical discourse here if you truly can't see that strategically stopping payment on you account to cheaply advance your character is an obvious exploit.
CCP was cool about this for a long time- probably in an effort not to screw over people that really did have a tough time affording the game.. but when the abuse became WHOLESALE they would have been idiots not to put a stop to it. I'm pretty sure I booted a guy from my corp in 2006 when he said "oh I'm going inactive for a few months while I train Gallente BS V." I saw that as an indication of a character flaw, both then and now.
You are confusing my conscious moral assessment with a lack uf understanding of the game. Quite honestly it is making you look like you have a reading comprehension problem.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
When I started this game 2006 CCP clearly said that the skill in training would be continue to train until it was finished. It it really was a intended feature when they initially made the game one may discuss, but it was a (unintended) feature that they mention and by themself told about. Maybe they at that time thougth it was a error that could pass and didn't need to be fixed, you know sometimes "great" things comes from peoples error and maybe that was their motivation to keep it.
So there was no need to hear it from other, not in any way, CCP advertised this. When I first canceled the game it was pretty clear for me that my trainging would be completed, that from CCP own information.
That they now removed it with the words that it was not originally intended might very well be true.
Saying that people using this feature is ethical incorrect, ok, sure that it your view about it. But calling out people, saying they are shortsighted/selfish/stupid is stretching it abit.
Now the discussion at the end of this happenings moved forward to that CCP really would lose (alot of?) subscribers. That is yet to happen. So seemingly this also was a great feature but not anything that was of major importance of the subscribers at the end of it.
Still waiting on replies to my questions though, it would be fun if any of those doom&gloom people could revalue and repost.
So just let the thread sink, at this time there really should be anyone discussing or whining about the removal of ghosttraining. I reservemy right to bump it next time there is somekind of new record in EVE concerninge the subscriber base (or similar). (Unless it is locked.)
The whole skill trains untill its finished thing even if you are offline is an intended feature. the whole skill trains while you are not subscribed to EvE till its finished was not an intended feature but for 5 years they hadant gotten around to fixing this loophole in the skill system. So consider yourselvs lucky that CCP let you keep all those 'Ghost' trained skills after making the change.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
The whole skill trains untill its finished thing even if you are offline is an intended feature. the whole skill trains while you are not subscribed to EvE till its finished was not an intended feature but for 5 years they hadant gotten around to fixing this loophole in the skill system. So consider yourselvs lucky that CCP let you keep all those 'Ghost' trained skills after making the change.
and it took 5 years to update their website? that's at the darkfall level of incompetence.
and it took 5 years of, ooooooooo, everyone talking about unsubbed training AS an intended feature; before one of the staff (who all play the game and read the forums) noticed it?
take yer snake oil to the darkfall forum. fairy tales like the quoted belong there.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Anyone reasonably intelligent can have 5 billion isk in this game 6 months. There are two new people in my corp that learned exploration with me out in NPC 0.0, and coupled that with a little invention and T2 production to make a good bit of isk quickly. Ask any of the vets on this board and they'll tell you the same thing. If "billions of isk" is an unreachable goal for you then I say again you really can't call anyone a noob. I've never bought ISK, I've run a corp in the game since 2004, lived in 0.0 for 90% of that time without belonging to an alliance, and managed to accumulate assets probably worth 20-25 billion isk. In a month we'll be building the T3 cruisers with resources that we've acquired almost completely on our own. What I think about ghost training has NOTHING to do with my experience in the game. I thought it was an exploit 3 years ago, and I still think it is an exploit. I think people that used it to advance their characters without paying were doing something unethical. You don't seem to understand me at all here: just because you CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT. I heard about unsubbed training years ago just like everyone and MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO DO IT. What part of this do you not understand? CCP was well within their rights to close this loophole and I'm glad they did. The people crying about this are spoiled brats with an absurd sense of entitlement. When you stop paying a company, they NO LONGER OWE YOU ANY SERVICE. You would have to be childishly naive or a sociopath to think differently. I really doubt we can have any logical discourse here if you truly can't see that strategically stopping payment on you account to cheaply advance your character is an obvious exploit. CCP was cool about this for a long time- probably in an effort not to screw over people that really did have a tough time affording the game.. but when the abuse became WHOLESALE they would have been idiots not to put a stop to it. I'm pretty sure I booted a guy from my corp in 2006 when he said "oh I'm going inactive for a few months while I train Gallente BS V." I saw that as an indication of a character flaw, both then and now. You are confusing my conscious moral assessment with a lack uf understanding of the game. Quite honestly it is making you look like you have a reading comprehension problem.
