I don't think WAR flopped. It's a PvP-oriented game, the developers have been stating that for years. I didn't expect any major PvE elements at all.
It's the 2nd highest user-rated game on MMORPG.com, so I don't even know why people say "WAR flopped" on this site. But people have their opinions.
My opinion is that WAR was a great game at launch. Not many P2P MMOs have "good" launches. Sure there are flaws in WAR, but have you seen or been around during WOW's first year? Simular problems were present and it took numerous patches to fix WOW up to be as great as it is today.
To Crybabies: Uhm...if a game pisses you off, don't play it - duh. To Crybabies - Part 2: If you want a game to suit all your needs, start off by going to college to become a Game Designer. Emo User Award: busdriver, for his love of Britney Spears - The Prize - Winning Posts
personally i did not enjoy warhammer as i LOVE the books and the universe and that game is nothing like it at all. It is (and i have heard this quoted many times) a dark and gritty universe filled with horror and bloodshed. I liked the look of the very early Warhammer online (from a mag in 06, or maybe 05, i forge) and it looked very gritty and sinister.
the reality was i got some cartoony bright cheery world and very little warhammer.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I don't think WAR flopped. It's a PvP-oriented game, the developers have been stating that for years. I didn't expect any major PvE elements at all. It's the 2nd highest user-rated game on MMORPG.com, so I don't even know why people say "WAR flopped" on this site. But people have their opinions. My opinion is that WAR was a great game at launch. Not many P2P MMOs have "good" launches. Sure there are flaws in WAR, but have you seen or been around during WOW's first year? Simular problems were present and it took numerous patches to fix WOW up to be as great as it is today.
Problem is that WoW launched in a time when there wasn't that much of competition out there.
Most people these days aren't patient enough anymore nor crazy enough anymore to pay to play beta and pray they manage to fix the game in a year or so.
People rather go back to their old games and wait for the next MMO to come along in a hope it will be better.
Game rating on MMORPG is a joke. Remember Vanguard? Remember Age of Conan? Enough said.
Everyone knows WAR is a PVP game. But what PVP is left in WAR when open RvR is flawed and a performance nightmare??
You can do the same Scenario just that many times, before you get bored out of your skull and just quit the game!
It's the same with Tier 4 open RvR. The only thing that happens day in day out... is BO and Keep swapping for gear! As it's appearently more fun and rewarding, then actually engaging in battle and turn your gameplay into a slideshow with frequent disconnects!
On most servers people don't even manage to lock down enough zones to open up Fortress Sieging due to population issues.
And the servers that do manage, crash the Tier 4 zones or even the whole server when attempting a Fortress Siege.
And if they manage to keep the Zone running, it will be one big CC mess and Slideshow with people constantly disconnecting left and right or just logging off out of frustration!
These days you only get one chance and one chance only! And that is at launch! And you better deliver and appearantly they didn't!
They should have tested their main hyped feature: Largescale Tier 4 RvR and the VP system through and through in Closed Beta, to make sure it works, is fun and lagfree.
They didn't and so failed to deliver! And so WAR did flop! Pure and simple! As their main hyped feature is flawed, not fun and not working and above all a performance nightmare.
Just have a look at the current server populations (especially here in the EU). It's just sad.
My opinion is: Generally speaking, it tried to do stuff that other games did better.
I agree with this. While it's probably a bit over-simplistic, it's still probably the biggest factor, in my opinion.
I will say that I don't, however, consider the game to be a "flop." It's just not as massive of a success as what most expected.
There are other factors that have been mentioned that also, in my opinion, played in to the slow bleed of players leaving.....server pop issues, being one. And the fact that Jeff actually stated, at one point, that they were making "a game" not a "world," SCREAMS problem to me, when you're making what's supposed to be an MMORPG. This is why I have stated MANY times that WAR is NOT an MMORPG, but rather an MMOPVPG. If you are not immersed in a virtual "world," it's very hard to have much a sense of the RPG aspect of a game. With this genre of games, I believe making a "world" is very very important and cannot be separated from the "making a game" part of the equation.
My opinion is: Generally speaking, it tried to do stuff that other games did better.
I agree with this. While it's probably a bit over-simplistic, it's still probably the biggest factor, in my opinion.
I will say that I don't, however, consider the game to be a "flop." It's just not as massive of a success as what most expected.
There are other factors that have been mentioned that also, in my opinion, played in to the slow bleed of players leaving.....server pop issues, being one. And the fact that Jeff actually stated, at one point, that they were making "a game" not a "world," SCREAMS problem to me, when you're making what's supposed to be an MMORPG. This is why I have stated MANY times that WAR is NOT an MMORPG, but rather an MMOPVPG. If you are not immersed in a virtual "world," it's very hard to have much a sense of the RPG aspect of a game. With this genre of games, I believe making a "world" is very very important and cannot be separated from the "making a game" part of the equation.
Regarding what the other games did better, I for one dont blame them for bringing elements from WoW and adding a layer of their own on top, because the settings are so similar they work just fine for me, what they failed tho was in addressing the end game issue and server pop quickly as mentioned above.
I was actually under the impression that War has only flopped in the EU (due to GoA). The US version from what i have read has been a success, as a success standard is taken at this present time, It does not mean it instantly has to become #1 or even #2.
Maybe it's already been said, but it lacks direction. Players too spread out doing too many things. They tried to make it appeal to everyone, and hit a point of diminishing returns.
The problem with this statement is that WoW wasn't perfect at launch. I seem to remember them completely scrapping Ironforge and having lag issues and CTDs just like every other MMO that I've played. Fanboys always think WoW is perfect, and right now it is VERY polished, but it's had a helluva long time to get to that point and countless patches and updates. WoW was NOT perfect at launch, sorry to break that news to you.
