Give me a few games that are not story driven theme parks that have long-term appeal>>>>maybe one or two out there ?
Define LONG TERM. Any why do we need it? A MMO last for one YEAR is already a lot more than what SP games can do (typiaclly a few weeks).
WOW, for example, holds my interests for more than a year now. It is less so before the xpack comes out and I am sure it will wane after i "finish" wotlk and before the next one is out. But 1 year is a long time and I would consider that long term enough for me.
There isn’t one single story driven MMO on the market to even get an idea of what this means folks. Quest based leveling (fed-ex missions for XP) is not the same thing as a Story Based MMO. Just because you have your own personal story arc in no way does that mean you can’t go off and do your own thing at some point.
Raph Koster said when he helped design SWG it was basically to be built up of many Mini-games. That’s what people enjoyed about it since the content side was lacking. KOTOR had mini games, BioWare likes mini games, I expect there to be mini games in TOR to keep you busy when you aren’t taking part in something adventurous.
Its funny people are so used to MMOs sucking now they just instantly jump to conclusions.
In star wars galaxies I wrote my own book. I made my own story. I quested if i wanted. Hunted for resources to fill a contract from a crafter. I did pvp if a bounty hunter dared find me. I explored the depths of each planet. The story never ended. The Old Republic sounds like the complete opposite of that. Im reading someone else' book. Im following their story. Yes i can choose different story arcs within that story, but its still someone else tale. And once I complete that last quest the story ends (and thus the game for me) The worst part is Im forced into the role of "hero" I dont want to be the hero and I dont want to be forced to quest. SWG worked because it gave us both options. There were quests but the npc didnt have those "hey talk to me" marks above their heads. You actually had to explore and find the npcs that ga ve out quests. Or you could just skip questing alltogether and do your own thing. Bioware is making the same mistake Funcom did with Age of Conan. The game was great for the first 20 levels but once the story fizzled so did the game. In short, no developer can make a theme park experience fun forever unless they constantly add content every week. Sorry Bioware, I love your single player games but this is a different animal. In MMO's I want to play in a virtual world, not be some hero clone like everyone else.
I sure hope Bioware reconsiders this whole story-driven Im the hero theme
I beg the differ, Final Fantasy is a PVE (Story) driven MMO, good crafting engine and still has a lot of players that play it. This was in direct reply to the title of this post. Just because you havent played it does not mean it does not have long term appeal.
Final Fantasy online is a great game. But you will never hear about them smashing WoW numbers. But it does have quite the fan base and has produced well since 2002. It currently has a subscriber base of 500,000.
So obviously its not about if its a PVE or a PVP game. Although genre plays a role. But I believe that if you make a great game it will have long term appeal. The numbers are below along with the link if you wanted to verify.
"Accommodating players in North America, Europe and Japan, FINAL FANTASY XI is the first massively multiplayer online role-playing game capable of simultaneous multiplayer cooperation across three different platforms. Now in its sixth year of service, FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters from around the world. The series continues to evolve and expand, offering newcomers and fans alike an immersive, engrossing and engaging universe to traverse, defend and explore."
There isn’t one single story driven MMO on the market to even get an idea of what this means folks. Quest based leveling (fed-ex missions for XP) is not the same thing as a Story Based MMO. Just because you have your own personal story arc in no way does that mean you can’t go off and do your own thing at some point. Raph Koster said when he helped design SWG it was basically to be built up of many Mini-games. That’s what people enjoyed about it since the content side was lacking. KOTOR had mini games, BioWare likes mini games, I expect there to be mini games in TOR to keep you busy when you aren’t taking part in something adventurous. Its funny people are so used to MMOs sucking now they just instantly jump to conclusions.
Well, I'd argue that this certainly isn't our fault if that statement does indeed apply to a given gamer (noting that not all gamers may think so). Personally I certainly have been let down by MMOs since November 2005. SWG-CU was the last point in time where I can say I genuinely had fun in an MMO. I've tried a few since then and while some did offer some short term enjoyment, it never lasted more than a month or so.
I had fun in AoC but looking back at it it was mainly in the Tortage area. Once outside of that AoC showed its true colors for me. The fact that anything in that game outside of the quests and combat was so under-developed, and that the quest quality, in my opinion, began to dwindle fast after level 30 for me left me without any qualms of leaving that game. It was convenient that I was going back to school and needed to focus there which made it extremely easy to leave. The only thing I missed were the friends I made.
The negative conclusions people jump to are well founded, in my opinion. They are based on recent past experiences. When companies start to offer well-rounded, higher polish/quality products, well, those conclusions will change. Sure, Bioware has had high quality single player products in the past. That, however, doesn't automatically translate into a high quality MMO. That'll be judged when it's released. That they have brought on people like Vogel and Walton and what I've read of their mentality toward making MMOs doesn't bode well in my mind.
All that said, their philosphy toward making this game pretty much lets me know it isn't an MMO for me. It very well could be an outstanding product. But it will be an outstanding product that won't have anything for this long time MMO player. Which is ok, noone is holding a gun to my head making me buy and play it. I'm just a little disappointed that an MMO in an IP I love won't have anything for me.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
There isn’t one single story driven MMO on the market to even get an idea of what this means folks. Quest based leveling (fed-ex missions for XP) is not the same thing as a Story Based MMO. Just because you have your own personal story arc in no way does that mean you can’t go off and do your own thing at some point. Raph Koster said when he helped design SWG it was basically to be built up of many Mini-games. That’s what people enjoyed about it since the content side was lacking. KOTOR had mini games, BioWare likes mini games, I expect there to be mini games in TOR to keep you busy when you aren’t taking part in something adventurous. Its funny people are so used to MMOs sucking now they just instantly jump to conclusions.
