I seem to be one of the only people not having kittens over the station cash system.
It really doesnt bother me, most of the items are just for looks. The rest are pretty much potions that let someone level faster.
What is the big deal, if someone wants to level faster and miss a bunch of the content, so be it.
No you're not the only one. I'm with you. So is Eccoton. And a bunch of others. Most of the people complaining are either people that hate SOE already, and people that don't play the game. Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth.
You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth. You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth. You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
The problem with this is simply.
They want to have their say while not letting others have theirs. Back to the whole us being fanatic fan boys essentially.
Like George bush or not he did have one of the best sayings ever.
"if your not with us, your against us."
I love that saying because it is the most fitting saying ever in regards to the human mindset.
If when you complain about something like item malls and I don't back you 100% that means I am clearly fanatically devoted to SOE.
Hell if you don't like the item mall that's okay, can't please everyone and after playing mmos since legends of kesmai I expect there to be annoyed or pissed off people with any and all patches.
But that doesn't mean you have to become simon cowell and rant about it. The title of this forum post alone shows that it's not critisim, it's not a concern, it's a rant. That's what we need less of on the internet. Anonymoty based rants where anyone who disagrees with you slightly is a troll, newb, fanboy or a more colorful insult that I perfer not to list. lol
Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth. You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
Valid points, but considering who you're replying to, it's a waste of time.
According to Moirae, us who doesn't play EQ2 have nothing to do in this forum section at all. That is, unless we praise everything SOE stands for. She can't see any negative comment without replying to it, usually about how sick and tired she is of hearing about it, how we sound like a broken record, etc. You don't have to leave this thread to find dozens of examples of what I'm talking about. Yes, dozens.
Unfortunately, this makes it very, very hard to debate anything in the EQ2 forum. Because if she doesn't like what she reads, the topic vanishes and the flamewar starts. Just check around for several examples.
Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth. You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
Valid points, but considering who you're replying to, it's a waste of time.
According to Moirae, us who doesn't play EQ2 have nothing to do in this forum section at all. That is, unless we praise everything SOE stands for. She can't see any negative comment without replying to it, usually about how sick and tired she is of hearing about it, how we sound like a broken record, etc. You don't have to leave this thread to find dozens of examples of what I'm talking about. Yes, dozens.
Unfortunately, this makes it very, very hard to debate anything in the EQ2 forum. Because if she doesn't like what she reads, the topic vanishes and the flamewar starts. Just check around for several examples.
I have read Moirae's posts and I do not see your claims about her posts other then she is tired of people hyjacking or making posts who do not even play or ever played EQ2. They claim to love EQ2 but work really hard to kill the game. While I agree with her we have different takes on the "haters" (there is a big difference between constructive criticism and haters). I do not care, they have a right to say what ever they want, even if totally fabricated, in a public forum. I simply do not understand why so many who have no business with SOE feel the need to constantly post about them. Seems like a waste of time to me. The most common reason is they claim to be protecting us with the truth as if we are SOE zombies unable to control our money and give it to them in total ignorance, like a drug addict. That is why so many EQ2 players get defensive. The overall tone is somehow we do not get it.
I made a post about graphic settings in eq2 but a few had to come and attack SOE instead of talking about graphic settings.This kind of thing I find as evidence that they are "haters"since they never talked about graphic settings. I posted my responses here in reguards to this being a "scam" as the title says and was immediately attacked and misquoted more then once, to the point of total fabrications on what I said. I never once attacked any of those who disagree.This is what I have a problem with, not people hating SOE.
People seem to want to think SOE is scamming them. If they believe this, they can bypass any responsibility for their decisions on a game, afterall SOE is a liar and scamming everyone, so I did not waste my time and money on a game I really did not like in the first place. I can just blame it all on SOE. I was a SWG vet and there were plenty of signs SWG was going downhill fast and reasons to leave but people stayed anyways. Then they attack SOE for changing their precious game that 1000s still played and many still love. However, it is not the game the vets loved so those that play do not get it. While public forums are just that, there is more trolling then actual facts about the games. If you come here you need to get use to it. I never go after the "haters" only those that fabricate and misquote what I say. I do this because I want people to know EQ2 is a great game and not a "scam".
Thanks eccoton, thats exactly it. And why I get sick to death of it. Because people can't ever actually answer the questions being asked on this forum without bashing the game. If they don't like it so much, why are they here? Obviously not for any productive and useful reason at all.
Originally posted by eccoton I have read Moirae's posts and I do not see your claims about her posts other then she is tired of people hyjacking or making posts who do not even play or ever played EQ2. They claim to love EQ2 but work really hard to kill the game.
You would have to dig pretty hard through her history to find any post that was not doing one of two things. First just simply posting an I agree with someone that says something positive. The other being her telling someone to shut up and go away. You would be very hard pressed to find anything she posts that actually contributes to the discussion.
I seem to be one of the only people not having kittens over the station cash system.
It really doesnt bother me, most of the items are just for looks. The rest are pretty much potions that let someone level faster.
What is the big deal, if someone wants to level faster and miss a bunch of the content, so be it.
Ask yourself this question Aedhan, where is the line that needs to be crossed for this to become a problem for you personally? Now ask yourself if that is a possibility all things considered.
