Just for info, the server-caps were initially set at lower limits early on, so looking at med/med or low/low at launch is not the same as now, the bar got moved.
There was a exodus of players, some servers got hit hard others didn't, it was a lottery as to whether you were on a server that had a lot of players leave.
But, there's a point a lot of people here aren't taking into account & that is that the nature of the playerbase is constantly changing, before WoW was released all there was were niche games, the population of gamers that took up WoW on release were made up in the majority by players NEW to MMO's, though there were losses from those niche games to WoW it was nowhere near enough to account for WoW's huge numbers.
The bulk of what Blizzard had join on the WoW franchise were former Blizzard fans of games like Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 & Starcraft which had large solid fanbases of their own, couple that prior existing fanbase with an aggressive marketing & advertising campaign & WoW earned it's place in history, however, it also completely altered the very nature of the marketplace by swamping it with players that were not of the same breed as the niche MMO players, this new MMO gaming playerbase was a lot more casual, a lot more "transitory" in nature.
The average MMO player prior to WoW was typically very loyal to their chosen niche game, a few may try a new game's trial or beta but more often that not they would return ti their old staple but the bulk were happy where they were & didn't flit from game to game, in the post WoW times with the younger, more novelty-driven playerbase that now exists alongside the old fogies of MMO gaming what happens is a new game comes out, a BIG chunk of WoW players try it out, then a large part of that big chunk of WoW players go back to WoW.
The new population does what the old one did but to a larger percentage, just that there's now a lot more of them doing it because the MMO community is vastly bigger since WoW, hence the "Big Swings" in the MMO community between games as they are released, it's human nature to want to see what the new guy on the block is peddling.
WAR is far from a flop, it didn't meet expectations on some counts but it still delivers a great deal of entertainment, no game will appeal to everyone, but I do get the impression a lot of MMO gamers are just burned out trying each new game that comes out & being disappointed it wasn't anything like as thrilling as their first foray into MMO's, newsflash you are no longer an MMO virgin, you got your cherry popped & some of the magic of those first moments can never be recaptured.
Just for info, the server-caps were initially set at lower limits early on, so looking at med/med or low/low at launch is not the same as now, the bar got moved. There was a exodus of players, some servers got hit hard others didn't, it was a lottery as to whether you were on a server that had a lot of players leave. But, there's a point a lot of people here aren't taking into account & that is that the nature of the playerbase is constantly changing, before WoW was released all there was were niche games, the population of gamers that took up WoW on release were made up in the majority by players NEW to MMO's, though there were losses from those niche games to WoW it was nowhere near enough to account for WoW's huge numbers. The bulk of what Blizzard had join on the WoW franchise were former Blizzard fans of games like Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 & Starcraft which had large solid fanbases of their own, couple that prior existing fanbase with an aggressive marketing & advertising campaign & WoW earned it's place in history, however, it also completely altered the very nature of the marketplace by swamping it with players that were not of the same breed as the niche MMO players, this new MMO gaming playerbase was a lot more casual, a lot more "transitory" in nature. The average MMO player prior to WoW was typically very loyal to their chosen niche game, a few may try a new game's trial or beta but more often that not they would return ti their old staple but the bulk were happy where they were & didn't flit from game to game, in the post WoW times with the younger, more novelty-driven playerbase that now exists alongside the old fogies of MMO gaming what happens is a new game comes out, a BIG chunk of WoW players try it out, then a large part of that big chunk of WoW players go back to WoW. The new population does what the old one did but to a larger percentage, just that there's now a lot more of them doing it because the MMO community is vastly bigger since WoW, hence the "Big Swings" in the MMO community between games as they are released, it's human nature to want to see what the new guy on the block is peddling. WAR is far from a flop, it didn't meet expectations on some counts but it still delivers a great deal of entertainment, no game will appeal to everyone, but I do get the impression a lot of MMO gamers are just burned out trying each new game that comes out & being disappointed it wasn't anything like as thrilling as their first foray into MMO's, newsflash you are no longer an MMO virgin, you got your cherry popped & some of the magic of those first moments can never be recaptured.
You had some credibility before you used the tired/immature "LOL CHERRY POP" analogy.
People aren't looking for their first experience again, each player, depending on their preferances are looking for different things. Some want a sandbox MMO that isn't boring as fuck (IE: Not EVE), some want a MMORPG with a pvp focus and a good combat system (not WAR), some want PVE beyond "Hey, go kill ten of this random creature and return to me plz" (Not LOTRO / WoW).
you can tell this thread is a failure just by looking at the name. Why did WAR flopped?? are you kidding me? go back to school kid
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.
i make up some random name for a site that has no credibility, then i say my piece in a flame bait of a topic that is titled "why did war flopped?" and i get labeled a troll? sweet this sites great.
ps you shouldnt be talking about names since yours is just as lame as mine
I said it after playing it for one week back in Sep, the game would flop because it is rather boring.
The grand strategical thing put above it isn't interesting enough and forget about roleplaying or the well known TT Lore. No seperate unique armies of Empire or Dwarves or Elves. Clunky and unresponsive did the rest.
So I was called a troll, because I knew that Mythic just wanted to go head to head with the 11.5 ton gorilla of the industry and this product failed to do just that. By a long shot.
It FAILED because it had a strategy.
The strategy was: we LURE in the bored guys of Wow. MJ spoke of it every time he had the chance. Remember him saying "we changed a lot of our content after seeing TBC", the guy is obsessed with Wow and Wow like sub numbers. The planned server park proved it.
And he's backed up with this obsession with his forum fans like Greyhooff and the Disney pic woman. Mythic uses these guys on forums, because that's the exact reason MJ doesn't want proper forums. Always trying "to lure in" and compare the product with Wow within the community
After 7 days of playing I saw this and began saying: "every copy sold of War is pure publicity for WotLK". Because I saw it coming....
