Personally, I am rather fond of the "Everyone does it so it’s the corporate norm" excuse. I fully intend to write the various forms of government that oversee such infractions and ploys to tell them their services are not needed. The public has clearly spoken from underneath their covers where they hide from moral responsibility and the basic role of business watchdogs. They accept lies, misdeeds and swindling as part of the norm and seem willing to forgo any recourse should it happen to them.
Also, I intend to call together the advertising industry, to which I am a part of, and inform them of this new carte blanche attitude. The majority of us who try to play it safe and occasionally partake in minor infractions will have some adjusting to do but figure since everyone is not only doing it but that it is now perfectly acceptable - we will adjust accordingly.
Thank you, Arch! Had you not brought this up and allowed the masses to share their indifference - I would not have known.
Wow, this thread delivers. Not only does it show a history of corruption at SONY (Including SOE), it also shows the weak arguments of the SONY/SOE apologists. "Everybody does it" and attack the accuser.
Wow, this thread delivers. Not only does it show a history of corruption at SONY (Including SOE), it also shows the weak arguments of the SONY/SOE apologists. "Everybody does it" and attack the accuser. Good work, Arc.
Thx Fisher. It's like I've said for a while, gamers form a community and I want to be a good neighbour. I think part of that is calling a spade a spade and letting people know the track record of the service providers we may want to do business with.
Some of the posts have cast aspersions on my motivations for creating this thread. In the hope of putting speculation to rest, I'm going to post for you what sparked this:
"SOE and SONY are an ethical company. I have never seen any unethical behavior. SOE changes some games without consulting all it's players, so what. They added item malls to some games after saying they weren't, so what. They ruined SWG with NGE and paid a huge price for it, so what. How is any of that unethical? I have been a customer of SONY for over 3 decades. While I was unhappy with SWG-nge I have never seen any unethical behavior as so many whiney SOE "hater" love to claim when they attack anything SOE does."
This is from another forum, and I've highlighted for you the claims I'm responding to, as well as my reasoning for putting the response in this particular forum (see above font changes). The suggestion seems to be that Sony and SOE have done no wrong and that the only people who criticize them are whiny SWG vets that don't have any justifiable concerns.
Well, now y'all know my answer to that lol
P.S. If anyone wants to come to the table with claims of ethical purity for SOE and Sony, and with criticism of understandably disgruntled customers, I think you should do your homework first.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Erm, Sony as a corporation was fined six digits for some of this stuff weren't they? Suggests organizational responsiblity doesn't it? If the FTC takes action and fine's a company for breaking the law, is that really hogwash? I don't think so. We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Also, if you want to simply compare SOE's history with Blizzard's regarding consumer complaints and ethical controversy, that works for me. Did Blizz claim quests were working as intended when contacts were missing? Did Blizz say that one of their game versions was here to stay and then replace it a few months later? Did Blizz sell people an expansion and advertise features for it, and then the day after announce that these features were scheduled for deletion? Are Blizzard TCG tournaments banned in Nevada because they charge entry fees and offer prizes? Did Blizz completey revamp their live game twice despite consumer protests? Have Bizz devs (current or former) ever publicly posted on their blogs telling players to eat dick? lol I still can't believe that actually happened with Rubenfield. So, ok if Sony is too broad an umbrella, let's narrow it down and compare MMO companies, their practices and their results. P.S. If anyone wonders who the hardcore defenders of SOE are on these boards, you may want to make a list
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Wow, this thread delivers. Not only does it show a history of corruption at SONY (Including SOE), it also shows the weak arguments of the SONY/SOE apologists. "Everybody does it" and attack the accuser. Good work, Arc.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Erm, Sony as a corporation was fined six digits for some of this stuff weren't they? Suggests organizational responsiblity doesn't it? If the FTC takes action and fine's a company for breaking the law, is that really hogwash? I don't think so. We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Also, if you want to simply compare SOE's history with Blizzard's regarding consumer complaints and ethical controversy, that works for me. Did Blizz claim quests were working as intended when contacts were missing? Did Blizz say that one of their game versions was here to stay and then replace it a few months later? Did Blizz sell people an expansion and advertise features for it, and then the day after announce that these features were scheduled for deletion? Are Blizzard TCG tournaments banned in Nevada because they charge entry fees and offer prizes? Did Blizz completey revamp their live game twice despite consumer protests? Have Bizz devs (current or former) ever publicly posted on their blogs telling players to eat dick? lol I still can't believe that actually happened with Rubenfield. So, ok if Sony is too broad an umbrella, let's narrow it down and compare MMO companies, their practices and their results. P.S. If anyone wonders who the hardcore defenders of SOE are on these boards, you may want to make a list
