The only thing i have to dissagree with the above post is that it doesnt take $500 a year to keep up to date with your computer and be able to play the current game.. You only have to upgrade about every 2-3yrs and the only thing you realy need to upgrade if you build your computer right in the first place is the video card
Even with the benefits of playing games on consoles over PC, games for the latter will still be done forever, free downloadable content is one of the biggest joys of it, and smart companies have encouraged it, just for an example, there are still people playing Half-Life mods on Steam, they're from a game made 10 years ago. Not to mention the companies developing mainly for the PC, like Valve, id Software, Blizzard, among others which got a hell of a reputation by the way.
There is a huge game modding community for PC games. So have fun with your Oblivion on the toy 360 without mods, because your missing out on thousands of Oblivion mods. And that's just one game.
As a grown up that's married and has sex on a regular basis....
It's gonna take more than virtual titties and ass to get my attention and make me spend $500+ a year on upgrades.
I'm 40 with a live-in girl friend 10 years younger than me (we started dating when she was 23), doesn't stop me from enjoying mods or great strategy games live civ 4, or building my own computers, or writing my own software.
I'm 40 with a live-in girl friend 10 years younger than me (we started dating when she was 23), doesn't stop me from enjoying mods or great strategy games live civ 4, or building my own computers, or writing my own software.
And you think that future consoles won't have support for this?
Nintendo already has a touch screen portable console. Would it be too far fetch to consider a portable console with a multi-touch screen in the future?
I don't think I even have to mention that you trumpeting this undermines your declaration that a mouse and keyboard are the "ultimate game controller."
Console: 1) I put in game 2) Play game 3) Get bored of game after a week 4) Waste 60 bucks PC: 1) Download game 2) Install 3) Sleep patch 4) Have fun next day 5) Enjoy game for two years
I didn't know clicking a few buttons using about 2 muscles of the human finger was really all that bad and worth writing down.
This is pretty much my take on it also.......Except for a couple of sports games I dont think I have played any game on console that lasted more than a week or two........I have played many PC games for several months though.....PC gaming jsut seems to offer alot more depth than console......Certain games play well with a gamepad but overall I like to game with keyboard and mouse more..... Also the price of console games is outrageous, especially considering the short term life of the game.
but heres my 2 cents or 1 cent...not sure where the other cent is even going :P
PC will always be ahead of conoles, its a known fact, graphics, technology alone is greater on PC...i love upgrading my PC, i dont really care to much about the money factor, plus the key board and mouse just feel right when it comes to gaming, RTS's feel better, RPG's, FPS's...expect platforms mabe...but eww @ platforms lol
I just wish KIllzone 2 would port over to the PC, even if the controls were fubar...ahhh the game would be badass!
Uh....what do you think that table is? Its a console.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
PC will always be ahead of conoles, its a known fact, graphics, technology alone is greater on PC...
I have to ask: Do graphics and technology always make for a great game?
I still own a Dreamcast and I still play Sould Calibur, Virtual on, Phantasy Star Online, Crazy Taxi, and occasionally replay Jet Grind Radio. I know for a fact that there are people playing Quake Live right now who could be playing CoD4 or Crysis. I can still enjoy RC Pro Am or Blades of Steel on the original NES. X-Com and Red Baron are just as good today as they were on the day that they were released.
Don't get me wrong, looks matter. But looks alone aren't going to make a shitty game into a timeless classic.
Wow. Mr Jimmy Scythe, who bloody cares about your sexlife? Thought this thread was about games on pc/consoles. Funny when people begin to include their sexlife in a thread for games to somehow prove their superiority. Talk about the games or shut up is my advice. When you include your sexlife in the discussion, you've lost, unless the discussion was about people's sexlife in the first place. Just for your information, people enjoy those nudemods even when they are in a relationship. Sure, the gf's may shake their heads at the immature 30-somethings behind the keyboard but they stick around anyway. Everyone is so quick to play the sexcard in threads nowadays. It's bloody everywhere. No, I won't tell you about my sexlife cause frankly, it's doesn't have any business in this thread nor any of the users of mmorgp.com.