Well, I'd argue that this certainly isn't our fault if that statement does indeed apply to a given gamer (noting that not all gamers may think so). Personally I certainly have been let down by MMOs since November 2005. SWG-CU was the last point in time where I can say I genuinely had fun in an MMO. I've tried a few since then and while some did offer some short term enjoyment, it never lasted more than a month or so.
I had fun in AoC but looking back at it it was mainly in the Tortage area. Once outside of that AoC showed its true colors for me. The fact that anything in that game outside of the quests and combat was so under-developed, and that the quest quality, in my opinion, began to dwindle fast after level 30 for me left me without any qualms of leaving that game. It was convenient that I was going back to school and needed to focus there which made it extremely easy to leave. The only thing I missed were the friends I made.
The negative conclusions people jump to are well founded, in my opinion. They are based on recent past experiences. When companies start to offer well-rounded, higher polish/quality products, well, those conclusions will change. Sure, Bioware has had high quality single player products in the past. That, however, doesn't automatically translate into a high quality MMO. That'll be judged when it's released. That they have brought on people like Vogel and Walton and what I've read of their mentality toward making MMOs doesn't bode well in my mind.
All that said, their philosphy toward making this game pretty much lets me know it isn't an MMO for me. It very well could be an outstanding product. But it will be an outstanding product that won't have anything for this long time MMO player. Which is ok, noone is holding a gun to my head making me buy and play it. I'm just a little disappointed that an MMO in an IP I love won't have anything for me.
In my opinion BioWare has just not done a very good job explaining what story driven really means to most fans, or maybe this is on purpose since they have yet to provide real examples. Either way I think it's something different then what we all imagine it is. Supposedly the developers are having a really hard time keeping the lid on some things they want to share with the fans. They say it's coming this month so I figure I'll keep my doubts to myself till I find a little bit more info out.
Yeah, games have sucked the last few years, but over time I've taken a long hard look at what it is MMOs are missing and why they suck for me. Every MMO including pre-cu SWG suffers from it. It's called direction, purpose. Having a life story in a game might be one of the many things missing. In SWG we made our own life in the game, it was fun but only because the rest of the community made it fun. Without community you got just an empty shell of a game with nothing to do. That’s not quality to me. Another thing that sucks are quests and mission terminals because they feel too much like jobs to me. That’s not fun, but then neither is doing nothing. It’s going to be a balancing act to make the perfect MMO.
I imagine with this game you will have a story arc that is exclusive to your character as well as immersive. This will also be tied to your character’s advancement. I also imagine you will be able to do “whatever” in your free time. In other games if I’m not questing I’m logging out so being able to do “whatever” is another form of content for me. As long as the game doesn’t feel like a second Job to me I’ll be happy. We shall see how this works out in an MMO.
Oh I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. LotRO, AoC, and Guild Wars (if you consider that an MMO) all at least tried to weave story telling into their games... some with more success than others. But none I can think of gave you choices and branching arcs as ToR is promising. I'm cautiously optimistic that if Bioware pulls this off, it will be something worth while.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
ummmmmmm I rather have a story to live through and if I wanted my own I would write it. Other posters are right sandbox mmos have no content. Its ll bout killing mobs, crafting, and pvp, basicly all forms of grinding. And while they might be nice for awhile it would be the same thing year after year instead of new story arcs, which from bioware should be pretty dam good. Also I hate alts because I don't like doing the same thing over and over again, but each class in TOR gets its own story arc.( no problem with alts in LOTRO love that game)
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Not everyone role plays you know, majority of the subs are usualy in normal PvP servers in mmos. Most people just want to play a game and have fun, they dont care about making up some story for themselves. And besides, im more interested in the story of major npcs than my self.
I'm quite ecstatic that Bioware is more interested in making a game rather than the same old /borefest with a crafting / raiding / social experiment simulator. As for the combat style, I'm praying it won't be twitch based. If I wanted twitch combat, I'd play Quake or Unreal. I prefer that combat be based off my avatar's abilities, not my reflexes and network connection.
Bioware is the only gaming company to not have disappointed me so far and I hope it stays that way.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm quite ecstatic that Bioware is more interested in making a game rather than the same old /borefest with a crafting / raiding / social experiment simulator. As for the combat style, I'm praying it won't be twitch based. If I wanted twitch combat, I'd play Quake or Unreal. I prefer that combat be based off my avatar's abilities, not my reflexes and network connection. Bioware is the only gaming company to not have disappointed me so far and I hope it stays that way.
Well said. This will be NEW .. a combo of SP story goodness and some MMO-elements. And who cares about whether it is "proper" MMO or not .. as long as it is a good GAME, i will be there.