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Erm, Sony as a corporation was fined six digits for some of this stuff weren't they? Suggests organizational responsiblity doesn't it? If the FTC takes action and fine's a company for breaking the law, is that really hogwash? I don't think so. We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Also, if you want to simply compare SOE's history with Blizzard's regarding consumer complaints and ethical controversy, that works for me. Did Blizz claim quests were working as intended when contacts were missing? Did Blizz say that one of their game versions was here to stay and then replace it a few months later? Did Blizz sell people an expansion and advertise features for it, and then the day after announce that these features were scheduled for deletion? Are Blizzard TCG tournaments banned in Nevada because they charge entry fees and offer prizes? Did Blizz completey revamp their live game twice despite consumer protests? Have Bizz devs (current or former) ever publicly posted on their blogs telling players to eat dick? lol I still can't believe that actually happened with Rubenfield. So, ok if Sony is too broad an umbrella, let's narrow it down and compare MMO companies, their practices and their results. P.S. If anyone wonders who the hardcore defenders of SOE are on these boards, you may want to make a list
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
lessee rootkits was an attempt to prevent music from being copied and resold or handed out free to others. It was an attempt to protect the recording artists copyrights (bunch of people got pissed off bad sony). Child rights violations and paying off a witness belongs in national enquirer if it really did happen is debatable and just "hot gossip". Not sure about "pretending to be something they are not for movies" but anyhow yeah some of it is obviously fiction other is just the consumer industry not liking certain methods adopted to prevent what basically was considered theft and widespread. It was however something for people to grab hold of as a competitor and use to increase their sales or in your case continue to hate them some more.
Oddly enough none of this has to do with sony online entertainment these are other companies under the sony umbrella. As an aside I dont particularly like sony but they make some good TV sets and some games I like. They are a major power in certain industries if you can manage to avoid their parts (probably some in your computer) and every thing else with a sony name on it I would be amazed. Do I like everything they do? No but I dont beat them over the head with it I take note and dont buy their cd's, but that is about all I can do and even then I can't totally avoid it in the end.
A guy got mad at me because at one point I wore rebooks. I wore them for years and years as I have knee problems and this brand was recommended by an orthopedics specialist. Should I have caused myself great pain because of their involvment with south africa?
My internet company which has a basic monopoly on my cable based broad band internet (rogers the guys with the ipod problems awhile back).
Bottom line archangel there is a lot of strange things happening in the world .Should I stop watching TV,using the internet or doing anything online because my alternatives are no better? Should I take more anti-inflamatories and wear a brand which causes me great pain?
Feel free to speak up about them but also realize that apart from being mildly annoyed over rootkits I still have my sony TV set and I'm pretty sure the dvd rom inside my computer is sony's and yes I use some of their software games, I still use rogers's cable and if I had not found a brand better then rebook in more recent times (Avia) I would still be wearing Reebok running shoes.
Do I excuse it? No but a lot of it is just noise created by the comptetition trying to boost their sales.
I would say I have very good perspective and dont live in a blind rage over things that are half media hype created by other corporations to try to fool consumers into switching brands.
I think sony can do plenty wrong and HAS done plenty wrong, but I know of no company out there that has done nothing wrong hence when I see a product I want that has a sony name on it I will buy it as in some cases it offers the best quality in whatever industry its a part of. They dominate the blue ray market and blue ray is on the rise. If it eventually becomes and industry norm I won't be stopping to watch movies because of the fact that sony owns the rights to blue ray.