For the life of me I cannot think of one situation where the answer can believably be no, unless someone would be fine paying every single thing in the game a second time. The president of the company promised something like this would never happen in these games. There is no scenario now where it can be reasonably applied that they will not engage is selling anything they want, because historically they break promises and do things no one thought they ever would (case in point here). There is no promise they can make that has enough merit to be believable. I don't think anyone deep down really believes it will stop here with a few items. Soe didn't introduce this as a one time revenue boost and I think the path is clear to anyone that wants to look at it with open eyes.
The fact is this. These items were once given free and are now only available for additional fees. Resources that were once dedicated to giving free content and game support are now diverted to a project that by its very nature reduces free content and reintroduces the same thing as a pay to play option. Ecconton says this is not a scam, but I fail to see how it is anything but a complete rip off of the customer base. Even though the items currently seem harmless, the precedent is now set and that is the most important aspect of this discussion. Soe wants people to pay them cash to receive rewards for not playing the game on an item by item basis, where those items used to be rewards for actually playing the game... on top of a subscription fee. That sums up station cash in one ugly sentence.
Soe is counting on player apathy to allow this to remain, which is why they are starting slow at first. They learned not to thrust eveything at once as they tried with station exchange.
I didn't feel like quoting because I didn't want to waste space.. But anyway
There is a line, if they start forcing me to pay to get truly useful gear, I and all the other people not offended yet would be outraged.
Right now they are not doing that. They are letting people pay to not play the game quite as much, their problem. They said they would not have this, oh well, that was a lie but I can get over it. If they did start forcing me to use that to enjoy the game there would be major problems. You know what though? I highly doubt that happening. No matter how much people bash the game and SOE, they really do listen to their players. The have the in game survey where they can. If players voice a major discomfort they generally take that into consideration.
They are working on putting in a Fighter revamp, something that *has* been complained about. They are turning the tanks into something more than just another DPSer that can take hits. Currently that is what a tank is looked at for, how much damage can they do. They have the test server where things like the revamp are tried out, by the players. There have been some issues with it, so they are not releasing it with the next game update.
As for the items being offered free before.. Really they weren't. All of the station stuff is new items people can buy to boost the game. The exp potions were always veteran rewards, and still are.
On a happy note, one of the staion items is a house pet that people can purchase, with money being donated to cherity if the do.
There is a line, if they start forcing me to pay to get truly useful gear, I and all the other people not offended yet would be outraged.
Then perhaps you should consider that other people have had their lines crossed and are upset, before you go mocking them. How would you feel if your line was crossed and you posted about it, people mocked you about having kittens over it?
You illustrate my point about these changes to a tee, apathy. The whole mindset of "it doesn't affect me and I don't care about those that it does" all the while ignoring the very clear fact that station cash has made your tolerance limit a very clear and real possibility.
The only thing that makes these items "new" is that they have price tags on them. It isn't like soe hasn't added clothing, potions and pets into the game without microtransactions is it? Why is this some bold never before seen content just because it is withheld from thos who do not ante up extra money? This content was free with subscription prior to this.
I never mocked anyone, just gave my opinion on the station cash situation.
The items are new, they are pets and clothing not in the game before. They are NEW pets, I am not saying pets are a new thing, just these ones.
And they are still giving out pets with the subscriptions, I went out and bought the newest expasnsion and that came with the dire bear that is a pet and then mount. There were never pets with subscriptions before.
The same developers are making the same content now as they were a few months/years back. The only difference is that a portion of this "new" content is no longer added free of charge. Anyone wanting to participate in the full efforts of those same programmers now has to pay an additional fee on an item by item basis. It isn't some drastic departure of creativity that justifies an additional fee to participate. It is simply holding back a portion of the developers efforts and trying to resell it for no other reason than to make more money. There is no net gain to the players.
This is a very bad precedent to ignore, but I am sure soe is counting on people to do that.
The same developers are making the same content now as they were a few months/years back. The only difference is that a portion of this "new" content is no longer added free of charge. Anyone wanting to participate in the full efforts of those same programmers now has to pay an additional fee on an item by item basis. It isn't some drastic departure of creativity that justifies an additional fee to participate. It is simply holding back a portion of the developers efforts and trying to resell it for no other reason than to make more money. There is no net gain to the players.
This is a very bad precedent to ignore, but I am sure soe is counting on people to do that.
Daff you do make fair points. You are not one of the "haters" that talks conspiracy which I do appreciate. However you do continually talk about "content" being denied. I am a collector in EQ2. I have all 5 room houses for all my toons. Each house is jammed packed full of items. For us who enjoy collecting stuff, house items and gear included, EQ2 offers literally 1000's of items. It has taken me 4 years to amass my in game wealth and I am indeed very wealthy in EQ2. The marketplace offers about 2 dozen nonessential items. You use the term "content" as if SOE is denying you items. Well yes they are, you do not get those dozen or so if you do not pay. so they really are only denying you a fraction of 1% of the items in the game that are available. That hardly is denying players content as you suggest. I find it hard to get worked up over a fraction of 1% of items that are available in game.