One thing to keep in mind when worrying about the story driven nature of TOR, is that the folks at BioWare are claiming to intend to make the story for each type of character different than every other type of character. That means your Jedi aligned Jedi will have a different story than your Sith aligned Jedi. The same would go for your Republic aligned unannounced class(es) characters and their corresponding Sith aligned unannounced class(es) characters. The intent seems to be to entice players to play several characters, instead of just one.
We have no information about the endgame (and really no information beyond the ability to play a Jedi alligned Jedi and a Sith alligned Jedi, and a couple locations that will be in the game), so we have no point of reference to determine the longevity of the game. I'd put money on it being another raid, rinse, repeat engame which is so common in DIKU MUD type MMORPGs.
Having immensely enjoyed KOTR I & II, I was initially very excited to hear that an mmo was in development. I don't finish every game I buy - I often get bored with them - but the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it.
But mmos aren't about a spectator watching a story unfold - they're about players engaging with a fictional online world with other players. Story elements necessarily detract from that to some degree.
First of all, you "immensely" enjoyed KotOR II... for the "engaging" story? Really?? Secondly, why must story elements "necessarily detract" from a fictional online world with other players... to *any* degree? Last, but not least, you were merely a spectator watching a story unfold in either of the KotOR games? How did you manage that?
1) Really no, because I didn't say that. I said that I immensely enjoyed both KOTOR games. They were very enjoyable for reasons above and beyond the stories.
But I did enjoy the stories too - I found them much more engaging than most other rpgs. Long after combat became repetitive and lost any semblance of challenge, the stories were enough to keep me playing.
2) This is obvious and has been addressed in numerous other posts in this thread, including my own.
Stories fit in single-player games which are generally linear in nature. Even games which give players a great deal of freedom in the way they approach the story (eg. Morrowind) have an identifiable beginning and end and a fairly narrow path between the two.
People play mmos, and before them muds, for the social element, the unpredictability factor and the added challenge that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld. Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree.
3) At this point I wonder if you've played the KOTOR games, or in fact any single player computer game.
For all that I was hitting the occasional button on my keyboard and making npc dialogue choices, I never for a second stopped being a spectator to the story.
It's not like I could say "Frac this for a joke" and then stick a lightsabre in all of my companions while they slept, or decide to run away and join a hippie colony in the outer rim to make tie-died droid booties.
There was a set story in motion. It was nice that they gave players the freedom to play it light or dark side but those choices didn't have much impact on the final outcome.
If you played them and didn't feel like a spectator then that would suggest you found the stories much more enjoyable and engaging than I did - which makes your first question an odd one.
One thing to keep in mind when worrying about the story driven nature of TOR, is that the folks at BioWare are claiming to intend to make the story for each type of character different than every other type of character. That means your Jedi aligned Jedi will have a different story than your Sith aligned Jedi. The same would go for your Republic aligned unannounced class(es) characters and their corresponding Sith aligned unannounced class(es) characters. The intent seems to be to entice players to play several characters, instead of just one.
This is a turn off - I am not enticed!
I'm an unabashed altaholic, but mmos which provide no long-term playability other than re-playability via other classes - I think that's poor game design. It's the reason I stopped playing CoH.
Besides, the stories for those other classes will inevitably be told by other players and/or posted on various websites.
We have no information about the endgame (and really no information beyond the ability to play a Jedi alligned Jedi and a Sith alligned Jedi, and a couple locations that will be in the game), so we have no point of reference to determine the longevity of the game. I'd put money on it being another raid, rinse, repeat engame which is so common in DIKU MUD type MMORPGs.
I don't think so. Raids take away the focus away from your character being the hero entirely. something Bioware is completely against. cause face it, needing 20 other *heroe's* to kill 1 NPC, has little to no hero feeling to it.
at most suspect small group type raids, maybe 5-10 people at most and 10 is stretching it.
but thats just my opinion.
im sure they will have instance's, but I suspect they will be more along the lines of TR's instance's rather then WoW's.
Not everyone role plays you know, majority of the subs are usualy in normal PvP servers in mmos. Most people just want to play a game and have fun, they dont care about making up some story for themselves. And besides, im more interested in the story of major npcs than my self.
If participating in content, creating your own content and enjoying it is considered role play then I guess a lot of us are role players lol. When SWG players speak of this they simply mean things like, hunting parties, player city events, running a tough mission to help a buddy ect. Sure there were dances, weddings and such, but most players just lived in the game world. I’m not defending any one side here, I think there needs to be a balance between all game play styles.
Anyways the majority of players in MMOs are not hardcore PvPer’s. More casual than anything, that’s why there are more normal servers than PvP servers in WoW.
When I played SWG on Bloodfin (which was the unofficial PvP server of SWG),out of all the guilds there were 2 major PvP guilds who PvP’d a larger percentage of the time; more then others. Out of 200+ members in each guild there were maybe 15 members who were non-jedi overt most of the time, but only 80% of the time. The time they weren’t overt PvP was spent looting whoring, questing, and crafting, or just hanging out. Sometimes they spent their time on the forums even whining about lack of content and broken promises for more from SOE.
People play mmos, and before them muds, for the social element, the unpredictability factor and the added challenge that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld. Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree.
Time changes. Who says people are like that now. There are lots of people (and WOW has 11.5M to show) who are going for the hack-n-slash, and occasional MP gameplay. That is why soloing is so important.
And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.
Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes?
Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.
There are many, MANY, story-driven MMOs out there right now.
