It is very naive of them not to implement a way where players can choose either 1st or 3rd person view. Look at it this way, if World of Warcraft was 1st person mode only how many players do you think the game would have today ? If they want more players to try their game then they should make it a choice between 1st or 3rd person view.
You guys who says there must be TPV dont understand anyhing so please gtfo and play you little dressing game were you can see how awesome you think you look.
It is very naive of them not to implement a way where players can choose either 1st or 3rd person view. Look at it this way, if World of Warcraft was 1st person mode only how many players do you think the game would have today ? If they want more players to try their game then they should make it a choice between 1st or 3rd person view.
Take a moment and think of all the game mechanics that you get to impliment into a game just based on the FPV. Do you think Halflife 2 would have been anywhere as near as immersive in 3rd person view?
In a 3rd person game, your character is blinded... and gets a -2 to hit (a debuff or CC)
In a 1st person game, YOU are blinded and cant see crap because your screen is white.
Come back when you're ready to think outside of the WoW box.
There are plenty of games that don't have a 3rd person view. Even games like Morrowind and Oblivion felt a bit better in First person view.
doom and half life are both in first person.
Dark Messiah is first person
quake is first person
There are game advantages and even immersion advantages to making it 1st person. Essentially the devs are making a sort of fantasy fps mmo.
Players are constantly saying they want different but when someone comes and does something different they don't like it.
I do feel for the people who get dizzy at 1st person but I also assume that they don't play other first person games as well.
I do understand the desire for 3rd person as there is something very visceral in seeing your character actually fight. But in this case, the game puts you more into the driver's seat as opposed to an active spectator. It's a very conscious design choice and one that had very perceptible game play ramifications.
And it looks like it's in good condition for a game approaching beta. I think we may have a contender here (though we won't know if it's a winner until we play it).
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This is sort of a ridiculous discussion. There are plenty of games that don't have a 3rd person view. Even games like Morrowind and Oblivion felt a bit better in First person view. doom and half life are both in first person. Dark Messiah is first person quake is first person There are game advantages and even immersion advantages to making it 1st person. Essentially the devs are making a sort of fantasy fps mmo. Players are constantly saying they want different but when someone comes and does something different they don't like it. I do feel for the people who get dizzy at 1st person but I also assume that they don't play other first person games as well. I do understand the desire for 3rd person as there is something very visceral in seeing your character actually fight. But in this case, the game puts you more into the driver's seat as opposed to an active spectator. It's a very conscious design choice and one that had very perceptible game play ramifications. And it looks like it's in good condition for a game approaching beta. I think we may have a contender here (though we won't know if it's a winner until we play it).
Good post.
btw Dark Messiah is probably one of the best games i have ever played, the game didnt get enough credit, beat it like 5 times over and the multplayer is ALOT of fun!
Not putting 3d person view in the game is like cutting more than half of the MMO market, me included. When I want to play 1st person I play CS, CSS, R6, not a MMOG. Hope they will come back on their decision and open this sandbox game to us.
3rd person = you can see 360 around you. so you cant be surrounded as easy (does happen but its harder not to see it coming)
1st person = you dont see the guy beside/behind you until you turn.
though i like 1st person having been an avid FPSer for many years. you get a nack for doing the 360 spin run as you walk around.
plus it almost more entertaining to actually see your hand/weapon do the final hit then watching your toon swing its weapon around.
i recall an old BF42 mod that allowed you to see your toon in 3rd person.. but you lost your crosshairs and other important things....man was it confusing if you clicked the wrong button....
but ya only time/testing will show if 1st person is good for MO or mmos ingeneral. or if its better left to FPS style games
You guys who says there must be TPV dont understand anyhing so please gtfo and play you little dressing game were you can see how awesome you think you look.
Probably you should connect your brain before posting, my lil 10 year-old kid.
Originally posted by Sovrath This is sort of a ridiculous discussion. There are plenty of games that don't have a 3rd person view.
True, but how many MMOs don't have a 3rd person view at all? How many MMOs are 1st person only? That's why this is a novel discussion. It's not like every other game released comes in only 1st person. I think that's why this topic is pretty relevant.
They should never compromise the integrity of a project just to try and satisfy the needs of the masses. MO has been designed from the ground up as a first person experience. It's naive to think that it is going to change.
If you dismiss a game because of a first person view, then simply do not play it. We have seen in other games that the market for first person games is immense. It is simply an untapped resource in MMO gaming, because so many veterans are used to a 3rd person view.
There are plenty of games that don't have a 3rd person view.
True, but how many MMOs don't have a 3rd person view at all? How many MMOs are 1st person only? That's why this is a novel discussion. It's not like every other game released comes in only 1st person. I think that's why this topic is pretty relevant.
My thought is that just because mmo's have traditionally had 3rd person view doesn't make it so that they have to always have 3rd person view.
Sure, the discussion is novel but I find the resistance to it somewhat surprising.
Almost (but not quite) like taking early games with isometric view then changing them to have full 3d and then having people become upset because games "should" be in isometric view.