Personally when I see you hating on one company on mmorpg.com and not others I consider its you that has lost perspective and not the other way round.
edit sorry for chopped up sentances. I dont have time to fix it and have to get back to work. This note was inserted for those with sensitive eyes who can't recognize a post written in a hurry on a coffee break :O
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Erm, Sony as a corporation was fined six digits for some of this stuff weren't they? Suggests organizational responsiblity doesn't it? If the FTC takes action and fine's a company for breaking the law, is that really hogwash? I don't think so. We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Also, if you want to simply compare SOE's history with Blizzard's regarding consumer complaints and ethical controversy, that works for me. Did Blizz claim quests were working as intended when contacts were missing? Did Blizz say that one of their game versions was here to stay and then replace it a few months later? Did Blizz sell people an expansion and advertise features for it, and then the day after announce that these features were scheduled for deletion? Are Blizzard TCG tournaments banned in Nevada because they charge entry fees and offer prizes? Did Blizz completey revamp their live game twice despite consumer protests? Have Bizz devs (current or former) ever publicly posted on their blogs telling players to eat dick? lol I still can't believe that actually happened with Rubenfield. So, ok if Sony is too broad an umbrella, let's narrow it down and compare MMO companies, their practices and their results. P.S. If anyone wonders who the hardcore defenders of SOE are on these boards, you may want to make a list
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
lessee rootkits was an attempt to prevent music from being copied and resold or handed out free to others. It was an attempt to protect the recording artists copyrights (bunch of people got pissed off bad sony). Child rights violations and paying off a witness belongs in national enquirer if it really did happen is debatable and just "hot gossip". Not sure about "pretending to be something they are not for movies" but anyhow yeah some of it is obviously fiction other is just the consumer industry not liking certain methods adopted to prevent what basically was considered theft and widespread. It was however something for people to grab hold of as a competitor and use to increase their sales or in your case continue to hate them some more.
Oddly enough none of this has to do with sony online entertainment these are other companies under the sony umbrella. As an aside I dont particularly like sony but they make some good TV sets and some games I like. They are a major power in certain industries if you can manage to avoid their parts (probably some in your computer) and every thing else with a sony name on it I would be amazed. Do I like everything they do? No but I dont beat them over the head with it I take note and dont buy their cd's, but that is about all I can do and even then I can't totally avoid it in the end.
A guy got mad at me because at one point I wore rebooks. I wore them for years and years as I have knee problems and this brand was recommended by an orthopedics specialist. Should I have caused myself great pain because of their involvment with south africa?
My internet company which has a basic monopoly on my cable based broad band internet (rogers the guys with the ipod problems awhile back).
Bottom line archangel there is a lot of strange things happening in the world .Should I stop watching TV,using the internet or doing anything online because my alternatives are no better? Should I take more anti-inflamatories and wear a brand which causes me great pain?
Feel free to speak up about them but also realize that apart from being mildly annoyed over rootkits I still have my sony TV set and I'm pretty sure the dvd rom inside my computer is sony's and yes I use some of their software games, I still use rogers's cable and if I had not found a brand better then rebook in more recent times (Avia) I would still be wearing Reebok running shoes.
Do I excuse it? No but a lot of it is just noise created by the comptetition trying to boost their sales.
I would say I have very good perspective and dont live in a blind rage over things that are half media hype created by other corporations to try to fool consumers into switching brands.
I think sony can do plenty wrong and HAS done plenty wrong, but I know of no company out there that has done nothing wrong hence when I see a product I want that has a sony name on it I will buy it as in some cases it offers the best quality in whatever industry its a part of. They dominate the blue ray market and blue ray is on the rise. If it eventually becomes and industry norm I won't be stopping to watch movies because of the fact that sony owns the rights to blue ray.
Personally when I see you hating on one company on mmorpg.com and not others I consider its you that has lost perspective and not the other way round.
edit sorry for chopped up sentances. I dont have time to fix it and have to get back to work. This note was inserted for those with sensitive eyes who can't recognize a post written in a hurry on a coffee break :O
Yup. Everybody is doing it. It's SONY, not SOE. All irrelevant arguments.
This is a Star Wars Galaxies Veterans refuge. The only companies worth discussing here are SONY and LEC (maybe Bioware if we choose to compare SWTOR with SWG and so on).
The sad, shabby tactics of the SONY apologists are amusing to say the least. It certainly leads one to question their motives.
Now I am an apologist? Lets see on these forums I have been called: an idiot, an apologist, unethical, SOE employee, Viral marketer for SOE, and recently it was suggested I am Smedely himself. The difference between me and the "haters"is I am not obsessed with SOE. SOE means no more to me then Blizzard, Mythic, EA, Turbine, or any other game company. I post on many topics and many games but EQ2 is my favorite game. However, many here have quoted me out of context and suggested I am some sort of SOE zombie because in my many years and hundreds of post a very small amount have been in support of SOE games. I find it funny the only things people attack me for is anything to do with EQ2 or SOE. Nothing I have said about any other game or company ever raises an eyebrow. They seem to over look threads and post I have made against things SOE has done. They simply do not like that I am still a SOE customer. To ArchAngel3 do you own one single item made by SONY? If you do then your opinion on SOE/SONY means precisely "dick" (Men in Black reference)
The fact is this all began by me supporting and defending EQ2 as a good game. The SOE "hater" started attacking me and my unethical support of EQ2. I simply got tired of all the personnel attacks by the "haters" and I voiced this after threads I started to help people with EQ2 were hyjacked by "haters". I simply made a stance and have been attacked ever since when ever I post about EQ2 and the few times about SOE. Never any of my other posts. You can draw your own conclusions on why that is.