all that is fine and dandy...
unsubbed training was eve's version of "rested experience".
where's my rested xp now?
by the by, i can consciously choose to never fly anything other than a rifter that is completely t1 fitted -- doesn't change the fact that a whole lot more is available to me, and is stated to be available to me by the makers of the game.... now does it? (the answer is, "no it doesn't change that fact.")
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
The whole skill trains untill its finished thing even if you are offline is an intended feature. the whole skill trains while you are not subscribed to EvE till its finished was not an intended feature but for 5 years they hadant gotten around to fixing this loophole in the skill system. So consider yourselvs lucky that CCP let you keep all those 'Ghost' trained skills after making the change.
and it took 5 years to update their website? that's at the darkfall level of incompetence.
and it took 5 years of, ooooooooo, everyone talking about unsubbed training AS an intended feature; before one of the staff (who all play the game and read the forums) noticed it?
take yer snake oil to the darkfall forum. fairy tales like the quoted belong there.
Yes it took 5 years and they knew about if for 5 years too, and yes it took them 5 years to fix it as they had much more important stuff to fix first.
Now my advice is that this necro topic just die a silent death.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
All I have ever known and all I will ever NEED to know about this topic is the following: 1. I heard from people that you could stop paying for your account and continue to train long skills. 2. I determined that this was not something an ethical person would do regardless of the origin of the mechanic. 3. I have zero sympathy for anyone negatively affected when this loophole was closed. If you do, in fact, have a brain you will realize that this would have NEVER been an intended mechanic in the game. I'm sure CCP realized it at somepoint early on, and then they decided to be cool about it. Then everyone and their brother started abusing the mechanic to advance skills of alt characters. CCP made the logical decision that enough was enough and closed the loophole. You people that used this mechanic heavily brought this change about yourselves. It is always the actions of a few shortsighted, selfish individuals (here with an ABSURD sense of entitlement) that screw things like this up for everyone. You want to yell at someone about the end of ghost training? Find the nearest mirror. I wish all of the people that were big "ghost trainers" would quit whining and just quit already. The average intellectual quality of the eve player base would improve by leaps and bounds.
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
So if i understand this guy right, he's like a nutjob fundamentalist christian in that he feels his set of morals and ethics are superior and thus the only acceptable in existence, and anyone who does not agree should be ignored as they are an inferior set of neanderthals incapable of grasping his moral superiority. In the ballpark?
As for those trying to say "But, but you cant do it in other games!" Show me one damn game on Earth that is anywhere near as complicated for leveling as EVE. I reach level 80-90 on SWG or WoW and thats it, i'm done there and forever. And just doing that doesnt take anywhere near the time it takes in EVE just to get your hands on the money and skills for a PVP'able battleship (unless you find a reaaaally nice corp).
Suffice it to say, you didnt much appreciate the feature. But to call out those who did use a feature approved and applauded by its OWN DEVELOPERS and the removal of which had been rescinded in the past and to call these people "unethical" i feel is a pretty elitist attitude. No, you are not god, and that set of commandments on your lap that you chizzled in your back yard 2 years ago are not actually the law of the land.
Sorry, i dont normally post...as you can clearly see...but this poster just seemed to jump out at me as strangely over-aggressive...
The only one crying around here is you Gdem. That's all you have been doing aorund here the last couple of months. Seriously man if you are that pissed at CCP just leave. No one is forcing you to stay, just leave. You are pissed off over petty shit for god knows what reason and you come here to spew it, get over it and yourself and move on.
Actually he's 100% correct. While I'm about TIRED of this silly debate... it's over.. it's done... move the hell on already.... he's 100% correct.