And the problem with this is that even though it wasn't perfect on release, Wow was different and genre changing enough that MOST people who bought it stuck with it. It had low specs to run, simple to follow questlines, easy interface, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. We do know very few games are released perfect at launch but WoW didn't make people run for the hills because of this.
Haha - actually WoW did have a large group of people who didn't take to the game right off the bat. There is attrition in every game. People aren't running for the hills in WAR necessarily. I understand that you probably are busy playing WoW at this time and could never possibly fathom that your game had problems at launch as well, but once mommy lets you back on the computer you should look it up. WAR is not dead (EU has problems due to GOA, but not because of the game) and WoW had problems at launch also. Nobody is running for the hills. That's funny.
The problem with this statement is that WoW wasn't perfect at launch. I seem to remember them completely scrapping Ironforge and having lag issues and CTDs just like every other MMO that I've played. Fanboys always think WoW is perfect, and right now it is VERY polished, but it's had a helluva long time to get to that point and countless patches and updates. WoW was NOT perfect at launch, sorry to break that news to you.
And the problem with this is that even though it wasn't perfect on release, Wow was different and genre changing enough that MOST people who bought it stuck with it. It had low specs to run, simple to follow questlines, easy interface, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. We do know very few games are released perfect at launch but WoW didn't make people run for the hills because of this.
Haha - actually WoW did have a large group of people who didn't take to the game right off the bat. There is attrition in every game. People aren't running for the hills in WAR necessarily. I understand that you probably are busy playing WoW at this time and could never possibly fathom that your game had problems at launch as well, but once mommy lets you back on the computer you should look it up. WAR is not dead (EU has problems due to GOA, but not because of the game) and WoW had problems at launch also. Nobody is running for the hills. That's funny.
Slight difference here if you're gonna compare to WoW. WoW topped the sales charts for the next few years. WAR dropped off after 2-3 weeks. Attrition isn't bad when you're replacing subscribers but for WAR that's something that can only be guessed at yet for WOW it was clear as day.
Tier 4 Open RvR has hardly been tested at all. It's been acknowledged by many beta testers and it now starts to show and will be the downfal of WAR! The most important, most hyped feature of WAR! If they had tested this thoroughly in Closed Beta in a much earlier state with enough people for lets say 2 months at least. Then they would have discovered the flaws in Keep / Fortress designs and their performance issues! They would have discovered the excessive CC issues (also adding to the performance issues. especially inside T4 keeps).
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
Tier 4 Open RvR has hardly been tested at all. It's been acknowledged by many beta testers and it now starts to show and will be the downfal of WAR! The most important, most hyped feature of WAR! If they had tested this thoroughly in Closed Beta in a much earlier state with enough people for lets say 2 months at least. Then they would have discovered the flaws in Keep / Fortress designs and their performance issues! They would have discovered the excessive CC issues (also adding to the performance issues. especially inside T4 keeps).
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
I am not talking about the really boring PVE grind in WAR. The most boring PVE experience ever.
I am talking about the boring static linear open RvR! It's just a mere shadow and complete joke compaired to how open RvR in DAoC was! Mind you it has come from the same studio as WAR!
If you have defended one keep. If you have sieged one keep. Then you have done them all.
If you have defended one BO. If you have sieged one BO. Then you have done them all.
It's all the same. There is only one tactic for keep defense. There is only one tactic for Keep Siege.
The whole Open RvR in WAR feels like a mere afterthought rushed into the game at the end of closed beta. Seeing how bugged the VP system is, how buggy some of the keeps were and how horrible Fortress Sieging is ( and I am gonna hold my breath in how the actual City Sieging and King encounters are going to be... if it ever comes to that one day at all)!
Seeing how many Scenarios there are and how polished they felt right at release, proves more my point, that their primary focus was to chase people into small instanced PvP maps right from the start!
Not to mention the excessive amount of XP and Renown you get in Scenarios, compaired to PVE and Open RvR!
*If Siege weapons could be placed and moved around everywhere on the RvR lake
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Keep layouts accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each requiring their own specific tactics.
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Battle Objectives accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each having their own merrits and requiring specific tactics and benefits.
*If capturing a zone, even in Tier 1 or Tier 2 or Tier 3 actually had any REAL effect on the game world and the WAR effort.
Then WAR would be really WAR and RvR actually having a true meaning! The game would have been actually fun, dynamic, non-linear and much higher replayability on the longrun.
You know.... more in the lines of how DAoC origins used to be. Picking out what was the good stuff. Something like that. Like walls that could be teared down, siege weapons being placed anywhere you wanted, etc.
Tier 4 Open RvR has hardly been tested at all. It's been acknowledged by many beta testers and it now starts to show and will be the downfal of WAR! The most important, most hyped feature of WAR! If they had tested this thoroughly in Closed Beta in a much earlier state with enough people for lets say 2 months at least. Then they would have discovered the flaws in Keep / Fortress designs and their performance issues! They would have discovered the excessive CC issues (also adding to the performance issues. especially inside T4 keeps).
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
I am not talking about the really boring PVE grind in WAR. The most boring PVE experience ever.
I am talking about the boring static linear open RvR! It's just a mere shadow and complete joke compaired to how open RvR in DAoC was! Mind you it has come from the same studio as WAR!
If you have defended one keep. If you have sieged one keep. Then you have done them all.
If you have defended one BO. If you have sieged one BO. Then you have done them all.
It's all the same. There is only one tactic for keep defense. There is only one tactic for Keep Siege.
The whole Open RvR in WAR feels like a mere afterthought rushed into the game at the end of closed beta. Seeing how bugged the VP system is, how buggy some of the keeps were and how horrible Fortress Sieging is ( and I am gonna hold my breath in how the actual City Sieging and King encounters are going to be... if it ever comes to that one day at all)!
Seeing how many Scenarios there are and how polished they felt right at release, proves more my point, that their primary focus was to chase people into small instanced PvP maps right from the start!
Not to mention the excessive amount of XP and Renown you get in Scenarios, compaired to PVE and Open RvR!