Perhaps a better clarification is that I find the "resistance to 1st person view to be surprising and silly" to my thinking.
I don't know, maybe I'm alone here, but I just don't freak out about stuff like this. When I get a game, any game, I see what the rules are, how it's set up and then just go with it.
I didn't start playing Dark Messiah only to think "god, it really should be in 3rd person" or Doom or Quake or Half-Life, etc...
And if the game plays a lot like a fps then doesn't it make sense that 1st person view would work very well? With all the cries that games are "wow clones" and that devs aren't doing anything different, we now have something different for all of us to work with. Not only that but it gives us a very different game play experience and something that we haven't had in an mmo ... well ... to my knowledge, ever.
The idea being that regardless of 1st person or 3rd person view, if it's done well then the game play experience will be rewarding.
To that end, if mmo's were always in 1st person and suddenly we had 3rd person introduced, would we then get people saying "omg, it's 3rd person I'm so not playing it, they've lost my 15 bucks!"
So this is where I feel it's a bit silly.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
lol They don't have to get over it, they just won't play it. That's money lost which means its incredibly stupid on the part of Star Vault. Personally, I love 1st person, and am finally glad to have an mmorpg where i can play 1st person AND see my weapons, hands, etc. But i can't really understand why people can't have a choice. It's not like people asking for a PvE server on a PvP-centric game, its a client-side feature that is a cakewalk to turn on and yields no gameplay advantage in PvP.
Forcing 1st person only = money lost, reduction in overall player base may affect gameplay (empty worlds suck) Giving a choice = money gained, no gameplay impact
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
lol They don't have to get over it, they just won't play it. That's money lost which means its incredibly stupid on the part of Star Vault. Personally, I love 1st person, and am finally glad to have an mmorpg where i can play 1st person AND see my weapons, hands, etc. But i can't really understand why people can't have a choice. It's not like people asking for a PvE server on a PvP-centric game, its a client-side feature that is a cakewalk to turn on and yields no gameplay advantage in PvP.
Forcing 1st person only = money lost, reduction in overall player base may affect gameplay (empty worlds suck) Giving a choice = money gained, no gameplay impact
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Well, there's realism and there's "realism".
So sure, it does give you a tunnel vision by its very nature. I think if they were to warp the sides so that it seemed like you had a peripheral vision, it could cause more problems then it would solve. what it does allow for is a limited view which, regardless of our peripheral vision, is "limited". I can't see to the back of me.
This really allows for a player be attacked when they are not paying attention as opposed to a bird's eye view that allows for a limited 360 view point.
It allows for players to only make decisions based upon what is in front of you. And as I said above, it puts you more into the action as opposed to an active spectator.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Seems kind of rediculous to me to hate a game because they force first person, many games force you into a certain veiw type so why should an MMO doing it be any different?
If you dont like it dont play it, Im sure you'll find a game that suits you.
My thought is that just because mmo's have traditionally had 3rd person view doesn't make it so that they have to always have 3rd person view. Sure, the discussion is novel but I find the resistance to it somewhat surprising. Almost (but not quite) like taking early games with isometric view then changing them to have full 3d and then having people become upset because games "should" be in isometric view. Perhaps a better clarification is that I find the "resistance to 1st person view to be surprising and silly" to my thinking. I don't know, maybe I'm alone here, but I just don't freak out about stuff like this. When I get a game, any game, I see what the rules are, how it's set up and then just go with it. I didn't start playing Dark Messiah only to think "god, it really should be in 3rd person" or Doom or Quake or Half-Life, etc... And if the game plays a lot like a fps then doesn't it make sense that 1st person view would work very well? With all the cries that games are "wow clones" and that devs aren't doing anything different, we now have something different for all of us to work with. Not only that but it gives us a very different game play experience and something that we haven't had in an mmo ... well ... to my knowledge, ever. The idea being that regardless of 1st person or 3rd person view, if it's done well then the game play experience will be rewarding. To that end, if mmo's were always in 1st person and suddenly we had 3rd person introduced, would we then get people saying "omg, it's 3rd person I'm so not playing it, they've lost my 15 bucks!" So this is where I feel it's a bit silly.
I don't think people are all saying that Mortal Online or any other MMO should only be available as a 3rd person viewer. I see few if any, arguing that point. You are right that just because it was always that way with MMOs, that it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I'd be the first to argue for innovational thinking outside the traditional box. Diversity makes for more ideas to come from those type of products.
But what you have definitely seen is an interest in the Mortal Online MMO from announcement. People know the IP, and loved the game so they would really like to give it a try. The original MO games weren't even in 1st or 3rd person view at all, so that shows just how far its come. All people are really asking for, not demanding, is a rethink on the 1st person view "only" aspect to the game. People don't like fewer choices for their entertainment dollar, they want more. By saying stiffly that only 1st person is available leaves those who might have considered trying it in a much more restricted space. Now people will always vote with their wallet as a rule. Very few buy crap they don't actually want to buy. So if the MO people who make the game are intractable and say "1st person view only", they have to understand there will be some initial griping, but ultimately there are people who will simply not play it just like there are people who will simply not play a full loot PvP game.