War has and had in NO way the capacity to lure in players for longer than the free month and or 2 more "now and then" plays.
The problem with bored Wow players is ... that War is 10 times more boring to them. Oh everyone interested bought it, - a boom in servers - , but after 3 weeks most saw no need to play it longer.
EVEN Darkpony, a fanboy of the first hour, said it in his post recently. After having played War for 3 months it is indeed too boring to continue.
That's why it fails. mmoRPG's should be played at least 6 months to a year.
I hate to say it but even AoC was less boring in its first 20 levels, but they made the mistake of the wrong graphics use in MMO's.
-----
Both games failed in what everyone was hoping for: a new world - a new adventure to play in for the next 2 years ....
Very simply. T3 sucked too much. People were having a great time doing T1 and T2 and then burned out in T3. They left the game in droves in once they got to T3.
I said it after playing it for one week back in Sep, the game would flop because it is rather boring. The grand strategical thing put above it isn't interesting enough and forget about roleplaying or the well known TT Lore. No seperate unique armies of Empire or Dwarves or Elves. Clunky and unresponsive did the rest. So I was called a troll, because I knew that Mythic just wanted to go head to head with the 11.5 ton gorilla of the industry and this product failed to do just that. By a long shot. It FAILED because it had a strategy. The strategy was: we LURE in the bored guys of Wow. MJ spoke of it every time he had the chance. Remember him saying "we changed a lot of our content after seeing TBC", the guy is obsessed with Wow and Wow like sub numbers. The planned server park proved it. And he's backed up with this obsession with his forum fans like Greyhooff and the Disney pic woman. Mythic uses these guys on forums, because that's the exact reason MJ doesn't want proper forums. Always trying "to lure in" and compare the product with Wow within the community After 7 days of playing I saw this and began saying: "every copy sold of War is pure publicity for WotLK". Because I saw it coming.... War has and had in NO way the capacity to lure in players for longer than the free month and or 2 more "now and then" plays. The problem with bored Wow players is ... that War is 10 times more boring to them. Oh everyone interested bought it, - a boom in servers - , but after 3 weeks most saw no need to play it longer. EVEN Darkpony, a fanboy of the first hour, said it in his post recently. After having played War for 3 months it is indeed too boring to continue. That's why it fails. mmoRPG's should be played at least 6 months to a year. I hate to say it but even AoC was less boring in its first 20 levels, but they made the mistake of the wrong graphics use in MMO's. ----- Both games failed in what everyone was hoping for: a new world - a new adventure to play in for the next 2 years ....
This. Very well written.
The PVE in WAR is just extremely boring. The quests extremely simple and a boring grind.
When you leveled up your first char... leveling up a second one or even a third one becomes a true chore!
Scenarios are fun to an extend, but playing the exact same map over and over and over and over becomes extremely boring! Hence, if I want to play small instanced PVP maps I go play an FPS game. At least there due to the modding community I have the choice of hundreds of different well designed custom user maps.
I joined WAR for the Open RvR. The largescale world PVP! Nothing more.
Yet this aspect has to my feeling gotten the least development attention during initial development.
Compaired to DAoC the Open RvR in WAR is a total joke.
Unimaginitive, linear, static and boring!
Tier 3 is a looooong boring grind. So people spend a long time in Tier 3 RvR and when they finally end up in Tier 4 ... they discover that Tier 4 isn't any difference. Only that the excessive CC is pretty much dominating in PVP making everything even more boring and frustrating.
Every damn Keep has the same basic layout... making everything even more boring.
Add to that, that there isn't any concequence... any accomplishment feel at all.
You lock a zone, turn your back a few secs and the enemy has undone your hard work again.
Add to the fact that you have to grind your ass off in the same PQ's and Scenario over and over again to get the required VP to lock a zone ...and people become even more bored out of their skulls.
EVERY person that has spend more then a month in Tier 4 says the same... they have become bored of the linear, static boring open RvR in WAR and the forced scenario and PQ grind to get a zone locked.
And on most servers the population is such an issue that they cannot even manage to lock enough zones to ever see a Fortress Siege, so there people just spend their time Keep swapping for gold bags=gear.
And don't start about Fortress Sieges... as we all know how bad they are. They are even worse then the Keeps.
All we are saying (me and many others) is that Mythic had a great game to learn from and to improve from. A game they developed themselves for christ sakes..... and they didn't!
Regarding the ques at launch, Let me explain why we don't have ques anymore.
They can you have 750k players in Tier 1? : No, so we got ques.
Mytic tried to solve it by making more servers available... they solved the problem, but it created servers with low populations once people were out of T1.
So, now they are making it possible to transfer characters and guilds.
you can tell this thread is a failure just by looking at the name. Why did WAR flopped?? are you kidding me? go back to school kid
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.
i make up some random name for a site that has no credibility, then i say my piece in a flame bait of a topic that is titled "why did war flopped?" and i get labeled a troll? sweet this sites great.
ps you shouldnt be talking about names since yours is just as lame as mine
The problem is that "your piece" is an ignorant and presumptious statement. Internet is global and many, many (like me) do not have english as their first or even second language so they are doing their best to try and communicate and I dont think anyone doesnt understand what he is saying even though they may not agree with it.
And if this site has no credibility then why are you here? You like hurting yourself?
Regarding the ques at launch, Let me explain why we don't have ques anymore.
They can you have 750k players in Tier 1? : No, so we got ques. Mytic tried to solve it by making more servers available... they solved the problem, but it created servers with low populations once people were out of T1. So, now they are making it possible to transfer characters and guilds.