Anyway, pc's are more versatile than the consoles. So there you have the truth. Nomatter what they do to a console, pc's will beat them into a bloody pulp with their versatility.
Wow. Mr Jimmy Scythe, who bloody cares about your sexlife? Thought this thread was about games on pc/consoles. Funny when people begin to include their sexlife in a thread for games to somehow prove their superiority. Talk about the games or shut up is my advice. When you include your sexlife in the discussion, you've lost, unless the discussion was about people's sexlife in the first place. Just for your information, people enjoy those nudemods even when they are in a relationship. Sure, the gf's may shake their heads at the immature 30-somethings behind the keyboard but they stick around anyway. Everyone is so quick to play the sexcard in threads nowadays. It's bloody everywhere. No, I won't tell you about my sexlife cause frankly, it's doesn't have any business in this thread nor any of the users of mmorgp.com. Anyway, pc's are more versatile than the consoles. So there you have the truth. Nomatter what they do to a console, pc's will beat them into a bloody pulp with their versatility.
Have you actually been reading this thread? I can't imagine that you have if you completely missed the context of the conversation. Greenchaos threw down Oblivion nude mods as some kind of proof that PCs were better and I replied that only little kids or people with no sex life would see that as a lure to PC gaming. Not that consoles don't have some softcore porn on display as well, Rumble Roses and the threeway scene in God of War come directly to mind.
Point is, I didn't bring my sex life into the argument out of context. Nude mods don't appeal to me, or many other gamers over 30, because sex is not a big deal to me anymore. That kind of thing happens when you grow up.
Have you actually been reading this thread? I can't imagine that you have if you completely missed the context of the conversation. Greenchaos threw down Oblivion nude mods as some kind of proof that PCs were better and I replied that only little kids or people with no sex life would see that as a lure to PC gaming. Not that consoles don't have some softcore porn on display as well, Rumble Roses and the threeway scene in God of War come directly to mind. Point is, I didn't bring my sex life into the argument out of context. Nude mods don't appeal to me, or many other gamers over 30, because sex is not a big deal to me anymore. That kind of thing happens when you grow up.
I guess he was joking with the nude mods argument... The best part of mods at least for me is how many of them add significant changes to gameplay, or refine the existing one inspired by another game (like in this mod), and actually deliver a very good experience, so a game with many good mods means you won't be bored for a while, without having to pay for the extra content.
Wow. Mr Jimmy Scythe, who bloody cares about your sexlife? Thought this thread was about games on pc/consoles. Funny when people begin to include their sexlife in a thread for games to somehow prove their superiority. Talk about the games or shut up is my advice. When you include your sexlife in the discussion, you've lost, unless the discussion was about people's sexlife in the first place. Just for your information, people enjoy those nudemods even when they are in a relationship. Sure, the gf's may shake their heads at the immature 30-somethings behind the keyboard but they stick around anyway. Everyone is so quick to play the sexcard in threads nowadays. It's bloody everywhere. No, I won't tell you about my sexlife cause frankly, it's doesn't have any business in this thread nor any of the users of mmorgp.com. Anyway, pc's are more versatile than the consoles. So there you have the truth. Nomatter what they do to a console, pc's will beat them into a bloody pulp with their versatility.
Have you actually been reading this thread? I can't imagine that you have if you completely missed the context of the conversation. Greenchaos threw down Oblivion nude mods as some kind of proof that PCs were better and I replied that only little kids or people with no sex life would see that as a lure to PC gaming. Not that consoles don't have some softcore porn on display as well, Rumble Roses and the threeway scene in God of War come directly to mind.
Point is, I didn't bring my sex life into the argument out of context. Nude mods don't appeal to me, or many other gamers over 30, because sex is not a big deal to me anymore. That kind of thing happens when you grow up.
Yes, I've been reading the thread. It's basically a trollthread and a flamebait so what's not to like about this one. Anyway, I'm myself a 30-something too and sex is still quite the big issue with me, so I guess we differ in opinions there. Yes, nudemods appeal to me cause I very much love the female form. Your point being? Anyway, I very much think he threw the nudemods out there as a joke. His point wasn't the nudemods, but the mods themselfes. I'm quite sure of that actually.