You also miss my point. You continually suggest we are ignoring this issue and SOE is counting on this. No I am not ignoring it since I am actively purchasing a few of them. SOE is not counting on anyone ignoring this they are counting on people using the item mall. I truly understand you do not like the idea but you seem not to understand some of us like the idea. I been playing EQ2 for over 4 years. I am not caught up in proving I earned and item or bought an item. After 4 years of daily play I got nothing to prove to anyone. My buying a house pet does not diminish my pride in how hard I have work in EQ2 to become a top player. You simply can not buy your way to that level no matter how much money you spend in the item mall. I do not feel SOE is denying me content.
So you say the content equals maybe 1% and isn't a big deal. For sake of discussion lets say that is true. My point still applies to this, just because your personal threshold of tolerance has not been crossed, that doesn't mean it is ok. What if it become 10% or 20%? To me it sounds like you have a limit to what you would accept, so what percentage would it take for you to get worked up?
If that is true, then in principle you agree that this is the wrong direction for a game to go. I can almost read it in your words above. Just because it isn't a big enough problem to hamper you now doesn't mean it is still not a problem and one big enough to drive away a portion of your community as it grows.
The possibility for 20%, 40%, 75%, etc is now on the table. Before anyone tries to say micro transactions will never get that bad in the game think about these two things.
Smed said real money transactions would never be in the everquest games in any way shape or form, yet here we are.
Smed also said he hope to have 50% (timelined to right around now) or more of soe's revenue generated through non subscription fees and up to 90% (timelined over the next three years).
Participating in station cash is in essence ignoring it as I am trying to explain what soe counts on. By that I mean not telling soe to stop what they are doing, because it is taking the game in the wrong direction. Telling people that are upset to be quiet and that it is no big deal is what they count on. It is exactly that type of support that enables soe to behave like this.
Soe flat out lies, sneaks this in without giving players a chance to discuss it, the are charging extra for the same content and people somehow find a way to downplay this, tell people it isn't a big deal and actually reward soe with money for their actions? I just don't see how anyone can think this is a good idea and worth defending, let alone supporting.
As has been pointed out it is all just everyones opinion. Some don't like it, some do, and others just don't really give a damn about it.
I doubt we will see that drastic changes in it that you and others keep doomsaying about. SOE doesn't just add the HUGE changes without getting a player opinion. Smedley knows that some people are angry about it, but I see why it is there. It is a extra little boost to income for the game, a game that does not have the massive income of the multi-million player MMOs on the market.
I have never seen any other major changes added that significantly changed the game in any way added in the past without them getting the opinions of the players.
So you say the content equals maybe 1% and isn't a big deal. For sake of discussion lets say that is true. My point still applies to this, just because your personal threshold of tolerance has not been crossed, that doesn't mean it is ok. What if it become 10% or 20%? To me it sounds like you have a limit to what you would accept, so what percentage would it take for you to get worked up? If that is true, then in principle you agree that this is the wrong direction for a game to go. I can almost read it in your words above. Just because it isn't a big enough problem to hamper you now doesn't mean it is still not a problem and one big enough to drive away a portion of your community as it grows.
The possibility for 20%, 40%, 75%, etc is now on the table. Before anyone tries to say micro transactions will never get that bad in the game think about these two things. Smed said real money transactions would never be in the everquest games in any way shape or form, yet here we are. Smed also said he hope to have 50% (timelined to right around now) or more of soe's revenue generated through non subscription fees and up to 90% (timelined over the next three years).
Participating in station cash is in essence ignoring it as I am trying to explain what soe counts on. By that I mean not telling soe to stop what they are doing, because it is taking the game in the wrong direction. Telling people that are upset to be quiet and that it is no big deal is what they count on. It is exactly that type of support that enables soe to behave like this. Soe flat out lies, sneaks this in without giving players a chance to discuss it, the are charging extra for the same content and people somehow find a way to downplay this, tell people it isn't a big deal and actually reward soe with money for their actions? I just don't see how anyone can think this is a good idea and worth defending, let alone supporting.
You are not reading my words, you are inserting your feelings not mine. That is why I say over and over you really are not addressing my on this issue. I used less then 1% to conter you claim about "content". You still do not accept there is not line to cross for me. I like the idea of item malls you refuse to accept this. I will leave the game when I am no longer enjoying it, it is that simple. I accept your words and feelings on this issue but you do not seem to be able to accept mine. I do not talk or react to "what ifs". I am enjoying EQ2 and the item mall. Someday my time will be done in EQ2 and I will move on. No magic line that SOE will cross, I do not wait around for that moment. I play a great game, I use the item mall. Why is that so hard for you to accept? I am not ignoring the item mall I like it. EQ2 is only a game I do not invest the same emotion as you do, for me it is just a game. If the game changes in way I no longer enjoy I leave.
As has been pointed out it is all just everyones opinion. Some don't like it, some do, and others just don't really give a damn about it. I doubt we will see that drastic changes in it that you and others keep doomsaying about. SOE doesn't just add the HUGE changes without getting a player opinion. Smedley knows that some people are angry about it, but I see why it is there. It is a extra little boost to income for the game, a game that does not have the massive income of the multi-million player MMOs on the market.