WoW, LotRO, AoC, DDO are just some big names. And they, despite what some people here seem to think of them, carry most of the clout right now in the MMO community. So yes, there are alot of people play story-driven MMOs.
I'm with the OP. A good story is essential and fun in almost all single-player games. I do not, however, really want that in an MMO. I like the idea of some quests to give a feel for the lore, especially for roleplayers, but the focus of the game cannot be the story; it cannot, as the OP said, FORCE players to become heroes. Hell, in WoW, even the undead warlock who takes on a quest early on to do research about how to end all life will later on do many quests to save the world, and protect the light. That's BS. It's a load of bollocks and I don't like it.
While having some stories to set the players in the world, the players need to have the ability to write their own stories and not have it run counter to what happens in the game if the game wants to keep players.
A good example of this is AoC. All players start out as a slave. Now, I know it’s a rough world in the prehistoric world Howard made for us, and I love that world, but that is just ridiculous. We can’t all be slaves at some point, and we can’t all end up being legends.
This is why sandbox games from years past are the games people still bring up as having been great. Because they were, and no matter how great another game is, if you can’t be the character you want (even if you don’t role play, if you can’t be the kind of person you want), many people won’t stay very long. I know I cannot. I finish the game, and just like a single player game...I have beaten it. When I beat a game, that’s it. I’m done. I win.
You have to make a game you can’t beat.
wow is no way story driven unless you consider killing 10 boars as exciting storying telling. Age of conan has a story for the first 20 levels and then the vail of funcoms corruption is lifted and you see the game for what it really is. lotro does have story.
Originally posted by green13 1) Really no, because I didn't say that. I said that I immensely enjoyed both KOTOR games. They were very enjoyable for reasons above and beyond the stories. But I did enjoy the stories too - I found them much more engaging than most other rpgs. Long after combat became repetitive and lost any semblance of challenge, the stories were enough to keep me playing. You said, "the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it." You loved the ending of KotOR II? 2) This is obvious and has been addressed in numerous other posts in this thread, including my own. Stories fit in single-player games which are generally linear in nature. Even games which give players a great deal of freedom in the way they approach the story (eg. Morrowind) have an identifiable beginning and end and a fairly narrow path between the two. People play mmos, and before them muds, for the social element, the unpredictability factor and the added challenge that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld. Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree. Saying something is "obvious" isn't an answer. Why must stories either be linear or "always detract from players engaging with a fictional online world with other players to some degree"? Simply restating your opinion is not an explanation. 3) At this point I wonder if you've played the KOTOR games, or in fact any single player computer game. For all that I was hitting the occasional button on my keyboard and making npc dialogue choices, I never for a second stopped being a spectator to the story. Was or was not story progression (be it linear or otherwise) entirely dependent on your interaction with the game? You didn't just blankly stare at your screen and watch the story unfold, like a DVD movie, did you? If not, you weren't just merely a spectator then, were you? It's not like I could say "Frac this for a joke" and then stick a lightsabre in all of my companions while they slept, or decide to run away and join a hippie colony in the outer rim to make tie-died droid booties. Is this what you are looking for? An opportunity to make a mockery of the IP, for the sake of a joke? And if Bioware gave you that choice? What then? You'd no longer feel like a spectator? There was a set story in motion. It was nice that they gave players the freedom to play it light or dark side but those choices didn't have much impact on the final outcome. If you played them and didn't feel like a spectator then that would suggest you found the stories much more enjoyable and engaging than I did - which makes your first question an odd one.
Originally posted by green13 1) Really no, because I didn't say that. I said that I immensely enjoyed both KOTOR games. They were very enjoyable for reasons above and beyond the stories. But I did enjoy the stories too - I found them much more engaging than most other rpgs. Long after combat became repetitive and lost any semblance of challenge, the stories were enough to keep me playing. You said, "the stories in both KOTR games were engaging enough to keep me there right to the end loving every minute of it." You loved the ending of KotOR II? 2) This is obvious and has been addressed in numerous other posts in this thread, including my own. Stories fit in single-player games which are generally linear in nature. Even games which give players a great deal of freedom in the way they approach the story (eg. Morrowind) have an identifiable beginning and end and a fairly narrow path between the two. People play mmos, and before them muds, for the social element, the unpredictability factor and the added challenge that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld. Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree. Saying something is "obvious" isn't an answer. Why must stories either be linear or "always detract from players engaging with a fictional online world with other players to some degree"? Simply restating your opinion is not an explanation. 3) At this point I wonder if you've played the KOTOR games, or in fact any single player computer game. For all that I was hitting the occasional button on my keyboard and making npc dialogue choices, I never for a second stopped being a spectator to the story. Was or was not story progression (be it linear or otherwise) entirely dependent on your interaction with the game? You didn't just blankly stare at your screen and watch the story unfold, like a DVD movie, did you? If not, you weren't just merely a spectator then, were you? It's not like I could say "Frac this for a joke" and then stick a lightsabre in all of my companions while they slept, or decide to run away and join a hippie colony in the outer rim to make tie-died droid booties. Is this what you are looking for? An opportunity to make a mockery of the IP, for the sake of a joke? And if Bioware gave you that choice? What then? You'd no longer feel like a spectator? There was a set story in motion. It was nice that they gave players the freedom to play it light or dark side but those choices didn't have much impact on the final outcome. If you played them and didn't feel like a spectator then that would suggest you found the stories much more enjoyable and engaging than I did - which makes your first question an odd one.