You cant rent a PC game lol? Dont tell me you guys in america cant rent a pc game?
Well.... Technically MMORPGs could be considered rental games since you don't actually own them and have to rent in the form of a subscription.
Other than that though, no. No we don't rent PC games because of the ease in pirating PC games. You can rip the disc image of a console game, but you won't be able to run it on an unmodified console. PC games on the other hand.....
We can piss an moan about hardware specs and control configurations all day long and get no where on this issue. The real bottom line here is the number of games and the ease of use. Let's compare... Console: 1) I buy, or rent, a game. 2) I turn on the console, put the game in and the game runs. 3) If I'm on XBox live, I may have to download a patch, but that normally doesn't take more than three minutes tops and then I'm playing the game. PC (retail): 1) I buy, becuase you can't rent, a game. 2) I turn on my PC, put the game in and the autorun begins begins the installation wizard. 3) I am then required to aggree to an End User License Agreement before the game asks me to enter a 25 digit alphanumeric key located on the CD sleave / case. 4) At this point, the game begins installing. If I'm lucky, the install will take about ten minutes. 5) If I'm not lucky, the install will stop every five minutes and ask me to insert another CD. 6) After the last CD has installed, I'm then asked to insert Disk 1 and am asked if I want to install Gamespy Arcade, Xfire, Yahoo toolbar, or any other crapware that the developer is getting a gratuity check from. 7) After declining all that shit, I click the finish button with the launch game radio button clicked. 8) The game loads to the title menu at a whopping 4 frames per second. 9) I then spend the next two hours in the graphics options adjusting resolution, texture detail, model detail, particle effects, anti-aliasing settings, and various other cryptic shit until I have about 24 frames per second, at which point the game looks less like the screen shots on the box and more like Quake 2. 10) Back at the title menu now, I start up the game and get told that I need to patch to the latest version and the game dumps me to the desktop and starts the updater that spends the next three hours downloading shit. 11) With the update finally installed, I restart the game and click on "new game" on the title menu. I then get to see the opening cinematics using the in-game engine and play the first ten seconds of tutorial when the game crashes and I find myself back on my desktop. The download version of the PC game experience is different only in that you spend 6 to 10 hours downloading the game and you don't have to swap CDs. The Steam version foregoes the first 7steps and doesn't allow you to play your games offline. PC elitists can call console gamers retards all they want. Take a look at that list and tell me who is really the retard in this situation.
None of that matters. It's all about mouse and keyboard, versus console controllers.
In a first person shooter on a console, aimbots are used, programs that help you aim because a controller is not and will never be as accurate as a mouse and keyboard.
They dumb down RTS games, because it's hard to control all the troops with a controller compared to a mouse and keyboard.
That's the reall issue. Otherwise a console has most of the guts of a computer these days.
None of that matters. It's all about mouse and keyboard, versus console controllers.
In a first person shooter on a console, aimbots are used, programs that help you aim because a controller is not and will never be as accurate as a mouse and keyboard.
They dumb down RTS games, because it's hard to control all the troops with a controller compared to a mouse and keyboard.
That's the reall issue. Otherwise a console has most of the guts of a computer these days.
Read the rest of the thread. We've already covered this.
Quick recap: It's not the controller. It's the player and what the player is most comfortable with.
BTW, RTS games being a whole different matter, have you tried Endwar yet? Voice commands, controlling the cursor with the left stick and panning the whold map when you move the cursor seems to be the best set up for RTS games. C&C3 may not have been as quick to play on the 360 as it was on the PC, but all the controls were there and the gap is closing. Voice commands will probably be what closes that gap for good.
6) After the last CD has installed, I'm then asked to insert Disk 1 and am asked if I want to install Gamespy Arcade, Xfire, Yahoo toolbar, or any other crapware that the developer is getting a gratuity check from.
See above, however you can just click no, XFire though is a good choice of software. And so is Gamespy arcade if you prefer that rather than the basic server browsers.
The point being that I shouldn't have to decline this shit. If I want it, I'll just download it and install it myself. K? Games are expensive to make. I'd like to see you make a game, then when offered a fat check for putting this small additional feature in the installation process, decline it. 8) The game loads to the title menu at a whopping 4 frames per second.