If they understand that and intend to stick to their guns, I salute them because apparently, the MO base WANT that as only and its non-negotiable. I would hate for any company, no matter the product to water it down so they can get mass appeal. It ends up sucking both ways; for the masses and for the fringe. But they have to realize that they already exclude a large portion of the gaming market who will not play a game that does not offer a choice.
My thought is that just because mmo's have traditionally had 3rd person view doesn't make it so that they have to always have 3rd person view.
Sure, the discussion is novel but I find the resistance to it somewhat surprising.
Almost (but not quite) like taking early games with isometric view then changing them to have full 3d and then having people become upset because games "should" be in isometric view.
Perhaps a better clarification is that I find the "resistance to 1st person view to be surprising and silly" to my thinking.
I don't know, maybe I'm alone here, but I just don't freak out about stuff like this. When I get a game, any game, I see what the rules are, how it's set up and then just go with it.
I didn't start playing Dark Messiah only to think "god, it really should be in 3rd person" or Doom or Quake or Half-Life, etc...
And if the game plays a lot like a fps then doesn't it make sense that 1st person view would work very well? With all the cries that games are "wow clones" and that devs aren't doing anything different, we now have something different for all of us to work with. Not only that but it gives us a very different game play experience and something that we haven't had in an mmo ... well ... to my knowledge, ever.
The idea being that regardless of 1st person or 3rd person view, if it's done well then the game play experience will be rewarding.
To that end, if mmo's were always in 1st person and suddenly we had 3rd person introduced, would we then get people saying "omg, it's 3rd person I'm so not playing it, they've lost my 15 bucks!"
So this is where I feel it's a bit silly.
I don't think people are all saying that Mortal Online or any other MMO should only be available as a 3rd person viewer. I see few if any, arguing that point. You are right that just because it was always that way with MMOs, that it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I'd be the first to argue for innovational thinking outside the traditional box. Diversity makes for more ideas to come from those type of products.
But what you have definitely seen is an interest in the Mortal Online MMO from announcement. People know the IP, and loved the game so they would really like to give it a try. The original MO games weren't even in 1st or 3rd person view at all, so that shows just how far its come. All people are really asking for, not demanding, is a rethink on the 1st person view "only" aspect to the game. People don't like fewer choices for their entertainment dollar, they want more. By saying stiffly that only 1st person is available leaves those who might have considered trying it in a much more restricted space. Now people will always vote with their wallet as a rule. Very few buy crap they don't actually want to buy. So if the MO people who make the game are intractable and say "1st person view only", they have to understand there will be some initial griping, but ultimately there are people who will simply not play it just like there are people who will simply not play a full loot PvP game.
If they understand that and intend to stick to their guns, I salute them because apparently, the MO base WANT that as only and its non-negotiable. I would hate for any company, no matter the product to water it down so they can get mass appeal. It ends up sucking both ways; for the masses and for the fringe. But they have to realize that they already exclude a large portion of the gaming market who will not play a game that does not offer a choice.
Well, I think what is happening with the MO player base wanting only 1st person is that they are actually wanting the MO devs to stick to their guns about their original design, especially because it's so novel.
Where I think people who are asking for 3rd person (not including the few who just hate 1st and won't be playing because of that) is that the decision to move it solely into first person sets up very unique game play elements.
As you already know, playing a game in 1st person is completely different from 3rd person.
It can be argued that they are like night and day. Though people (of course) have the right to their own preferences and (of course) the right to ask for 3rd person, the decision to remain in first person means that the MO devs can capitalize that point of view in their game design.
If you then just add 3rd person it completely changes the game and might also mitigate many of the design decisions.
There is an intimacy that comes from 1st person that would be removed by adding 3rd person.
Though this is not a perfect analogy I would add that it is the difference between the rock versions of songs and their unplugged versions (am I showing my age?).
Some would say they are both good but the sense of the songs is completely changed. Sometimes it works very well and sometimes not.
What the MO devs are doing is saying that they have a vision of how the game is to be experienced and part of that vision is that the game needs to be experienced in the first person.
Ok... got to go.. shuttle is waiting!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've been waiting years for a first person only MMO. If I could make one myself, this would be pretty much what I would have made. Third person is silly and removes yourself from the immersion. It would allow rogue style classes to use skill instead of invisibility to perform backstabs. It would allow you to aim to cast spells, to swing your sword and block with your shield in a more realistic way. Blocking with your shield should hinder your sight. It makes for a much more tactical fight.
Before people start in with the "Realism? There are spells and dragons, blah blah blah, there is nothing real about it!".. those people miss the whole point. The point is to put yourself into a world where those things are real. If I _was_ in a world where there were spells and dragons, etc.. I wouldn't be watching from up above my own head. I want it to seem as if I was really there, not just playing a game. It's a deeper experience.