1) Once again, that's not what I said. I think everyone else is fairly clear on what I said, so repeating for a third time isn't worth the effort.
2) Also probably fairly clear to everyone else - the three paragraphs I spent re-explaining (for your benefit) the obvious.
3) Yes, you're obviously completely right!
By your logic, having to turn the pages while reading a book makes the reader more than a mere spectator. Or if you're watching a movie and lift a cheek to scratch your butt-crack - that totally drives the story!
Me making a mockery of the IP? No yoda'esque bad grammar, schmalzy force lines or quips about tongueing your own sister. Nope, no mocking Star Wars there. But good luck with trying to convince others that I'm anti-star wars which by extension would make you wonderful and everything you say really profound.
One thing to keep in mind when worrying about the story driven nature of TOR, is that the folks at BioWare are claiming to intend to make the story for each type of character different than every other type of character. That means your Jedi aligned Jedi will have a different story than your Sith aligned Jedi. The same would go for your Republic aligned unannounced class(es) characters and their corresponding Sith aligned unannounced class(es) characters. The intent seems to be to entice players to play several characters, instead of just one.
This is a turn off - I am not enticed!
I'm an unabashed altaholic, but mmos which provide no long-term playability other than re-playability via other classes - I think that's poor game design. It's the reason I stopped playing CoH.
Besides, the stories for those other classes will inevitably be told by other players and/or posted on various websites.
Everything about the game will eventually wind up on various websites. The endgame content will likely be the same endgame content as almost every other MMORPG, raiding and PvP.
If they make the experience different enough (through the stories, since actual gameplay will not likely be very different), and limit the need for grinding, they could possibly make playing alts more enjoyable than it has been done so far. I don't have any faith that they will do so, which puts the focus back on the end game, which will likely be raiding and PvP.
We have no information about the endgame (and really no information beyond the ability to play a Jedi alligned Jedi and a Sith alligned Jedi, and a couple locations that will be in the game), so we have no point of reference to determine the longevity of the game. I'd put money on it being another raid, rinse, repeat engame which is so common in DIKU MUD type MMORPGs.
I don't think so. Raids take away the focus away from your character being the hero entirely. something Bioware is completely against. cause face it, needing 20 other *heroe's* to kill 1 NPC, has little to no hero feeling to it.
at most suspect small group type raids, maybe 5-10 people at most and 10 is stretching it.
but thats just my opinion.
im sure they will have instance's, but I suspect they will be more along the lines of TR's instance's rather then WoW's.
To most game developers, having to team with a hundred other players to kill a giant foozle is 'heroic'. I doubt the folks at BioWare are much different in that respect.
The 'heroicness' of the game seems to be the idea of removing the 'go kill ten rats' quests, as opposed to focusing on the players being the hero of the universe. Killing a giant foozle with a bunch of others would easily fit into that idea of 'heroic'. It isn't original, or creative, or even very appealing, but it will likely be the endgame content of the game, along with PvP.
wow is no way story driven unless you consider killing 10 boars as exciting storying telling. Age of conan has a story for the first 20 levels and then the vail of funcoms corruption is lifted and you see the game for what it really is. lotro does have story.
WOW is more a hack-n-slash game with cool loot like Diablo. It is not story focus at all. In fact, they make it easy for u to skip the story (like u do NOT have to read the quest text and few people do).
Originally posted by green13 1) Once again, that's not what I said. I think everyone else is fairly clear on what I said, so repeating for a third time isn't worth the effort. On that I must concede agreement. Expecting a reasoned and thoughtful discussion from you is starting to look pretty futile. 2) Also probably fairly clear to everyone else - the three paragraphs I spent re-explaining (for your benefit) the obvious. What did you explain? I asked, specifically, "why must story elements necessarily detract from a fictional online world with other players... to *any* degree?" Your answer?
"This is obvious... Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree."
Simply repeating an irrational prejudice isn't an explanation, even if it takes a whopping three paragraphs.
Why does a story — even with an identifiable beginning and end — have to detract from the "social element", the "unpredictability factor" and the "added challenge" that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld? Why must "the path" be "fairly narrow"?
3) Yes, you're obviously completely right! By your logic, having to turn the pages while reading a book makes the reader more than a mere spectator. Or if you're watching a movie and lift a cheek to scratch your butt-crack - that totally drives the story! And your alternative? Please do enlighten us with the compelling depth and engaging activities you're looking for in a game, especially an MMO? What in particular can't you dismiss as merely "hitting the occasional button on my keyboard"? Me making a mockery of the IP? No yoda'esque bad grammar, schmalzy force lines or quips about tongueing your own sister. Nope, no mocking Star Wars there. But good luck with trying to convince others that I'm anti-star wars which by extension would make you wonderful and everything you say really profound. Is that it? Is that the best you've got? Instead of addressing the question, you'd rather resort to ad hominem? Well, I can play that game too...
Who knew Ann Coulter was an mmorpg.com subscriber?
Comments
Define LONG TERM. Any why do we need it? A MMO last for one YEAR is already a lot more than what SP games can do (typiaclly a few weeks).
