Oh I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. LotRO, AoC, and Guild Wars (if you consider that an MMO) all at least tried to weave story telling into their games... some with more success than others. But none I can think of gave you choices and branching arcs as ToR is promising. I'm cautiously optimistic that if Bioware pulls this off, it will be something worth while.
I'd also throw Asheron's Call into that mix. That Turbine team added to the ever evolving story of the world of Dereth every month. They even took over major NPCs every now and then and interacted with the playerbase.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Oh I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. LotRO, AoC, and Guild Wars (if you consider that an MMO) all at least tried to weave story telling into their games... some with more success than others. But none I can think of gave you choices and branching arcs as ToR is promising. I'm cautiously optimistic that if Bioware pulls this off, it will be something worth while.
Exactly .. i think a lot of the story mechanics in TOR will be new. Sure, even hack-n-slash quests have a 50 word quest text that gives some stories. So it is a matter of degree and mechanics.
Bioware has touted the "choice matter" mantra in TOR and that would be something new.
Oh I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. LotRO, AoC, and Guild Wars (if you consider that an MMO) all at least tried to weave story telling into their games... some with more success than others. But none I can think of gave you choices and branching arcs as ToR is promising. I'm cautiously optimistic that if Bioware pulls this off, it will be something worth while.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
Originally posted by admriker4 it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
Originally posted by admriker4 it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
They don't have to be mutally exclusive. Now, go tell that to these companies making these games as they seem to have issues with putting together a good mix of themepark and sandbox qualitites. They are the ones viewing it as an all or nothing decision.
Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course). And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story", it is getting increasingly clear that Bioware is pretty much planning on players following their laid out story for npc hero accolades.
I mean, sure, you don't have to pay for a subscription and play the game, and in that perspective you aren't being forced. Unfortunately, though, for many of us who enjoy the SW IP, that's the route we are going to have to take. Again, it would be great if every game company incorporated a built in story for those who have neither the time or inclination to create their own original one as well as those elements that allow those who want to deviate off the beaten path a means to do so. From the interviews so far, though, it certainly does not look like Bioware plans to allow such a choice.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story"...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.
I'm with the OP on this.
LOTRO was originally supposed to be so heavily story-driven that it was going to instance players in different versions of areas based on their position in the story.
As much as I am a hard-core fan of Tolkien's books, that game design in an mmo killed my interest in the game. It's a single-player game with monthly fees.
It seemed to have the same effect on those who beta'ed because in the final months before release, that game design was abandoned for something more like WoW - i.e. there are quests with storylines, but players aren't forced to follow them.
Having immensely enjoyed KOTR I & II, I was initially very excited to hear that an mmo was in development. I don't finish every game I buy - I often get bored with them - but the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it.
But mmos aren't about a spectator watching a story unfold - they're about players engaging with a fictional online world with other players. Story elements necessarily detract from that to some degree.
I only ever played SWG post NGE and that incredibly long story-driven quest arc killed my interest long before my free-trial period expired. It was a totally single-player experience. I saw a few other players but in all cases but one, they were at different stages of the arc and therefore had no interest in teaming.
Give me a few games that are not story driven theme parks that have long-term appeal>>>>maybe one or two out there ?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Story driven mmos sound really wrong. Seriously... you are the one hero that saves everyone... um.. you and all the other players? That kind of gameplay is for single player games and should stay like that
I am really , really hoping, that the story-driven content they are using will be for character progression only. As in how you complete the quest determine what skills you advance. And not in a generic way, like you killed the guy you get sith xp, or you let him live you get jedi xp. There is some really cool things you could do with that. I think it would be kinda cool if you could pick jedi but you didnt find out what kinda of jedi you were until half way to max level. And it took everything you did and what choices you made into account when it determining what type of jedi you would be and what skills you have access to for the last half of levels.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Story driven mmos sound really wrong. Seriously... you are the one hero that saves everyone... um.. you and all the other players? That kind of gameplay is for single player games and should stay like that
The story does not drive the game. It just gives the player extra content that can be viewed and followed or ignored. The choice is up to the player as it should be.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Originally posted by admriker4 it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
They don't have to be mutally exclusive. Now, go tell that to these companies making these games as they seem to have issues with putting together a good mix of themepark and sandbox qualitites. They are the ones viewing it as an all or nothing decision.
Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course). And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story", it is getting increasingly clear that Bioware is pretty much planning on players following their laid out story for npc hero accolades.
I mean, sure, you don't have to pay for a subscription and play the game, and in that perspective you aren't being forced. Unfortunately, though, for many of us who enjoy the SW IP, that's the route we are going to have to take. Again, it would be great if every game company incorporated a built in story for those who have neither the time or inclination to create their own original one as well as those elements that allow those who want to deviate off the beaten path a means to do so. From the interviews so far, though, it certainly does not look like Bioware plans to allow such a choice.
well said.
I have no hate for theme park MMO's. Ive played and enjoyed WoW and LOTR. But they have short-term appeal.
I cant fathom why a developer must insist on dictating playstyle to the players. What is so wrong about giving us all options and letting us choose if we wish to be the hero, a moisture farmer, something in between, and more.
In star wars galaxies I wrote my own book. I made my own story. I quested if i wanted. Hunted for resources to fill a contract from a crafter. I did pvp if a bounty hunter dared find me. I explored the depths of each planet. The story never ended. The Old Republic sounds like the complete opposite of that. Im reading someone else' book. Im following their story. Yes i can choose different story arcs within that story, but its still someone else tale. And once I complete that last quest the story ends (and thus the game for me) The worst part is Im forced into the role of "hero" I dont want to be the hero and I dont want to be forced to quest. SWG worked because it gave us both options. There were quests but the npc didnt have those "hey talk to me" marks above their heads. You actually had to explore and find the npcs that ga ve out quests. Or you could just skip questing alltogether and do your own thing. Bioware is making the same mistake Funcom did with Age of Conan. The game was great for the first 20 levels but once the story fizzled so did the game. In short, no developer can make a theme park experience fun forever unless they constantly add content every week. Sorry Bioware, I love your single player games but this is a different animal. In MMO's I want to play in a virtual world, not be some hero clone like everyone else.
I sure hope Bioware reconsiders this whole story-driven Im the hero theme
LOTRO is a good example of a well done story based mmo. If you chose to you can completely ignore the books, I have 6 lvl 20 alts that do nothing but craft some with max abilities.
Now if you expect that Bioware is in some way trying to make things all better for swg vets you will be disappointed for certain because it's simply not what they are making and I am glad for that personally.
I have a hard time seeing what makes you think SWGs awful quest system was a good thing, bypassing questing in swg often was done simply because the goofy random generator was so generic you hardly had a reason to use it, we would often get a group and a few would grab quests since they were always so bugged and the few who did actually offer quests often had bugs or were so vague they were hardly worth completing.
My friend the reason swg was such a sandbox was simply because SOE never actually gave us anything else to do but "log in and figure out something to do". Do you remember when they finally opened the Rebel theme Park? Hands down the worse excuse for an instance/story arc I've ever seen in an mmo. Again I hope at the least SWTOR can remind me of LOTRO with a clearly defined role for my character to aspire to along with the ability to deviate as I see fit from the beaten path and create my own story as well, in this day and age we really need to see that we are worth the effort for these companies to aspire to offer us more instead of less which like this post points out is too often the case with us lately.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Originally posted by Khalathwyr And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story"...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
You wrote the story of Hanshotfirst, the great droid engineer who sat in his workshop all day clicking on the same schematics and checking his factories to put deeds on his vendors
It's a riveting tale, really it is.
if you don't see my point, you're an idiot anyway
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.
Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes?
Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.
If your defining "story-driven" as only quests where you have a choice then yes TOR will be unique. I personally dont make that distinction. I consider all MMO's that focus on questing as story-driven. No I cant actually choose a different reaction within a quest like TOR will offer but so what. Its still at its core no different than WoW or any other clone like it. Its focus is quests / story.
The majority of today's MMO's are story-driven MMO's. Most recent are Lord of the Rings and Age of Conan. Ironically both have flopped but LOTR has received numerous awards because it is a decent quality game.
WoW is also story-driven. The entire game till lvl 80 is quest based, which is where your story comes from. Skip the quests and you dont get the story.
These games have no long-term appeal to me anyway. Like I said, once ive done the quests the game is over. The only option is to sit around and wait for the developer to add more stories / quests.And when those are done, its wait some more. This is the fatal flaw of quest-based games. Without constantly adding new content, the game gets boring.
LOTR is a prime example. Great graphics, great quests, clean bug-free, but i never can play for longer than a month at a time because i run out of things to do.