No, I'm not a RP'er, or a carebear... I'm only in the games for the PvP. But I still prefer some realism. Oblivion and Fallout 3 were fantastic examples of a great first person game. Oblivison being the fantasy based one is what I would love to see in a MMO. I know you could go into third person in Oblivion, but that is a single player game. In an MMO, there needs to be balance. Having a third person view would force everyone to use it do to it's obvious advantages, make rogues have to go invisible to land backstabs, etc.. etc... Also, in third person views, the better your machine was, the farther away you could zoom out and still not have any lag. People with better machines had more of an advantage. I'm sure that will still be true in any MMO, even first person MMO's, but to a lesser degree.
Now, all that being said, there are still concerns. If you could walk through people, that would be bad. A first person MMO needs to have clipping on player characters. You should not be able to walk through people. This can lead to people blocking doorways, npcs, etc.. That issue would have to be looked at. If you could just walk through people, it would make fights unrealistic and exploitable.
People who are against this idea need to give it a try. I know you love your gears of war or whatever game makes you like that viewstyle, but trust me when I say this creates a deeper experience and it will grow on most of you and you will end up prefering it, if it is executed correctly.
You guys who says there must be TPV dont understand anyhing so please gtfo and play you little dressing game were you can see how awesome you think you look.
Probably you should connect your brain before posting, my lil 10 year-old kid.
lol They don't have to get over it, they just won't play it. That's money lost which means its incredibly stupid on the part of Star Vault. Personally, I love 1st person, and am finally glad to have an mmorpg where i can play 1st person AND see my weapons, hands, etc. But i can't really understand why people can't have a choice. It's not like people asking for a PvE server on a PvP-centric game, its a client-side feature that is a cakewalk to turn on and yields no gameplay advantage in PvP.
Forcing 1st person only = money lost, reduction in overall player base may affect gameplay (empty worlds suck) Giving a choice = money gained, no gameplay impact
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Me saying TPV is unrealistic /= me saying FPV is realistic
Of course you can't simulate peripheral vision on a single flat monitor screen. I don't think anybody is trying to argue that, and whether or not you can turn your character's head independent of his body is up to the devs.
Now back to TPV. Can you realistically have clairvoyance to see around corners and directly behind objects when you're 10+ feet away and not even facing them?
I will only say this because you pulled the sense of hearing card. Assuming plate is the only armor available in MO = fail. I hope you can see pulling the senses card in return to me (barely) pulling the realism card doesn't help your argument at all.
lol They don't have to get over it, they just won't play it. That's money lost which means its incredibly stupid on the part of Star Vault. Personally, I love 1st person, and am finally glad to have an mmorpg where i can play 1st person AND see my weapons, hands, etc. But i can't really understand why people can't have a choice. It's not like people asking for a PvE server on a PvP-centric game, its a client-side feature that is a cakewalk to turn on and yields no gameplay advantage in PvP.
Forcing 1st person only = money lost, reduction in overall player base may affect gameplay (empty worlds suck) Giving a choice = money gained, no gameplay impact
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Me saying TPV is unrealistic /= me saying FPV is realistic
Of course you can't simulate peripheral vision on a single flat monitor screen. I don't think anybody is trying to argue that, and whether or not you can turn your character's head independent of his body is up to the devs.
Now back to TPV. Can you realistically have clairvoyance to see around corners and directly behind objects when you're 10+ feet away and not even facing them?
I will only say this because you pulled the sense of hearing card. Assuming plate is the only armor available in MO = fail. I hope you can see pulling the senses card in return to me (barely) pulling the realism card doesn't help your argument at all.
We could literally do this all day. The fact is that neither system is realistic. However, while tpv does give you an unnatural ability to see around corners, it also does give you the ability to see about your person in way closer to reality. Yes, FPV does remove that ability for claravoiant corner peeking, it also does cramp your vision. Pro's and Con's.
Now, as far as sound goes, just because you aren't wearing metal armor, doesn't amke you whisper quiet. the russle of grass is enough to get our attention if it is out of place. So far, the only weas games have tried to really simulate our realistic situational awareness granted us by all of our senses is with some kind of short-range radar (noth te ones that magically show you were everyone is on a map for miles).
Point is, the differences do not seem to be enough that it should be a sticking point. In games, you pick your battles. THis one will mean less players. Less players in a PvP-based mmorpg is not a good thing. It means less cash, and makes hte game more likely to fail, finantially. This format of PvP-based mmorpgs realy can't afford any more failures (sorry but so far darkfall isn't a success, and if they don't get their shit together, its certain to fail).
So to me, as a game artist, it is obsurd for a developer to be willing to lose cash over something like this....its impact on gameplay is so small as to be a joke. Its not like they want no PvP, or no Loot...they just want a choice as to how they see the world.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
You call yourself a game artist, but the only thing you can wrap your mind around is monetary gain and loss. You don't seem to understand the concepts of "art" and "integrity", and how you should not compromise either only to appeal to a wider audience.
If they wanted to wanted to make an MMO that would appeal to the "masses", they would not have
1 - Sandbox type gameplay
2 - Full looting
3 - A focus on freeform PvP
This game, if the history of MMO's is to be believed, does not stand a chance to become "the next big thing". What it is aiming for is to become a really good product for a specific market of players, like UO and EVE.