I have never seen any other major changes added that significantly changed the game in any way added in the past without them getting the opinions of the players.
You can't say things like that and be taken seriously. Adding micro transaction sales to a subscription game is a huge change. Soe added this WITHOUT getting player opinions. It was stealth patched into the game without any prior notice.
Ok Ecco, I get that you like the item mall. I am not denying that to you and it isn't my intent. However that doesn't have much effect on the subject. I'm not trying to get you to dislike it. Your enjoyment doesn't make a wrong a right or visa versa.
In a post above you said to me
"You use the term "content" as if SOE is denying you items. Well yes they are, you do not get those dozen or so if you do not pay. so they really are only denying you a fraction of 1% of the items in the game that are available. That hardly is denying players content as you suggest. I find it hard to get worked up over a fraction of 1% of items that are available in game."
To that I respond, at what percentage is it ok to get worked up? What is the percentage when you deem it acceptable to complain about this? By that very statement you admit that the actions of soe indeed unacceptable.
Lying to customers is bad.
Removing free content only to put a price tag on it, doesn't serve the customers interests.
Not considering customers opinions when you continually promise to listen is bad.
The only things I head from people supporing station cash is basically: It doesn't bother me so I don't care. Everything either ignores the negative actions of the company or shows complete indifference to those that are rightly upset.
This net result is rewarding bad business with money and watching silently as more people leave as a result of yet another soe bombshell.
The only things I head from people supporing station cash is basically: It doesn't bother me so I don't care. Everything either ignores the negative actions of the company or shows complete indifference to those that are rightly upset.
To those that will comment on Daff's and mine back and forth. This is actually a very important topic to everyone in mmos. What SOE is doing regardless of the outcome is exploring how the item mall will work and it's place in mmos, especially with western/American audiences. I have written about this in more detail before so I do not want to get into it again. If you are a console user with a PS3 you will better understand this if you use Home. Sony also has had big losses in 2008 so expect more decisions you might object to in regards to their product. All their future mmos will be on console. These item malls will be more and more common and you will see many subscription games using them. This will happen whether you agree with the concept or not. This is why the topic is important and interesting.
It has been mentioned this is wrong since SOE did not even ask it's customers what they thought. I am not aware of how SOE test markets an idea so I will not make assumptions about this. However, why do you feel SOE needed to discuss with you this change? This question is actually the core of this agrument not the item mall itself. Despite the time and emotion invested, uniquely to mmorpgs, they are owned by their developers not the player base. SOE's use of item mall may indeed backfire on them with EQ2 but EQ2 is not their future, especailly on PC. As a huge fan of EQ2 and PC mmos, I am disapointed by this reality but it is fact. However I am also a user of the PS3 and Xbox 360. I also use Home and have used the item mall there, so I am also interested to see how mmos develope on consoles.
SOE is making risky decisions and their results are far from certain. A few that have expressed their dislike about this talk about it as if is actually a moral issue. There are emotions arisen on this issue that seem unwarranted. Both side of the argument do this. So in regards to this being a "scam" people will never agree on this, since for one side it seems to be a moral issue and the other a business issue. That divide will eventually determine whether SOE's unexpected and questionable business decisions will be successful.
The only things I head from people supporing station cash is basically: It doesn't bother me so I don't care. Everything either ignores the negative actions of the company or shows complete indifference to those that are rightly upset.
It has been mentioned this is wrong since SOE did not even ask it's customers what they thought. I am not aware of how SOE test markets an idea so I will not make assumptions about this. However, why do you feel SOE needed to discuss with you this change? This question is actually the core of this agrument not the item mall itself. Despite the time and emotion invested, uniquely to mmorpgs, they are owned by their developers not the player base.
For starters! They needed to discuss this with the playerbase so we could have saved us money on buying the TSO expansion!
This whole Cashshop scheme was carefully planned to be launched shortly after the TSO expansion release to maximise their profits.
As they know that if they had communicated the Cash Shop, that it would have hurt their TSO expansion sales a lot!
Next to that, they did it this way, with the idea, that people just spend 40 bucks on an expansion, so they won't cancel and continue playing and with a slight hope they will forget about it.
And if you cannot see the truth in all this and how it has been done. Well, then I guess there is no point in discussing this any further then is it?
Because you are right. This whole discussion is indeed not just the Cash Shop itself, but more about how SOE operates bad bussiness practices, lack of respect towards their paying customers and thus how all this has been done.
For starters! They needed to discuss this with the playerbase so we could have saved us money on buying the TSO expansion! This whole Cashshop scheme was carefully planned to be launched shortly after the TSO expansion release to maximise their profits. As they know that if they had communicated the Cash Shop, that it would have hurt their TSO expansion sales a lot! Next to that, they did it this way, with the idea, that people just spend 40 bucks on an expansion, so they won't cancel and continue playing and with a slight hope they will forget about it. And if you cannot see the truth in all this and how it has been done. Well, then I guess there is no point in discussing this any further then is it?
Because you are right. This whole discussion is indeed not just the Cash Shop itself, but more about how SOE operates bad bussiness practices, lack of respect towards their paying customers and thus how all this has been done.