By the way for those that do not know I am the guy who posted the response that got ArchAngel3 so worked up that he needed to start this thread.
Now I am an apologist? Lets see on these forums I have been called: an idiot, an apologist, unethical, SOE employee, Viral marketer for SOE, and recently it was suggested I am Smedely himself. The difference between me and the "haters"is I am not obsessed with SOE. SOE means no more to me then Blizzard, Mythic, EA, Turbine, or any other game company. I post on many topics and many games but EQ2 is my favorite game. However, many here have quoted me out of context and suggested I am some sort of SOE zombie because in my many years and hundreds of post a very small amount have been in support of SOE games. I find it funny the only things people attack me for is anything to do with EQ2 or SOE. Nothing I have said about any other game or company ever raises an eyebrow. They seem to over look threads and post I have made against things SOE has done. They simply do not like that I am still a SOE customer. To ArchAngel3 do you own one single item made by SONY? If you do then your opinion on SOE/SONY means precisely "dick" (Men in Black reference) The fact is this all began by me supporting and defending EQ2 as a good game. The SOE "hater" started attacking me and my unethical support of EQ2. I simply got tired of all the personnel attacks by the "haters" and I voiced this after threads I started to help people with EQ2 were hyjacked by "haters". I simply made a stance and have been attacked ever since when ever I post about EQ2 and the few times about SOE. Never any of my other posts. You can draw your own conclusions on why that is. By the way for those that do not know I am the guy who posted the response that got ArchAngel3 so worked up that he needed to start this thread.
Hmm. I've said that EQ2 is a good game. Even well known SOE "haters" such as Wildcat have said the same thing. I've never been flamed for saying that.
It must be you, or perhaps it was the context in which you said it.
The only thing I get flamed for by the "haters" is the fact that I am not part of the boycott. I don't believe in boycotting, and never have. I play games I enjoy and that's that. I do not, however verbally defend SONY/SOE for any of their actions. When they lie cheat and defraud their customers, I say it's wrong.
That being said. I don't care if I get flamed for things I say -- I merely, as always point out that the person needs to flame others, and how that shows poor argumentation tactics.
Originally posted by ummax A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case.. Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Since something dumb once happened in a court of law once it justifies all the past and current actions of soe (sony) as a whole.
More of the same. Look someone/something else did this so it is ok mentality.
Originally posted by eccoton The fact is this all began by me supporting and defending EQ2 as a good game. The SOE "hater" started attacking me and my unethical support of EQ2. I simply got tired of all the personnel attacks by the "haters" and I voiced this after threads I started to help people with EQ2 were hyjacked by "haters". I simply made a stance and have been attacked ever since when ever I post about EQ2 and the few times about SOE. Never any of my other posts. You can draw your own conclusions on why that is. By the way for those that do not know I am the guy who posted the response that got ArchAngel3 so worked up that he needed to start this thread.
You certainly have no trouble labeling me a hater, troll and playing doctor phil and diagnosing me with mental defects in another thread, but here you are bellyaching about people doing that to you? I don't ever recall labeling you a troll, fanboi or saying you are mentally unstable, but you sure had no problem doing exactly what you are complaing about here do you? Please don't cry to hard about the treatment people give you when you are willing to sink right down to that same level of mudslinging. That just makes you a hypocrite.
You all to often confuse your enjoyment of eq2 as a good game with the operational practices of soe as a company. They are not the same thing and you enjoying a game does not diminish, justify or erase the manner in which the company conducts itself.