Uhm, this doesnt make any sense. Servers are not divided by tiers so if the SERVER not the Tier had high population it meant the server did, not just the tier.
Unless Mythic has a real weird way of calculating server population.
Sorry for the really long post but I tried my best to format everything to help with readability.
Not sure if WAR is dying because I have only played on three servers.
1) Before T3, I don't bother to run around for oRVR unless it's right next to me. Without a mount I feel that by the time I finally find/reach some oRVR, I could've played at least three scenarios. Even with a mount, I still feel that it takes too long sometimes.
2) The CC is really excessive imho. After the much praised CC patch, I am having even more problems because I am always in "you are disabled" state.
3) Too many things don't work. I played a tank but since I can only guard people in my party, I rarely get to use it. Even something simple like buying multiple copies of ingredients (like water or vials) from vendors (via holding shift & clicking), I'll sometimes need to use /reloadgi or purchase my ingredients one at a time.
4A) I think the communication is HORRIBLE. I used to play a Rune Priest when the master runes would cause memory leaks. It was an issue that was all over the WHA forums and I've submitted over 10 bug reports. No response. Not even something like, we're looking at this issue but it's proving difficult to fix. At least a response like this would let me know that they're aware of what's peeving me off. Instead, it's the silent treatment and after weeks it's mentioned in a hot fix or patch. My frustration would be much less all this time if I just knew they were aware of the issue but they couldn't even do that for myself or any of the hundreds of posters that complained of this bug.
4C) I only seem to see posts by them when it's time for them to beat their chests about what they've just fixed or how great they are.
5) I do not feel like I am in a world when playing WAR. It feels too linear to me.
6) I love the PQ but after the first couple months I've had a very hard time finding people willing to do them.
7) I usually play melee and Keep Defense/Offense is boring to me. If I'm not on the RAM, then I'm pounding away at the door. Are there any efforts to implement lock-picking for melee (another broken skill for melee)? Once again because they never communicate on bugs/issues I have no idea if they are aware or even care about it.
8) I've attacked/defended various keeps & bo and the experience is always the same. For the keeps: can't they at least randomize the lord's abilities or something? Maybe randomize the layout or randomize the number/abilities of the lord's henchmen? Randomize the number of ramps? I don't know just randomize something. It's just one HUGE zerg up the stairs & the lord is usually dead a few seconds after I land my first attack. There’s all these different types of scenarios, so surely they can make different kinds of keeps.
---------------------------------------
I can't believe this is the same company that made DAOC. I was really wished that they would remake DAOC with the WAR IP. I just don't understand why they decided to WOW-enize their game so much when they had a succesful track record with DAOC.
--You can't copy WOW and expect to pull the WOW players unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard.
--You can't copy EVE and expect to get the EVE players unless you do the EVE experience better than CCP.
Same with any established game/business.
I really feel that they underestimated how low burned out WOW-players have set their bar when seeking their next MMO.
I still feel that WAR has the potential to turn things around and I am hoping they can. However, I am not going to be paying them while I feel there’s so much that needs to be improved.
last time I checked the WAR servers had good activity, sure the game isnt WoW (population wise)
But its still a fun game, the problems people have with it aren't game breaking. the game just needs to tweak certain features a bit and it goes from good to excellent.
Just for info, the server-caps were initially set at lower limits early on, so looking at med/med or low/low at launch is not the same as now, the bar got moved. There was a exodus of players, some servers got hit hard others didn't, it was a lottery as to whether you were on a server that had a lot of players leave.
I am going to have to disagree with this portion of what you wrote.
Mythic claimed to have moved the server caps up, but they only did this right at the time when the first free months were ending. They knew a lot of people were leaving and they only announced this in some interview on some fan site. Why would Mythic have a need to raise caps on servers when there was zero need to do so. Servers were already dying, so it wasn't like they needed room for more people to join.
That statement was 100% pure PR spin. They said that in an attempt to explain away why all the servers were showing low and medium when they used to say heavy/full. I was looking for a new server to transfer to at that time and I can tell you there wasn't some overnight change that was caused by a population cap raise. The decline in server loads was slow and steady, not something that happened one night after Mythic changed the loads.
Just think about it for one second. Why would Mythic make a change like this, that solved no problem and only makes the game look like it is losing subscribers. The only logical reason is that it was a smoke screen to hide what was already happening.
One last thing I would like to point out that I think you are incorrect about. Gamers are gamers no matter where you go. It isn't like people who played old mmos are some sort of super humans in comparison to people who just started in the last few years. People are the same everywhere and a start date doesn't really change that. There is far more similarities between the two segments of games you point to than you might think.
Just for info, the server-caps were initially set at lower limits early on, so looking at med/med or low/low at launch is not the same as now, the bar got moved. There was a exodus of players, some servers got hit hard others didn't, it was a lottery as to whether you were on a server that had a lot of players leave.
I am going to have to disagree with this portion of what you wrote.
Mythic claimed to have moved the server caps up, but they only did this right at the time when the first free months were ending. They knew a lot of people were leaving and they only announced this in some interview on some fan site. Why would Mythic have a need to raise caps on servers when there was zero need to do so. Servers were already dying, so it wasn't like they needed room for more people to join.
That statement was 100% pure PR spin. They said that in an attempt to explain away why all the servers were showing low and medium when they used to say heavy/full. I was looking for a new server to transfer to at that time and I can tell you there wasn't some overnight change that was caused by a population cap raise. The decline in server loads was slow and steady, not something that happened one night after Mythic changed the loads.
Just think about it for one second. Why would Mythic make a change like this, that solved no problem and only makes the game look like it is losing subscribers. The only logical reason is that it was a smoke screen to hide what was already happening.