I clearly see the "truth" , you are right SOE decisions are done to maximize their profits. I have never felt disrespected. I was disappointed by NGE/SWG hardly disrespected. Outside of SWG I have had nothing but postive experiences with SOE that is why I still pay to play their games.
Just to hold off any blind SOE fanboisms I recieve. I also currently pay Blizzard and Mythic as well.
For starters! They needed to discuss this with the playerbase so we could have saved us money on buying the TSO expansion! This whole Cashshop scheme was carefully planned to be launched shortly after the TSO expansion release to maximise their profits. As they know that if they had communicated the Cash Shop, that it would have hurt their TSO expansion sales a lot! Next to that, they did it this way, with the idea, that people just spend 40 bucks on an expansion, so they won't cancel and continue playing and with a slight hope they will forget about it. And if you cannot see the truth in all this and how it has been done. Well, then I guess there is no point in discussing this any further then is it?
Because you are right. This whole discussion is indeed not just the Cash Shop itself, but more about how SOE operates bad bussiness practices, lack of respect towards their paying customers and thus how all this has been done.
I clearly see the "truth" , you are right SOE decisions are done to maximize their profits. I have never felt disrespected. I was disappointed by NGE/SWG hardly disrespected. Outside of SWG I have had nothing but postive experiences with SOE that is why I still pay to play their games.
Just to hold off any blind SOE fanboisms I recieve. I also currently pay Blizzard and Mythic as well.
I personally don't care if SoE made a MMO that paid me to play it I would not. I seen what this mega corporation is capable of on November 15th 2005 which was outrageous. I couldn't believe they did the one thing you never do, change the core mechanics of a game that is successful and hauling in massive revenue. They however still went against all the principles that any good game developing company would frown upon.
What they are doing to your game EQII sounds like something right up their alley so im not overly surprised. Just quit while your ahead and stop paying the devil.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Comments
I seem to be one of the only people not having kittens over the station cash system.
It really doesnt bother me, most of the items are just for looks. The rest are pretty much potions that let someone level faster.
What is the big deal, if someone wants to level faster and miss a bunch of the content, so be it.
No you're not the only one. I'm with you. So is Eccoton. And a bunch of others. Most of the people complaining are either people that hate SOE already, and people that don't play the game. Because, you see, this is the only game in existance where haters STILL prowl its forums just to bash the game and anyone who likes it. It doesnt happen with any other game, just this one. Its completely nuts, but its also the truth.
You don't see people in the WoW forum, or the Villians and Heroes forums, or the DAoC forums, or any of the others for that matter, who just simply want to bash the game not once but over and over and over and over and over again when they don't even play it. You just see it here.
I'm with you guys.
I'm actually going to be re subbing as soon as I can figure out my money situation.
and honestly I do have a feeling that WoW and AO have people that don't play the game but still bash it.
It's just the NGE set the standard for post cancelation bashing.
Just remember if you defend SOE your a Fanatic and a SOEFanboi. But if you fanatically bash the company you are some how righteous and justified.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
The problem with this is simply.
They want to have their say while not letting others have theirs. Back to the whole us being fanatic fan boys essentially.
Like George bush or not he did have one of the best sayings ever.
"if your not with us, your against us."
I love that saying because it is the most fitting saying ever in regards to the human mindset.
If when you complain about something like item malls and I don't back you 100% that means I am clearly fanatically devoted to SOE.
Hell if you don't like the item mall that's okay, can't please everyone and after playing mmos since legends of kesmai I expect there to be annoyed or pissed off people with any and all patches.
But that doesn't mean you have to become simon cowell and rant about it. The title of this forum post alone shows that it's not critisim, it's not a concern, it's a rant. That's what we need less of on the internet. Anonymoty based rants where anyone who disagrees with you slightly is a troll, newb, fanboy or a more colorful insult that I perfer not to list. lol
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
Valid points, but considering who you're replying to, it's a waste of time.
According to Moirae, us who doesn't play EQ2 have nothing to do in this forum section at all. That is, unless we praise everything SOE stands for. She can't see any negative comment without replying to it, usually about how sick and tired she is of hearing about it, how we sound like a broken record, etc. You don't have to leave this thread to find dozens of examples of what I'm talking about. Yes, dozens.
Unfortunately, this makes it very, very hard to debate anything in the EQ2 forum. Because if she doesn't like what she reads, the topic vanishes and the flamewar starts. Just check around for several examples.
You've obviously never visited the SWG forums then.
On the subject of people who don't play posting here, you might be surprised to know that there are people actually interested in the MMORPG scene in general and also those who used to play EQ2 and like to keep up with the current news. Events such as item malls becoming part of pay-to-play games are of interest to players in general as an indication of where the market is heading, and a controversial topic at best. It's hardly surprising people want to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they are a current subscriber or not. Perhaps you should stop bashing these people and let them have their say.
Valid points, but considering who you're replying to, it's a waste of time.
According to Moirae, us who doesn't play EQ2 have nothing to do in this forum section at all. That is, unless we praise everything SOE stands for. She can't see any negative comment without replying to it, usually about how sick and tired she is of hearing about it, how we sound like a broken record, etc. You don't have to leave this thread to find dozens of examples of what I'm talking about. Yes, dozens.
