Yup. Its a legal contract you sign so if you break it you just have to face the consequences.
That's just it-- for anyone outside of Greece, it's not legal at all, because people who are not citizens of Greece are not beholden to Greek law or Greek jurisdiction.
Find me any lawyer in England, or the States, or Germany, or anywhere outside of Greece who wouldn't fight that NDA or the jurisdiction clauses, and I'll show you a lawyer that should have their license to practice revoked. That NDA is a joke and wouldn't hold up in court anywhere outside of Athens.
Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA?
Is that a price worth to pay?
I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt.
Originally posted by Lidane Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail. If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
I dont know where you live...but in the EU, YOU SHOW UP to court.
Why? When nothing can happen to you when you don't.
In any place in the world if you dont' show up to court a warrent is issued for your arrest and you WILL face charges and you WILL go to jail for skipping out on court.
Originally posted by Lidane Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail. If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.
Anyone the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA? Breaking an NDA =/= breaking an actual law. I highly doubt the Greek government would ban me from entering the country because I posted a Darkfall screenshot or whatever.
If I was a terrorist, or a serious criminal threat to Greece? Sure, I could see them banning me, but over an NDA? Get real. Is that a price worth to pay? You've got to be kidding. The Greek government has other problems to deal with, like those recent riots they had. Aventurine's problems would be the absolute least of their worries. I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt. That NDA has as much legal weight as the DO NOT REMOVE tags on your mattress. It's a joke, and anyone scared of that NDA is kidding themselves.
I don't see many thing that are unusual here with their "NDA". The couple of things of note... 1) Having the NDA be binding for 5 years after termination of the beta test. This makes absolutely no sense as the NDA becomes voided once the NDA is lifted. It would never hold up in court and they know it. Why put it in unless either the presented NDA is a fake or Aventurine has no clue what they are doing. 2) Saying that any court proceedings will be under Greece jurisdiction. They well know that they cannot enforce national law if that law is not recognised by the nation that the defendant is a part of. Again this contract holds no weight outside of Greece. 3) They put in a provision that some of the NDA could be found not legally binding. So they themselves acknowledge that parts of this NDA would not hold up in court. This is rather standard however because NDAs and EULAs are difficult to prosecute with. 4) Aventurine implies in the NDA that they do not have to prove and damages in a court, that the court must recognize any breach as irreprable damage with no adaquate monetary value. This is completely untrue and holds no weight in a court of law. In fact this could be used against Aventurine as unreasonable expectations and likely help get the case thrown out.
If this circulating NDA is in fact a true document, then it is nothing more then smoke and mirrors. The true legal value of the document is suspect at best and would cost Aventurine far more to enforce then to actually allow breaches. It was a good laugh though.
You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong. International copy write law?
Last time I checked Greece is a recognized nation from everyone's point of view, so if they want to extradite you to their country to try to seek legal compensation they would have every right to do so, and most countries would turn you over for breaking international law.
You kids and your knowledge of law...
its all "It can't happen to me, I'm am American!" Lawl?
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
I've highlighted the relevant phrase.
You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.
I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.
Originally posted by Lidane I've highlighted the relevant phrase. You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one. I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.
If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore. Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.
Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA? Breaking an NDA =/= breaking an actual law. I highly doubt the Greek government would ban me from entering the country because I posted a Darkfall screenshot or whatever.
If I was a terrorist, or a serious criminal threat to Greece? Sure, I could see them banning me, but over an NDA? Get real. Is that a price worth to pay? You've got to be kidding. The Greek government has other problems to deal with, like those recent riots they had. Aventurine's problems would be the absolute least of their worries. I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt. That NDA has as much legal weight as the DO NOT REMOVE tags on your mattress. It's a joke, and anyone scared of that NDA is kidding themselves.
You will be in their system and it will show when you enter the airport and you will have to face consequences and visit their courts. This is about money and they take that serious.