WOW, for example, holds my interests for more than a year now. It is less so before the xpack comes out and I am sure it will wane after i "finish" wotlk and before the next one is out. But 1 year is a long time and I would consider that long term enough for me.
There isn’t one single story driven MMO on the market to even get an idea of what this means folks. Quest based leveling (fed-ex missions for XP) is not the same thing as a Story Based MMO. Just because you have your own personal story arc in no way does that mean you can’t go off and do your own thing at some point.
Raph Koster said when he helped design SWG it was basically to be built up of many Mini-games. That’s what people enjoyed about it since the content side was lacking. KOTOR had mini games, BioWare likes mini games, I expect there to be mini games in TOR to keep you busy when you aren’t taking part in something adventurous.
Its funny people are so used to MMOs sucking now they just instantly jump to conclusions.
I beg the differ, Final Fantasy is a PVE (Story) driven MMO, good crafting engine and still has a lot of players that play it. This was in direct reply to the title of this post. Just because you havent played it does not mean it does not have long term appeal.
Final Fantasy online is a great game. But you will never hear about them smashing WoW numbers. But it does have quite the fan base and has produced well since 2002. It currently has a subscriber base of 500,000.
So obviously its not about if its a PVE or a PVP game. Although genre plays a role. But I believe that if you make a great game it will have long term appeal. The numbers are below along with the link if you wanted to verify.
"Accommodating players in North America, Europe and Japan, FINAL FANTASY XI is the first massively multiplayer online role-playing game capable of simultaneous multiplayer cooperation across three different platforms. Now in its sixth year of service, FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters from around the world. The series continues to evolve and expand, offering newcomers and fans alike an immersive, engrossing and engaging universe to traverse, defend and explore."
http://www.dreamstation.cc/news/news/final-fantasy-xi-new-content-being-created-for-spring-2009
Well, I'd argue that this certainly isn't our fault if that statement does indeed apply to a given gamer (noting that not all gamers may think so). Personally I certainly have been let down by MMOs since November 2005. SWG-CU was the last point in time where I can say I genuinely had fun in an MMO. I've tried a few since then and while some did offer some short term enjoyment, it never lasted more than a month or so.
I had fun in AoC but looking back at it it was mainly in the Tortage area. Once outside of that AoC showed its true colors for me. The fact that anything in that game outside of the quests and combat was so under-developed, and that the quest quality, in my opinion, began to dwindle fast after level 30 for me left me without any qualms of leaving that game. It was convenient that I was going back to school and needed to focus there which made it extremely easy to leave. The only thing I missed were the friends I made.
The negative conclusions people jump to are well founded, in my opinion. They are based on recent past experiences. When companies start to offer well-rounded, higher polish/quality products, well, those conclusions will change. Sure, Bioware has had high quality single player products in the past. That, however, doesn't automatically translate into a high quality MMO. That'll be judged when it's released. That they have brought on people like Vogel and Walton and what I've read of their mentality toward making MMOs doesn't bode well in my mind.
All that said, their philosphy toward making this game pretty much lets me know it isn't an MMO for me. It very well could be an outstanding product. But it will be an outstanding product that won't have anything for this long time MMO player. Which is ok, noone is holding a gun to my head making me buy and play it. I'm just a little disappointed that an MMO in an IP I love won't have anything for me.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Well, I'd argue that this certainly isn't our fault if that statement does indeed apply to a given gamer (noting that not all gamers may think so). Personally I certainly have been let down by MMOs since November 2005. SWG-CU was the last point in time where I can say I genuinely had fun in an MMO. I've tried a few since then and while some did offer some short term enjoyment, it never lasted more than a month or so.
I had fun in AoC but looking back at it it was mainly in the Tortage area. Once outside of that AoC showed its true colors for me. The fact that anything in that game outside of the quests and combat was so under-developed, and that the quest quality, in my opinion, began to dwindle fast after level 30 for me left me without any qualms of leaving that game. It was convenient that I was going back to school and needed to focus there which made it extremely easy to leave. The only thing I missed were the friends I made.
The negative conclusions people jump to are well founded, in my opinion. They are based on recent past experiences. When companies start to offer well-rounded, higher polish/quality products, well, those conclusions will change. Sure, Bioware has had high quality single player products in the past. That, however, doesn't automatically translate into a high quality MMO. That'll be judged when it's released. That they have brought on people like Vogel and Walton and what I've read of their mentality toward making MMOs doesn't bode well in my mind.
All that said, their philosphy toward making this game pretty much lets me know it isn't an MMO for me. It very well could be an outstanding product. But it will be an outstanding product that won't have anything for this long time MMO player. Which is ok, noone is holding a gun to my head making me buy and play it. I'm just a little disappointed that an MMO in an IP I love won't have anything for me.
In my opinion BioWare has just not done a very good job explaining what story driven really means to most fans, or maybe this is on purpose since they have yet to provide real examples. Either way I think it's something different then what we all imagine it is. Supposedly the developers are having a really hard time keeping the lid on some things they want to share with the fans. They say it's coming this month so I figure I'll keep my doubts to myself till I find a little bit more info out.