Clearly, people who enjoy games for what they are will try out the 1st person view and see if it works for them or not. I personally do not understand how a "gamer" can go and condemn a game because it has a different type of view. Especially since the first person view is a true and tested concept in a ton of previous games.
I've personally been waiting for a first person view MMO ever since Planetside. It offers a type of immersion and personal experience that you simply can not get from a third "overhead" view.
You call yourself a game artist, but the only thing you can wrap your mind around is monetary gain and loss. You don't seem to understand the concepts of "art" and "integrity", and how you should not compromise either only to appeal to a wider audience.
Clearly from a person who is not putting their personal repuration and company on te line. It's easy for gamers to wax shit about integrity, blah blah blah....they pay 50 bucks and expect the world or they whine, piss and moan
I think about gain or loss, because if your game flops, that rep goes with you. No one wants to make a game that blows. Worse still, is a game that doesn't, or shouldn't, blow...but because of stubborn desicions like this one, teh alienate a group of gamers for something that SHOULDN"T be that major of an issue.
If people were whining about there being open PvP in the game...THAT is a sticking point, as its a major feature of the game. by comparison, letting people see the game world the way they want to seems totally trivial.
For example:
Lineage II has a point and click control setup like UO. But its a true 3D world. So, navigating into closed buildings gets awkard. So I wanted to alter the control setup to allow me to use WASD. Its just what I am used to...but the game would not allow be to change my control setup....So I don't play it. Now does that seem like a silly thing to lose a player over?
BTW, I am a lead artist, which is why i can see beyond the artistic look of th art. If I want my company to be profitable and keep making games, I have to be.
Cheers, Mate.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I'm sorry, but you keep saying things like "its impact on gameplay is so small as to be a joke." when talking about the view in a game. This makes me question just if you've ever even played a first person game. The difference is huge, both in aesthetics, general feel and gameplay mechanics. If you think it is a good thing or not is entirely subjective, but you can't come in here and say that it is a poor design decision since it is, like I said before, such a tried and true design.
I also don't think you can compare the view of a game to the wonky control scheme of another game. They are not even in the same category of problems. One actually hinders gameplay (controls), the other simply gives you another perspective on the gameplay experience (first person view).
While it is probably true that some very conservative people will be "alienated" by this design decision, I'm sure just as many will be attracted to it.
There is a reason why the first person genre is incredibly popular in the first place.
Comments
It is very naive of them not to implement a way where players can choose either 1st or 3rd person view. Look at it this way, if World of Warcraft was 1st person mode only how many players do you think the game would have today ? If they want more players to try their game then they should make it a choice between 1st or 3rd person view.
I'm told Ginger tablets provide relief for many folks. (not all).
If those don't work, looks like you'll be skipping MO at this point in time.
Unfortunely, that's probably me unless they change something regarding that (never say never when money is involved, hehe) 1st person only view.
I also hate the taste of ginger.. so bitter and nasty. You'd think something so sweet sounding would taste better. Bleh..
"TO MICHAEL!"
You guys who says there must be TPV dont understand anyhing so please gtfo and play you little dressing game were you can see how awesome you think you look.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Take a moment and think of all the game mechanics that you get to impliment into a game just based on the FPV. Do you think Halflife 2 would have been anywhere as near as immersive in 3rd person view?
In a 3rd person game, your character is blinded... and gets a -2 to hit (a debuff or CC)
In a 1st person game, YOU are blinded and cant see crap because your screen is white.
Come back when you're ready to think outside of the WoW box.
This is sort of a ridiculous discussion.
There are plenty of games that don't have a 3rd person view. Even games like Morrowind and Oblivion felt a bit better in First person view.
doom and half life are both in first person.
Dark Messiah is first person
quake is first person
There are game advantages and even immersion advantages to making it 1st person. Essentially the devs are making a sort of fantasy fps mmo.
Players are constantly saying they want different but when someone comes and does something different they don't like it.
I do feel for the people who get dizzy at 1st person but I also assume that they don't play other first person games as well.
I do understand the desire for 3rd person as there is something very visceral in seeing your character actually fight. But in this case, the game puts you more into the driver's seat as opposed to an active spectator. It's a very conscious design choice and one that had very perceptible game play ramifications.
And it looks like it's in good condition for a game approaching beta. I think we may have a contender here (though we won't know if it's a winner until we play it).
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nice!
Then MO will the first time i play a first person game. Never donr that before. I hope it wil be fun.
Good post.
btw Dark Messiah is probably one of the best games i have ever played, the game didnt get enough credit, beat it like 5 times over and the multplayer is ALOT of fun!
Also, i love your avatar
http://acominos.evony.com <- if your bored at work
Not putting 3d person view in the game is like cutting more than half of the MMO market, me included. When I want to play 1st person I play CS, CSS, R6, not a MMOG. Hope they will come back on their decision and open this sandbox game to us.
there are two sides to every coin.