If its established you caused the company Aventurine losses you will pay a fine, end of story.
You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong. International copy write law?
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
I've highlighted the relevant phrase.
You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.
I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.
Breaking a, wait let me highlight it for you, LEGAL, Document is normally viewed as a crime, ya know?
Their contract is a binding and legal doccument, its the same as if you just left your apartment and broke hte lease, you would be subject to fiscal resoncibility.
If you break the NDA and they can find a way to prove you messed with their earning potential they will sue you for all your worth.
If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore. Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.
I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.
Breaking a, wait let me highlight it for you, LEGAL, Document is normally viewed as a crime, ya know?
Please learn the difference between civil and criminal law. And please learn about jurisdiction.
That NDA is laughable on its face. I can find a bunch of loopholes in it,and I've only taken a couple of business law classes. A real lawyer could shred that NDA like a cat attacking a toilet paper roll.
If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore. Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.
I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.
It you were told to pay damages in Texas and you then went New York they wouldn't bother pursuing it? Of course they would and you would end up in whole world of trouble. It's the same in the EU.
Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA? Breaking an NDA =/= breaking an actual law. I highly doubt the Greek government would ban me from entering the country because I posted a Darkfall screenshot or whatever.
If I was a terrorist, or a serious criminal threat to Greece? Sure, I could see them banning me, but over an NDA? Get real. Is that a price worth to pay? You've got to be kidding. The Greek government has other problems to deal with, like those recent riots they had. Aventurine's problems would be the absolute least of their worries. I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt. That NDA has as much legal weight as the DO NOT REMOVE tags on your mattress. It's a joke, and anyone scared of that NDA is kidding themselves.
The govenment is just TOO Busy to get me, argument eh?
Your wrong, Ever heard of the no fly list?
People are on it who have literally done nothing more than post on a forum that they don't like the US, so if you think that Greece doesn't have officals sitting around with nothing better to do than find a way to earn more money for their country by persuing legal action against some foolish law breaking forigners?
I bet they have a larger department for that then most countries do. After all they probably need the money more.
Go through life thinking there won't be concequences.
You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong. International copy write law?
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
breaking an NDA Is breaking a legal document, if you are a lawyer I strongly suggest you go back to law school and retake the BAR.
Just because it seems trivial to you is not how it will be viewed by others, breaking a legal doccument is a serious offense, and it can result in legal action being taken, saying that nothing will happen or would happen to you is wishful thinking.
Go ahead, break the legal document, just see how long it takes before you get a mail saying your to appear in court in a different country.
You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong. International copy write law?
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
It's more money in videogames nowadays then in movies, and what does that tell us? Well it inform us its big money. Just look at how they chase people downloading movies and music and in that way creating these companies financial losses. NDA is serious business to these companies, just look at Aventurine.
It you were told to pay damages in Texas and you then went New York they wouldn't bother pursuing it? It's the same in the EU.
Your argument is flawed. Texas and New York are part of the same country, ergo the laws are similar.
If I'm told to pay damages in Greece, and without proof that I did anything wrong (since Aventurine miraculously doesn't have to provide proof of anything), but I live in and am a citizen of Germany, I'd hire a lawyer to fight that order, just due to jurisdiction.
Last I checked, the EU didn't erase the sovereignty of the individual countries. German citizens are not bound by Greek law. They're bound by German law. Aventurine would have to prove jurisdiction to enforce their NDA, and that's no simple task.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA. Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
This.
I'm laughing my ass off reading some of these kids who think that violating an NDA would lead to international fugitive status.
Anyone who thinks there would be extradition proceedings over a civil case involving a computer-game NDA is either a child or an idiot or both.
Go through life thinking there won't be concequences.
Oh, I know there are consequences in life.
However, the NDA that Aventurine has, if that in fact was the real document, is a joke. There's no way it would stand up in court to a real challenge, especially if they wasted the time and money to go after someone outside of Greece.