*If Siege weapons could be placed and moved around everywhere on the RvR lake
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Keep layouts accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each requiring their own specific tactics.
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Battle Objectives accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each having their own merrits and requiring specific tactics and benefits.
*If capturing a zone, even in Tier 1 or Tier 2 or Tier 3 actually had any REAL effect on the game world and the WAR effort.
Then WAR would be really WAR and RvR actually having a true meaning! The game would have been actually fun, dynamic, non-linear and much higher replayability on the longrun.
You know.... more in the lines of how DAoC origins used to be. Picking out what was the good stuff. Something like that. Like walls that could be teared down, etc.
Cheers
I wasnt talking about PvE either. Guess you havent played any real grindgames. PvE in war isnt very high quality. But I still dont mind to do BB/BE/LV once in a while. Not that they are that great but they give a variety.
* Small maps (scenario's), Small groups (scenario's) are way easier to test and get rid of the bugs.
* Zones where the keeps are located are different. Dont tell me Praag resembles Dragonwake.
* Keeps and fortresses are similar in layout. But they arent the same. Inside as outside they are different.
* I've defended many keeps and bo's. Never encountered an identical situation. (Except for fortresses where it just lags when huge crowds come into play).
* Only one tactic. True, kill the defenders.
* I have never felt forced into scenario's in beta. At release I was. Not anymore atm. K8P
Anyway what I am saying. For me WaR is worth its money. But they need to continue to improve. Because theres problems gonna have to get fixed. If you come from DAOC ya should know better.
What I am hoping for in an expansion is a larger more widespread frontier like RvR zone.
Well im currently, playing atla whatever online, wow, and war.
I can tell you leveling in war is by far the lamest: spam way too many of the buttons and honestly all mobs need less hp but need to hit harder to make up for it (ie faster kills). And mobs all act dumb and not very different.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Well im currently, playing atla whatever online, wow, and war.
I can tell you leveling in war is by far the lamest: spam way too many of the buttons and honestly all mobs need less hp but need to hit harder to make up for it (ie faster kills). And mobs all act dumb and not very different.
I do agree, this game was by far a let down, it did not even come close to the hype Mythic was putting out about this game.
I can no speak for others, but I will also rank this game for one of the top games that let me down in 2008.
Been there done that: Asherons Call,SWG,AOC,D&D,COH,Anarchy Online,DAOC,EVE,Guild Wars,LOTRO,POTBS,WAR,WW2, and Rift
Haha - actually WoW did have a large group of people who didn't take to the game right off the bat. There is attrition in every game. People aren't running for the hills in WAR necessarily. I understand that you probably are busy playing WoW at this time and could never possibly fathom that your game had problems at launch as well, but once mommy lets you back on the computer you should look it up. WAR is not dead (EU has problems due to GOA, but not because of the game) and WoW had problems at launch also. Nobody is running for the hills. That's funny.
Oh boy... here we go again.. *sigh* No, I am not playing Wow. No, I didn't buy WoTLK. No, I am not buying it either. Yes, I thought Wow was good and better than Warhammer, but FFXI was the best I've played. I own my own home and think Obama will do a way better job than Bush without even trying. Hope that helps you a bit with your guesswork.
Now that you got the name calling out of your system, can you stick to facts please?
Seems you have no idea of what the "large group of people" not taking to Wow at launch was. You just state that without any type of number at all. Numbers?.. have any? Probably not, but throwing "large group of people" sure sounds impressive huh? And while it's dreamy you'd like to think Wow's attrition was close in ANY way to resembling Warhammer's, reality has to set in sometime. I'm sure it looks good to you when you type it, but we can figure somewhat close to what WAR's loss ACTUALLY was. Let's examine:
Number subscriptions first month: Approximately 800kish. Number servers: Approximately 100 (some Warfans claimed over 4/5ths were "med/med" populated)
Today subs: Approximately 250-300k. Today servers: Only 19 currently listed as around "med/med" after transfers with the rest "just taking a little rest" for now.
That's not called attrition. That's called a mass exodus.
Now unless WoW had something like that at launch and 4 months out, Stinkypits, will you PLEASE stop comparing Warhammer to WoW in your posts? I thought War fans HATED when people do that, but you sprinted to comparisons of WoW and War with your post to defend War's sagging numbers with "But.. but..WOW had.." Next week, you'll be in somebody else's Warhammer thread yelling "It's not fair to compare War to Wow". Oh, the irony.
BTW: I never said Warhammer was dead. Your skimming/scanning skills need serious work. But if you want some real perspective Stinkypits, here is your fearless leader in action. HE said this, not me:
According to Jacobs, another way to measure success is to look at the number of servers a game has added in a six-month period. The corollary to that is if youve seen a game consolidate servers, you know its in deep, deep trouble thats not a healthy sign for an MMO, he said, citing Sonys January-released Pirates of the Burning Sea as a recent example. It will be the same for Warhammer. Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If were not adding servers, were not doing well.
Now Stinypits, I guess based how you see things with rose glasses, Mark Jacobs is "busy playing WoW at this time" and once his "mommy lets him back on the computer" he'll look up WoW's release data.
You know what, fanboi? I just found a new sig to end threads like this.
I won't argue that a lot of people bought WAR and a lot decided the game wasn't for them.
I will argue about whether WAR met expectations because there seems to a large disconnect between what worked-up MMORPG fans have for expectations and what Mythic has consistently said.
Originally posted by Miklosan It was allways this talking about "the WoW-killer"
It has been said by Mythic, EA and everyone else involved in WAR that it WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A WOW-KILLER
Here is just one of the many articles leading up to the game's release where they STATE this.
Obviously EA and Mythic didn't say it enough since people like the OP didn't get the message.
So here it is. AGAIN.