Read the minimum requirements before buying, And you've never bought a game that didn't run correctly even though you had the recommended system specs? How long have you been playing PC games? Supreme Commander anyone? Crysis? I understand the Empire Total War has a bad case of the crashes as well. Sure, these things get patched... eventually, but I've never had a console game crash. Console games either run, or they don't run. I have seen console games crash, I've seen PC games crash. I've also had console games that never crash, and I've had PC games that have never crashes. The thing about this is making a game for a console is simple, in that every single machine that this game will run on is a carbon copy of eachother. In the case of a PC, all PCs are different, which means that while it may crash on someone's PC, it'll never crash on someone else's.
Games are expensive to make. I'd like to see you make a game, then when offered a fat check for putting this small additional feature in the installation process, decline it.
If a developer can't cover their budget without hard selling someone else's crapware then that Isn't my problem. I don't want it. I don't want to be hassled with it. I don't appreciate having this shit thrown in my face and if that means I have to play on consoles to avoid this sleazy shit then so be it. Advertising is what is done in proxy of actually paying for something. If I'm paying for it, then there shouldn't be any fucking ads. Comprende amigo?
I have seen console games crash, I've seen PC games crash. I've also had console games that never crash, and I've had PC games that have never crashes. The thing about this is making a game for a console is simple, in that every single machine that this game will run on is a carbon copy of eachother. In the case of a PC, all PCs are different, which means that while it may crash on someone's PC, it'll never crash on someone else's. You've seen a console crash? That's a new one on me and I've been playing games since the Atari 2600. I've seen consoles not work due to aging hardware. If you've played any NES games on the original hardware lately you'll know the joys of blowing into the cartridge repeatedly to get everything working for example. Likewise, the system battery in my Dreamcast died long ago and now I have to reset the date and time everytime I turn it on. But Crash? No, I've never seen anything like that on a console. If the hardware and software are in mint condition, then everything either runs or doesn't run. If the system is less than five years old and the disc isn't scratched, then everything will work 99.99% of the time. Reliability DOES matter. And if the problem with PCs is that there are too many configurations for developers to cover then I'll just avoid the problem altogether and game on a standardized platform.
I dont know aobut you but, i concider the red ring of death to be an epic crash...Had my xbox crap out 3 times on me in the first 3months, after replacement number 4 ive never actuallybought a game for it again.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I dont know aobut you but, i concider the red ring of death to be an epic crash...Had my xbox crap out 3 times on me in the first 3months, after replacement number 4 ive never actuallybought a game for it again.
Not to get all semantic and everything but crashes are generally software issues. The blue screen of death is a crash. The infinitely spinning color wheel in OS X is a crash. The red ring of death is a revision A hardward defect.
I bought my 360 last year and haven't had any problems with it. Many of the people that I know held out for about year after launch before buying theirs and haven't had any problems. This is the reason you never, never, never buy hardware at launch. Especially overly hyped hardware. The PSP had dead pixel issues and problems with the UMDs ejecting at high speed randomly. The iPhone had various software and hardware defects directly after launch. Microsoft not only had hardware defects, but they kept replacing RMA'd 360s with refurbished units rather than new stock. As a result, many of the FUBAR'd XBox 360s are still in circulation.
Seriously, the XBox 360 is the only console that I recomend people buy new rather than used. Well, I also made that recomendation with the original Playstation since games wouldn't run after year unless you turned the whole thing upside down....
Comments
The only thing i have to dissagree with the above post is that it doesnt take $500 a year to keep up to date with your computer and be able to play the current game.. You only have to upgrade about every 2-3yrs and the only thing you realy need to upgrade if you build your computer right in the first place is the video card
Even with the benefits of playing games on consoles over PC, games for the latter will still be done forever, free downloadable content is one of the biggest joys of it, and smart companies have encouraged it, just for an example, there are still people playing Half-Life mods on Steam, they're from a game made 10 years ago. Not to mention the companies developing mainly for the PC, like Valve, id Software, Blizzard, among others which got a hell of a reputation by the way.