Yeah, games have sucked the last few years, but over time I've taken a long hard look at what it is MMOs are missing and why they suck for me. Every MMO including pre-cu SWG suffers from it. It's called direction, purpose. Having a life story in a game might be one of the many things missing. In SWG we made our own life in the game, it was fun but only because the rest of the community made it fun. Without community you got just an empty shell of a game with nothing to do. That’s not quality to me. Another thing that sucks are quests and mission terminals because they feel too much like jobs to me. That’s not fun, but then neither is doing nothing. It’s going to be a balancing act to make the perfect MMO.
I imagine with this game you will have a story arc that is exclusive to your character as well as immersive. This will also be tied to your character’s advancement. I also imagine you will be able to do “whatever” in your free time. In other games if I’m not questing I’m logging out so being able to do “whatever” is another form of content for me. As long as the game doesn’t feel like a second Job to me I’ll be happy. We shall see how this works out in an MMO.
it comes down to one basic principle. Do you wish to be entertained with their story or write your own ? Story-driven still sounds like theme park to me. Its forced on me and even if its good it gets old really fast.
Whats really sad is the posters here that seem okay and even expect the game to provide short-term entertainment. What happened to MMO's giving us a home for 3-4 years minimum ? Is the whole world gone fastfood instant gratification now ?
I dont want a fun but short experience. I want a virtual world I can exist in for 5 years at least
ummmmmmm I rather have a story to live through and if I wanted my own I would write it. Other posters are right sandbox mmos have no content. Its ll bout killing mobs, crafting, and pvp, basicly all forms of grinding. And while they might be nice for awhile it would be the same thing year after year instead of new story arcs, which from bioware should be pretty dam good. Also I hate alts because I don't like doing the same thing over and over again, but each class in TOR gets its own story arc.( no problem with alts in LOTRO love that game)
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Not everyone role plays you know, majority of the subs are usualy in normal PvP servers in mmos. Most people just want to play a game and have fun, they dont care about making up some story for themselves. And besides, im more interested in the story of major npcs than my self.
I'm quite ecstatic that Bioware is more interested in making a game rather than the same old /borefest with a crafting / raiding / social experiment simulator. As for the combat style, I'm praying it won't be twitch based. If I wanted twitch combat, I'd play Quake or Unreal. I prefer that combat be based off my avatar's abilities, not my reflexes and network connection.
Bioware is the only gaming company to not have disappointed me so far and I hope it stays that way.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Well said. This will be NEW .. a combo of SP story goodness and some MMO-elements. And who cares about whether it is "proper" MMO or not .. as long as it is a good GAME, i will be there.
One thing to keep in mind when worrying about the story driven nature of TOR, is that the folks at BioWare are claiming to intend to make the story for each type of character different than every other type of character. That means your Jedi aligned Jedi will have a different story than your Sith aligned Jedi. The same would go for your Republic aligned unannounced class(es) characters and their corresponding Sith aligned unannounced class(es) characters. The intent seems to be to entice players to play several characters, instead of just one.
We have no information about the endgame (and really no information beyond the ability to play a Jedi alligned Jedi and a Sith alligned Jedi, and a couple locations that will be in the game), so we have no point of reference to determine the longevity of the game. I'd put money on it being another raid, rinse, repeat engame which is so common in DIKU MUD type MMORPGs.
First of all, you "immensely" enjoyed KotOR II... for the "engaging" story? Really?? Secondly, why must story elements "necessarily detract" from a fictional online world with other players... to *any* degree? Last, but not least, you were merely a spectator watching a story unfold in either of the KotOR games? How did you manage that?
1) Really no, because I didn't say that. I said that I immensely enjoyed both KOTOR games. They were very enjoyable for reasons above and beyond the stories.
But I did enjoy the stories too - I found them much more engaging than most other rpgs. Long after combat became repetitive and lost any semblance of challenge, the stories were enough to keep me playing.
2) This is obvious and has been addressed in numerous other posts in this thread, including my own.
Stories fit in single-player games which are generally linear in nature. Even games which give players a great deal of freedom in the way they approach the story (eg. Morrowind) have an identifiable beginning and end and a fairly narrow path between the two.
People play mmos, and before them muds, for the social element, the unpredictability factor and the added challenge that comes from playing with/against other humans in the gameworld. Stories, ala single-player games, will always detract from "players engaging with a fictional online world with other players" to some degree.
3) At this point I wonder if you've played the KOTOR games, or in fact any single player computer game.
For all that I was hitting the occasional button on my keyboard and making npc dialogue choices, I never for a second stopped being a spectator to the story.
It's not like I could say "Frac this for a joke" and then stick a lightsabre in all of my companions while they slept, or decide to run away and join a hippie colony in the outer rim to make tie-died droid booties.
There was a set story in motion. It was nice that they gave players the freedom to play it light or dark side but those choices didn't have much impact on the final outcome.
If you played them and didn't feel like a spectator then that would suggest you found the stories much more enjoyable and engaging than I did - which makes your first question an odd one.
This is a turn off - I am not enticed!
I'm an unabashed altaholic, but mmos which provide no long-term playability other than re-playability via other classes - I think that's poor game design. It's the reason I stopped playing CoH.
Besides, the stories for those other classes will inevitably be told by other players and/or posted on various websites.
I don't think so. Raids take away the focus away from your character being the hero entirely. something Bioware is completely against. cause face it, needing 20 other *heroe's* to kill 1 NPC, has little to no hero feeling to it.
at most suspect small group type raids, maybe 5-10 people at most and 10 is stretching it.
but thats just my opinion.
im sure they will have instance's, but I suspect they will be more along the lines of TR's instance's rather then WoW's.