Hmm. I've said that EQ2 is a good game. Even well known SOE "haters" such as Wildcat have said the same thing. I've never been flamed for saying that. It must be you, or perhaps it was the context in which you said it. The only thing I get flamed for by the "haters" is the fact that I am not part of the boycott. I don't believe in boycotting, and never have. I play games I enjoy and that's that. I do not, however verbally defend SONY/SOE for any of their actions. When they lie cheat and defraud their customers, I say it's wrong. That being said. I don't care if I get flamed for things I say -- I merely, as always point out that the person needs to flame others, and how that shows poor argumentation tactics. Sticks and stones and all that.
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
Im also positive that SOE wont pull another NGE on current SWG. They simply lack the resources for that atm for one thing and as arrogant as their suits might be, they do realise that it was a bad move (eventhough they might not admit it publicly).
I pay for current game, not for the old mistake. If they change it in a way that I find gamebreaking, Ill voice my opinion, stop paying and move on.
The problem isn't entirely what soe did in the past. It is that they have not changed since those times.
Sure they may not employ another drastic change on the scale of the NGE, because it was such a complete disaster. However they still conduct themselves in a similar fashion to this day.
Look at the manner in which they implemented the station cash system. They simply patched it into the game without telling the players it was coming. They knew full well that this would cause some people to leave and they still went right ahead with it, because they do not listen to their players. They listen to their accountants and marketing teams which is the root cause of the NGE in the first place. The only difference is that soe has much much more experience in how to deal with upset players. Station cash mirrors the ethics and decision making that went into the handling of the nge step for step.
I can't say with any measurable level of confidence that soe wouldn't do another nge style change to one of their games if marketing told them it would generate more money. Nothing and I mean nothing lends any credible level of confidence that soe has changed their stance on how to treat their customers. They will simply do whatever they want to their games and the players be damned.
Hmm. I've said that EQ2 is a good game. Even well known SOE "haters" such as Wildcat have said the same thing. I've never been flamed for saying that. It must be you, or perhaps it was the context in which you said it. The only thing I get flamed for by the "haters" is the fact that I am not part of the boycott. I don't believe in boycotting, and never have. I play games I enjoy and that's that. I do not, however verbally defend SONY/SOE for any of their actions. When they lie cheat and defraud their customers, I say it's wrong. That being said. I don't care if I get flamed for things I say -- I merely, as always point out that the person needs to flame others, and how that shows poor argumentation tactics. Sticks and stones and all that.
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
I never said you were the "only one" who has gotten flamed or attacked for being ok with SOE, in fact,m in your post you didn't even say YOU got flamed for being ok with SOE -- you stated you got flamed for saying EQ2 was a good game. Which is it?
Now it definitely seems to be your manner of posting which is causing you problems, since YOu are shifting grounds right here and now.
Hmm. I've said that EQ2 is a good game. Even well known SOE "haters" such as Wildcat have said the same thing. I've never been flamed for saying that. It must be you, or perhaps it was the context in which you said it. The only thing I get flamed for by the "haters" is the fact that I am not part of the boycott. I don't believe in boycotting, and never have. I play games I enjoy and that's that. I do not, however verbally defend SONY/SOE for any of their actions. When they lie cheat and defraud their customers, I say it's wrong. That being said. I don't care if I get flamed for things I say -- I merely, as always point out that the person needs to flame others, and how that shows poor argumentation tactics. Sticks and stones and all that.
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
I never said you were the "only one" who has gotten flamed or attacked for being ok with SOE, in fact,m in your post you didn't even say YOU got flamed for being ok with SOE -- you stated you got flamed for saying EQ2 was a good game. Which is it?
Now it definitely seems to be your manner of posting which is causing you problems, since YOu are shifting grounds right here and now.
Just like I posted seconds before Ecco did in this post. He has trouble differentiating the enjoyment level of EQ2 with the operational policies and actions of soe as a business. He just doesn't see them as different aspects.
Im also positive that SOE wont pull another NGE on current SWG. They simply lack the resources for that atm for one thing and as arrogant as their suits might be, they do realise that it was a bad move (eventhough they might not admit it publicly).
I pay for current game, not for the old mistake. If they change it in a way that I find gamebreaking, Ill voice my opinion, stop paying and move on.
The problem isn't entirely what soe did in the past. It is that they have not changed since those times.
Sure they may not employ another drastic change on the scale of the NGE, because it was such a complete disaster. However they still conduct themselves in a similar fashion to this day.
Look at the manner in which they implemented the station cash system. They simply patched it into the game without telling the players it was coming. They knew full well that this would cause some people to leave and they still went right ahead with it, because they do not listen to their players. They listen to their accountants and marketing teams which is the root cause of the NGE in the first place. The only difference is that soe has much much more experience in how to deal with upset players. Station cash mirrors the ethics and decision making that went into the handling of the nge step for step.