It was the game critics and magazines that kept fueling the idea the game was going to be a 'WoW-killer' . You might remember they said that about AoC and Tabula Rasa and they'll be saying it about every game that comes out in the future.
Is WAR a flop? Let's see if Mark Jacobs still has his job after the game has been out for 6 months. We've seen what happens to the lead designers of games that are true flops, like Vanguard or Tabula Rasa (Yeah Richard Garriott 'left' NCSoft, he wasn't canned lol)
That will be the real judgement whether the game met expectations of the COMPANY, not the expectations of fans who listened too much to gamer critic hype.
I wouldn't say WAR flopped. It's still pretty much the 2nd most popular p2p MMO (in the US, atleast). They have been constantly improving and adding content. I enjoyed WAR for the two months I played it, but I don't subscribe anymore due to a loss of intrest at the end of the 2nd month. I've been considering giving it another shot, if DF totally bombs, or get's delayed. I still have a few friends that played with me at the release that still play WAR, and don't see any major problems with the game/or population. Actually, they've been bugging me to resub and check out the changes (I quit in November, before the big updates).
As for being a "WoW" killer, I think that over-zealous fanboys were the only ones saying that.. Your average fans, and the Devs, all knew they wouldn't come out of the gate with sub numbers that challenged WoW's.. The "WoW" killer is alot like bigfoot.. A myth.
Every great pvp game i have played has been a PvE game with pvp as an added flavor for the players interested in that risk. WAR is a PvP game with PvE as an added flavor. There is just a serious lack of immersion. Even DAoC which, is one of the two best games I have ever played, required countless hours of PvE before you could even consider RvR.
Also, game designers are trying to appease the crybabies by sanitizing PvP. PvP without consequences is PvP without reward.
It has been said by Mythic, EA and everyone else involved in WAR that it WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A WOW-KILLER
While I agree he never said that in those EXACT words, Mark Jacobs DID say this (10/17/2008.. Gamesindustrybiz.net interview):
"We've known that Blizzard is preparing to launch in November. We just announced some of the things that will be going in our first major patch that's one of the ways we're going to respond."
"This is the beginning of a rather lengthy battle with the guys at Blizzard," Jacobs explained. "Were in this space to be successful and, when you have a competitor that is as successful and important to the games industry as WoW has been, you don't go into this space unless you're willing to spend money and spend time and really compete against them."
Hmmm... I wonder who Mark Jacobs is talking about "battling" here? LOTRO? EVE? AoC? Hello Kitty Online? Obviously he's plainly saying he's competing DIRECTLY against WoW. Warfans always say "We aren't competing with WoW. We don't want their kiddie customers." Err... well apparantly Mark Jacobs wants them. He's plastered it all over the net to anyone who would listen.
Why do you guys keep defending Mark Jacobs when he's left such a EASILY trackable trail of boastful verbal bobos and bellicose quotes ALL over the internet?
I mean seriously, this is TOO easy...and I'm not even trying. You really don't want to be posting quotes from interviews Jacobs has made... he's left far more embarrassing ones than accurate predictions.
As for being a "WoW" killer, I think that over-zealous fanboys were the only ones saying that.. Your average fans, and the Devs, all knew they wouldn't come out of the gate with sub numbers that challenged WoW's.. The "WoW" killer is alot like bigfoot.. A myth.
Exactly. Warfanbois are really just following the leader and his flavor. Mark Jacobs says something inflammatory, they run with it then later blame someone else for stirring the pot. Just shocking.
It has been said by Mythic, EA and everyone else involved in WAR that it WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A WOW-KILLER
While I agree he never said that in those EXACT words, Mark Jacobs DID say this (10/17/2008.. Gamesindustrybiz.net interview):
"We've known that Blizzard is preparing to launch in November. We just announced some of the things that will be going in our first major patch… that's one of the ways we're going to respond."
"This is the beginning of a rather lengthy battle with the guys at Blizzard," Jacobs explained. "We’re in this space to be successful and, when you have a competitor that is as successful and important to the games industry as WoW has been, you don't go into this space unless you're willing to spend money and spend time and really compete against them."
Hmmm... I wonder who Mark Jacobs is talking about "battling" here? LOTRO? EVE? AoC? Hello Kitty Online? Obviously he's plainly saying he's competing DIRECTLY against WoW. Warfans always say "We aren't competing with WoW. We don't want their kiddie customers." Err... well apparantly Mark Jacobs wants them. He's plastered it all over the net to anyone who would listen.
Why do you guys keep defending Mark Jacobs when he's left such a EASILY trackable trail of boastful verbal bobos and bellicose quotes ALL over the internet?
I mean seriously, this is TOO easy...and I'm not even trying. You really don't want to be posting quotes from interviews Jacobs has made... he's left far more embarrassing ones than accurate predictions.
When you enter the MMO market, you're going to be competing with WoW. "Competing with WoW" and "Hey my game will be a WoW killer bitch" are two totally different things. Competing means you hold your own against the game - you don't necessarily have to "threaten" it, because against a game like WoW that would take a million subs or more. If you compete, that means you're in the race so to speak. Some WAR fans might say "we're not competing with WoW", but you need to listen to the smart ones.
M.J. has been bold, but he's also been honest and straightforward. Honestly, we could use more "right in the face/nuts" guys in the MMO genre, when it has been tainted by secretive, shady characters like Tasos and whoever made Dark and Light. So, he wasn't right, but he wasn't completely wrong either. The game is still competing with WoW. Will he get his target number of subs? Who knows. People are starting to come back and they're at least curious, partly because of the RAF 7-day free trials.
You may not like M.J.'s style, and that's fine. Let him embarass himself, rub it in his face through us. He's not scarred by it and the only thing it'll do is drive him to fix the mistakes and improve the product.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
When you enter the MMO market, you're going to be competing with WoW. "Competing with WoW" and "Hey my game will be a WoW killer bitch" are two totally different things. Competing means you hold your own against the game - you don't necessarily have to "threaten" it, because against a game like WoW that would take a million subs or more. If you compete, that means you're in the race so to speak. Some WAR fans might say "we're not competing with WoW", but you need to listen to the smart ones.
