I think there are enough games out there that separate PvP and PvE and in all honesty, that's what kills a lot of those games for me. No immersion whatsoever in a game like WoW where you enter an instanced dungeon and only have to worry about mob AI. I don't see the point in playing an MMORPG that has impulsively fake mechanics to curb the actions you described.
If you don't agree with a risk vs. reward philosophy, you probably shouldn't bother with Darkfall. Don't get me wrong, I will hate getting ganked. But I'll adapt appropriately and the when I finally do reach my 'goal', it'll feel that much more rewarding.
Definitely. I consider it much more more rewarding to work against a goal of actual players or even fighting off players and a PvE boss at the same time. It's most certainly not rewarding to beat those bosses Blizzard nerfs every patch even though they're easy before the nerf. The risk of players intervening on your PvE adds a nice dynamic to it that will make it always different rather than the inane task of killing the mobs over and over with no risk.
Ihmotepp: And yet you're scared of getting ganked all the time? Does not compute.
True. In UO, you kept everything in the bank, and only took what you absolutely needed. That was actually very fun. Also, loot in UO was easy to obtain, and easy to lose.
thats how darkfall plan to do it. whether they suceed we shall see.
If your dumb enough to get caught out hunting and lose all your stuff then it's more your fault for not being cautious enough in a dangerous world. Key word her DANGEROUS... not wimpy.
Honestly there are so many other MMO's available for people that dont like PVP please go play those. We cant have every MMO like WOW or WAR or LOTRO... and would we really want them all to be??
I understand those that dont want full loot I really do but this game IS FULL LOOT! So dont play!
If your dumb enough to get caught out hunting and lose all your stuff then it's more your fault for not being cautious enough in a dangerous world. Key word her DANGEROUS... not wimpy. Honestly there are so many other MMO's available for people that dont like PVP please go play those. We cant have every MMO like WOW or WAR or LOTRO... and would we really want them all to be?? I understand those that dont want full loot I really do but this game IS FULL LOOT! So dont play!
If there's not enough people playing then the servers close down, and you can't play either.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but:
Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but: Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
This is the most amusing and also annoying thing that DF fans throw around all the time.
"If you don't have fun here, go play WoW!!!!!" "If you don't like this, go play WoW!!"!"
Seriously. Try growing up a little. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything DF offers/does/wants to do, doesn't mean they are WoW fanatics and/or supporters.
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
I can defintely sympathize with the OP. Straight out loss is harder to swallow these days now that I'm older.
I'd love to see a system where:
A) Instead of getting items from the player, you get tokens or points which can be traded like currency between players and NPC's, independent from the primary currency.
Items that were on you at the time of death or rendered unusable for a certain period of time. They are "Broken" or "Damaged". Could possibly make a currency sink and make them pay to make them usable again, or wait out the time. Consumables like potions and band-aids, and straight out gold/currency could be looted, though.
C) Resources such as wood, iron, etc., the PK would get half, the other half would follow up with B.
Just some random thoughts. It's a bit less immersive, but still, far more immersive than what we have, and it's something I could see adjusting to.
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
Why would you have no chance of winning? Everyone is equal in a computer game.......you can do everything they can do. If you wander around alone then yeah a group of enemy players will probably kill you if they find you........so try not to get found.......or maybe kick all of their arses by demonstrating that they have picked on the wrong player who is actually a supremely skilled swordsman (or whatever). If you are in a small group then a larger group of players will probably kill your group if they encounter you........so try to outsmart them.........or your group might be a bunch of highly skilled individuals while the other bunch might not.......or they might be more disorganised.
In fact the list of variables could go on forever pretty much as it does in real life. There are no numbers floating over peoples heads......no adverts saying "I am weaker than you". You're making these flimsy judgements based on experiences with past PvE level-based games that had PvP added on as an afterthought. People got ganked in those games because higher level players can see the lower level ones. This doesnt apply in Darkfall.
If you consider being killed and looted as a major setback to your enjoyment of a game then you should stick to single player games and safe PvE mmos. Other people are looking for more realism in their games. Problem solved.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but: Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
The sigil of the ADD generation that created the WoW phenomena. I didn't do anything, but here is what I want...and I want it NOW!
Why admit to being so lazy and inept? If you can't read the entire post, or thread for that matter...ah nevermind.
Very good post OP. (I wish more "non-fanboi" posts were thought out like this with support to the arguement they are trying to make).
I will say that we need to wait till open beta and/or release until we see how the game mechanics shape the overall scheme of things regarding pvp encounters in the open world. Saying it is just going to be 8v1 gank squads all day like some in this forum will say is just silly.