Unfortunately, this makes it very, very hard to debate anything in the EQ2 forum. Because if she doesn't like what she reads, the topic vanishes and the flamewar starts. Just check around for several examples.
I have read Moirae's posts and I do not see your claims about her posts other then she is tired of people hyjacking or making posts who do not even play or ever played EQ2. They claim to love EQ2 but work really hard to kill the game. While I agree with her we have different takes on the "haters" (there is a big difference between constructive criticism and haters). I do not care, they have a right to say what ever they want, even if totally fabricated, in a public forum. I simply do not understand why so many who have no business with SOE feel the need to constantly post about them. Seems like a waste of time to me. The most common reason is they claim to be protecting us with the truth as if we are SOE zombies unable to control our money and give it to them in total ignorance, like a drug addict. That is why so many EQ2 players get defensive. The overall tone is somehow we do not get it.
I made a post about graphic settings in eq2 but a few had to come and attack SOE instead of talking about graphic settings.This kind of thing I find as evidence that they are "haters"since they never talked about graphic settings. I posted my responses here in reguards to this being a "scam" as the title says and was immediately attacked and misquoted more then once, to the point of total fabrications on what I said. I never once attacked any of those who disagree.This is what I have a problem with, not people hating SOE.
People seem to want to think SOE is scamming them. If they believe this, they can bypass any responsibility for their decisions on a game, afterall SOE is a liar and scamming everyone, so I did not waste my time and money on a game I really did not like in the first place. I can just blame it all on SOE. I was a SWG vet and there were plenty of signs SWG was going downhill fast and reasons to leave but people stayed anyways. Then they attack SOE for changing their precious game that 1000s still played and many still love. However, it is not the game the vets loved so those that play do not get it. While public forums are just that, there is more trolling then actual facts about the games. If you come here you need to get use to it. I never go after the "haters" only those that fabricate and misquote what I say. I do this because I want people to know EQ2 is a great game and not a "scam".
Thanks eccoton, thats exactly it. And why I get sick to death of it. Because people can't ever actually answer the questions being asked on this forum without bashing the game. If they don't like it so much, why are they here? Obviously not for any productive and useful reason at all.
You would have to dig pretty hard through her history to find any post that was not doing one of two things. First just simply posting an I agree with someone that says something positive. The other being her telling someone to shut up and go away. You would be very hard pressed to find anything she posts that actually contributes to the discussion.
Ask yourself this question Aedhan, where is the line that needs to be crossed for this to become a problem for you personally? Now ask yourself if that is a possibility all things considered.
For the life of me I cannot think of one situation where the answer can believably be no, unless someone would be fine paying every single thing in the game a second time. The president of the company promised something like this would never happen in these games. There is no scenario now where it can be reasonably applied that they will not engage is selling anything they want, because historically they break promises and do things no one thought they ever would (case in point here). There is no promise they can make that has enough merit to be believable. I don't think anyone deep down really believes it will stop here with a few items. Soe didn't introduce this as a one time revenue boost and I think the path is clear to anyone that wants to look at it with open eyes.
The fact is this. These items were once given free and are now only available for additional fees. Resources that were once dedicated to giving free content and game support are now diverted to a project that by its very nature reduces free content and reintroduces the same thing as a pay to play option. Ecconton says this is not a scam, but I fail to see how it is anything but a complete rip off of the customer base. Even though the items currently seem harmless, the precedent is now set and that is the most important aspect of this discussion. Soe wants people to pay them cash to receive rewards for not playing the game on an item by item basis, where those items used to be rewards for actually playing the game... on top of a subscription fee. That sums up station cash in one ugly sentence.
Soe is counting on player apathy to allow this to remain, which is why they are starting slow at first. They learned not to thrust eveything at once as they tried with station exchange.
I didn't feel like quoting because I didn't want to waste space.. But anyway
There is a line, if they start forcing me to pay to get truly useful gear, I and all the other people not offended yet would be outraged.
Right now they are not doing that. They are letting people pay to not play the game quite as much, their problem. They said they would not have this, oh well, that was a lie but I can get over it. If they did start forcing me to use that to enjoy the game there would be major problems. You know what though? I highly doubt that happening. No matter how much people bash the game and SOE, they really do listen to their players. The have the in game survey where they can. If players voice a major discomfort they generally take that into consideration.
They are working on putting in a Fighter revamp, something that *has* been complained about. They are turning the tanks into something more than just another DPSer that can take hits. Currently that is what a tank is looked at for, how much damage can they do. They have the test server where things like the revamp are tried out, by the players. There have been some issues with it, so they are not releasing it with the next game update.
As for the items being offered free before.. Really they weren't. All of the station stuff is new items people can buy to boost the game. The exp potions were always veteran rewards, and still are.
On a happy note, one of the staion items is a house pet that people can purchase, with money being donated to cherity if the do.
Then perhaps you should consider that other people have had their lines crossed and are upset, before you go mocking them. How would you feel if your line was crossed and you posted about it, people mocked you about having kittens over it?
You illustrate my point about these changes to a tee, apathy. The whole mindset of "it doesn't affect me and I don't care about those that it does" all the while ignoring the very clear fact that station cash has made your tolerance limit a very clear and real possibility.