3rd person = you can see 360 around you. so you cant be surrounded as easy (does happen but its harder not to see it coming)
1st person = you dont see the guy beside/behind you until you turn.
though i like 1st person having been an avid FPSer for many years. you get a nack for doing the 360 spin run as you walk around.
plus it almost more entertaining to actually see your hand/weapon do the final hit then watching your toon swing its weapon around.
i recall an old BF42 mod that allowed you to see your toon in 3rd person.. but you lost your crosshairs and other important things....man was it confusing if you clicked the wrong button....
but ya only time/testing will show if 1st person is good for MO or mmos ingeneral. or if its better left to FPS style games
Probably you should connect your brain before posting, my lil 10 year-old kid.
True, but how many MMOs don't have a 3rd person view at all? How many MMOs are 1st person only? That's why this is a novel discussion. It's not like every other game released comes in only 1st person. I think that's why this topic is pretty relevant.
"TO MICHAEL!"
They should never compromise the integrity of a project just to try and satisfy the needs of the masses. MO has been designed from the ground up as a first person experience. It's naive to think that it is going to change.
If you dismiss a game because of a first person view, then simply do not play it. We have seen in other games that the market for first person games is immense. It is simply an untapped resource in MMO gaming, because so many veterans are used to a 3rd person view.
I personally welcome something fresh, and new.
True, but how many MMOs don't have a 3rd person view at all? How many MMOs are 1st person only? That's why this is a novel discussion. It's not like every other game released comes in only 1st person. I think that's why this topic is pretty relevant.
My thought is that just because mmo's have traditionally had 3rd person view doesn't make it so that they have to always have 3rd person view.
Sure, the discussion is novel but I find the resistance to it somewhat surprising.
Almost (but not quite) like taking early games with isometric view then changing them to have full 3d and then having people become upset because games "should" be in isometric view.
Perhaps a better clarification is that I find the "resistance to 1st person view to be surprising and silly" to my thinking.
I don't know, maybe I'm alone here, but I just don't freak out about stuff like this. When I get a game, any game, I see what the rules are, how it's set up and then just go with it.
I didn't start playing Dark Messiah only to think "god, it really should be in 3rd person" or Doom or Quake or Half-Life, etc...
And if the game plays a lot like a fps then doesn't it make sense that 1st person view would work very well? With all the cries that games are "wow clones" and that devs aren't doing anything different, we now have something different for all of us to work with. Not only that but it gives us a very different game play experience and something that we haven't had in an mmo ... well ... to my knowledge, ever.
The idea being that regardless of 1st person or 3rd person view, if it's done well then the game play experience will be rewarding.
To that end, if mmo's were always in 1st person and suddenly we had 3rd person introduced, would we then get people saying "omg, it's 3rd person I'm so not playing it, they've lost my 15 bucks!"
So this is where I feel it's a bit silly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Well, there's realism and there's "realism".
So sure, it does give you a tunnel vision by its very nature. I think if they were to warp the sides so that it seemed like you had a peripheral vision, it could cause more problems then it would solve. what it does allow for is a limited view which, regardless of our peripheral vision, is "limited". I can't see to the back of me.
This really allows for a player be attacked when they are not paying attention as opposed to a bird's eye view that allows for a limited 360 view point.
It allows for players to only make decisions based upon what is in front of you. And as I said above, it puts you more into the action as opposed to an active spectator.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Seems kind of rediculous to me to hate a game because they force first person, many games force you into a certain veiw type so why should an MMO doing it be any different?
If you dont like it dont play it, Im sure you'll find a game that suits you.
I don't think people are all saying that Mortal Online or any other MMO should only be available as a 3rd person viewer. I see few if any, arguing that point. You are right that just because it was always that way with MMOs, that it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I'd be the first to argue for innovational thinking outside the traditional box. Diversity makes for more ideas to come from those type of products.
But what you have definitely seen is an interest in the Mortal Online MMO from announcement. People know the IP, and loved the game so they would really like to give it a try. The original MO games weren't even in 1st or 3rd person view at all, so that shows just how far its come. All people are really asking for, not demanding, is a rethink on the 1st person view "only" aspect to the game. People don't like fewer choices for their entertainment dollar, they want more. By saying stiffly that only 1st person is available leaves those who might have considered trying it in a much more restricted space. Now people will always vote with their wallet as a rule. Very few buy crap they don't actually want to buy. So if the MO people who make the game are intractable and say "1st person view only", they have to understand there will be some initial griping, but ultimately there are people who will simply not play it just like there are people who will simply not play a full loot PvP game.
If they understand that and intend to stick to their guns, I salute them because apparently, the MO base WANT that as only and its non-negotiable. I would hate for any company, no matter the product to water it down so they can get mass appeal. It ends up sucking both ways; for the masses and for the fringe. But they have to realize that they already exclude a large portion of the gaming market who will not play a game that does not offer a choice.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I don't think people are all saying that Mortal Online or any other MMO should only be available as a 3rd person viewer. I see few if any, arguing that point. You are right that just because it was always that way with MMOs, that it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I'd be the first to argue for innovational thinking outside the traditional box. Diversity makes for more ideas to come from those type of products.