"Ghost Training" was not only a feature of the game since release it was a widely ADVERTIZED feature. It was one of CCP's main SELLING POINTS and was mentioned in multiple online add campaigns and even multiple DEV Blogs. It was *never* a loophole or a bug. That is the point that got players pissed was when they tried to claim it was a bug. Bottom line: The change to Ghost training was a deliberate change designed to increase revenue easily. I'm not 100% sure they pulled that off though. I think all they did was kill off the 'casual' spare accounts that people kept around to train alts with.
I'm still trying to figure out why you guys are debating this though. It's a feature that was removed over 6 months ago. It's not coming back, no matter how much anyone complains about it's removal. Personally I don't care that they removed it. What I, and most other people, were pissed about was that they tried to play it off as if it was a bug they were fixing rather than just being honest about it in the first place.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Comments
/facepalm
Clarification for those who refuse to use the round thing sitting on their neck:
It is easier now - skill points and money wise.
You wanna explain this? It seems to me that creating an alt to sell with a really useful skillset (supercap parking alt for example) you could train a couple months worth of skills up while paying and then let those key level 5 skills train for many months without paying.. resulting in a very valuable character to sell with VERY LITTLE account time paid for.
Stopping ghost training put a halt to this.
How is it easier and cheaper to do this now? Please note that here I am not being confrontational, I'm honestly curious about your reasoning.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
/facepalm
I'll accept that as a complete inability to counter anything I said with logic.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Says person who simply ignores the facts...Buddy keys, NPE, retail. Just count how much SP you get for 30 bucks...
Alt 'business' is not about production of cap pilot alts requiring +1 year of training but mediocre advanced chars with about 1-10M SP.
EDIT:
/facepalm no. 2
I'm all ears. Which facts am I ignoring?
And how about something to back up your claim about "alt business."
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to se more than anecdotal evidence.
You can lay off the histrionics too- putting your virtual face in your palm just makes you look like a child.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Quick look at the front page of the "character bazaar" on the eve forums indicates that you may not know what you are talking about.
Here are the skillpoints (in millions) of the characters for sale:
7.8, 22.5, 38.8, 25, 52, 5.6, 37, 30, 36, 46.7, 73, 6.6, 10, 6.5, 56.5, 12, 66.
How many SP do you train in a year on average?
By my calculations only 30 % or so of these toons are less than a year old by that measure. Are you telling me you can get a years worth of skillpoints with currently available methods for 30 bucks?
You could with ghost training.
Edit- fixed one of the numbers above.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
On this much we agree.
As a new player this change was def much needed, what this change meant is that if I continue to Sub to EVE I can eventually catch on to some players, with the ghost training it means the first guy to create a character in EVE will always be ahead of everyone, even if he decides not to play.
You will never catch up in terms of SP *period*. Thats the whole point of not having a skill cap
edited for politeness since he seemed like a geniune new player. Don't want to chase them away because they probably just dont know up from down being new
Anyway here we are a few months later. I cant recall what I posted before. I dont recall threatening to quit. I do recall saying if I did decide to quit I wouldnt have a reason to return. Previous times when I quit- something cool would pop like Heavy Drone V, etc so I'd come back to see how much more powerful I was
You know, it was like a 'buff' or enticement for me to return.
Anyway at some point I did quit. And I wasnt coming back. But now what they do to lure vets back is grant you free time to come back and train. So I swallowed the bait and now I guess I'm kinda happy its gone? I dunno. On one hand its a good change cause now my old buddies have come back to play wit me and they know if they cancel account they wont be able to train anymore
So overall I guess I like it? But! If I quit again, they will once again need to extend some offer or more content for me to return. These shitty little patches wont bring anyone back. They need to add new content that people can actaully use. Wormholes is kinda ok however 95% of us cant afford T3 cruisers. This isnt really content for me. I feel like ive been playing excact same game for yrs
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Disussing with you is pointless since you just pick what you want to hear or not.
Personal question: You must have hard time with EVE buddy program(omg - 1 month of play you did not pay for!) and all sorts of promos, don't ya?
I am not commenting your other posts regarding alt trading because it would require /facepalm no. 3...