If participating in content, creating your own content and enjoying it is considered role play then I guess a lot of us are role players lol. When SWG players speak of this they simply mean things like, hunting parties, player city events, running a tough mission to help a buddy ect. Sure there were dances, weddings and such, but most players just lived in the game world. I’m not defending any one side here, I think there needs to be a balance between all game play styles.
Anyways the majority of players in MMOs are not hardcore PvPer’s. More casual than anything, that’s why there are more normal servers than PvP servers in WoW.
When I played SWG on Bloodfin (which was the unofficial PvP server of SWG),out of all the guilds there were 2 major PvP guilds who PvP’d a larger percentage of the time; more then others. Out of 200+ members in each guild there were maybe 15 members who were non-jedi overt most of the time, but only 80% of the time. The time they weren’t overt PvP was spent looting whoring, questing, and crafting, or just hanging out. Sometimes they spent their time on the forums even whining about lack of content and broken promises for more from SOE.
Time changes. Who says people are like that now. There are lots of people (and WOW has 11.5M to show) who are going for the hack-n-slash, and occasional MP gameplay. That is why soloing is so important.
There are many, MANY, story-driven MMOs out there right now.
WoW, LotRO, AoC, DDO are just some big names. And they, despite what some people here seem to think of them, carry most of the clout right now in the MMO community. So yes, there are alot of people play story-driven MMOs.
I'm with the OP. A good story is essential and fun in almost all single-player games. I do not, however, really want that in an MMO. I like the idea of some quests to give a feel for the lore, especially for roleplayers, but the focus of the game cannot be the story; it cannot, as the OP said, FORCE players to become heroes. Hell, in WoW, even the undead warlock who takes on a quest early on to do research about how to end all life will later on do many quests to save the world, and protect the light. That's BS. It's a load of bollocks and I don't like it.
While having some stories to set the players in the world, the players need to have the ability to write their own stories and not have it run counter to what happens in the game if the game wants to keep players.
A good example of this is AoC. All players start out as a slave. Now, I know it’s a rough world in the prehistoric world Howard made for us, and I love that world, but that is just ridiculous. We can’t all be slaves at some point, and we can’t all end up being legends.
This is why sandbox games from years past are the games people still bring up as having been great. Because they were, and no matter how great another game is, if you can’t be the character you want (even if you don’t role play, if you can’t be the kind of person you want), many people won’t stay very long. I know I cannot. I finish the game, and just like a single player game...I have beaten it. When I beat a game, that’s it. I’m done. I win.
You have to make a game you can’t beat.
wow is no way story driven unless you consider killing 10 boars as exciting storying telling. Age of conan has a story for the first 20 levels and then the vail of funcoms corruption is lifted and you see the game for what it really is. lotro does have story.
1) Once again, that's not what I said. I think everyone else is fairly clear on what I said, so repeating for a third time isn't worth the effort.
2) Also probably fairly clear to everyone else - the three paragraphs I spent re-explaining (for your benefit) the obvious.
3) Yes, you're obviously completely right!
By your logic, having to turn the pages while reading a book makes the reader more than a mere spectator. Or if you're watching a movie and lift a cheek to scratch your butt-crack - that totally drives the story!
Me making a mockery of the IP? No yoda'esque bad grammar, schmalzy force lines or quips about tongueing your own sister. Nope, no mocking Star Wars there. But good luck with trying to convince others that I'm anti-star wars which by extension would make you wonderful and everything you say really profound.
This is a turn off - I am not enticed!
I'm an unabashed altaholic, but mmos which provide no long-term playability other than re-playability via other classes - I think that's poor game design. It's the reason I stopped playing CoH.
Besides, the stories for those other classes will inevitably be told by other players and/or posted on various websites.
Everything about the game will eventually wind up on various websites. The endgame content will likely be the same endgame content as almost every other MMORPG, raiding and PvP.
If they make the experience different enough (through the stories, since actual gameplay will not likely be very different), and limit the need for grinding, they could possibly make playing alts more enjoyable than it has been done so far. I don't have any faith that they will do so, which puts the focus back on the end game, which will likely be raiding and PvP.
I don't think so. Raids take away the focus away from your character being the hero entirely. something Bioware is completely against. cause face it, needing 20 other *heroe's* to kill 1 NPC, has little to no hero feeling to it.
at most suspect small group type raids, maybe 5-10 people at most and 10 is stretching it.
but thats just my opinion.
im sure they will have instance's, but I suspect they will be more along the lines of TR's instance's rather then WoW's.
To most game developers, having to team with a hundred other players to kill a giant foozle is 'heroic'. I doubt the folks at BioWare are much different in that respect.
The 'heroicness' of the game seems to be the idea of removing the 'go kill ten rats' quests, as opposed to focusing on the players being the hero of the universe. Killing a giant foozle with a bunch of others would easily fit into that idea of 'heroic'. It isn't original, or creative, or even very appealing, but it will likely be the endgame content of the game, along with PvP.
WOW is more a hack-n-slash game with cool loot like Diablo. It is not story focus at all. In fact, they make it easy for u to skip the story (like u do NOT have to read the quest text and few people do).