In a virtual world MMO like SWG I never ran out of things to do. Had SOE fixed that game and didnt overhaul it, Id still be there. Instead Im playing these entertaining but short-term games.
Age of Conan was also heavily story driven. And it had a pretty dam good story and nice quests. But once you left the island after lvl 20 the game totally died.
Will people stick around once they burn through the content of TOR ? Not if the game is focused on stories. There wont be anything left to do once the story is done
Players stick around games like EVE and SWG (Before the changes) because there is no true endgame
I do all of the things you just mentioned in LOTRO my main is an explorer who can talior/forestry/prospect and usually have to take an hour or two of play time to fill orders for mats which is my specialty outside of working on tailor guild materials oh and crafting for faction items (get my point). You want a Star Wars game in the old swg mold and it is a redundant request and that is from a player of pre cu swg, you claim swg is great because it gave you all these options when the plain and simple truth is it offered no options there was no linear material and that is in my opinion pointless in an mmo based on a particular ip once again if you chose to get into what other features a game offers is your choice in the case of some that is not much of an option (AOC crafting) but in others (LOTRO) it atleast ruvaks anything we were given in swg.
The real question here is what exactly is it about an mmo that offered you a linear story makes you feel like it has to be followed? Now you can say you are unhappy with the crafting systems and such of some games but you have to see how little sense it makes to say that swg was great because they didn't even offer you a goal.
I crafted in swg and do much more crafting in lotro and would have to say hands down lotro craft system kills swgs in any of its forms so why exactly could that not be possible for you?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
And to think this all started with a few movies back in the day. Great story lines they had too. Where would you be without them.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Originally posted by Khalathwyr And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story"...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right ).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course).
Okay, so take out the story part. Now what? Instead of two ways to progress and/or experience content, now you only have one: mob grinding. And you have less content to boot. This is more freedom? This isn't being "forced" into a particular playstyle?
Originally posted by green13 Having immensely enjoyed KOTR I & II, I was initially very excited to hear that an mmo was in development. I don't finish every game I buy - I often get bored with them - but the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it.But mmos aren't about a spectator watching a story unfold - they're about players engaging with a fictional online world with other players. Story elements necessarily detract from that to some degree.
First of all, you "immensely" enjoyed KotOR II... for the "engaging" story? Really?? Secondly, why must story elements "necessarily detract" from a fictional online world with other players... to *any* degree? Last, but not least, you were merely a spectator watching a story unfold in either of the KotOR games? How did you manage that?
Originally posted by admriker4 I cant fathom why a developer must insist on dictating playstyle to the players. What is so wrong about giving us all options and letting us choose if we wish to be the hero, a moisture farmer, something in between, and more.
Please explain to me how your playstyle was "dictated" to you in either WoW or LotRO... particularly LotRO, where as I understand it, you DO have the option of pursuing a career in farming?
Originally posted by Khalathwyr And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story"...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right ).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
While I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response, I've got to say I'm still finding it a bit of a stretch.
Sure, I get it. For some folks, crafting a vase and using it to decorate a house is the cat's pajamas. But let's be honest, is it a story any of us would be eager to pay $8-12 to sit in a theater and watch for two and a half hours... even if it were accompanied by a great John Williams soundtrack? Really??
Look, I'm not saying people shouldn't have the option to pursue such interests in a game... even this game. But should it come at the expense of truly great story telling, by a developer known and revered for storying telling... in a game based on Star Wars??
If the answer in way, shape, or form resembles "yes", then I'm sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course).
Okay, so take out the story part. Now what? Instead of two ways to progress and/or experience content, now you only have one: mob grinding. And you have less content to boot. This is more freedom? This isn't being "forced" into a particular playstyle?
...
What you state is true however it is not the angle I would approach the issue. Instead, I would leave in the story and the mob grinding and add a very well developed, expansive crafting, housing and other social positive systems (in contrast, systems that directly result in violence I would call social negative systems; These terms, however, by no way are a judgement of the actions, just an easy way for me to distinguish the two, that of building or bringing something into the world vs taking something out of it.).
And in truth, even with story it will most often involve mob grinding. I mean, to look at it at base level, in my opinion Story equates to, subjectively, better written words on the screen, and most likely more of such words, that end with you going out and grinding X amount of mobs. Most missions/quest I believe will result in you killing in this fashion. So to me, ultimately, Story is still mob grinding.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story"...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right ).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
While I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response, I've got to say I'm still finding it a bit of a stretch.