If you look at EVE...If you are ratting solo in 0.0 that is owned by people who openly state that they shoot anything that isn't a blue (friend) then there arent many tears shed over the person who gets killed while ratting there. That person may say "lol i got ganked 10v1 how is this fun and ill never win that situation"....but that is ridiculous. The fight started before the guns were fired...it started when he didnt stop and research the area and think about the risks.
Another thing is that it is reported that 3v1 encoutners wont just be a target+lock and watch the homing arrows/fireball/easymode nonsense fly. That solo player will have a chance to get out of the fight or even win the fight given the game mechanics (as reported since we cant play yet).
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
I do not -want- anything (apart from trying the game when it is finally released). I am pointing out a possible problem the game could have.
I am neither asking for a change, nor do i expect one. But I do know what happens when you stretch "few" players over a "vast" amount of space. It -can- be boring at times. I know that from the countless hours spent travelling through 0.0 Space in EVE with a gang in search of targets and unable to find anything that didn't flee immediately.
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
then why dont u get a group and go PK other ppl??? or even better find that exact person/group and try to kill them to get your stuff back.
From my perspective and I know that people won't agree it is quite obvious why people don't like full loot, it's because they don't like to lose, especially if it's against a real person rather than an ai.
Instead of just laughing it off as part of the game to some people getting their non existent pixels stolen by another real person is beyond the pale.
I think the big difference with people who don't care is that they view it as a perfectly legimate action, just like taking someones piece in a game of chess, and that they have been bested fair and square which is exactly what it is within the context of the game rules. If you don't like the ruleset then don't play imo.
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
I do not -want- anything (apart from trying the game when it is finally released). I am pointing out a possible problem the game could have.
I am neither asking for a change, nor do i expect one. But I do know what happens when you stretch "few" players over a "vast" amount of space. It -can- be boring at times. I know that from the countless hours spent travelling through 0.0 Space in EVE with a gang in search of targets and unable to find anything that didn't flee immediately.
Ok great but thats still an argument for change, you have so little faith in the game that you are willing to come into a topic and state your ideas, wants and or needs, yet you fail to see how it hurts those trying to preserve the features of the game as they are.
Truely we all want lots of players, who woudnt? but no way would I support change to get it. This game and all others should be created they way they were intended by the devs. It is then our choice to buy and play the game win or lose for the game company. We need to stop stifiling the creativity just because we think sales will be low, or our server will suffer from low pops...
From my perspective and I know that people won't agree it is quite obvious why people don't like full loot, it's because they don't like to lose, especially if it's against a real person rather than an ai. Instead of just laughing it off as part of the game to some people getting their non existent pixels stolen by another real person is beyond the pale. I think the big difference with people who don't care is that they view it as a perfectly legimate action, just like taking someones piece in a game of chess, and that they have been bested fair and square which is exactly what it is within the context of the game rules. If you don't like the ruleset then don't play imo.
The part I high-lighted above is the part that usually breaks down in any online game.
It's a fairly easy thing to control in live person-to-person game such as your example with chess. It becomes a lot more of a trust issue with online games and MMOs in particular.
Usually when players get the most upset is when they perceive that the other player had some sort of un-fair advantage. That perception doesn't even have to have any basis in logic for some people. It seems that kind of perception is even more paranoid in a Full Loot, FFA, PvP MMO... but perhaps DarkFall will be different.
Why do people see themselfes as weak victems all the time? Quotes such as "i will be ganked and looted all time" is heard over and over again here. Grow some balls instead and say "they better not come here and try to pick a fight because i will *#"¤# them up good".
And i dont tren trust someone saying they are small and fragile.....those persons will likely be the worst gankers around later ingame.
Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO? I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT... 1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring. Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?" There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.) There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.
This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career. I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8 And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.
I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch. A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring. Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining. Discuss.
then why dont u get a group and go PK other ppl??? or even better find that exact person/group and try to kill them to get your stuff back.
I gank you, I loot you, I log off. Standard procedure.
Hard Days work.. think about that.. when a game becomes WORK.. you are doing it wrong. (unless you are a pro sports player.. in which case you are over paid anyways..)
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but: Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
This is the most amusing and also annoying thing that DF fans throw around all the time.
"If you don't have fun here, go play WoW!!!!!" "If you don't like this, go play WoW!!"!"
Seriously. Try growing up a little. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything DF offers/does/wants to do, doesn't mean they are WoW fanatics and/or supporters.