M.J. has been bold, but he's also been honest and straightforward. Honestly, we could use more "right in the face/nuts" guys in the MMO genre, when it has been tainted by secretive, shady characters like Tasos and whoever made Dark and Light. So, he wasn't right, but he wasn't completely wrong either. The game is still competing with WoW. Will he get his target number of subs? Who knows. People are starting to come back and they're at least curious, partly because of the RAF 7-day free trials.
You may not like M.J.'s style, and that's fine. Let him embarass himself, rub it in his face through us. He's not scarred by it and the only thing it'll do is drive him to fix the mistakes and improve the product.
I don't fault him for being confident. I wouldn't want a guy making a game with the attitude "Man, I wish people would just like my game." I like confidence.
But MJ was talking a lot of "trash" basically, there is a difference. MJ and Paul Barnett in every interview they could were poking Blizzard in the ribs, playing the "Bad Boy" role. They couldn't help themselves and after awhile, that thing took a life of its own. You know as well as I do, that quite a few knuckleheads latched onto his type of attitude and ran to WoW forums before release with "WAAAGGH is coming!" and other nonsense. Most WoW people cared little about this game (still don't).. they were happy with their own. It wasn't like Warhammer would come out and suddenly they wouldn't have anyone raid Kara with ever again. To not admit this is really bad taste and be truthful. Of course its not ALL Warfans, plenty are some of the best posters I have seen. But you don't police your own, so lots of people line up for their smackdown, and you get lumped in.
Warfans say "Mark Jacobs listens to me. He understands me and gives me what I want." If you read his last quote up there, he put the 1.1 patch in not because you guys wanted it, but because it was a reaction to Blizzard's release of Lich King. Based on that, probably if there was no WoTLK coming in November, you never would have had this "fast response" and "deep caring commitment". That was a kneejerk to keep people in the game cause they were hemmoraging, that's all. MJ could care less about "you" and what you want.
No one is rubbing his face in it through you or every fan. It's usually pretty clear who those quotes are directed to; the misguided who post and don't know what MJ said about their own game and sales strategy.
People post Mark Jacobs' quotes to correct ignorance, not because they don't like Jacob's style or hate the man.
it did not flop it is a succes just not as big as supposed...period
QUESTION: Quote: Originally Posted by Xridnasa: - What's a "grocery store"? Is that like McDonald's? - ANSWER: Quote: Originally Posted by sidimazz: - Kind of, just without the rapist.
Comments
I don't think WAR flopped. It's a PvP-oriented game, the developers have been stating that for years. I didn't expect any major PvE elements at all.
It's the 2nd highest user-rated game on MMORPG.com, so I don't even know why people say "WAR flopped" on this site. But people have their opinions.
My opinion is that WAR was a great game at launch. Not many P2P MMOs have "good" launches. Sure there are flaws in WAR, but have you seen or been around during WOW's first year? Simular problems were present and it took numerous patches to fix WOW up to be as great as it is today.
To Crybabies: Uhm...if a game pisses you off, don't play it - duh.
To Crybabies - Part 2: If you want a game to suit all your needs, start off by going to college to become a Game Designer.
Emo User Award: busdriver, for his love of Britney Spears - The Prize - Winning Posts
it did not flop, far from it
personally i did not enjoy warhammer as i LOVE the books and the universe and that game is nothing like it at all. It is (and i have heard this quoted many times) a dark and gritty universe filled with horror and bloodshed. I liked the look of the very early Warhammer online (from a mag in 06, or maybe 05, i forge) and it looked very gritty and sinister.
the reality was i got some cartoony bright cheery world and very little warhammer.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Problem is that WoW launched in a time when there wasn't that much of competition out there.
Most people these days aren't patient enough anymore nor crazy enough anymore to pay to play beta and pray they manage to fix the game in a year or so.
People rather go back to their old games and wait for the next MMO to come along in a hope it will be better.
Game rating on MMORPG is a joke. Remember Vanguard? Remember Age of Conan? Enough said.
Everyone knows WAR is a PVP game. But what PVP is left in WAR when open RvR is flawed and a performance nightmare??
You can do the same Scenario just that many times, before you get bored out of your skull and just quit the game!
It's the same with Tier 4 open RvR. The only thing that happens day in day out... is BO and Keep swapping for gear! As it's appearently more fun and rewarding, then actually engaging in battle and turn your gameplay into a slideshow with frequent disconnects!
On most servers people don't even manage to lock down enough zones to open up Fortress Sieging due to population issues.
And the servers that do manage, crash the Tier 4 zones or even the whole server when attempting a Fortress Siege.
And if they manage to keep the Zone running, it will be one big CC mess and Slideshow with people constantly disconnecting left and right or just logging off out of frustration!
These days you only get one chance and one chance only! And that is at launch! And you better deliver and appearantly they didn't!
They should have tested their main hyped feature: Largescale Tier 4 RvR and the VP system through and through in Closed Beta, to make sure it works, is fun and lagfree.
They didn't and so failed to deliver! And so WAR did flop! Pure and simple! As their main hyped feature is flawed, not fun and not working and above all a performance nightmare.
Just have a look at the current server populations (especially here in the EU). It's just sad.
Cheers
I agree with this. While it's probably a bit over-simplistic, it's still probably the biggest factor, in my opinion.
I will say that I don't, however, consider the game to be a "flop." It's just not as massive of a success as what most expected.