I can't say with any measurable level of confidence that soe wouldn't do another nge style change to one of their games if marketing told them it would generate more money. Nothing and I mean nothing lends any credible level of confidence that soe has changed their stance on how to treat their customers. They will simply do whatever they want to their games and the players be damned.
Yup, it is not so much for what they did, but for the fact taht they have shown time and again that they have learned nothing from the NGE.
Originally posted by eccoton The fact is this all began by me supporting and defending EQ2 as a good game. The SOE "hater" started attacking me and my unethical support of EQ2. I simply got tired of all the personnel attacks by the "haters" and I voiced this after threads I started to help people with EQ2 were hyjacked by "haters". I simply made a stance and have been attacked ever since when ever I post about EQ2 and the few times about SOE. Never any of my other posts. You can draw your own conclusions on why that is. By the way for those that do not know I am the guy who posted the response that got ArchAngel3 so worked up that he needed to start this thread.
You certainly have no trouble labeling me a hater, troll and playing doctor phil and diagnosing me with mental defects in another thread, but here you are bellyaching about people doing that to you? I don't ever recall labeling you a troll, fanboi or saying you are mentally unstable, but you sure had no problem doing exactly what you are complaing about here do you? Please don't cry to hard about the treatment people give you when you are willing to sink right down to that same level of mudslinging. That just makes you a hypocrite.
You all to often confuse your enjoyment of eq2 as a good game with the operational practices of soe as a company. They are not the same thing and you enjoying a game does not diminish, justify or erase the manner in which the company conducts itself.
Come on Daff this is Eccoton you are talking to. I have respond specifiaclly to you more then any other person on these froums. You have walk the fine line of insults at me plenty of times and it never bothers me. Pointing it out is different then being upset by it. My comments here were not specifically directed at you. I have never called you a mental defective. In one post suggested you may have issues with hating SOE when you quote the same reponse by me a week after the first time you quoted it, as if you forgot you had already quoted it 6 days earlier in the same way.
I have said more then once you are a smart guy and we are wasting time dancing around this issue as much as we have. You know darn well I have never gone out of my way to insulted you. You may have been mad by what I have said but my years of posts prove I do not engage in insults. I stop responding to your questions on ethics by saying it was not out of disrespect but I see no point in it anymore, since we go over the same stuff again and again and will never agree. You know that is true. Yes, I have suggested you have tried to bait and troll me and yes I definetly think you are a SOE "hater". If you are insulted by that then so be it.
When has anyone ever insisted that SONY can do no wrong?
There we go. A reasonable retort to the OP. I believe taht's the first in this thread. Bravo.
I also have never said SOE could do no wrong and the OP quotes me as the reason for this post. Some suggest I say that, which is wrong. I have only said SOE is an ethical company not a perfect company. I have also said many time that the positive things I have experienced from SONY/SOE are far more then the bad and that is why I stay a customer not because SOE is perfect.
People who know me would say I am a very ethical person. I consider myself as such. However ,I am not perfect I have made plenty of mistakes. Even mistakes some may label as unethical. That is called being a human.
When has anyone ever insisted that SONY can do no wrong?
There we go. A reasonable retort to the OP. I believe taht's the first in this thread. Bravo.
I also have never said SOE could do no wrong and the OP quotes me as the reason for this post. Some suggest I say that, which is wrong. I have only said SOE is an ethical company not a perfect company. I have also said many time that the positive things I have experienced from SONY/SOE are far more then the bad and that is why I stay a customer not because SOE is perfect.
People who know me would say I am a very ethical person. I consider myself as such. However ,I am not perfect I have made plenty of mistakes. Even mistakes some may label as unethical. That is called being a human.
Then why did you make the claim that you got flamed because you said that you like EQ2?
Comments
Personally, I am rather fond of the "Everyone does it so it’s the corporate norm" excuse. I fully intend to write the various forms of government that oversee such infractions and ploys to tell them their services are not needed. The public has clearly spoken from underneath their covers where they hide from moral responsibility and the basic role of business watchdogs. They accept lies, misdeeds and swindling as part of the norm and seem willing to forgo any recourse should it happen to them.