I really don't think that it is an issue of immature responses. The DF game model is vastly different from that of the EQ-clone. I would go so far as to say that the main features of each are MUTALLY EXCLUSIVE. From this perspective introducing some EQ-clone features into DF would totally undermine the original plan.
The way those posters see it is like: 'Hey I like motorcycles but can you put a roof on it in case it rains? Also, my balance is not very good, can you put two more wheels on it? While your at it how about a stereo and air conditioning? Go buy a car...
Comments
pking and ruining for others is so much fun thats why l2 private servers are so popular cause its fun and if you dont like stick to games like wow
Definitely. I consider it much more more rewarding to work against a goal of actual players or even fighting off players and a PvE boss at the same time. It's most certainly not rewarding to beat those bosses Blizzard nerfs every patch even though they're easy before the nerf. The risk of players intervening on your PvE adds a nice dynamic to it that will make it always different rather than the inane task of killing the mobs over and over with no risk.
Ihmotepp: And yet you're scared of getting ganked all the time? Does not compute.
thats how darkfall plan to do it. whether they suceed we shall see.
nuff said thread officially over.
My blog:
If your dumb enough to get caught out hunting and lose all your stuff then it's more your fault for not being cautious enough in a dangerous world. Key word her DANGEROUS... not wimpy.
Honestly there are so many other MMO's available for people that dont like PVP please go play those. We cant have every MMO like WOW or WAR or LOTRO... and would we really want them all to be??
I understand those that dont want full loot I really do but this game IS FULL LOOT! So dont play!
If there's not enough people playing then the servers close down, and you can't play either.
But sure, tell people not to play.
I didn't read any responses and only read a little bit of the OP but:
Fun is subjective. If it's not fun for you... dont do it. Don't play the game, don't wait for the game, don't bitch about the game. If you don't find it fun, go play WoW. Simple.
This is the most amusing and also annoying thing that DF fans throw around all the time.
"If you don't have fun here, go play WoW!!!!!" "If you don't like this, go play WoW!!"!"
Seriously. Try growing up a little. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything DF offers/does/wants to do, doesn't mean they are WoW fanatics and/or supporters.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I can defintely sympathize with the OP. Straight out loss is harder to swallow these days now that I'm older.
Items that were on you at the time of death or rendered unusable for a certain period of time. They are "Broken" or "Damaged". Could possibly make a currency sink and make them pay to make them usable again, or wait out the time. Consumables like potions and band-aids, and straight out gold/currency could be looted, though.
I'd love to see a system where:
A) Instead of getting items from the player, you get tokens or points which can be traded like currency between players and NPC's, independent from the primary currency.
C) Resources such as wood, iron, etc., the PK would get half, the other half would follow up with B.
Just some random thoughts. It's a bit less immersive, but still, far more immersive than what we have, and it's something I could see adjusting to.
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Why would you have no chance of winning? Everyone is equal in a computer game.......you can do everything they can do. If you wander around alone then yeah a group of enemy players will probably kill you if they find you........so try not to get found.......or maybe kick all of their arses by demonstrating that they have picked on the wrong player who is actually a supremely skilled swordsman (or whatever). If you are in a small group then a larger group of players will probably kill your group if they encounter you........so try to outsmart them.........or your group might be a bunch of highly skilled individuals while the other bunch might not.......or they might be more disorganised.
In fact the list of variables could go on forever pretty much as it does in real life. There are no numbers floating over peoples heads......no adverts saying "I am weaker than you". You're making these flimsy judgements based on experiences with past PvE level-based games that had PvP added on as an afterthought. People got ganked in those games because higher level players can see the lower level ones. This doesnt apply in Darkfall.
If you consider being killed and looted as a major setback to your enjoyment of a game then you should stick to single player games and safe PvE mmos. Other people are looking for more realism in their games. Problem solved.
The sigil of the ADD generation that created the WoW phenomena. I didn't do anything, but here is what I want...and I want it NOW!
Why admit to being so lazy and inept? If you can't read the entire post, or thread for that matter...ah nevermind.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
Very good post OP. (I wish more "non-fanboi" posts were thought out like this with support to the arguement they are trying to make).
I will say that we need to wait till open beta and/or release until we see how the game mechanics shape the overall scheme of things regarding pvp encounters in the open world. Saying it is just going to be 8v1 gank squads all day like some in this forum will say is just silly.
If you look at EVE...If you are ratting solo in 0.0 that is owned by people who openly state that they shoot anything that isn't a blue (friend) then there arent many tears shed over the person who gets killed while ratting there. That person may say "lol i got ganked 10v1 how is this fun and ill never win that situation"....but that is ridiculous. The fight started before the guns were fired...it started when he didnt stop and research the area and think about the risks.