Originally posted by Lidane Your argument is flawed. Texas and New York are part of the same country, ergo the laws are similar. If I'm told to pay damages in Greece, and without proof that I did anything wrong (since Aventurine miraculously doesn't have to provide proof of anything), but I live in and am a citizen of Germany, I'd hire a lawyer to fight that order, just due to jurisdiction. Last I checked, the EU didn't erase the sovereignty of the individual countries. German citizens are not bound by Greek law. They're bound by German law. Aventurine would have to prove jurisdiction to enforce their NDA, and that's no simple task.
I think you are failing to realise how integrated the EU is . On my UK passport it says that I am citizen of the European Union, the highest court is the EU court, a bit like your Federal Court. I can't break laws in other EU countries and try to fight them in UK and stand any chance of success.
Originally posted by Jokerkaaos Originally posted by Lidane And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA. Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
This.
I'm laughing my ass off reading some of these kids who think that violating an NDA would lead to international fugitive status.
Anyone who thinks there would be extradition proceedings over a civil case involving a computer-game NDA is either a child or an idiot or both....someone actually said that? Talk about zero credibility
Go through life thinking there won't be concequences.
Oh, I know there are consequences in life.
However, the NDA that Aventurine has, if that in fact was the real document, is a joke. There's no way it would stand up in court to a real challenge, especially if they wasted the time and money to go after someone outside of Greece.
I think this thread have proven that pretty much most that reads it wouldnt gamble with this NDA.
I think you are failing to realise how integrated the EU is . On my UK passport it says that I am citizen of the European Union, the highest court is the EU court, a bit like your Federal Court. I can't break laws in other EU countries and try to fight them in UK and stand any chance of success.
I find it VERY difficult to believe that a UK court would simply roll over and allow a Greek court to impose a fine on you and demand money -- particularly without any proof of wrongdoing on your part by Aventurine -- and require you to pay it.
Sorry. I just don't see it happening. And the reactions from people over this are hysterical. I can't believe people are equating breaking an NDA for a video game with serious breaches of international law. I'm sitting here laughing at my desk.
Comments
That's just it-- for anyone outside of Greece, it's not legal at all, because people who are not citizens of Greece are not beholden to Greek law or Greek jurisdiction.
Find me any lawyer in England, or the States, or Germany, or anywhere outside of Greece who wouldn't fight that NDA or the jurisdiction clauses, and I'll show you a lawyer that should have their license to practice revoked. That NDA is a joke and wouldn't hold up in court anywhere outside of Athens.
Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA?
Is that a price worth to pay?
I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt.
Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
This was in 2000 as far as I know it much easier to do this now: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/872532.stm
Why? When nothing can happen to you when you don't.
In any place in the world if you dont' show up to court a warrent is issued for your arrest and you WILL face charges and you WILL go to jail for skipping out on court.
I love children who think they know the law
Anyone the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.
This was in 2000 as far as I know it much easier to do this now: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/872532.stm
Yup agree.
It's so funny reading these wannabe attourneys claiming this and claiming that without any clue about the legal system of EU or Greece.
You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong. International copy write law?
Last time I checked Greece is a recognized nation from everyone's point of view, so if they want to extradite you to their country to try to seek legal compensation they would have every right to do so, and most countries would turn you over for breaking international law.
You kids and your knowledge of law...
its all "It can't happen to me, I'm am American!" Lawl?
I've highlighted the relevant phrase.
You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.
I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.
If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore. Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.
You will be in their system and it will show when you enter the airport and you will have to face consequences and visit their courts. This is about money and they take that serious.
If its established you caused the company Aventurine losses you will pay a fine, end of story.
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
I've highlighted the relevant phrase.
You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.
I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.
Breaking a, wait let me highlight it for you, LEGAL, Document is normally viewed as a crime, ya know?
Their contract is a binding and legal doccument, its the same as if you just left your apartment and broke hte lease, you would be subject to fiscal resoncibility.