But what you have definitely seen is an interest in the Mortal Online MMO from announcement. People know the IP, and loved the game so they would really like to give it a try. The original MO games weren't even in 1st or 3rd person view at all, so that shows just how far its come. All people are really asking for, not demanding, is a rethink on the 1st person view "only" aspect to the game. People don't like fewer choices for their entertainment dollar, they want more. By saying stiffly that only 1st person is available leaves those who might have considered trying it in a much more restricted space. Now people will always vote with their wallet as a rule. Very few buy crap they don't actually want to buy. So if the MO people who make the game are intractable and say "1st person view only", they have to understand there will be some initial griping, but ultimately there are people who will simply not play it just like there are people who will simply not play a full loot PvP game.
If they understand that and intend to stick to their guns, I salute them because apparently, the MO base WANT that as only and its non-negotiable. I would hate for any company, no matter the product to water it down so they can get mass appeal. It ends up sucking both ways; for the masses and for the fringe. But they have to realize that they already exclude a large portion of the gaming market who will not play a game that does not offer a choice.
Well, I think what is happening with the MO player base wanting only 1st person is that they are actually wanting the MO devs to stick to their guns about their original design, especially because it's so novel.
Where I think people who are asking for 3rd person (not including the few who just hate 1st and won't be playing because of that) is that the decision to move it solely into first person sets up very unique game play elements.
As you already know, playing a game in 1st person is completely different from 3rd person.
It can be argued that they are like night and day. Though people (of course) have the right to their own preferences and (of course) the right to ask for 3rd person, the decision to remain in first person means that the MO devs can capitalize that point of view in their game design.
If you then just add 3rd person it completely changes the game and might also mitigate many of the design decisions.
There is an intimacy that comes from 1st person that would be removed by adding 3rd person.
Though this is not a perfect analogy I would add that it is the difference between the rock versions of songs and their unplugged versions (am I showing my age?).
Some would say they are both good but the sense of the songs is completely changed. Sometimes it works very well and sometimes not.
What the MO devs are doing is saying that they have a vision of how the game is to be experienced and part of that vision is that the game needs to be experienced in the first person.
Ok... got to go.. shuttle is waiting!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've been waiting years for a first person only MMO. If I could make one myself, this would be pretty much what I would have made. Third person is silly and removes yourself from the immersion. It would allow rogue style classes to use skill instead of invisibility to perform backstabs. It would allow you to aim to cast spells, to swing your sword and block with your shield in a more realistic way. Blocking with your shield should hinder your sight. It makes for a much more tactical fight.
Before people start in with the "Realism? There are spells and dragons, blah blah blah, there is nothing real about it!".. those people miss the whole point. The point is to put yourself into a world where those things are real. If I _was_ in a world where there were spells and dragons, etc.. I wouldn't be watching from up above my own head. I want it to seem as if I was really there, not just playing a game. It's a deeper experience.
No, I'm not a RP'er, or a carebear... I'm only in the games for the PvP. But I still prefer some realism. Oblivion and Fallout 3 were fantastic examples of a great first person game. Oblivison being the fantasy based one is what I would love to see in a MMO. I know you could go into third person in Oblivion, but that is a single player game. In an MMO, there needs to be balance. Having a third person view would force everyone to use it do to it's obvious advantages, make rogues have to go invisible to land backstabs, etc.. etc... Also, in third person views, the better your machine was, the farther away you could zoom out and still not have any lag. People with better machines had more of an advantage. I'm sure that will still be true in any MMO, even first person MMO's, but to a lesser degree.
Now, all that being said, there are still concerns. If you could walk through people, that would be bad. A first person MMO needs to have clipping on player characters. You should not be able to walk through people. This can lead to people blocking doorways, npcs, etc.. That issue would have to be looked at. If you could just walk through people, it would make fights unrealistic and exploitable.
People who are against this idea need to give it a try. I know you love your gears of war or whatever game makes you like that viewstyle, but trust me when I say this creates a deeper experience and it will grow on most of you and you will end up prefering it, if it is executed correctly.
Probably you should connect your brain before posting, my lil 10 year-old kid.
Atleast i have a brain.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Me saying TPV is unrealistic /= me saying FPV is realistic
Of course you can't simulate peripheral vision on a single flat monitor screen. I don't think anybody is trying to argue that, and whether or not you can turn your character's head independent of his body is up to the devs.
Now back to TPV. Can you realistically have clairvoyance to see around corners and directly behind objects when you're 10+ feet away and not even facing them?
I will only say this because you pulled the sense of hearing card. Assuming plate is the only armor available in MO = fail. I hope you can see pulling the senses card in return to me (barely) pulling the realism card doesn't help your argument at all.
Ahahahahaha! This is hilarious!
First person view: I sneak up on preoccupied miner and hack away at his backside, guaranteed kill.
Third person view: I sneak up on pre...- OH SHIT HE HAD HIS BACK TURNED TO ME BUT STILL SAW ME BEFORE MY CHARGED SWING LET FLY AND TOTALLY PWN'D MY FACE NOW I'M AT HALF HEALTH!