There are other factors that have been mentioned that also, in my opinion, played in to the slow bleed of players leaving.....server pop issues, being one. And the fact that Jeff actually stated, at one point, that they were making "a game" not a "world," SCREAMS problem to me, when you're making what's supposed to be an MMORPG. This is why I have stated MANY times that WAR is NOT an MMORPG, but rather an MMOPVPG. If you are not immersed in a virtual "world," it's very hard to have much a sense of the RPG aspect of a game. With this genre of games, I believe making a "world" is very very important and cannot be separated from the "making a game" part of the equation.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I agree with this. While it's probably a bit over-simplistic, it's still probably the biggest factor, in my opinion.
I will say that I don't, however, consider the game to be a "flop." It's just not as massive of a success as what most expected.
There are other factors that have been mentioned that also, in my opinion, played in to the slow bleed of players leaving.....server pop issues, being one. And the fact that Jeff actually stated, at one point, that they were making "a game" not a "world," SCREAMS problem to me, when you're making what's supposed to be an MMORPG. This is why I have stated MANY times that WAR is NOT an MMORPG, but rather an MMOPVPG. If you are not immersed in a virtual "world," it's very hard to have much a sense of the RPG aspect of a game. With this genre of games, I believe making a "world" is very very important and cannot be separated from the "making a game" part of the equation.
Regarding what the other games did better, I for one dont blame them for bringing elements from WoW and adding a layer of their own on top, because the settings are so similar they work just fine for me, what they failed tho was in addressing the end game issue and server pop quickly as mentioned above.
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.
I was actually under the impression that War has only flopped in the EU (due to GoA). The US version from what i have read has been a success, as a success standard is taken at this present time, It does not mean it instantly has to become #1 or even #2.
Maybe it's already been said, but it lacks direction. Players too spread out doing too many things. They tried to make it appeal to everyone, and hit a point of diminishing returns.
And the problem with this is that even though it wasn't perfect on release, Wow was different and genre changing enough that MOST people who bought it stuck with it. It had low specs to run, simple to follow questlines, easy interface, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. We do know very few games are released perfect at launch but WoW didn't make people run for the hills because of this.
Haha - actually WoW did have a large group of people who didn't take to the game right off the bat. There is attrition in every game. People aren't running for the hills in WAR necessarily. I understand that you probably are busy playing WoW at this time and could never possibly fathom that your game had problems at launch as well, but once mommy lets you back on the computer you should look it up. WAR is not dead (EU has problems due to GOA, but not because of the game) and WoW had problems at launch also. Nobody is running for the hills. That's funny.And the problem with this is that even though it wasn't perfect on release, Wow was different and genre changing enough that MOST people who bought it stuck with it. It had low specs to run, simple to follow questlines, easy interface, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. We do know very few games are released perfect at launch but WoW didn't make people run for the hills because of this.
Haha - actually WoW did have a large group of people who didn't take to the game right off the bat. There is attrition in every game. People aren't running for the hills in WAR necessarily. I understand that you probably are busy playing WoW at this time and could never possibly fathom that your game had problems at launch as well, but once mommy lets you back on the computer you should look it up. WAR is not dead (EU has problems due to GOA, but not because of the game) and WoW had problems at launch also. Nobody is running for the hills. That's funny.Slight difference here if you're gonna compare to WoW. WoW topped the sales charts for the next few years. WAR dropped off after 2-3 weeks. Attrition isn't bad when you're replacing subscribers but for WAR that's something that can only be guessed at yet for WOW it was clear as day.
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
I am not talking about the really boring PVE grind in WAR. The most boring PVE experience ever.
I am talking about the boring static linear open RvR! It's just a mere shadow and complete joke compaired to how open RvR in DAoC was! Mind you it has come from the same studio as WAR!
If you have defended one keep. If you have sieged one keep. Then you have done them all.
If you have defended one BO. If you have sieged one BO. Then you have done them all.
It's all the same. There is only one tactic for keep defense. There is only one tactic for Keep Siege.
The whole Open RvR in WAR feels like a mere afterthought rushed into the game at the end of closed beta. Seeing how bugged the VP system is, how buggy some of the keeps were and how horrible Fortress Sieging is ( and I am gonna hold my breath in how the actual City Sieging and King encounters are going to be... if it ever comes to that one day at all)!
Seeing how many Scenarios there are and how polished they felt right at release, proves more my point, that their primary focus was to chase people into small instanced PvP maps right from the start!
Not to mention the excessive amount of XP and Renown you get in Scenarios, compaired to PVE and Open RvR!
*If Siege weapons could be placed and moved around everywhere on the RvR lake
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Keep layouts accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each requiring their own specific tactics.
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Battle Objectives accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each having their own merrits and requiring specific tactics and benefits.
*If capturing a zone, even in Tier 1 or Tier 2 or Tier 3 actually had any REAL effect on the game world and the WAR effort.
Then WAR would be really WAR and RvR actually having a true meaning! The game would have been actually fun, dynamic, non-linear and much higher replayability on the longrun.
You know.... more in the lines of how DAoC origins used to be. Picking out what was the good stuff. Something like that. Like walls that could be teared down, siege weapons being placed anywhere you wanted, etc.
Cheers
Sure they could foresee the huge difference in play styles during beta and during live.
Ow wait. In beta ppl played for fun and for the sake of testing a game they liked. Now in release we got loads of ppl playing for nothing more then a pat on the back.
If they dont receive a reward for it they just dont move. All I hear is ppl nagging about grind. But the only thing ppl seem to like is grind.
Flaws / issues / ... Its far from perfect but its not because u think its borked that its the truth.
Ps: war didnt flop. Only thing I hope to see soon is less lag in fortress sieges.
I am not talking about the really boring PVE grind in WAR. The most boring PVE experience ever.
I am talking about the boring static linear open RvR! It's just a mere shadow and complete joke compaired to how open RvR in DAoC was! Mind you it has come from the same studio as WAR!
If you have defended one keep. If you have sieged one keep. Then you have done them all.
If you have defended one BO. If you have sieged one BO. Then you have done them all.
It's all the same. There is only one tactic for keep defense. There is only one tactic for Keep Siege.