If you break the NDA and they can find a way to prove you messed with their earning potential they will sue you for all your worth.
I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.
Please learn the difference between civil and criminal law. And please learn about jurisdiction.
That NDA is laughable on its face. I can find a bunch of loopholes in it,and I've only taken a couple of business law classes. A real lawyer could shred that NDA like a cat attacking a toilet paper roll.
I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.
It you were told to pay damages in Texas and you then went New York they wouldn't bother pursuing it? Of course they would and you would end up in whole world of trouble. It's the same in the EU.
The govenment is just TOO Busy to get me, argument eh?
Your wrong, Ever heard of the no fly list?
People are on it who have literally done nothing more than post on a forum that they don't like the US, so if you think that Greece doesn't have officals sitting around with nothing better to do than find a way to earn more money for their country by persuing legal action against some foolish law breaking forigners?
I bet they have a larger department for that then most countries do. After all they probably need the money more.
Go through life thinking there won't be concequences.
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
breaking an NDA Is breaking a legal document, if you are a lawyer I strongly suggest you go back to law school and retake the BAR.
Just because it seems trivial to you is not how it will be viewed by others, breaking a legal doccument is a serious offense, and it can result in legal action being taken, saying that nothing will happen or would happen to you is wishful thinking.
Go ahead, break the legal document, just see how long it takes before you get a mail saying your to appear in court in a different country.
Lawl
Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.
And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to. Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.
Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.
It's more money in videogames nowadays then in movies, and what does that tell us? Well it inform us its big money. Just look at how they chase people downloading movies and music and in that way creating these companies financial losses. NDA is serious business to these companies, just look at Aventurine.
Your argument is flawed. Texas and New York are part of the same country, ergo the laws are similar.
If I'm told to pay damages in Greece, and without proof that I did anything wrong (since Aventurine miraculously doesn't have to provide proof of anything), but I live in and am a citizen of Germany, I'd hire a lawyer to fight that order, just due to jurisdiction.
Last I checked, the EU didn't erase the sovereignty of the individual countries. German citizens are not bound by Greek law. They're bound by German law. Aventurine would have to prove jurisdiction to enforce their NDA, and that's no simple task.
This.
I'm laughing my ass off reading some of these kids who think that violating an NDA would lead to international fugitive status.
Anyone who thinks there would be extradition proceedings over a civil case involving a computer-game NDA is either a child or an idiot or both.
Oh, I know there are consequences in life.
However, the NDA that Aventurine has, if that in fact was the real document, is a joke. There's no way it would stand up in court to a real challenge, especially if they wasted the time and money to go after someone outside of Greece.
I think you are failing to realise how integrated the EU is . On my UK passport it says that I am citizen of the European Union, the highest court is the EU court, a bit like your Federal Court. I can't break laws in other EU countries and try to fight them in UK and stand any chance of success.
I know, right?
Post a few screenshots of a video game and suddenly you're an international criminal! It's hilarious, and so utterly wrong on all counts.
This.
I'm laughing my ass off reading some of these kids who think that violating an NDA would lead to international fugitive status.
Anyone who thinks there would be extradition proceedings over a civil case involving a computer-game NDA is either a child or an idiot or both.
...someone actually said that? Talk about zero credibility
Oh, I know there are consequences in life.
However, the NDA that Aventurine has, if that in fact was the real document, is a joke. There's no way it would stand up in court to a real challenge, especially if they wasted the time and money to go after someone outside of Greece.
I think this thread have proven that pretty much most that reads it wouldnt gamble with this NDA.
I wouldnt.
I find it VERY difficult to believe that a UK court would simply roll over and allow a Greek court to impose a fine on you and demand money -- particularly without any proof of wrongdoing on your part by Aventurine -- and require you to pay it.
Sorry. I just don't see it happening. And the reactions from people over this are hysterical. I can't believe people are equating breaking an NDA for a video game with serious breaches of international law. I'm sitting here laughing at my desk.