The only thing that makes these items "new" is that they have price tags on them. It isn't like soe hasn't added clothing, potions and pets into the game without microtransactions is it? Why is this some bold never before seen content just because it is withheld from thos who do not ante up extra money? This content was free with subscription prior to this.
I never mocked anyone, just gave my opinion on the station cash situation.
The items are new, they are pets and clothing not in the game before. They are NEW pets, I am not saying pets are a new thing, just these ones.
And they are still giving out pets with the subscriptions, I went out and bought the newest expasnsion and that came with the dire bear that is a pet and then mount. There were never pets with subscriptions before.
The same developers are making the same content now as they were a few months/years back. The only difference is that a portion of this "new" content is no longer added free of charge. Anyone wanting to participate in the full efforts of those same programmers now has to pay an additional fee on an item by item basis. It isn't some drastic departure of creativity that justifies an additional fee to participate. It is simply holding back a portion of the developers efforts and trying to resell it for no other reason than to make more money. There is no net gain to the players.
This is a very bad precedent to ignore, but I am sure soe is counting on people to do that.
Daff you do make fair points. You are not one of the "haters" that talks conspiracy which I do appreciate. However you do continually talk about "content" being denied. I am a collector in EQ2. I have all 5 room houses for all my toons. Each house is jammed packed full of items. For us who enjoy collecting stuff, house items and gear included, EQ2 offers literally 1000's of items. It has taken me 4 years to amass my in game wealth and I am indeed very wealthy in EQ2. The marketplace offers about 2 dozen nonessential items. You use the term "content" as if SOE is denying you items. Well yes they are, you do not get those dozen or so if you do not pay. so they really are only denying you a fraction of 1% of the items in the game that are available. That hardly is denying players content as you suggest. I find it hard to get worked up over a fraction of 1% of items that are available in game.
You also miss my point. You continually suggest we are ignoring this issue and SOE is counting on this. No I am not ignoring it since I am actively purchasing a few of them. SOE is not counting on anyone ignoring this they are counting on people using the item mall. I truly understand you do not like the idea but you seem not to understand some of us like the idea. I been playing EQ2 for over 4 years. I am not caught up in proving I earned and item or bought an item. After 4 years of daily play I got nothing to prove to anyone. My buying a house pet does not diminish my pride in how hard I have work in EQ2 to become a top player. You simply can not buy your way to that level no matter how much money you spend in the item mall. I do not feel SOE is denying me content.
So you say the content equals maybe 1% and isn't a big deal. For sake of discussion lets say that is true. My point still applies to this, just because your personal threshold of tolerance has not been crossed, that doesn't mean it is ok. What if it become 10% or 20%? To me it sounds like you have a limit to what you would accept, so what percentage would it take for you to get worked up?
If that is true, then in principle you agree that this is the wrong direction for a game to go. I can almost read it in your words above. Just because it isn't a big enough problem to hamper you now doesn't mean it is still not a problem and one big enough to drive away a portion of your community as it grows.
The possibility for 20%, 40%, 75%, etc is now on the table. Before anyone tries to say micro transactions will never get that bad in the game think about these two things.
Smed said real money transactions would never be in the everquest games in any way shape or form, yet here we are.
Smed also said he hope to have 50% (timelined to right around now) or more of soe's revenue generated through non subscription fees and up to 90% (timelined over the next three years).
Participating in station cash is in essence ignoring it as I am trying to explain what soe counts on. By that I mean not telling soe to stop what they are doing, because it is taking the game in the wrong direction. Telling people that are upset to be quiet and that it is no big deal is what they count on. It is exactly that type of support that enables soe to behave like this.
Soe flat out lies, sneaks this in without giving players a chance to discuss it, the are charging extra for the same content and people somehow find a way to downplay this, tell people it isn't a big deal and actually reward soe with money for their actions? I just don't see how anyone can think this is a good idea and worth defending, let alone supporting.
I heardly see using it as ignoring it.
As has been pointed out it is all just everyones opinion. Some don't like it, some do, and others just don't really give a damn about it.
I doubt we will see that drastic changes in it that you and others keep doomsaying about. SOE doesn't just add the HUGE changes without getting a player opinion. Smedley knows that some people are angry about it, but I see why it is there. It is a extra little boost to income for the game, a game that does not have the massive income of the multi-million player MMOs on the market.
I have never seen any other major changes added that significantly changed the game in any way added in the past without them getting the opinions of the players.
You are not reading my words, you are inserting your feelings not mine. That is why I say over and over you really are not addressing my on this issue. I used less then 1% to conter you claim about "content". You still do not accept there is not line to cross for me. I like the idea of item malls you refuse to accept this. I will leave the game when I am no longer enjoying it, it is that simple. I accept your words and feelings on this issue but you do not seem to be able to accept mine. I do not talk or react to "what ifs". I am enjoying EQ2 and the item mall. Someday my time will be done in EQ2 and I will move on. No magic line that SOE will cross, I do not wait around for that moment. I play a great game, I use the item mall. Why is that so hard for you to accept? I am not ignoring the item mall I like it. EQ2 is only a game I do not invest the same emotion as you do, for me it is just a game. If the game changes in way I no longer enjoy I leave.