I know my descriptions are somewhat...crude, but I hope you can understand that TPV DOES give you an increased, and quite unrealistic, situational awareness.
I will only say this since you threw the realism flag. FPV completely kills any and all periferal vision, giving you a very unrealistic tunnel vision.
Now, as far as people being able to look all around in 3rd person, my head is actually able to look in a direction other than straight forward. So take that and add my periferal vision, and i can quite easily see someone who is behind me, especially since my natural sense of hearing let me hear the clank of your armor a mile away.
I hope you can see that pullin the realism card doesn't help your arguement, at all.
Me saying TPV is unrealistic /= me saying FPV is realistic
Of course you can't simulate peripheral vision on a single flat monitor screen. I don't think anybody is trying to argue that, and whether or not you can turn your character's head independent of his body is up to the devs.
Now back to TPV. Can you realistically have clairvoyance to see around corners and directly behind objects when you're 10+ feet away and not even facing them?
I will only say this because you pulled the sense of hearing card. Assuming plate is the only armor available in MO = fail. I hope you can see pulling the senses card in return to me (barely) pulling the realism card doesn't help your argument at all.
We could literally do this all day. The fact is that neither system is realistic. However, while tpv does give you an unnatural ability to see around corners, it also does give you the ability to see about your person in way closer to reality. Yes, FPV does remove that ability for claravoiant corner peeking, it also does cramp your vision. Pro's and Con's.
Now, as far as sound goes, just because you aren't wearing metal armor, doesn't amke you whisper quiet. the russle of grass is enough to get our attention if it is out of place. So far, the only weas games have tried to really simulate our realistic situational awareness granted us by all of our senses is with some kind of short-range radar (noth te ones that magically show you were everyone is on a map for miles).
Point is, the differences do not seem to be enough that it should be a sticking point. In games, you pick your battles. THis one will mean less players. Less players in a PvP-based mmorpg is not a good thing. It means less cash, and makes hte game more likely to fail, finantially. This format of PvP-based mmorpgs realy can't afford any more failures (sorry but so far darkfall isn't a success, and if they don't get their shit together, its certain to fail).
So to me, as a game artist, it is obsurd for a developer to be willing to lose cash over something like this....its impact on gameplay is so small as to be a joke. Its not like they want no PvP, or no Loot...they just want a choice as to how they see the world.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
You call yourself a game artist, but the only thing you can wrap your mind around is monetary gain and loss. You don't seem to understand the concepts of "art" and "integrity", and how you should not compromise either only to appeal to a wider audience.
If they wanted to wanted to make an MMO that would appeal to the "masses", they would not have
1 - Sandbox type gameplay
2 - Full looting
3 - A focus on freeform PvP
This game, if the history of MMO's is to be believed, does not stand a chance to become "the next big thing". What it is aiming for is to become a really good product for a specific market of players, like UO and EVE.
Clearly, people who enjoy games for what they are will try out the 1st person view and see if it works for them or not. I personally do not understand how a "gamer" can go and condemn a game because it has a different type of view. Especially since the first person view is a true and tested concept in a ton of previous games.
I've personally been waiting for a first person view MMO ever since Planetside. It offers a type of immersion and personal experience that you simply can not get from a third "overhead" view.
My two cents.
Clearly from a person who is not putting their personal repuration and company on te line. It's easy for gamers to wax shit about integrity, blah blah blah....they pay 50 bucks and expect the world or they whine, piss and moan
I think about gain or loss, because if your game flops, that rep goes with you. No one wants to make a game that blows. Worse still, is a game that doesn't, or shouldn't, blow...but because of stubborn desicions like this one, teh alienate a group of gamers for something that SHOULDN"T be that major of an issue.
If people were whining about there being open PvP in the game...THAT is a sticking point, as its a major feature of the game. by comparison, letting people see the game world the way they want to seems totally trivial.
For example:
Lineage II has a point and click control setup like UO. But its a true 3D world. So, navigating into closed buildings gets awkard. So I wanted to alter the control setup to allow me to use WASD. Its just what I am used to...but the game would not allow be to change my control setup....So I don't play it. Now does that seem like a silly thing to lose a player over?
BTW, I am a lead artist, which is why i can see beyond the artistic look of th art. If I want my company to be profitable and keep making games, I have to be.
Cheers, Mate.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I'm sorry, but you keep saying things like "its impact on gameplay is so small as to be a joke." when talking about the view in a game. This makes me question just if you've ever even played a first person game. The difference is huge, both in aesthetics, general feel and gameplay mechanics. If you think it is a good thing or not is entirely subjective, but you can't come in here and say that it is a poor design decision since it is, like I said before, such a tried and true design.
I also don't think you can compare the view of a game to the wonky control scheme of another game. They are not even in the same category of problems. One actually hinders gameplay (controls), the other simply gives you another perspective on the gameplay experience (first person view).
While it is probably true that some very conservative people will be "alienated" by this design decision, I'm sure just as many will be attracted to it.
There is a reason why the first person genre is incredibly popular in the first place.