Sure, I get it. For some folks, crafting a vase and using it to decorate a house is the cat's pajamas. But let's be honest, is it a story any of us would be eager to pay $8-12 to sit in a theater and watch for two and a half hours... even if it were accompanied by a great John Williams soundtrack? Really??
Look, I'm not saying people shouldn't have the option to pursue such interests in a game... even this game. But should it come at the expense of truly great story telling, by a developer known and revered for storying telling... in a game based on Star Wars??
If the answer in way, shape, or form resembles "yes", then I'm sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hehe, this makes me think you actually haven't really been reading what I have been writing.
No where have I ever stated that Bioware should dump their efforts on story. I think you are just lumping me into a perception that you have of other posters. Even in my response that you are here responding to I state fairly plainly that the pre-packaged story option should be available for those of you who don't have the time or inclination to go about creating your own, but also the elements should be there so that those of us who don't want to be iconic, heroic or showered with npc accolades but instead want to build a house and term it my storefront, decorate the house in a manner so that when you enter it it looks like a store inside, and having a usefull existence making things other players in general can use.
Now, maybe that message got lost because I am often gregarious so I will try to cut this short. I am all for story, but also for the elements I have described above and in other posts. I think having both makes for a better overall game, it makes it inclusive of more people. I don't think that Rich Vogel, Gordon Walton and other key decision makers on this project share that view.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr ...And in truth, even with story it will most often involve mob grinding. I mean, to look at it at base level, in my opinion Story equates to, subjectively, better written words on the screen, and most likely more of such words, that end with you going out and grinding X amount of mobs. Most missions/quest I believe will result in you killing in this fashion. So to me, ultimately, Story is still mob grinding.
You may be right, though I don't recall any of that in previous Bioware games... particularly those that were heralded for their stories. Now if this "fourth pillar" of MMO development Bioware keeps harping on turns out to be little more than WoW-styled questing, aka: go here, kill 27 bantha, return with 12 enraged bantha skins... you'd better believe I'll be the first person here criticizing what a colossal disappointment that is.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Hehe, this makes me think you actually haven't really been reading what I have been writing.
No, I have and you're right. You've been quite reasonable, and I haven't given you personally enough credit for that. My response (though it encompassed a huge quote of yours) was not directed specifically at you, but rather the OP and those of like mind.
BTW, as for Rich Vogel, I think I've expressed already (in this thread or one of the others) I'm not exactly brimming with confidence about his contributions to this title either. I'm not gonna crucify the guy, but his previous work with SWG struck me as "out of touch" at best.
Oh I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. LotRO, AoC, and Guild Wars (if you consider that an MMO) all at least tried to weave story telling into their games... some with more success than others. But none I can think of gave you choices and branching arcs as ToR is promising. I'm cautiously optimistic that if Bioware pulls this off, it will be something worth while.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
I wish to be entertained ... just like tv shows and all the SP games are about. Games are entertainment. Story driven theme park is a great new way for this kind of games.
3-4 years ... u r JOKING. Why would i want to play the same game for so many YEARS. There is no shortage of games and other types of entertainment out there. You will be gimping yourself if you spend so much time on ONE game.
Even WOW .. wow has tons of content and it is great but I don't expect it to last forever. I will still sub, don't get me wrong .. but my play time has drastically decreased since i leveled to 80 & geared up. I haven't even done much raid (I don't raid much except PUG .. i am casual).
I don't expect to still play WOW 3-5 years down the road, unless they keep on putting out very good xpacks.
Oh btw, i guess even theme park games can last a long time if they put out xpack after xpack.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr ...And in truth, even with story it will most often involve mob grinding. I mean, to look at it at base level, in my opinion Story equates to, subjectively, better written words on the screen, and most likely more of such words, that end with you going out and grinding X amount of mobs. Most missions/quest I believe will result in you killing in this fashion. So to me, ultimately, Story is still mob grinding.
You may be right, though I don't recall any of that in previous Bioware games... particularly those that were heralded for their stories. Now if this "fourth pillar" of MMO development Bioware keeps harping on turns out to be little more than WoW-styled questing, aka: go here, kill 27 bantha, return with 12 enraged bantha skins... you'd better believe I'll be the first person here criticizing what a colossal disappointment that is.
hmm .... didn't u read about bioware's statement about choices matter? I am sure there are still kill quests .. but if those quests are constructed in a more story oriented fashion (u can decide whether to save this guy or killl him .. for example) .. i am fine.