Disussing with you is pointless since you just pick what you want to hear or not.
Personal question: You must have hard time with EVE buddy program(omg - 1 month of play you did not pay for!) and all sorts of promos, don't ya?
I am not commenting your other posts regarding alt trading because it would require /facepalm no. 3...
I provided a concrete example that pretty clearly contradicts your assertions.
You, once again, are apparently unable to respond logically.
The buddy program is a promotion, not an exploit. Did you drop out of school?
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
T3 cruisers run over billions of ISK. Please send me the name of the guy that has a fleet of these laying around. I want to ask this guy for tips seriously.
I doubt you know as much as we do about the game if you thought ghost training was an 'exploit'. all you had to do was go back a few pages only takes a second
Anyone reasonably intelligent can have 5 billion isk in this game 6 months. There are two new people in my corp that learned exploration with me out in NPC 0.0, and coupled that with a little invention and T2 production to make a good bit of isk quickly. Ask any of the vets on this board and they'll tell you the same thing.
If "billions of isk" is an unreachable goal for you then I say again you really can't call anyone a noob. I've never bought ISK, I've run a corp in the game since 2004, lived in 0.0 for 90% of that time without belonging to an alliance, and managed to accumulate assets probably worth 20-25 billion isk. In a month we'll be building the T3 cruisers with resources that we've acquired almost completely on our own.
What I think about ghost training has NOTHING to do with my experience in the game. I thought it was an exploit 3 years ago, and I still think it is an exploit. I think people that used it to advance their characters without paying were doing something unethical. You don't seem to understand me at all here: just because you CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT.
I heard about unsubbed training years ago just like everyone and MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO DO IT. What part of this do you not understand? CCP was well within their rights to close this loophole and I'm glad they did.
The people crying about this are spoiled brats with an absurd sense of entitlement. When you stop paying a company, they NO LONGER OWE YOU ANY SERVICE. You would have to be childishly naive or a sociopath to think differently.
I really doubt we can have any logical discourse here if you truly can't see that strategically stopping payment on you account to cheaply advance your character is an obvious exploit.
CCP was cool about this for a long time- probably in an effort not to screw over people that really did have a tough time affording the game.. but when the abuse became WHOLESALE they would have been idiots not to put a stop to it. I'm pretty sure I booted a guy from my corp in 2006 when he said "oh I'm going inactive for a few months while I train Gallente BS V." I saw that as an indication of a character flaw, both then and now.
You are confusing my conscious moral assessment with a lack uf understanding of the game. Quite honestly it is making you look like you have a reading comprehension problem.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
When I started this game 2006 CCP clearly said that the skill in training would be continue to train until it was finished. It it really was a intended feature when they initially made the game one may discuss, but it was a (unintended) feature that they mention and by themself told about. Maybe they at that time thougth it was a error that could pass and didn't need to be fixed, you know sometimes "great" things comes from peoples error and maybe that was their motivation to keep it.
So there was no need to hear it from other, not in any way, CCP advertised this. When I first canceled the game it was pretty clear for me that my trainging would be completed, that from CCP own information.
That they now removed it with the words that it was not originally intended might very well be true.
Saying that people using this feature is ethical incorrect, ok, sure that it your view about it. But calling out people, saying they are shortsighted/selfish/stupid is stretching it abit.
Now the discussion at the end of this happenings moved forward to that CCP really would lose (alot of?) subscribers. That is yet to happen. So seemingly this also was a great feature but not anything that was of major importance of the subscribers at the end of it.
Still waiting on replies to my questions though, it would be fun if any of those doom&gloom people could revalue and repost.
So just let the thread sink, at this time there really should be anyone discussing or whining about the removal of ghosttraining. I reservemy right to bump it next time there is somekind of new record in EVE concerninge the subscriber base (or similar). (Unless it is locked.)