One last thing I would like to point out that I think you are incorrect about. Gamers are gamers no matter where you go. It isn't like people who played old mmos are some sort of super humans in comparison to people who just started in the last few years. People are the same everywhere and a start date doesn't really change that. There is far more similarities between the two segments of games you point to than you might think.
On my server queues were gone all a sudden. Wasnt just after free month btw. So on a certain day more than 3hour worth off queue just left the game? Right.
Server went from high/high to med/med.
Gamers are not the same everywhere. Try and feel the difference between the loads of clans that start and die evey month in a shooter. And the atmosphere in a guild thats older then some games. If you dont notice a difference. Thats very strange.
Just in general btw, arguments like "everyone says after x time of playing". Don't insinuate things as a truth, when ya blatantly know they arent.
Originally posted by metalleke On my server queues were gone all a sudden. Wasnt just after free month btw. So on a certain day more than 3hour worth off queue just left the game? Right. Server went from high/high to med/med. Gamers are not the same everywhere. Try and feel the difference between the loads of clans that start and die evey month in a shooter. And the atmosphere in a guild thats older then some games. If you dont notice a difference. Thats very strange. Just in general btw, arguments like "everyone says after x time of playing". Don't insinuate things as a truth, when ya blatantly know they arent.
Like I said, I happened to be watching server loads to see which server would make a good new home right around this time, because my server was already dead. There was not some drop across the board due to some less than talked about population cap increase. I saw the slow and steady decline as choice after choice I picked dropped from heavy to medium. It wasn't just some overnight occurance.
Something I am curious about is what server had a 3 hour que anywhere after the free month or close to it? I know my server went from medium to low the day after the three top guilds all decided to reroll on another server, but to my knowledge there wasn't any server US side that had 3 hour ques that far into release. Around this time I could count the number of heavy servers on 1 hand most nights and that is counting both factions.
As for players being the same, they are for the most part. Gamers are gamers and for the most part share identical values and styles. Skuz was making a point that something things are different now due to "fps" types playing mmos. He focuses on the large swings in players trying new games and returning to old games as if the people making the choice are the biggest factor. I disagree with that and think gamers are gamers for the most part. What he overlooks is that most of the games release post-wow era have been total crap or at best not even close to as good as the game they departed. There has been very little compelling reason for people to leave their old games for new games. Where earlier mmos all sort of suffered rough launches and it was more or less accepted to pay a fee while companies fixed their game over the next several months/years.
Games are not failing now because the new breed of mmo players just won't leave their old game. Games are falling down now, because people have more options. There isn't really a need to pay for some unfinished game when they can simply go back to an established game and wait for the next release to come out. However those days too are going to slow down as pretty much all the big blockbusters have made their debute.
A good game will pull old players, new players and everything in between if it is crafted well enough.
No depth, crappy combat engine, crappy RVR that's almost as Bad's as WoW's, crappy PvE, falling woefully short of sales and subscription expectations... It's a fucking flop; ok?
reading through a lot of these posts and I have to comment.
First, the game is not failing. Has it lost members? yes. Do some things need to be fixed? yes. So has and does every other MMO out there. This game, to me granted, has the best PvP so far implemented. Don't name me other games that are better cuz as I said, this is my opionion and I probably haven't played them.
Mythic has also started consolidating the servers. They started with way, way too many to begin with and this caused problems on some servers, others were the opposite. So what do they do at the time instead of raise the pop cap? Clone servers. That was a disaster. They raised the pop cap after that but should have well before as well as offered free server transfers then instead of after. Whoops. But the game didn't fail, it's still going strong.
Things they could do better? There is a lot, just like any other MMO. Character customization is one I think that needs to be especially looked at. As for PvP balance, zog off. It's not that friggin' bad. I play a shaman and get punted all over the place and die all the time. It's war people, you're gonna die. And balance is something again that all MMOs must and do focus on so quit yer whinin' already.
I don't have firm numbers as Mythic hasn't released them yet but I can say for my server on Phoenix Throne, it's still going strong and mostly balanced, perhaps more in favor of order even. Other servers, maybe not as well but with such a plethora of new MMOs on the horizon and open beta going strong in them now, it's not surprising the numbers are down here, for now. This is a great game, to me, and I can only see it getting better. If not, well then I'll pack me waaaghstik and move on to 40k when it comes out. Even then I'll still stick around here for the PvP.
Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale. The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded. I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.
Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale. The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded. I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.
For all the hype Warhammer going in, yes it could be considered a failure. Did it do a lot of box sales and have intial large numbers of subscribers? yes,, but the numbers of people who would play this game long term have dropped. My guild has had, including myself 10 people subscribe to other games. I'm pretty sure there are many people who can say the same.
The game did not deliver what was promised at all, War Everywhere! It is scenario ridden, the only rvr that happens is in 10% of any tiers map, the rewards system is bunk, the CC is ridiculous, the PvE areas are stagnant with no epic feel to them, the servers can't handle a large raid, keep swapping is more prevalent than pvp.
Warhammer is surviiving, thriving (however you want to put it) because there really aren't many good games out. WoW has their fanbase because they feel it's good, EvE is a good game imo but it is a niche game being in space and all. There are fans of AoC but many are turned off by it's previous problems at release. There are games like StarWars, Star Trek, Darkfall, Mortal down the pipeline but they cater to certain crowds or they face a very weary customer base due to a myriad of reasons.
All in all, Mythic should be grateful they didn't release WaR at any other time than now. Lack of competition is helping them way much more than anyone thinking this is a good game.
I can't believe this is the same company that made DAOC. I was really wished that they would remake DAOC with the WAR IP. I just don't understand why they decided to WOW-enize their game so much when they had a succesful track record with DAOC. --You can't copy WOW and expect to pull the WOW players unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard.