Comments
I'd also throw Asheron's Call into that mix. That Turbine team added to the ever evolving story of the world of Dereth every month. They even took over major NPCs every now and then and interacted with the playerbase.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Exactly .. i think a lot of the story mechanics in TOR will be new. Sure, even hack-n-slash quests have a 50 word quest text that gives some stories. So it is a matter of degree and mechanics.
Bioware has touted the "choice matter" mantra in TOR and that would be something new.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
They don't have to be mutally exclusive. Now, go tell that to these companies making these games as they seem to have issues with putting together a good mix of themepark and sandbox qualitites. They are the ones viewing it as an all or nothing decision.
Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course). And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story", it is getting increasingly clear that Bioware is pretty much planning on players following their laid out story for npc hero accolades.
I mean, sure, you don't have to pay for a subscription and play the game, and in that perspective you aren't being forced. Unfortunately, though, for many of us who enjoy the SW IP, that's the route we are going to have to take. Again, it would be great if every game company incorporated a built in story for those who have neither the time or inclination to create their own original one as well as those elements that allow those who want to deviate off the beaten path a means to do so. From the interviews so far, though, it certainly does not look like Bioware plans to allow such a choice.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
I'm with the OP on this.
LOTRO was originally supposed to be so heavily story-driven that it was going to instance players in different versions of areas based on their position in the story.
As much as I am a hard-core fan of Tolkien's books, that game design in an mmo killed my interest in the game. It's a single-player game with monthly fees.
It seemed to have the same effect on those who beta'ed because in the final months before release, that game design was abandoned for something more like WoW - i.e. there are quests with storylines, but players aren't forced to follow them.
Having immensely enjoyed KOTR I & II, I was initially very excited to hear that an mmo was in development. I don't finish every game I buy - I often get bored with them - but the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it.
But mmos aren't about a spectator watching a story unfold - they're about players engaging with a fictional online world with other players. Story elements necessarily detract from that to some degree.
I only ever played SWG post NGE and that incredibly long story-driven quest arc killed my interest long before my free-trial period expired. It was a totally single-player experience. I saw a few other players but in all cases but one, they were at different stages of the arc and therefore had no interest in teaming.
I say "BOOOO!!!!" to story-driven mmos.
Give me a few games that are not story driven theme parks that have long-term appeal>>>>maybe one or two out there ?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Story driven mmos sound really wrong. Seriously... you are the one hero that saves everyone... um.. you and all the other players? That kind of gameplay is for single player games and should stay like that
I am really , really hoping, that the story-driven content they are using will be for character progression only. As in how you complete the quest determine what skills you advance. And not in a generic way, like you killed the guy you get sith xp, or you let him live you get jedi xp. There is some really cool things you could do with that. I think it would be kinda cool if you could pick jedi but you didnt find out what kinda of jedi you were until half way to max level. And it took everything you did and what choices you made into account when it determining what type of jedi you would be and what skills you have access to for the last half of levels.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The story does not drive the game. It just gives the player extra content that can be viewed and followed or ignored. The choice is up to the player as it should be.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Why does one have to be mutually exclusive to the other? And who the hell is talking about forcing anything on anyone?
They don't have to be mutally exclusive. Now, go tell that to these companies making these games as they seem to have issues with putting together a good mix of themepark and sandbox qualitites. They are the ones viewing it as an all or nothing decision.
Well, if you play the game and the only ways to progress and/or experience content is by either mob grinding or follow the "story" laid out by Bioware, then in a sense you are forced to follow that story (unless you love to grind mobs, of course). And with intimations of how they are viewing crafting, which often houses the skills/abilities that are instrumental in many what players term as "making their own story", it is getting increasingly clear that Bioware is pretty much planning on players following their laid out story for npc hero accolades.
I mean, sure, you don't have to pay for a subscription and play the game, and in that perspective you aren't being forced. Unfortunately, though, for many of us who enjoy the SW IP, that's the route we are going to have to take. Again, it would be great if every game company incorporated a built in story for those who have neither the time or inclination to create their own original one as well as those elements that allow those who want to deviate off the beaten path a means to do so. From the interviews so far, though, it certainly does not look like Bioware plans to allow such a choice.
well said.