The whole Open RvR in WAR feels like a mere afterthought rushed into the game at the end of closed beta. Seeing how bugged the VP system is, how buggy some of the keeps were and how horrible Fortress Sieging is ( and I am gonna hold my breath in how the actual City Sieging and King encounters are going to be... if it ever comes to that one day at all)!
Seeing how many Scenarios there are and how polished they felt right at release, proves more my point, that their primary focus was to chase people into small instanced PvP maps right from the start!
Not to mention the excessive amount of XP and Renown you get in Scenarios, compaired to PVE and Open RvR!
*If Siege weapons could be placed and moved around everywhere on the RvR lake
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Keep layouts accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each requiring their own specific tactics.
*If there were at least a dozen completely different Battle Objectives accross the Tiers and RvR lakes, each having their own merrits and requiring specific tactics and benefits.
*If capturing a zone, even in Tier 1 or Tier 2 or Tier 3 actually had any REAL effect on the game world and the WAR effort.
Then WAR would be really WAR and RvR actually having a true meaning! The game would have been actually fun, dynamic, non-linear and much higher replayability on the longrun.
You know.... more in the lines of how DAoC origins used to be. Picking out what was the good stuff. Something like that. Like walls that could be teared down, etc.
Cheers
I wasnt talking about PvE either.
Guess you havent played any real grindgames. PvE in war isnt very high quality. But I still dont mind to do BB/BE/LV once in a while. Not that they are that great but they give a variety.
* Small maps (scenario's), Small groups (scenario's) are way easier to test and get rid of the bugs.
* Zones where the keeps are located are different. Dont tell me Praag resembles Dragonwake.
* Keeps and fortresses are similar in layout. But they arent the same. Inside as outside they are different.
* I've defended many keeps and bo's. Never encountered an identical situation. (Except for fortresses where it just lags when huge crowds come into play).
* Only one tactic. True, kill the defenders.
* I have never felt forced into scenario's in beta. At release I was. Not anymore atm. K8P
Anyway what I am saying. For me WaR is worth its money. But they need to continue to improve. Because theres problems gonna have to get fixed. If you come from DAOC ya should know better.
What I am hoping for in an expansion is a larger more widespread frontier like RvR zone.
Well im currently, playing atla whatever online, wow, and war.
I can tell you leveling in war is by far the lamest: spam way too many of the buttons and honestly all mobs need less hp but need to hit harder to make up for it (ie faster kills). And mobs all act dumb and not very different.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I do agree, this game was by far a let down, it did not even come close to the hype Mythic was putting out about this game.
I can no speak for others, but I will also rank this game for one of the top games that let me down in 2008.
Been there done that:
Asherons Call,SWG,AOC,D&D,COH,Anarchy Online,DAOC,EVE,Guild Wars,LOTRO,POTBS,WAR,WW2, and Rift
Oh boy... here we go again.. *sigh* No, I am not playing Wow. No, I didn't buy WoTLK. No, I am not buying it either. Yes, I thought Wow was good and better than Warhammer, but FFXI was the best I've played. I own my own home and think Obama will do a way better job than Bush without even trying. Hope that helps you a bit with your guesswork.
Now that you got the name calling out of your system, can you stick to facts please?
Seems you have no idea of what the "large group of people" not taking to Wow at launch was. You just state that without any type of number at all. Numbers?.. have any? Probably not, but throwing "large group of people" sure sounds impressive huh? And while it's dreamy you'd like to think Wow's attrition was close in ANY way to resembling Warhammer's, reality has to set in sometime. I'm sure it looks good to you when you type it, but we can figure somewhat close to what WAR's loss ACTUALLY was. Let's examine:
Number subscriptions first month: Approximately 800kish.
Number servers: Approximately 100 (some Warfans claimed over 4/5ths were "med/med" populated)
Today subs: Approximately 250-300k.
Today servers: Only 19 currently listed as around "med/med" after transfers with the rest "just taking a little rest" for now.
That's not called attrition. That's called a mass exodus.
Now unless WoW had something like that at launch and 4 months out, Stinkypits, will you PLEASE stop comparing Warhammer to WoW in your posts? I thought War fans HATED when people do that, but you sprinted to comparisons of WoW and War with your post to defend War's sagging numbers with "But.. but..WOW had.." Next week, you'll be in somebody else's Warhammer thread yelling "It's not fair to compare War to Wow". Oh, the irony.
BTW: I never said Warhammer was dead. Your skimming/scanning skills need serious work. But if you want some real perspective Stinkypits, here is your fearless leader in action. HE said this, not me:
Now Stinypits, I guess based how you see things with rose glasses, Mark Jacobs is "busy playing WoW at this time" and once his "mommy lets him back on the computer" he'll look up WoW's release data.
You know what, fanboi? I just found a new sig to end threads like this.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I won't argue that a lot of people bought WAR and a lot decided the game wasn't for them.
I will argue about whether WAR met expectations because there seems to a large disconnect between what worked-up MMORPG fans have for expectations and what Mythic has consistently said.
It has been said by Mythic, EA and everyone else involved in WAR that it WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A WOW-KILLER
Here is just one of the many articles leading up to the game's release where they STATE this.
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/EA-Warhammer-Isn-t-A-WoW-killer-10904.html
Obviously EA and Mythic didn't say it enough since people like the OP didn't get the message.
So here it is. AGAIN.
It was the game critics and magazines that kept fueling the idea the game was going to be a 'WoW-killer' . You might remember they said that about AoC and Tabula Rasa and they'll be saying it about every game that comes out in the future.
Is WAR a flop? Let's see if Mark Jacobs still has his job after the game has been out for 6 months. We've seen what happens to the lead designers of games that are true flops, like Vanguard or Tabula Rasa (Yeah Richard Garriott 'left' NCSoft, he wasn't canned lol)
That will be the real judgement whether the game met expectations of the COMPANY, not the expectations of fans who listened too much to gamer critic hype.