--You can't copy EVE and expect to get the EVE players unless you do the EVE experience better than CCP.
Same with any established game/business. I really feel that they underestimated how low burned out WOW-players have set their bar when seeking their next MMO. I still feel that WAR has the potential to turn things around and I am hoping they can. However, I am not going to be paying them while I feel there’s so much that needs to be improved.
I so much agree with this statement. It seems like the MMORPG industry is in crisis because almost all devs look at WoWs subscription numbers and think if they copy WoWs features and add their own twist then they will get similar subscription numbers.
But as you say you wont do that unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard and that is a very hard thing to do. For one Blizzard is an excellent company that always hold a very high standard of their games and second they know the Warcraft IP better than anyone else so trying to make a better WoW copy us very hard if not impossible.
Hopefully after the many semi-failures such as AoC and WAR the devs realise this and try to be innovative instead of copying other companies product. Not saying that WAR is a complete copy of WoW but it has many elements, the very linear progression and lenient death penalties for one thing, that is very similar to WoW and when people see this they probably think. Hey this is like WoW then why dont I play WoW instead which has ten times the number of people and many times the content than this game?
Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.
While I agree I don't think any P2P (of F2P, for that matter) could ever come close to WoW's numbers while WoW is still running, but IMHO while games like WAR tried to copy WoW's features (or maybe, it's more fair to say they attempted to implement similar features) they generally fail to implement those features well.
People can knock WoW all they want, but it's VERY stable and, like it or not, is a very easy game to play (from a game mechanics perspective) and people nowadays like something that's stable and isn't a pain in the neck to run.
I believe that if a game came along that had a similar feature set and did them well, and had the other "intangibles" that WoW has, that game would see good success, though not, as I mentioned before, with the kinds of subs WoW boasts.
That is the whole problem. No one was really waiting for a WoW copy.
Ofcourse people compare features with WoW. But they are not waiting for a WoW 2.
Instead they should have looked more to their own game DAoC and used the good and working RvR features and ideas from that game and use it in Warhammer Online.
The game would have been much more succesful and not people mass quiting like is happening now.
As when you looked at all the message boards from the past years, then you saw people hoping and asking for DAoC style Open RvR, because it was awesome and more important... it was addictively fun with long time replayability!!!
So that's why I am completely baffled that they ignored their own following and large fanbase (they had).
And for the PvE ....sure they could have copied the best and good working features from WoW and used that. Wich now they horribly failed at as well.
Comments
Just for info, the server-caps were initially set at lower limits early on, so looking at med/med or low/low at launch is not the same as now, the bar got moved.
There was a exodus of players, some servers got hit hard others didn't, it was a lottery as to whether you were on a server that had a lot of players leave.
But, there's a point a lot of people here aren't taking into account & that is that the nature of the playerbase is constantly changing, before WoW was released all there was were niche games, the population of gamers that took up WoW on release were made up in the majority by players NEW to MMO's, though there were losses from those niche games to WoW it was nowhere near enough to account for WoW's huge numbers.
The bulk of what Blizzard had join on the WoW franchise were former Blizzard fans of games like Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 & Starcraft which had large solid fanbases of their own, couple that prior existing fanbase with an aggressive marketing & advertising campaign & WoW earned it's place in history, however, it also completely altered the very nature of the marketplace by swamping it with players that were not of the same breed as the niche MMO players, this new MMO gaming playerbase was a lot more casual, a lot more "transitory" in nature.
The average MMO player prior to WoW was typically very loyal to their chosen niche game, a few may try a new game's trial or beta but more often that not they would return ti their old staple but the bulk were happy where they were & didn't flit from game to game, in the post WoW times with the younger, more novelty-driven playerbase that now exists alongside the old fogies of MMO gaming what happens is a new game comes out, a BIG chunk of WoW players try it out, then a large part of that big chunk of WoW players go back to WoW.
The new population does what the old one did but to a larger percentage, just that there's now a lot more of them doing it because the MMO community is vastly bigger since WoW, hence the "Big Swings" in the MMO community between games as they are released, it's human nature to want to see what the new guy on the block is peddling.
WAR is far from a flop, it didn't meet expectations on some counts but it still delivers a great deal of entertainment, no game will appeal to everyone, but I do get the impression a lot of MMO gamers are just burned out trying each new game that comes out & being disappointed it wasn't anything like as thrilling as their first foray into MMO's, newsflash you are no longer an MMO virgin, you got your cherry popped & some of the magic of those first moments can never be recaptured.
You had some credibility before you used the tired/immature "LOL CHERRY POP" analogy.
People aren't looking for their first experience again, each player, depending on their preferances are looking for different things. Some want a sandbox MMO that isn't boring as fuck (IE: Not EVE), some want a MMORPG with a pvp focus and a good combat system (not WAR), some want PVE beyond "Hey, go kill ten of this random creature and return to me plz" (Not LOTRO / WoW).
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.
i make up some random name for a site that has no credibility, then i say my piece in a flame bait of a topic that is titled "why did war flopped?" and i get labeled a troll? sweet this sites great.
ps you shouldnt be talking about names since yours is just as lame as mine
I said it after playing it for one week back in Sep, the game would flop because it is rather boring.
The grand strategical thing put above it isn't interesting enough and forget about roleplaying or the well known TT Lore. No seperate unique armies of Empire or Dwarves or Elves. Clunky and unresponsive did the rest.
So I was called a troll, because I knew that Mythic just wanted to go head to head with the 11.5 ton gorilla of the industry and this product failed to do just that. By a long shot.
It FAILED because it had a strategy.