I have no hate for theme park MMO's. Ive played and enjoyed WoW and LOTR. But they have short-term appeal.
I cant fathom why a developer must insist on dictating playstyle to the players. What is so wrong about giving us all options and letting us choose if we wish to be the hero, a moisture farmer, something in between, and more.
LOTRO is a good example of a well done story based mmo. If you chose to you can completely ignore the books, I have 6 lvl 20 alts that do nothing but craft some with max abilities.
Now if you expect that Bioware is in some way trying to make things all better for swg vets you will be disappointed for certain because it's simply not what they are making and I am glad for that personally.
I have a hard time seeing what makes you think SWGs awful quest system was a good thing, bypassing questing in swg often was done simply because the goofy random generator was so generic you hardly had a reason to use it, we would often get a group and a few would grab quests since they were always so bugged and the few who did actually offer quests often had bugs or were so vague they were hardly worth completing.
My friend the reason swg was such a sandbox was simply because SOE never actually gave us anything else to do but "log in and figure out something to do". Do you remember when they finally opened the Rebel theme Park? Hands down the worse excuse for an instance/story arc I've ever seen in an mmo. Again I hope at the least SWTOR can remind me of LOTRO with a clearly defined role for my character to aspire to along with the ability to deviate as I see fit from the beaten path and create my own story as well, in this day and age we really need to see that we are worth the effort for these companies to aspire to offer us more instead of less which like this post points out is too often the case with us lately.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
You wrote the story of Hanshotfirst, the great droid engineer who sat in his workshop all day clicking on the same schematics and checking his factories to put deeds on his vendors
It's a riveting tale, really it is.
if you don't see my point, you're an idiot anyway
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
If your defining "story-driven" as only quests where you have a choice then yes TOR will be unique. I personally dont make that distinction. I consider all MMO's that focus on questing as story-driven. No I cant actually choose a different reaction within a quest like TOR will offer but so what. Its still at its core no different than WoW or any other clone like it. Its focus is quests / story.
The majority of today's MMO's are story-driven MMO's. Most recent are Lord of the Rings and Age of Conan. Ironically both have flopped but LOTR has received numerous awards because it is a decent quality game.
WoW is also story-driven. The entire game till lvl 80 is quest based, which is where your story comes from. Skip the quests and you dont get the story.
These games have no long-term appeal to me anyway. Like I said, once ive done the quests the game is over. The only option is to sit around and wait for the developer to add more stories / quests.And when those are done, its wait some more. This is the fatal flaw of quest-based games. Without constantly adding new content, the game gets boring.
LOTR is a prime example. Great graphics, great quests, clean bug-free, but i never can play for longer than a month at a time because i run out of things to do.
In a virtual world MMO like SWG I never ran out of things to do. Had SOE fixed that game and didnt overhaul it, Id still be there. Instead Im playing these entertaining but short-term games.
Age of Conan was also heavily story driven. And it had a pretty dam good story and nice quests. But once you left the island after lvl 20 the game totally died.
Will people stick around once they burn through the content of TOR ? Not if the game is focused on stories. There wont be anything left to do once the story is done
Players stick around games like EVE and SWG (Before the changes) because there is no true endgame
I do all of the things you just mentioned in LOTRO my main is an explorer who can talior/forestry/prospect and usually have to take an hour or two of play time to fill orders for mats which is my specialty outside of working on tailor guild materials oh and crafting for faction items (get my point). You want a Star Wars game in the old swg mold and it is a redundant request and that is from a player of pre cu swg, you claim swg is great because it gave you all these options when the plain and simple truth is it offered no options there was no linear material and that is in my opinion pointless in an mmo based on a particular ip once again if you chose to get into what other features a game offers is your choice in the case of some that is not much of an option (AOC crafting) but in others (LOTRO) it atleast ruvaks anything we were given in swg.
The real question here is what exactly is it about an mmo that offered you a linear story makes you feel like it has to be followed? Now you can say you are unhappy with the crafting systems and such of some games but you have to see how little sense it makes to say that swg was great because they didn't even offer you a goal.
I crafted in swg and do much more crafting in lotro and would have to say hands down lotro craft system kills swgs in any of its forms so why exactly could that not be possible for you?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
And to think this all started with a few movies back in the day. Great story lines they had too. Where would you be without them.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right
).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Allow me to address something I missed earlier...