As a grown up that's married and has sex on a regular basis....
It's gonna take more than virtual titties and ass to get my attention and make me spend $500+ a year on upgrades.
I'm 40 with a live-in girl friend 10 years younger than me (we started dating when she was 23), doesn't stop me from enjoying mods or great strategy games live civ 4, or building my own computers, or writing my own software.
Now I'm really going to end this conversion.
You can't do this with a console
And yes you can build one yourself.
I'm 40 with a live-in girl friend 10 years younger than me (we started dating when she was 23), doesn't stop me from enjoying mods or great strategy games live civ 4, or building my own computers, or writing my own software.
Now I'm really going to end this conversion.
You can't do this with a console
And yes you can build one yourself.
Okay...
And you think that future consoles won't have support for this?
Nintendo already has a touch screen portable console. Would it be too far fetch to consider a portable console with a multi-touch screen in the future?
I don't think I even have to mention that you trumpeting this undermines your declaration that a mouse and keyboard are the "ultimate game controller."
Nice stuff! Add virtual googles for my filght simulator and I'll be the most happy player
This is pretty much my take on it also.......Except for a couple of sports games I dont think I have played any game on console that lasted more than a week or two........I have played many PC games for several months though.....PC gaming jsut seems to offer alot more depth than console......Certain games play well with a gamepad but overall I like to game with keyboard and mouse more..... Also the price of console games is outrageous, especially considering the short term life of the game.
This argument will go on forever, lol
but heres my 2 cents or 1 cent...not sure where the other cent is even going :P
PC will always be ahead of conoles, its a known fact, graphics, technology alone is greater on PC...i love upgrading my PC, i dont really care to much about the money factor, plus the key board and mouse just feel right when it comes to gaming, RTS's feel better, RPG's, FPS's...expect platforms mabe...but eww @ platforms lol
I just wish KIllzone 2 would port over to the PC, even if the controls were fubar...ahhh the game would be badass!
http://acominos.evony.com <- if your bored at work
Uh....what do you think that table is? Its a console.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I have to ask: Do graphics and technology always make for a great game?
I still own a Dreamcast and I still play Sould Calibur, Virtual on, Phantasy Star Online, Crazy Taxi, and occasionally replay Jet Grind Radio. I know for a fact that there are people playing Quake Live right now who could be playing CoD4 or Crysis. I can still enjoy RC Pro Am or Blades of Steel on the original NES. X-Com and Red Baron are just as good today as they were on the day that they were released.
Don't get me wrong, looks matter. But looks alone aren't going to make a shitty game into a timeless classic.
Wow. Mr Jimmy Scythe, who bloody cares about your sexlife? Thought this thread was about games on pc/consoles. Funny when people begin to include their sexlife in a thread for games to somehow prove their superiority. Talk about the games or shut up is my advice. When you include your sexlife in the discussion, you've lost, unless the discussion was about people's sexlife in the first place. Just for your information, people enjoy those nudemods even when they are in a relationship. Sure, the gf's may shake their heads at the immature 30-somethings behind the keyboard but they stick around anyway. Everyone is so quick to play the sexcard in threads nowadays. It's bloody everywhere. No, I won't tell you about my sexlife cause frankly, it's doesn't have any business in this thread nor any of the users of mmorgp.com.
Anyway, pc's are more versatile than the consoles. So there you have the truth. Nomatter what they do to a console, pc's will beat them into a bloody pulp with their versatility.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Have you actually been reading this thread? I can't imagine that you have if you completely missed the context of the conversation. Greenchaos threw down Oblivion nude mods as some kind of proof that PCs were better and I replied that only little kids or people with no sex life would see that as a lure to PC gaming. Not that consoles don't have some softcore porn on display as well, Rumble Roses and the threeway scene in God of War come directly to mind.
Point is, I didn't bring my sex life into the argument out of context. Nude mods don't appeal to me, or many other gamers over 30, because sex is not a big deal to me anymore. That kind of thing happens when you grow up.