I wouldn't say WAR flopped. It's still pretty much the 2nd most popular p2p MMO (in the US, atleast). They have been constantly improving and adding content. I enjoyed WAR for the two months I played it, but I don't subscribe anymore due to a loss of intrest at the end of the 2nd month. I've been considering giving it another shot, if DF totally bombs, or get's delayed. I still have a few friends that played with me at the release that still play WAR, and don't see any major problems with the game/or population. Actually, they've been bugging me to resub and check out the changes (I quit in November, before the big updates).
As for being a "WoW" killer, I think that over-zealous fanboys were the only ones saying that.. Your average fans, and the Devs, all knew they wouldn't come out of the gate with sub numbers that challenged WoW's.. The "WoW" killer is alot like bigfoot.. A myth.
Every great pvp game i have played has been a PvE game with pvp as an added flavor for the players interested in that risk. WAR is a PvP game with PvE as an added flavor. There is just a serious lack of immersion. Even DAoC which, is one of the two best games I have ever played, required countless hours of PvE before you could even consider RvR.
Also, game designers are trying to appease the crybabies by sanitizing PvP. PvP without consequences is PvP without reward.
Which FF Character Are You?
While I agree he never said that in those EXACT words, Mark Jacobs DID say this (10/17/2008.. Gamesindustrybiz.net interview):
Hmmm... I wonder who Mark Jacobs is talking about "battling" here? LOTRO? EVE? AoC? Hello Kitty Online? Obviously he's plainly saying he's competing DIRECTLY against WoW. Warfans always say "We aren't competing with WoW. We don't want their kiddie customers." Err... well apparantly Mark Jacobs wants them. He's plastered it all over the net to anyone who would listen.
Why do you guys keep defending Mark Jacobs when he's left such a EASILY trackable trail of boastful verbal bobos and bellicose quotes ALL over the internet?
I mean seriously, this is TOO easy...and I'm not even trying. You really don't want to be posting quotes from interviews Jacobs has made... he's left far more embarrassing ones than accurate predictions.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Exactly. Warfanbois are really just following the leader and his flavor. Mark Jacobs says something inflammatory, they run with it then later blame someone else for stirring the pot. Just shocking.
"TO MICHAEL!"
While I agree he never said that in those EXACT words, Mark Jacobs DID say this (10/17/2008.. Gamesindustrybiz.net interview):
Hmmm... I wonder who Mark Jacobs is talking about "battling" here? LOTRO? EVE? AoC? Hello Kitty Online? Obviously he's plainly saying he's competing DIRECTLY against WoW. Warfans always say "We aren't competing with WoW. We don't want their kiddie customers." Err... well apparantly Mark Jacobs wants them. He's plastered it all over the net to anyone who would listen.
Why do you guys keep defending Mark Jacobs when he's left such a EASILY trackable trail of boastful verbal bobos and bellicose quotes ALL over the internet?
I mean seriously, this is TOO easy...and I'm not even trying. You really don't want to be posting quotes from interviews Jacobs has made... he's left far more embarrassing ones than accurate predictions.
When you enter the MMO market, you're going to be competing with WoW. "Competing with WoW" and "Hey my game will be a WoW killer bitch" are two totally different things. Competing means you hold your own against the game - you don't necessarily have to "threaten" it, because against a game like WoW that would take a million subs or more. If you compete, that means you're in the race so to speak. Some WAR fans might say "we're not competing with WoW", but you need to listen to the smart ones.
M.J. has been bold, but he's also been honest and straightforward. Honestly, we could use more "right in the face/nuts" guys in the MMO genre, when it has been tainted by secretive, shady characters like Tasos and whoever made Dark and Light. So, he wasn't right, but he wasn't completely wrong either. The game is still competing with WoW. Will he get his target number of subs? Who knows. People are starting to come back and they're at least curious, partly because of the RAF 7-day free trials.
You may not like M.J.'s style, and that's fine. Let him embarass himself, rub it in his face through us. He's not scarred by it and the only thing it'll do is drive him to fix the mistakes and improve the product.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I don't fault him for being confident. I wouldn't want a guy making a game with the attitude "Man, I wish people would just like my game." I like confidence.
But MJ was talking a lot of "trash" basically, there is a difference. MJ and Paul Barnett in every interview they could were poking Blizzard in the ribs, playing the "Bad Boy" role. They couldn't help themselves and after awhile, that thing took a life of its own. You know as well as I do, that quite a few knuckleheads latched onto his type of attitude and ran to WoW forums before release with "WAAAGGH is coming!" and other nonsense. Most WoW people cared little about this game (still don't).. they were happy with their own. It wasn't like Warhammer would come out and suddenly they wouldn't have anyone raid Kara with ever again. To not admit this is really bad taste and be truthful. Of course its not ALL Warfans, plenty are some of the best posters I have seen. But you don't police your own, so lots of people line up for their smackdown, and you get lumped in.
Warfans say "Mark Jacobs listens to me. He understands me and gives me what I want." If you read his last quote up there, he put the 1.1 patch in not because you guys wanted it, but because it was a reaction to Blizzard's release of Lich King. Based on that, probably if there was no WoTLK coming in November, you never would have had this "fast response" and "deep caring commitment". That was a kneejerk to keep people in the game cause they were hemmoraging, that's all. MJ could care less about "you" and what you want.
No one is rubbing his face in it through you or every fan. It's usually pretty clear who those quotes are directed to; the misguided who post and don't know what MJ said about their own game and sales strategy.
People post Mark Jacobs' quotes to correct ignorance, not because they don't like Jacob's style or hate the man.
"TO MICHAEL!"
it did not flop it is a succes just not as big as supposed...period
QUESTION:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xridnasa:
-
What's a "grocery store"? Is that like McDonald's?
-
ANSWER:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidimazz:
-
Kind of, just without the rapist.