Another thing is that it is reported that 3v1 encoutners wont just be a target+lock and watch the homing arrows/fireball/easymode nonsense fly. That solo player will have a chance to get out of the fight or even win the fight given the game mechanics (as reported since we cant play yet).
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
I do not -want- anything (apart from trying the game when it is finally released). I am pointing out a possible problem the game could have.
I am neither asking for a change, nor do i expect one. But I do know what happens when you stretch "few" players over a "vast" amount of space. It -can- be boring at times. I know that from the countless hours spent travelling through 0.0 Space in EVE with a gang in search of targets and unable to find anything that didn't flee immediately.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
then why dont u get a group and go PK other ppl??? or even better find that exact person/group and try to kill them to get your stuff back.
From my perspective and I know that people won't agree it is quite obvious why people don't like full loot, it's because they don't like to lose, especially if it's against a real person rather than an ai.
Instead of just laughing it off as part of the game to some people getting their non existent pixels stolen by another real person is beyond the pale.
I think the big difference with people who don't care is that they view it as a perfectly legimate action, just like taking someones piece in a game of chess, and that they have been bested fair and square which is exactly what it is within the context of the game rules. If you don't like the ruleset then don't play imo.
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
So changing the concept of the game to apease everyone is your idea?? Don't we have enough MMO's out there already that offer what your looking for? Hell Vanguard is huge and offers no full loot, give that a try.
Like I said before, we all know what the feature set is for this game come play or dont but stop asking to change it, you simply end up looking desperate.
Errr....
Where did I -demand- any change? Where di I ask for the game to be made different? I pointed out a simple logic, which you by the way ignored completely in your response.
I didn't even say what I am looking for. I only told you that a huge, seamless world like Darkfall will need a lot more players per server online at the same time to feel populated.
So you simply want as many people to play as possible right?? And does that not follow the logic of those that want to change the game to apease a larger market?
Sounds like I follow your logic just fine......... And if I'm wrong fine but thats the way it sounds to me...
I do not -want- anything (apart from trying the game when it is finally released). I am pointing out a possible problem the game could have.
I am neither asking for a change, nor do i expect one. But I do know what happens when you stretch "few" players over a "vast" amount of space. It -can- be boring at times. I know that from the countless hours spent travelling through 0.0 Space in EVE with a gang in search of targets and unable to find anything that didn't flee immediately.
Ok great but thats still an argument for change, you have so little faith in the game that you are willing to come into a topic and state your ideas, wants and or needs, yet you fail to see how it hurts those trying to preserve the features of the game as they are.
Truely we all want lots of players, who woudnt? but no way would I support change to get it. This game and all others should be created they way they were intended by the devs. It is then our choice to buy and play the game win or lose for the game company. We need to stop stifiling the creativity just because we think sales will be low, or our server will suffer from low pops...
The part I high-lighted above is the part that usually breaks down in any online game.
It's a fairly easy thing to control in live person-to-person game such as your example with chess. It becomes a lot more of a trust issue with online games and MMOs in particular.
Usually when players get the most upset is when they perceive that the other player had some sort of un-fair advantage. That perception doesn't even have to have any basis in logic for some people. It seems that kind of perception is even more paranoid in a Full Loot, FFA, PvP MMO... but perhaps DarkFall will be different.
Why do people see themselfes as weak victems all the time? Quotes such as "i will be ganked and looted all time" is heard over and over again here. Grow some balls instead and say "they better not come here and try to pick a fight because i will *#"¤# them up good".
And i dont tren trust someone saying they are small and fragile.....those persons will likely be the worst gankers around later ingame.
then why dont u get a group and go PK other ppl??? or even better find that exact person/group and try to kill them to get your stuff back.
I gank you, I loot you, I log off. Standard procedure.
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
This is the most amusing and also annoying thing that DF fans throw around all the time.
"If you don't have fun here, go play WoW!!!!!" "If you don't like this, go play WoW!!"!"
Seriously. Try growing up a little. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything DF offers/does/wants to do, doesn't mean they are WoW fanatics and/or supporters.
I really don't think that it is an issue of immature responses. The DF game model is vastly different from that of the EQ-clone. I would go so far as to say that the main features of each are MUTALLY EXCLUSIVE. From this perspective introducing some EQ-clone features into DF would totally undermine the original plan.
The way those posters see it is like: 'Hey I like motorcycles but can you put a roof on it in case it rains? Also, my balance is not very good, can you put two more wheels on it? While your at it how about a stereo and air conditioning? Go buy a car...