The strategy was: we LURE in the bored guys of Wow. MJ spoke of it every time he had the chance. Remember him saying "we changed a lot of our content after seeing TBC", the guy is obsessed with Wow and Wow like sub numbers. The planned server park proved it.
And he's backed up with this obsession with his forum fans like Greyhooff and the Disney pic woman. Mythic uses these guys on forums, because that's the exact reason MJ doesn't want proper forums. Always trying "to lure in" and compare the product with Wow within the community
After 7 days of playing I saw this and began saying: "every copy sold of War is pure publicity for WotLK". Because I saw it coming....
War has and had in NO way the capacity to lure in players for longer than the free month and or 2 more "now and then" plays.
The problem with bored Wow players is ... that War is 10 times more boring to them. Oh everyone interested bought it, - a boom in servers - , but after 3 weeks most saw no need to play it longer.
EVEN Darkpony, a fanboy of the first hour, said it in his post recently. After having played War for 3 months it is indeed too boring to continue.
That's why it fails. mmoRPG's should be played at least 6 months to a year.
I hate to say it but even AoC was less boring in its first 20 levels, but they made the mistake of the wrong graphics use in MMO's.
-----
Both games failed in what everyone was hoping for: a new world - a new adventure to play in for the next 2 years ....
Very simply. T3 sucked too much. People were having a great time doing T1 and T2 and then burned out in T3. They left the game in droves in once they got to T3.
This. Very well written.
The PVE in WAR is just extremely boring. The quests extremely simple and a boring grind.
When you leveled up your first char... leveling up a second one or even a third one becomes a true chore!
Scenarios are fun to an extend, but playing the exact same map over and over and over and over becomes extremely boring! Hence, if I want to play small instanced PVP maps I go play an FPS game. At least there due to the modding community I have the choice of hundreds of different well designed custom user maps.
I joined WAR for the Open RvR. The largescale world PVP! Nothing more.
Yet this aspect has to my feeling gotten the least development attention during initial development.
Compaired to DAoC the Open RvR in WAR is a total joke.
Unimaginitive, linear, static and boring!
Tier 3 is a looooong boring grind. So people spend a long time in Tier 3 RvR and when they finally end up in Tier 4 ... they discover that Tier 4 isn't any difference. Only that the excessive CC is pretty much dominating in PVP making everything even more boring and frustrating.
Every damn Keep has the same basic layout... making everything even more boring.
Add to that, that there isn't any concequence... any accomplishment feel at all.
You lock a zone, turn your back a few secs and the enemy has undone your hard work again.
Add to the fact that you have to grind your ass off in the same PQ's and Scenario over and over again to get the required VP to lock a zone ...and people become even more bored out of their skulls.
EVERY person that has spend more then a month in Tier 4 says the same... they have become bored of the linear, static boring open RvR in WAR and the forced scenario and PQ grind to get a zone locked.
And on most servers the population is such an issue that they cannot even manage to lock enough zones to ever see a Fortress Siege, so there people just spend their time Keep swapping for gold bags=gear.
And don't start about Fortress Sieges... as we all know how bad they are. They are even worse then the Keeps.
All we are saying (me and many others) is that Mythic had a great game to learn from and to improve from. A game they developed themselves for christ sakes..... and they didn't!
Cheers
Regarding the ques at launch, Let me explain why we don't have ques anymore.
They can you have 750k players in Tier 1? : No, so we got ques.
Mytic tried to solve it by making more servers available... they solved the problem, but it created servers with low populations once people were out of T1.
So, now they are making it possible to transfer characters and guilds.
Well, my english may not be perfect. I'm from a non-english speaking country so sorry! Don't need to flame people just because of bad grammar tho!?
Dont bother reacting at that troll Miklosan. Just have a look at that persons own name (xbellx777). Seems he hasn't been to school much himself.
i make up some random name for a site that has no credibility, then i say my piece in a flame bait of a topic that is titled "why did war flopped?" and i get labeled a troll? sweet this sites great.
ps you shouldnt be talking about names since yours is just as lame as mine
The problem is that "your piece" is an ignorant and presumptious statement. Internet is global and many, many (like me) do not have english as their first or even second language so they are doing their best to try and communicate and I dont think anyone doesnt understand what he is saying even though they may not agree with it.
And if this site has no credibility then why are you here? You like hurting yourself?
My gaming blog
Uhm, this doesnt make any sense. Servers are not divided by tiers so if the SERVER not the Tier had high population it meant the server did, not just the tier.
Unless Mythic has a real weird way of calculating server population.
My gaming blog
Sorry for the really long post but I tried my best to format everything to help with readability.
Not sure if WAR is dying because I have only played on three servers.
1) Before T3, I don't bother to run around for oRVR unless it's right next to me. Without a mount I feel that by the time I finally find/reach some oRVR, I could've played at least three scenarios. Even with a mount, I still feel that it takes too long sometimes.
2) The CC is really excessive imho. After the much praised CC patch, I am having even more problems because I am always in "you are disabled" state.
3) Too many things don't work. I played a tank but since I can only guard people in my party, I rarely get to use it. Even something simple like buying multiple copies of ingredients (like water or vials) from vendors (via holding shift & clicking), I'll sometimes need to use /reloadgi or purchase my ingredients one at a time.
4A) I think the communication is HORRIBLE. I used to play a Rune Priest when the master runes would cause memory leaks. It was an issue that was all over the WHA forums and I've submitted over 10 bug reports. No response. Not even something like, we're looking at this issue but it's proving difficult to fix. At least a response like this would let me know that they're aware of what's peeving me off. Instead, it's the silent treatment and after weeks it's mentioned in a hot fix or patch. My frustration would be much less all this time if I just knew they were aware of the issue but they couldn't even do that for myself or any of the hundreds of posters that complained of this bug.