Okay, so take out the story part. Now what? Instead of two ways to progress and/or experience content, now you only have one: mob grinding. And you have less content to boot. This is more freedom? This isn't being "forced" into a particular playstyle?
First of all, you "immensely" enjoyed KotOR II... for the "engaging" story? Really?? Secondly, why must story elements "necessarily detract" from a fictional online world with other players... to *any* degree? Last, but not least, you were merely a spectator watching a story unfold in either of the KotOR games? How did you manage that?
Please explain to me how your playstyle was "dictated" to you in either WoW or LotRO... particularly LotRO, where as I understand it, you DO have the option of pursuing a career in farming?
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right
).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
While I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response, I've got to say I'm still finding it a bit of a stretch.
Sure, I get it. For some folks, crafting a vase and using it to decorate a house is the cat's pajamas. But let's be honest, is it a story any of us would be eager to pay $8-12 to sit in a theater and watch for two and a half hours... even if it were accompanied by a great John Williams soundtrack? Really??
Look, I'm not saying people shouldn't have the option to pursue such interests in a game... even this game. But should it come at the expense of truly great story telling, by a developer known and revered for storying telling... in a game based on Star Wars??
If the answer in way, shape, or form resembles "yes", then I'm sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Okay, so take out the story part. Now what? Instead of two ways to progress and/or experience content, now you only have one: mob grinding. And you have less content to boot. This is more freedom? This isn't being "forced" into a particular playstyle?
...
What you state is true however it is not the angle I would approach the issue. Instead, I would leave in the story and the mob grinding and add a very well developed, expansive crafting, housing and other social positive systems (in contrast, systems that directly result in violence I would call social negative systems; These terms, however, by no way are a judgement of the actions, just an easy way for me to distinguish the two, that of building or bringing something into the world vs taking something out of it.).
And in truth, even with story it will most often involve mob grinding. I mean, to look at it at base level, in my opinion Story equates to, subjectively, better written words on the screen, and most likely more of such words, that end with you going out and grinding X amount of mobs. Most missions/quest I believe will result in you killing in this fashion. So to me, ultimately, Story is still mob grinding.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Okay, so help me out, as this is where I'm having a huge logic disconnect. How does crafting equate to "making one's own story"? I must be missing something here, and yes, before jumping to conclusions, I *did* play a crafter (Droid Engineer) in pre-CU SWG. Honestly, I'm not seeing a world of difference between crafting and mob grinding — under the context of "story telling". Is this a semantics issue?
Well, I'll take for granted you understand what roleplaying is in the scope of players taking on the role of actors and creating stories and playing them out, interacting with other players. I'll also surmise that you would conclude that many people enjoy having props, and a wide variety of props, to fit different roleplaying situations. I mean, imagine how the story would be different if Anakin didn't have the tools to create CP3O. That relationship would have a really different dynamic in my view. When CP3O says "thank the maker" it truly would have no meaning, as an example.
Ok, those givens stated, crafting (and I mean a flexible, large system like that offered before the NGE) can be a key tool into the creation of these multitude of props. As examples:
1) Different player created structures for settings (houses, bases, cantinas, amphitheatres, town halls)
2) Differents player created knick knacks (these aid in setting themes in the structures in #1 above as well as having the specific objects it better allows for more unique, specific/detailed stories to be created with "real" items (as real as you can get in a virtual world, right
).
3) Having mulitple types of crafters (comparing the pre NGE list to the NGE list) adds a level of variety so that those who imagine themselves as head of a medical company, a droid manufacturing conglomerate, a weapon making corporation, a clothing production company, a food production corporation, etc., can actually do it in game and have a visual, tangible way of doing so.
I'm not saying that crafting is the only way that one can make their own story. I am saying that after having experienced what a fairly good, broad crafting system can do (and I agree the system in SWG wasn't perfect, but it was good, certainly a basis from which to build/improve upon, not tear down and compact) with regard to opening up doors from which players can create other stories in addition to the pre-packaged one (however good or bad that one is), crafting does have and has shown its merit.
Yes, if you take crafting as just sitting in a spot and continuously clicking a button to make 100 of X item to gain exp to get to the next level, then yeah, it is like grinding mobs. Depending on the scope of the system and the variety of things that you can make, and those things not all necessarily having some combat aiding use but instead aiding into the visual representation of "living in a given world", then yes, crafting can play a large part in creating one's own story.