You can't say things like that and be taken seriously. Adding micro transaction sales to a subscription game is a huge change. Soe added this WITHOUT getting player opinions. It was stealth patched into the game without any prior notice.
Ok Ecco, I get that you like the item mall. I am not denying that to you and it isn't my intent. However that doesn't have much effect on the subject. I'm not trying to get you to dislike it. Your enjoyment doesn't make a wrong a right or visa versa.
In a post above you said to me
"You use the term "content" as if SOE is denying you items. Well yes they are, you do not get those dozen or so if you do not pay. so they really are only denying you a fraction of 1% of the items in the game that are available. That hardly is denying players content as you suggest. I find it hard to get worked up over a fraction of 1% of items that are available in game."
To that I respond, at what percentage is it ok to get worked up? What is the percentage when you deem it acceptable to complain about this? By that very statement you admit that the actions of soe indeed unacceptable.
Lying to customers is bad.
Removing free content only to put a price tag on it, doesn't serve the customers interests.
Not considering customers opinions when you continually promise to listen is bad.
The only things I head from people supporing station cash is basically: It doesn't bother me so I don't care. Everything either ignores the negative actions of the company or shows complete indifference to those that are rightly upset.
This net result is rewarding bad business with money and watching silently as more people leave as a result of yet another soe bombshell.
To those that will comment on Daff's and mine back and forth. This is actually a very important topic to everyone in mmos. What SOE is doing regardless of the outcome is exploring how the item mall will work and it's place in mmos, especially with western/American audiences. I have written about this in more detail before so I do not want to get into it again. If you are a console user with a PS3 you will better understand this if you use Home. Sony also has had big losses in 2008 so expect more decisions you might object to in regards to their product. All their future mmos will be on console. These item malls will be more and more common and you will see many subscription games using them. This will happen whether you agree with the concept or not. This is why the topic is important and interesting.
It has been mentioned this is wrong since SOE did not even ask it's customers what they thought. I am not aware of how SOE test markets an idea so I will not make assumptions about this. However, why do you feel SOE needed to discuss with you this change? This question is actually the core of this agrument not the item mall itself. Despite the time and emotion invested, uniquely to mmorpgs, they are owned by their developers not the player base. SOE's use of item mall may indeed backfire on them with EQ2 but EQ2 is not their future, especailly on PC. As a huge fan of EQ2 and PC mmos, I am disapointed by this reality but it is fact. However I am also a user of the PS3 and Xbox 360. I also use Home and have used the item mall there, so I am also interested to see how mmos develope on consoles.
SOE is making risky decisions and their results are far from certain. A few that have expressed their dislike about this talk about it as if is actually a moral issue. There are emotions arisen on this issue that seem unwarranted. Both side of the argument do this. So in regards to this being a "scam" people will never agree on this, since for one side it seems to be a moral issue and the other a business issue. That divide will eventually determine whether SOE's unexpected and questionable business decisions will be successful.
It has been mentioned this is wrong since SOE did not even ask it's customers what they thought. I am not aware of how SOE test markets an idea so I will not make assumptions about this. However, why do you feel SOE needed to discuss with you this change? This question is actually the core of this agrument not the item mall itself. Despite the time and emotion invested, uniquely to mmorpgs, they are owned by their developers not the player base.
For starters! They needed to discuss this with the playerbase so we could have saved us money on buying the TSO expansion!
This whole Cashshop scheme was carefully planned to be launched shortly after the TSO expansion release to maximise their profits.
As they know that if they had communicated the Cash Shop, that it would have hurt their TSO expansion sales a lot!
Next to that, they did it this way, with the idea, that people just spend 40 bucks on an expansion, so they won't cancel and continue playing and with a slight hope they will forget about it.
And if you cannot see the truth in all this and how it has been done. Well, then I guess there is no point in discussing this any further then is it?
Because you are right. This whole discussion is indeed not just the Cash Shop itself, but more about how SOE operates bad bussiness practices, lack of respect towards their paying customers and thus how all this has been done.
I clearly see the "truth" , you are right SOE decisions are done to maximize their profits. I have never felt disrespected. I was disappointed by NGE/SWG hardly disrespected. Outside of SWG I have had nothing but postive experiences with SOE that is why I still pay to play their games.
Just to hold off any blind SOE fanboisms I recieve. I also currently pay Blizzard and Mythic as well.
I clearly see the "truth" , you are right SOE decisions are done to maximize their profits. I have never felt disrespected. I was disappointed by NGE/SWG hardly disrespected. Outside of SWG I have had nothing but postive experiences with SOE that is why I still pay to play their games.
Just to hold off any blind SOE fanboisms I recieve. I also currently pay Blizzard and Mythic as well.
Exactly
I personally don't care if SoE made a MMO that paid me to play it I would not. I seen what this mega corporation is capable of on November 15th 2005 which was outrageous. I couldn't believe they did the one thing you never do, change the core mechanics of a game that is successful and hauling in massive revenue. They however still went against all the principles that any good game developing company would frown upon.
What they are doing to your game EQII sounds like something right up their alley so im not overly surprised. Just quit while your ahead and stop paying the devil.