I guess he was joking with the nude mods argument... The best part of mods at least for me is how many of them add significant changes to gameplay, or refine the existing one inspired by another game (like in this mod), and actually deliver a very good experience, so a game with many good mods means you won't be bored for a while, without having to pay for the extra content.
Have you actually been reading this thread? I can't imagine that you have if you completely missed the context of the conversation. Greenchaos threw down Oblivion nude mods as some kind of proof that PCs were better and I replied that only little kids or people with no sex life would see that as a lure to PC gaming. Not that consoles don't have some softcore porn on display as well, Rumble Roses and the threeway scene in God of War come directly to mind.
Point is, I didn't bring my sex life into the argument out of context. Nude mods don't appeal to me, or many other gamers over 30, because sex is not a big deal to me anymore. That kind of thing happens when you grow up.
Yes, I've been reading the thread. It's basically a trollthread and a flamebait so what's not to like about this one. Anyway, I'm myself a 30-something too and sex is still quite the big issue with me, so I guess we differ in opinions there. Yes, nudemods appeal to me cause I very much love the female form. Your point being? Anyway, I very much think he threw the nudemods out there as a joke. His point wasn't the nudemods, but the mods themselfes. I'm quite sure of that actually.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
You cant rent a PC game lol? Dont tell me you guys in america cant rent a pc game?
Well i never saw before a mode on a console oh snap.
people still buy games?
people still buy games?
If you want play MMORPGS and some other games online 4 sure.
Well.... Technically MMORPGs could be considered rental games since you don't actually own them and have to rent in the form of a subscription.
Other than that though, no. No we don't rent PC games because of the ease in pirating PC games. You can rip the disc image of a console game, but you won't be able to run it on an unmodified console. PC games on the other hand.....
None of that matters. It's all about mouse and keyboard, versus console controllers.
In a first person shooter on a console, aimbots are used, programs that help you aim because a controller is not and will never be as accurate as a mouse and keyboard.
They dumb down RTS games, because it's hard to control all the troops with a controller compared to a mouse and keyboard.
That's the reall issue. Otherwise a console has most of the guts of a computer these days.
None of that matters. It's all about mouse and keyboard, versus console controllers.
In a first person shooter on a console, aimbots are used, programs that help you aim because a controller is not and will never be as accurate as a mouse and keyboard.
They dumb down RTS games, because it's hard to control all the troops with a controller compared to a mouse and keyboard.
That's the reall issue. Otherwise a console has most of the guts of a computer these days.
Read the rest of the thread. We've already covered this.
Quick recap: It's not the controller. It's the player and what the player is most comfortable with.
BTW, RTS games being a whole different matter, have you tried Endwar yet? Voice commands, controlling the cursor with the left stick and panning the whold map when you move the cursor seems to be the best set up for RTS games. C&C3 may not have been as quick to play on the 360 as it was on the PC, but all the controls were there and the gap is closing. Voice commands will probably be what closes that gap for good.
I dont know aobut you but, i concider the red ring of death to be an epic crash...Had my xbox crap out 3 times on me in the first 3months, after replacement number 4 ive never actuallybought a game for it again.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
wonder how many people use their consoles to respond to this thread
I dont know aobut you but, i concider the red ring of death to be an epic crash...Had my xbox crap out 3 times on me in the first 3months, after replacement number 4 ive never actuallybought a game for it again.
Not to get all semantic and everything but crashes are generally software issues. The blue screen of death is a crash. The infinitely spinning color wheel in OS X is a crash. The red ring of death is a revision A hardward defect.
I bought my 360 last year and haven't had any problems with it. Many of the people that I know held out for about year after launch before buying theirs and haven't had any problems. This is the reason you never, never, never buy hardware at launch. Especially overly hyped hardware. The PSP had dead pixel issues and problems with the UMDs ejecting at high speed randomly. The iPhone had various software and hardware defects directly after launch. Microsoft not only had hardware defects, but they kept replacing RMA'd 360s with refurbished units rather than new stock. As a result, many of the FUBAR'd XBox 360s are still in circulation.
Seriously, the XBox 360 is the only console that I recomend people buy new rather than used. Well, I also made that recomendation with the original Playstation since games wouldn't run after year unless you turned the whole thing upside down....