And having those items, such as, hmm, let's say a vase to decorate your house, be drops from some random creature just isn't the same, in my opinion. It raises the questions why do only mobs have access to such items, why do only mobs make those items, and if such items exist and I'm supposed to have this heroic ability to move mountains and save galaxies, why can't I go down to the local junior college and take an art course and learn to apint paintings? I certainly should have the aptitude to learn such an ability.
So, I don't know if it would be a semantics issue. A matter of perspective as to what can be done with a given ability would be my estimation. Looking at crafting as a "function", a systematic means to an end would be one way. Another would be a way to make props to aid in story telling (especially if the system allows you to inscribe the items or name them. Both of those ways are absolutly valid ways of looking at it, in my opinion.
While I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response, I've got to say I'm still finding it a bit of a stretch.
Sure, I get it. For some folks, crafting a vase and using it to decorate a house is the cat's pajamas. But let's be honest, is it a story any of us would be eager to pay $8-12 to sit in a theater and watch for two and a half hours... even if it were accompanied by a great John Williams soundtrack? Really??
Look, I'm not saying people shouldn't have the option to pursue such interests in a game... even this game. But should it come at the expense of truly great story telling, by a developer known and revered for storying telling... in a game based on Star Wars??
If the answer in way, shape, or form resembles "yes", then I'm sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hehe, this makes me think you actually haven't really been reading what I have been writing.
No where have I ever stated that Bioware should dump their efforts on story. I think you are just lumping me into a perception that you have of other posters. Even in my response that you are here responding to I state fairly plainly that the pre-packaged story option should be available for those of you who don't have the time or inclination to go about creating your own, but also the elements should be there so that those of us who don't want to be iconic, heroic or showered with npc accolades but instead want to build a house and term it my storefront, decorate the house in a manner so that when you enter it it looks like a store inside, and having a usefull existence making things other players in general can use.
Now, maybe that message got lost because I am often gregarious so I will try to cut this short. I am all for story, but also for the elements I have described above and in other posts. I think having both makes for a better overall game, it makes it inclusive of more people. I don't think that Rich Vogel, Gordon Walton and other key decision makers on this project share that view.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
You may be right, though I don't recall any of that in previous Bioware games... particularly those that were heralded for their stories. Now if this "fourth pillar" of MMO development Bioware keeps harping on turns out to be little more than WoW-styled questing, aka: go here, kill 27 bantha, return with 12 enraged bantha skins... you'd better believe I'll be the first person here criticizing what a colossal disappointment that is.
No, I have and you're right. You've been quite reasonable, and I haven't given you personally enough credit for that. My response (though it encompassed a huge quote of yours) was not directed specifically at you, but rather the OP and those of like mind.
BTW, as for Rich Vogel, I think I've expressed already (in this thread or one of the others) I'm not exactly brimming with confidence about his contributions to this title either. I'm not gonna crucify the guy, but his previous work with SWG struck me as "out of touch" at best.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
I wish to be entertained ... just like tv shows and all the SP games are about. Games are entertainment. Story driven theme park is a great new way for this kind of games.
3-4 years ... u r JOKING. Why would i want to play the same game for so many YEARS. There is no shortage of games and other types of entertainment out there. You will be gimping yourself if you spend so much time on ONE game.
Even WOW .. wow has tons of content and it is great but I don't expect it to last forever. I will still sub, don't get me wrong .. but my play time has drastically decreased since i leveled to 80 & geared up. I haven't even done much raid (I don't raid much except PUG .. i am casual).
I don't expect to still play WOW 3-5 years down the road, unless they keep on putting out very good xpacks.
Oh btw, i guess even theme park games can last a long time if they put out xpack after xpack.
You may be right, though I don't recall any of that in previous Bioware games... particularly those that were heralded for their stories. Now if this "fourth pillar" of MMO development Bioware keeps harping on turns out to be little more than WoW-styled questing, aka: go here, kill 27 bantha, return with 12 enraged bantha skins... you'd better believe I'll be the first person here criticizing what a colossal disappointment that is.
hmm .... didn't u read about bioware's statement about choices matter? I am sure there are still kill quests .. but if those quests are constructed in a more story oriented fashion (u can decide whether to save this guy or killl him .. for example) .. i am fine.