4B) Another example of terrible feedback --> http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229804
4C) I only seem to see posts by them when it's time for them to beat their chests about what they've just fixed or how great they are.
5) I do not feel like I am in a world when playing WAR. It feels too linear to me.
6) I love the PQ but after the first couple months I've had a very hard time finding people willing to do them.
7) I usually play melee and Keep Defense/Offense is boring to me. If I'm not on the RAM, then I'm pounding away at the door. Are there any efforts to implement lock-picking for melee (another broken skill for melee)? Once again because they never communicate on bugs/issues I have no idea if they are aware or even care about it.
8) I've attacked/defended various keeps & bo and the experience is always the same. For the keeps: can't they at least randomize the lord's abilities or something? Maybe randomize the layout or randomize the number/abilities of the lord's henchmen? Randomize the number of ramps? I don't know just randomize something. It's just one HUGE zerg up the stairs & the lord is usually dead a few seconds after I land my first attack. There’s all these different types of scenarios, so surely they can make different kinds of keeps.
---------------------------------------
I can't believe this is the same company that made DAOC. I was really wished that they would remake DAOC with the WAR IP. I just don't understand why they decided to WOW-enize their game so much when they had a succesful track record with DAOC.
--You can't copy WOW and expect to pull the WOW players unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard.
--You can't copy EVE and expect to get the EVE players unless you do the EVE experience better than CCP.
Same with any established game/business.
I really feel that they underestimated how low burned out WOW-players have set their bar when seeking their next MMO.
I still feel that WAR has the potential to turn things around and I am hoping they can. However, I am not going to be paying them while I feel there’s so much that needs to be improved.
WAR flopped?
last time I checked the WAR servers had good activity, sure the game isnt WoW (population wise)
But its still a fun game, the problems people have with it aren't game breaking. the game just needs to tweak certain features a bit and it goes from good to excellent.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I am going to have to disagree with this portion of what you wrote.
Mythic claimed to have moved the server caps up, but they only did this right at the time when the first free months were ending. They knew a lot of people were leaving and they only announced this in some interview on some fan site. Why would Mythic have a need to raise caps on servers when there was zero need to do so. Servers were already dying, so it wasn't like they needed room for more people to join.
That statement was 100% pure PR spin. They said that in an attempt to explain away why all the servers were showing low and medium when they used to say heavy/full. I was looking for a new server to transfer to at that time and I can tell you there wasn't some overnight change that was caused by a population cap raise. The decline in server loads was slow and steady, not something that happened one night after Mythic changed the loads.
Just think about it for one second. Why would Mythic make a change like this, that solved no problem and only makes the game look like it is losing subscribers. The only logical reason is that it was a smoke screen to hide what was already happening.
One last thing I would like to point out that I think you are incorrect about. Gamers are gamers no matter where you go. It isn't like people who played old mmos are some sort of super humans in comparison to people who just started in the last few years. People are the same everywhere and a start date doesn't really change that. There is far more similarities between the two segments of games you point to than you might think.
I am going to have to disagree with this portion of what you wrote.
Mythic claimed to have moved the server caps up, but they only did this right at the time when the first free months were ending. They knew a lot of people were leaving and they only announced this in some interview on some fan site. Why would Mythic have a need to raise caps on servers when there was zero need to do so. Servers were already dying, so it wasn't like they needed room for more people to join.
That statement was 100% pure PR spin. They said that in an attempt to explain away why all the servers were showing low and medium when they used to say heavy/full. I was looking for a new server to transfer to at that time and I can tell you there wasn't some overnight change that was caused by a population cap raise. The decline in server loads was slow and steady, not something that happened one night after Mythic changed the loads.
Just think about it for one second. Why would Mythic make a change like this, that solved no problem and only makes the game look like it is losing subscribers. The only logical reason is that it was a smoke screen to hide what was already happening.
One last thing I would like to point out that I think you are incorrect about. Gamers are gamers no matter where you go. It isn't like people who played old mmos are some sort of super humans in comparison to people who just started in the last few years. People are the same everywhere and a start date doesn't really change that. There is far more similarities between the two segments of games you point to than you might think.
On my server queues were gone all a sudden. Wasnt just after free month btw. So on a certain day more than 3hour worth off queue just left the game? Right.
Server went from high/high to med/med.
Gamers are not the same everywhere. Try and feel the difference between the loads of clans that start and die evey month in a shooter. And the atmosphere in a guild thats older then some games. If you dont notice a difference. Thats very strange.
Just in general btw, arguments like "everyone says after x time of playing". Don't insinuate things as a truth, when ya blatantly know they arent.
bugs
they where there at the start where teh game has the new game buzz
the buzz was killed
this cuases poor retension
when you have a game where players p2p you cant just change the intire game or have it overly buggy
then with pvp you got balance issues and balancing a pvp is problem matic as it will change chars
the launch was not smooth enough it needed a long open beta
Like I said, I happened to be watching server loads to see which server would make a good new home right around this time, because my server was already dead. There was not some drop across the board due to some less than talked about population cap increase. I saw the slow and steady decline as choice after choice I picked dropped from heavy to medium. It wasn't just some overnight occurance.
Something I am curious about is what server had a 3 hour que anywhere after the free month or close to it? I know my server went from medium to low the day after the three top guilds all decided to reroll on another server, but to my knowledge there wasn't any server US side that had 3 hour ques that far into release. Around this time I could count the number of heavy servers on 1 hand most nights and that is counting both factions.
As for players being the same, they are for the most part. Gamers are gamers and for the most part share identical values and styles. Skuz was making a point that something things are different now due to "fps" types playing mmos. He focuses on the large swings in players trying new games and returning to old games as if the people making the choice are the biggest factor. I disagree with that and think gamers are gamers for the most part. What he overlooks is that most of the games release post-wow era have been total crap or at best not even close to as good as the game they departed. There has been very little compelling reason for people to leave their old games for new games. Where earlier mmos all sort of suffered rough launches and it was more or less accepted to pay a fee while companies fixed their game over the next several months/years.
Games are not failing now because the new breed of mmo players just won't leave their old game. Games are falling down now, because people have more options. There isn't really a need to pay for some unfinished game when they can simply go back to an established game and wait for the next release to come out. However those days too are going to slow down as pretty much all the big blockbusters have made their debute.
A good game will pull old players, new players and everything in between if it is crafted well enough.
This lol
reading through a lot of these posts and I have to comment.
First, the game is not failing. Has it lost members? yes. Do some things need to be fixed? yes. So has and does every other MMO out there. This game, to me granted, has the best PvP so far implemented. Don't name me other games that are better cuz as I said, this is my opionion and I probably haven't played them.
Mythic has also started consolidating the servers. They started with way, way too many to begin with and this caused problems on some servers, others were the opposite. So what do they do at the time instead of raise the pop cap? Clone servers. That was a disaster. They raised the pop cap after that but should have well before as well as offered free server transfers then instead of after. Whoops. But the game didn't fail, it's still going strong.
Things they could do better? There is a lot, just like any other MMO. Character customization is one I think that needs to be especially looked at. As for PvP balance, zog off. It's not that friggin' bad. I play a shaman and get punted all over the place and die all the time. It's war people, you're gonna die. And balance is something again that all MMOs must and do focus on so quit yer whinin' already.
I don't have firm numbers as Mythic hasn't released them yet but I can say for my server on Phoenix Throne, it's still going strong and mostly balanced, perhaps more in favor of order even. Other servers, maybe not as well but with such a plethora of new MMOs on the horizon and open beta going strong in them now, it's not surprising the numbers are down here, for now. This is a great game, to me, and I can only see it getting better. If not, well then I'll pack me waaaghstik and move on to 40k when it comes out. Even then I'll still stick around here for the PvP.
-Gorlik Pustular
Da Convincer of Anti-Sanctus Chaotica
The game isnt failing.. it already failed
Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale. The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded. I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.
Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale. The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded. I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.
I do have high standards...
For all the hype Warhammer going in, yes it could be considered a failure. Did it do a lot of box sales and have intial large numbers of subscribers? yes,, but the numbers of people who would play this game long term have dropped. My guild has had, including myself 10 people subscribe to other games. I'm pretty sure there are many people who can say the same.
The game did not deliver what was promised at all, War Everywhere! It is scenario ridden, the only rvr that happens is in 10% of any tiers map, the rewards system is bunk, the CC is ridiculous, the PvE areas are stagnant with no epic feel to them, the servers can't handle a large raid, keep swapping is more prevalent than pvp.
Warhammer is surviiving, thriving (however you want to put it) because there really aren't many good games out. WoW has their fanbase because they feel it's good, EvE is a good game imo but it is a niche game being in space and all. There are fans of AoC but many are turned off by it's previous problems at release. There are games like StarWars, Star Trek, Darkfall, Mortal down the pipeline but they cater to certain crowds or they face a very weary customer base due to a myriad of reasons.
All in all, Mythic should be grateful they didn't release WaR at any other time than now. Lack of competition is helping them way much more than anyone thinking this is a good game.
I so much agree with this statement. It seems like the MMORPG industry is in crisis because almost all devs look at WoWs subscription numbers and think if they copy WoWs features and add their own twist then they will get similar subscription numbers.
But as you say you wont do that unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard and that is a very hard thing to do. For one Blizzard is an excellent company that always hold a very high standard of their games and second they know the Warcraft IP better than anyone else so trying to make a better WoW copy us very hard if not impossible.
Hopefully after the many semi-failures such as AoC and WAR the devs realise this and try to be innovative instead of copying other companies product. Not saying that WAR is a complete copy of WoW but it has many elements, the very linear progression and lenient death penalties for one thing, that is very similar to WoW and when people see this they probably think. Hey this is like WoW then why dont I play WoW instead which has ten times the number of people and many times the content than this game?
Devs wake up!
My gaming blog
Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.
My gaming blog
While I agree I don't think any P2P (of F2P, for that matter) could ever come close to WoW's numbers while WoW is still running, but IMHO while games like WAR tried to copy WoW's features (or maybe, it's more fair to say they attempted to implement similar features) they generally fail to implement those features well.
People can knock WoW all they want, but it's VERY stable and, like it or not, is a very easy game to play (from a game mechanics perspective) and people nowadays like something that's stable and isn't a pain in the neck to run.
I believe that if a game came along that had a similar feature set and did them well, and had the other "intangibles" that WoW has, that game would see good success, though not, as I mentioned before, with the kinds of subs WoW boasts.
That is the whole problem. No one was really waiting for a WoW copy.
Ofcourse people compare features with WoW. But they are not waiting for a WoW 2.
Instead they should have looked more to their own game DAoC and used the good and working RvR features and ideas from that game and use it in Warhammer Online.
The game would have been much more succesful and not people mass quiting like is happening now.
As when you looked at all the message boards from the past years, then you saw people hoping and asking for DAoC style Open RvR, because it was awesome and more important... it was addictively fun with long time replayability!!!
So that's why I am completely baffled that they ignored their own following and large fanbase (they had).
And for the PvE ....sure they could have copied the best and good working features from WoW and used that. Wich now they horribly failed at as well.
Cheers