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
The whole skill trains untill its finished thing even if you are offline is an intended feature. the whole skill trains while you are not subscribed to EvE till its finished was not an intended feature but for 5 years they hadant gotten around to fixing this loophole in the skill system. So consider yourselvs lucky that CCP let you keep all those 'Ghost' trained skills after making the change.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
and it took 5 years to update their website? that's at the darkfall level of incompetence.
and it took 5 years of, ooooooooo, everyone talking about unsubbed training AS an intended feature; before one of the staff (who all play the game and read the forums) noticed it?
take yer snake oil to the darkfall forum. fairy tales like the quoted belong there.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
all that is fine and dandy...
unsubbed training was eve's version of "rested experience".
where's my rested xp now?
by the by, i can consciously choose to never fly anything other than a rifter that is completely t1 fitted -- doesn't change the fact that a whole lot more is available to me, and is stated to be available to me by the makers of the game.... now does it? (the answer is, "no it doesn't change that fact.")
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Guys this thread was a nerco as a laugh since Eve released its new 300k+ sub numbers info.
This topic should be dead or locked due to necroing.
Give it a rest and let the damn thing fall off the first page.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
and it took 5 years to update their website? that's at the darkfall level of incompetence.
and it took 5 years of, ooooooooo, everyone talking about unsubbed training AS an intended feature; before one of the staff (who all play the game and read the forums) noticed it?
take yer snake oil to the darkfall forum. fairy tales like the quoted belong there.
Yes it took 5 years and they knew about if for 5 years too, and yes it took them 5 years to fix it as they had much more important stuff to fix first.
Now my advice is that this necro topic just die a silent death.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
You must be a newbie or just dont even play the game. If you did play, you must live under a rock. Even in the manuals, it was described as a feature. Plus it was mentioned by CCP in interviews
horrible post yo at least know the subject before speaking on it
Already said once in this thread all I ever NEEDED to know about this topic was that I didn't expect to get something that I wasn't paying for, and anyone who does is either unethical or an idiot.
And I'm not sure that someone who can't afford a T3 cruiser should be calling ANYONE a noob. I've got people in my corp less than 6 months old that could afford a fleet of them.
I know the game as well or better than you do. Where we disagree is on the ethics here. I don't think CCP owes you jack schitt when you quit paying them. Cry some more for me will ya? You provide humor for the rest of us.
So if i understand this guy right, he's like a nutjob fundamentalist christian in that he feels his set of morals and ethics are superior and thus the only acceptable in existence, and anyone who does not agree should be ignored as they are an inferior set of neanderthals incapable of grasping his moral superiority. In the ballpark?
As for those trying to say "But, but you cant do it in other games!" Show me one damn game on Earth that is anywhere near as complicated for leveling as EVE. I reach level 80-90 on SWG or WoW and thats it, i'm done there and forever. And just doing that doesnt take anywhere near the time it takes in EVE just to get your hands on the money and skills for a PVP'able battleship (unless you find a reaaaally nice corp).
Suffice it to say, you didnt much appreciate the feature. But to call out those who did use a feature approved and applauded by its OWN DEVELOPERS and the removal of which had been rescinded in the past and to call these people "unethical" i feel is a pretty elitist attitude. No, you are not god, and that set of commandments on your lap that you chizzled in your back yard 2 years ago are not actually the law of the land.
Sorry, i dont normally post...as you can clearly see...but this poster just seemed to jump out at me as strangely over-aggressive...
Actually he's 100% correct. While I'm about TIRED of this silly debate... it's over.. it's done... move the hell on already.... he's 100% correct.
"Ghost Training" was not only a feature of the game since release it was a widely ADVERTIZED feature. It was one of CCP's main SELLING POINTS and was mentioned in multiple online add campaigns and even multiple DEV Blogs. It was *never* a loophole or a bug. That is the point that got players pissed was when they tried to claim it was a bug. Bottom line: The change to Ghost training was a deliberate change designed to increase revenue easily. I'm not 100% sure they pulled that off though. I think all they did was kill off the 'casual' spare accounts that people kept around to train alts with.
I'm still trying to figure out why you guys are debating this though. It's a feature that was removed over 6 months ago. It's not coming back, no matter how much anyone complains about it's removal. Personally I don't care that they removed it. What I, and most other people, were pissed about was that they tried to play it off as if it was a bug they were fixing rather than just being honest about it in the first place.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell