Hard Days work.. think about that.. when a game becomes WORK.. you are doing it wrong. (unless you are a pro sports player.. in which case you are over paid anyways..)
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
My Background...original UO player 18 months. DAOC player 5+ years.Couple of thoughts :
-- in UO my stealth allowed me to vanish in a second...my first defense. I carried 2 recall runes to instantly port out.The 2nd was a back up in case the first was stolen by a pickpocket..Often I would only be attacked if I was already in combat with an npc or the group with a minimum of three vs myself.I left after 18 months because of the rampant pk..which was NOT fun.
--played DAOC for 5+ years.I love RVR(not pvp).I can fight when I want ..craft when I want...xp when I want...decorate my house....shop...freedom to do what I want when I want. I certainly hope they have a faction rule set on at least one server, in DF to provide some tranquility.Getting ganked while crafting and loosing materials is a fast way to loose subscribers.DF Dev's say items will not be a big part of the game.We'll have to see.
--NET NET lets see how this game shakes out when the Darkfall Dev's condescend to grace us with more than a paragraph or two about their 7 year multi million dollar project that supposed to launch this month.(checks Mortal Online website again)
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less. You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
You could do that in UO, from which DF borrows takes inspiration. Obviously can't say for sure in DF.
In UO my buddies and I would do this periodically up to 80-85% skill (diminishing returns) at which point we were quite competitive and would then PvP.
Hard Days work.. think about that.. when a game becomes WORK.. you are doing it wrong. (unless you are a pro sports player.. in which case you are over paid anyways..)
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
Yeah... that very scenario has been brought up on the official boards. As far as I know there isn't really a way to stop it from happening... even if they wanted to; which I am not sure they do.
One of the things that was brought up is that the skill gain will be slow enough past a certain point to make that scenario impractical. It might be somewhat viable at lower skill levels though. It might very well be something they have to tweak post-release.
Just like UO had to tweak their skill system to stop all the over-night macroing Master Crafters and other ways of maxing skill-gain while not actually playing the game.
As with any other skill-gain MMO, DarkFall will be constantly tweaking their system to make it hard for people to macro, but yet still have it fun to play.
Yeah... that very scenario has been brought up on the official boards. As far as I know there isn't really a way to stop it from happening... even if they wanted to; which I am not sure they do.
Why would you want them to stop it from happening? Why is it a bad thing?
For me the most important aspect of MMORPGs is the MM part. I like to play social games. I would much rather prefer the option of sparring with some buddies and socialize in order to advance my character some of the way rather than go solo quests and mobs for hours.
Yeah... that very scenario has been brought up on the official boards. As far as I know there isn't really a way to stop it from happening... even if they wanted to; which I am not sure they do.
Why would you want them to stop it from happening? Why is it a bad thing?
For me the most important aspect of MMORPGs is the MM part. I like to play social games. I would much rather prefer the option of sparring with some buddies and socialize in order to advance my character some of the way rather than go solo quests and mobs for hours.
Hard Days work.. think about that.. when a game becomes WORK.. you are doing it wrong. (unless you are a pro sports player.. in which case you are over paid anyways..)
Actually, humans enjoy working. Working to achieve a goal. Satisfaction of obtaining that goal, etc.
It's actually rather ironic for a few players. They will hate their jobs in real life, yet come home and play a game where they do the same (work) but enjoy it and have tons of fun- failing to realize they could have the same satisfaction, joy, and enjoyment in their regular job (well... as long as they dont work at McDonalds or under the care of the boss from Hell)
Human beings take pleasure, enjoyment, and fun out of working. Thats what you do in most games- you work.
What some people fail to realize is that not everyone hates their job or has a crappy job. Just because it is fun or enjoyable doesn't change the fact it's work.
I find it rather sad that some less fortunate people will harp and claim that if you have a nice boss, your job is enjoyable, or your boss is your good friend, and you dont have a boss from hell and a job that deals with hard labor and frustrating customers- it's not "real work" or a "real job".
I got a lot of enjoyment in UO, working hard killing monsters to earn enough gold to buy what I wanted, so I could kill more monsters and earn more gold to have in case I lose that armor. I worked so I could work. And I loved it.
Humans take joy in knowing they have value. That they provide to the village, family structure, or they take care of themselves and are able to reproduce.
They take joy in knowing they have overcome an obstacle or challange..
Gaming is a hobby (or, for some people, a means of finacial support) If you are not having fun doing your hobby, then you are doing it wrong. Knowing that what you accomplished can be taken away at the drop of a random disconnect..
Point: If you aren't having fun doing your hobby, pick a different hobby.
Humans try to survive, and when they survive, they try to stive, or impove their situation. Games offer a release from stress, and should NOT be the cause of more stress.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Nice try but thats simply not true, those that want the features of this MMO will play. Myself and all of my freinds dont play WOW yet it exists and thrives. Your logic is scewed, you have no idea how many people are willing to play this type of game.
I really do not understand the conecpt of looking at a games feature set and deciding that come hell or high water your gonna make this game the way YOU want it to be. The devs have a vision and that vision is Darkfall with all the features listed as is, and no amount of crying from people that should be playing games with feature sets that they enjoy should change it.
Like I said dont play if you dont like it.... You would be a fool if you did!
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
Here is why you shouldn't be worried about numbers:
The way this system will work is that people will congregate to certain areas. Whether they be main cities or player built cities, that is where people will be. The rest of the world is more of an adventure than a place you'd want to sit around at. Of course, you could go build a house or whatever in a remote place, but you are choosing to be in a remote place. Personally, I think that the way it is setup is a good representation of the fantasy genre because not all the land is a metropolis.
I do agree with your concern though. MMOs are about community (well, they used to be before WoW came out), so the more the merrier.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting."
Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting."
Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
Theres been some great post on this subject but I dont really agree with you, OP..
It's been said that this game will be more about skill then anything else.. (i.e. You go to first person when shooting with bow, and have to aim your self.. Also Gravity psychics, which mean you can actually shoot pretty far, if you do it correctly.)
Anyway, I just wanted you guys to check out this page..
Its post where they have gathered some Beta First impressions quotes.. and I like the thing about loot..
Its seems like its rather complicated/hard actually.. (I've never played UO but they, The testers, seems to make a lot of comparrisons to it) so unless your ALL alone and get attacked they will be able to Full loot, but not if they get aggroed by mobs, since if they dont unsheate their Weapon, they will practicly be defense less.. and will get killed by them before looting everything.. (like 1 of the quotes say, except it was a NPC guard killing him)
EDIT: I think, as I've read the link more firmly now, actually the more junk your carrying around the more junk the looter has go trough to find some valuable stuff, which will increase time for other players to come or Mobs to agro.
And mostly I think there will be at least a few friendly Souls out there.. At least, If I see someone getting ganked 2+-1 or something like that.. I would definetly jump in from behind and surprise them, giving them one more opponent to think about, which can change the entire outcome of the fight, if they arent focused/organised enough. Then I would simply spread their names to people in the Area so they could be carefull or something like it :P hehe. It could create some really nice situations and hate/love relationships, now I think about it
Its all how you look at it I suppose.. I for one, just checked this game out a few days ago, and I've read and watched some stuff.. So please dont knife me if I am totally off.
I usually restrain myself from answering these kind of post, since they all tend to go into flaming, but not this one.. Its nice
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting." Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting." Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
Random pointless pk'ing will kill this game if this is what happens. If there are consequences, depth and a real gamplay reason (e.g. Politics) for PK'ing then this wont be an issue. If the game is massive enough then this may ease tension between people wanting different game experiences.
In eve for example most low sec PK'ing seems to go on just outside high sec space. Rarely has anyone bothered venturing into a quieter system where I am. When they do they often take a shot at me and when I escape they promptly leave. The only real problem was when I accidently entered a system wichih was controlled by a corp. Though I have never been killed once in the 6 or so months I have been in low sec space (by some forward planning and not playing when half asleep). Even had nice chats with a pirate who tried to recruit me .. unless it was a trap
Of course there will always be the easy mode WoW kiddies which that find the whole concept of actually thinking and planning a tad to hard. Oh yeah and all this bollocks about a fair fight ... lol if they could stack the odds against there enemy they would do so and they know it !
honustly please tell me a good enough reason for ganking someone? there isnt any this is why its pretty sad when people do this. do you really have that pathetic of a life to sit in front of a computer and basically bully people around on it?
honustly please tell me a good enough reason for ganking someone? there isnt any this is why its pretty sad when people do this. do you really have that pathetic of a life to sit in front of a computer and basically bully people around on it?
Well you know it isn't always about e peens and griefing... sometimes its just easy to do because people are so stupid and don't take basic precautions. The problem is games like WoW reward even the most stupid player and an idiot can lvl up by mindlessly grinding.
In eve I see so many players wandering around low sec in a crappy cargo ship that I wonder if I should be making some money pirating them.. or at least have a few attempt and see what happens ... and I am essentially a big care bear !
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.
Comments
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
My Background...original UO player 18 months. DAOC player 5+ years.Couple of thoughts :
-- in UO my stealth allowed me to vanish in a second...my first defense. I carried 2 recall runes to instantly port out.The 2nd was a back up in case the first was stolen by a pickpocket..Often I would only be attacked if I was already in combat with an npc or the group with a minimum of three vs myself.I left after 18 months because of the rampant pk..which was NOT fun.
--played DAOC for 5+ years.I love RVR(not pvp).I can fight when I want ..craft when I want...xp when I want...decorate my house....shop...freedom to do what I want when I want. I certainly hope they have a faction rule set on at least one server, in DF to provide some tranquility.Getting ganked while crafting and loosing materials is a fast way to loose subscribers.DF Dev's say items will not be a big part of the game.We'll have to see.
--NET NET lets see how this game shakes out when the Darkfall Dev's condescend to grace us with more than a paragraph or two about their 7 year multi million dollar project that supposed to launch this month.(checks Mortal Online website again)
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
You could do that in UO, from which DF borrows takes inspiration. Obviously can't say for sure in DF.
In UO my buddies and I would do this periodically up to 80-85% skill (diminishing returns) at which point we were quite competitive and would then PvP.
OP: I know you already responded to this (a virtual job can still be fun) and I agree somewhat. However, don't forget the entire context of DF PvP. The 'grind' is supposedly much less.
You should not have to camp one spot and pull the same mob for hours on end to grind XP or reputation while other players of the same race run by without even offering a single word or greeting. Instead meet some new peeps in town, form a group, and go raid somewhere. You can still build your toon (practice skills) and acquire loot at the same time. Games like WoW don't allow you to advance your character (levels) through PvP so you are forced to grind even if that is not your playstyle.
So you're saying I can get my buddy to log on, and then I hit him wiht my sword, and he hits me with his sword, and we do that over and over till we either max out or sword skill, or hit the point of diminishing returns, which is pretty much the same thing as maxing out our skills?
Then we can get bows, and he can shoot me, and I can shoot him, till we max out our bow skills?
Yeah... that very scenario has been brought up on the official boards. As far as I know there isn't really a way to stop it from happening... even if they wanted to; which I am not sure they do.
One of the things that was brought up is that the skill gain will be slow enough past a certain point to make that scenario impractical. It might be somewhat viable at lower skill levels though. It might very well be something they have to tweak post-release.
Just like UO had to tweak their skill system to stop all the over-night macroing Master Crafters and other ways of maxing skill-gain while not actually playing the game.
As with any other skill-gain MMO, DarkFall will be constantly tweaking their system to make it hard for people to macro, but yet still have it fun to play.
Why would you want them to stop it from happening? Why is it a bad thing?
For me the most important aspect of MMORPGs is the MM part. I like to play social games. I would much rather prefer the option of sparring with some buddies and socialize in order to advance my character some of the way rather than go solo quests and mobs for hours.
Why would you want them to stop it from happening? Why is it a bad thing?
For me the most important aspect of MMORPGs is the MM part. I like to play social games. I would much rather prefer the option of sparring with some buddies and socialize in order to advance my character some of the way rather than go solo quests and mobs for hours.
Because it's cheating, IMO.
Actually, humans enjoy working. Working to achieve a goal. Satisfaction of obtaining that goal, etc.
It's actually rather ironic for a few players. They will hate their jobs in real life, yet come home and play a game where they do the same (work) but enjoy it and have tons of fun- failing to realize they could have the same satisfaction, joy, and enjoyment in their regular job (well... as long as they dont work at McDonalds or under the care of the boss from Hell)
Human beings take pleasure, enjoyment, and fun out of working. Thats what you do in most games- you work.
What some people fail to realize is that not everyone hates their job or has a crappy job. Just because it is fun or enjoyable doesn't change the fact it's work.
I find it rather sad that some less fortunate people will harp and claim that if you have a nice boss, your job is enjoyable, or your boss is your good friend, and you dont have a boss from hell and a job that deals with hard labor and frustrating customers- it's not "real work" or a "real job".
I got a lot of enjoyment in UO, working hard killing monsters to earn enough gold to buy what I wanted, so I could kill more monsters and earn more gold to have in case I lose that armor. I worked so I could work. And I loved it.
Humans take joy in knowing they have value. That they provide to the village, family structure, or they take care of themselves and are able to reproduce.
They take joy in knowing they have overcome an obstacle or challange..
Gaming is a hobby (or, for some people, a means of finacial support) If you are not having fun doing your hobby, then you are doing it wrong. Knowing that what you accomplished can be taken away at the drop of a random disconnect..
Point: If you aren't having fun doing your hobby, pick a different hobby.
Humans try to survive, and when they survive, they try to stive, or impove their situation. Games offer a release from stress, and should NOT be the cause of more stress.
Currently playing Real Life..
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif
For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_
Nothing wrong with skilling up like this imo, should be allowed.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
so dont play the game?
/thread
DARKFALL 09!
Apparently 08 didn't make it
Sorros of Forumfall.
/reading comprehension
/the posters
Currently playing Real Life..
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif
For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Actually, your logic is a little flawed, too.
See, WoW thrives, yes, but WoW also does not have a world anywhere as big as DF's is supposed to be. The logic follows that for DF to be well populated, it would need a lot more people on a server at any one time.
I don't want to go into numbers, because that's just plain guesswork, but the simple logic is that with a huge, open, seamless world, you need a lot more players than in a comperatively small, zoned world for it to -feel- alive.
I hope it won't happen, but it could well be that you will run through DF for hours and not see a single other player. That can be fun sometimes...but frustrating at others.
Here is why you shouldn't be worried about numbers:
The way this system will work is that people will congregate to certain areas. Whether they be main cities or player built cities, that is where people will be. The rest of the world is more of an adventure than a place you'd want to sit around at. Of course, you could go build a house or whatever in a remote place, but you are choosing to be in a remote place. Personally, I think that the way it is setup is a good representation of the fantasy genre because not all the land is a metropolis.
I do agree with your concern though. MMOs are about community (well, they used to be before WoW came out), so the more the merrier.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting."
Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
C'mon, don't make me pry it out of you... OK, Why do you think it is cheating?
Unlike EQ-clones, the core gameplay of DF will not be to build one's toon and collect stuff. Did you ever get a chance to play UO or pre-NGE SWG (or any similar skill-based, non-heavily itemized mmo)? If not you might be passing judgement on something without having experienced it.
Because it takes the challenge and relevance out of progression. Progession shows you DID sxomething. I killed 8 billion mobs, completed 8 billion quests, killed 8 billlion enemy players. But you did nothing.
I risk nothing, accomplish nothing, just do a repetitive action with a friend over and over, and max out my skill. It seems entirely pointless. If you're going to allow that, then just give me maxed skills in everything to start with.
Why should we just stand there whacking each other? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
First of all, you don't have to do that. "Training" is a valid way to get better at something. If you want to get better at doing yo-yo tricks, you stand there and do yo-yo tricks over and over. Now, I'm not saying DF should mimick life exactly, but I think it's more immersive to be able to train with a friend instead of being forced to go kill rats. It doesn't make sense that if you are "progressing"/"training" that you wouldn't practice. Take the army for example. They train the soldiers before they go to war. They don't say, "Go out in the streets and shoot enemies so you can get better at shooting."
Now I agree that in games like WoW this tactic is lame. But that is WoW! This is a completely different thing. This type of game is nothing like WoW. I'm curious like someone else was if you ever played UO or pre-cu SWG, because those games are radical shifts from EQ/WoW. The whole point of Darkfall is NOT to get to "max level/skill" or to "defeat the boss". The whole point is to just play the game the way you want to play it. You do whatever you want. If you want to go adventuring and defeat bosses, go ahead. If you want to train with your friend and become a great fighter, go ahead. If you want to explore, go right ahead. This is a game, not a meta-game. You are playing as a character in the Darkfall world; you're not just "gaming the system" or playing the numbers.
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
mmm full open gankfest like AoC? ...no thanks for me
I have to agree with the OP.
But to you peeps who like that stuff, have a ball!!!
Theres been some great post on this subject but I dont really agree with you, OP..
It's been said that this game will be more about skill then anything else.. (i.e. You go to first person when shooting with bow, and have to aim your self.. Also Gravity psychics, which mean you can actually shoot pretty far, if you do it correctly.)
Anyway, I just wanted you guys to check out this page..
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=82111
Its post where they have gathered some Beta First impressions quotes.. and I like the thing about loot..
Its seems like its rather complicated/hard actually.. (I've never played UO but they, The testers, seems to make a lot of comparrisons to it) so unless your ALL alone and get attacked they will be able to Full loot, but not if they get aggroed by mobs, since if they dont unsheate their Weapon, they will practicly be defense less.. and will get killed by them before looting everything.. (like 1 of the quotes say, except it was a NPC guard killing him)
EDIT: I think, as I've read the link more firmly now, actually the more junk your carrying around the more junk the looter has go trough to find some valuable stuff, which will increase time for other players to come or Mobs to agro.
And mostly I think there will be at least a few friendly Souls out there.. At least, If I see someone getting ganked 2+-1 or something like that.. I would definetly jump in from behind and surprise them, giving them one more opponent to think about, which can change the entire outcome of the fight, if they arent focused/organised enough. Then I would simply spread their names to people in the Area so they could be carefull or something like it :P hehe. It could create some really nice situations and hate/love relationships, now I think about it
Its all how you look at it I suppose.. I for one, just checked this game out a few days ago, and I've read and watched some stuff.. So please dont knife me if I am totally off.
I usually restrain myself from answering these kind of post, since they all tend to go into flaming, but not this one.. Its nice
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
This is exactly how Dungeon Siege works. Ever play it?
If you're standing around whacking your friend to max yhour skill, you're playing with numbers and gaming the system, IMO.
Dungeon siege is not an MMO and yes I played the original. Not an appropriate example IMO. Given that you did not reply to the original question is it safe to assume that the answer is no? You have not played UO or SWG? If so, I am just going to suggest that you keep an open mind until you try out DF.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Random pointless pk'ing will kill this game if this is what happens. If there are consequences, depth and a real gamplay reason (e.g. Politics) for PK'ing then this wont be an issue. If the game is massive enough then this may ease tension between people wanting different game experiences.
In eve for example most low sec PK'ing seems to go on just outside high sec space. Rarely has anyone bothered venturing into a quieter system where I am. When they do they often take a shot at me and when I escape they promptly leave. The only real problem was when I accidently entered a system wichih was controlled by a corp. Though I have never been killed once in the 6 or so months I have been in low sec space (by some forward planning and not playing when half asleep). Even had nice chats with a pirate who tried to recruit me
.. unless it was a trap 
Of course there will always be the easy mode WoW kiddies which that find the whole concept of actually thinking and planning a tad to hard. Oh yeah and all this bollocks about a fair fight ... lol if they could stack the odds against there enemy they would do so and they know it !
honustly please tell me a good enough reason for ganking someone? there isnt any this is why its pretty sad when people do this. do you really have that pathetic of a life to sit in front of a computer and basically bully people around on it?
It will make no difference to me if I am ganked. I will be Naked.
Clan Naked
Well you know it isn't always about e peens and griefing... sometimes its just easy to do because people are so stupid and don't take basic precautions. The problem is games like WoW reward even the most stupid player and an idiot can lvl up by mindlessly grinding.
In eve I see so many players wandering around low sec in a crappy cargo ship that I wonder if I should be making some money pirating them.. or at least have a few attempt and see what happens ... and I am essentially a big care bear !
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
I have an open mind. That is not relevant to the topic.
How is the system in Darkfall vastly different from teh system in Dungeon Siege?
I get they are different genres, single player vs MMORPG, but we are discussing the combat system.
The combat systems are the same, yes?
Yes, that is what we are discussing (actually skill system but I assume that is what you meant). However, i am not discussing it outside the overall game because I think it makes a difference.
In a game like WoW or EQ, yes I think that being able to level your toon by sparring with other players would be inappropriate. However, the gameplay in DF will be dramatically different from the EQ-clones. One has to be either sufficiently imaginative or have had the experience of a similar MMO to relate. Even though Dungeon Siege has a similar skill system, the overall experience was nothing like UO or SWG.
Think of it like this, back to the motorcycle example. Say some arbitrary person's need for an automobile is for something that accomodate his whole family and luggage for the weekend trips. When that person is asked about motorcycles, he says that they are stupid because they seat at most two people and can't carry much luggage. This is an unfair criticism because motorcycles serve different purposes. In general seating and cargo capacity for motorcycles are hardly relevant. Such is the case when you compare features between PvE focussed EQ-clones and full PvP skill based sandboxes.
Motorcycle analogy fails.
Raising skill by using skills is raising skills by using skills, no matter how you slice it, no matter whether you put it in a single player or multi player game.
I'm not saying it's the worst system ever, but it's kinda lame IMO.
It's for people that need everything to be literal.