Also, I intend to call together the advertising industry, to which I am a part of, and inform them of this new carte blanche attitude. The majority of us who try to play it safe and occasionally partake in minor infractions will have some adjusting to do but figure since everyone is not only doing it but that it is now perfectly acceptable - we will adjust accordingly.
Thank you, Arch! Had you not brought this up and allowed the masses to share their indifference - I would not have known.
Wow, this thread delivers. Not only does it show a history of corruption at SONY (Including SOE), it also shows the weak arguments of the SONY/SOE apologists. "Everybody does it" and attack the accuser.
Good work, Arc.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Thx Fisher. It's like I've said for a while, gamers form a community and I want to be a good neighbour. I think part of that is calling a spade a spade and letting people know the track record of the service providers we may want to do business with.
Some of the posts have cast aspersions on my motivations for creating this thread. In the hope of putting speculation to rest, I'm going to post for you what sparked this:
"SOE and SONY are an ethical company. I have never seen any unethical behavior. SOE changes some games without consulting all it's players, so what. They added item malls to some games after saying they weren't, so what. They ruined SWG with NGE and paid a huge price for it, so what. How is any of that unethical? I have been a customer of SONY for over 3 decades. While I was unhappy with SWG-nge I have never seen any unethical behavior as so many whiney SOE "hater" love to claim when they attack anything SOE does."
This is from another forum, and I've highlighted for you the claims I'm responding to, as well as my reasoning for putting the response in this particular forum (see above font changes). The suggestion seems to be that Sony and SOE have done no wrong and that the only people who criticize them are whiny SWG vets that don't have any justifiable concerns.
Well, now y'all know my answer to that lol
P.S. If anyone wants to come to the table with claims of ethical purity for SOE and Sony, and with criticism of understandably disgruntled customers, I think you should do your homework first.
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
I gotta say, this opened my eyes also.
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
lessee rootkits was an attempt to prevent music from being copied and resold or handed out free to others. It was an attempt to protect the recording artists copyrights (bunch of people got pissed off bad sony). Child rights violations and paying off a witness belongs in national enquirer if it really did happen is debatable and just "hot gossip". Not sure about "pretending to be something they are not for movies" but anyhow yeah some of it is obviously fiction other is just the consumer industry not liking certain methods adopted to prevent what basically was considered theft and widespread. It was however something for people to grab hold of as a competitor and use to increase their sales or in your case continue to hate them some more.
Oddly enough none of this has to do with sony online entertainment these are other companies under the sony umbrella. As an aside I dont particularly like sony but they make some good TV sets and some games I like. They are a major power in certain industries if you can manage to avoid their parts (probably some in your computer) and every thing else with a sony name on it I would be amazed. Do I like everything they do? No but I dont beat them over the head with it I take note and dont buy their cd's, but that is about all I can do and even then I can't totally avoid it in the end.
A guy got mad at me because at one point I wore rebooks. I wore them for years and years as I have knee problems and this brand was recommended by an orthopedics specialist. Should I have caused myself great pain because of their involvment with south africa?
My internet company which has a basic monopoly on my cable based broad band internet (rogers the guys with the ipod problems awhile back).
Bottom line archangel there is a lot of strange things happening in the world .Should I stop watching TV,using the internet or doing anything online because my alternatives are no better? Should I take more anti-inflamatories and wear a brand which causes me great pain?
Feel free to speak up about them but also realize that apart from being mildly annoyed over rootkits I still have my sony TV set and I'm pretty sure the dvd rom inside my computer is sony's and yes I use some of their software games, I still use rogers's cable and if I had not found a brand better then rebook in more recent times (Avia) I would still be wearing Reebok running shoes.
Do I excuse it? No but a lot of it is just noise created by the comptetition trying to boost their sales.
I would say I have very good perspective and dont live in a blind rage over things that are half media hype created by other corporations to try to fool consumers into switching brands.
I think sony can do plenty wrong and HAS done plenty wrong, but I know of no company out there that has done nothing wrong hence when I see a product I want that has a sony name on it I will buy it as in some cases it offers the best quality in whatever industry its a part of. They dominate the blue ray market and blue ray is on the rise. If it eventually becomes and industry norm I won't be stopping to watch movies because of the fact that sony owns the rights to blue ray.
Personally when I see you hating on one company on mmorpg.com and not others I consider its you that has lost perspective and not the other way round.
edit sorry for chopped up sentances. I dont have time to fix it and have to get back to work. This note was inserted for those with sensitive eyes who can't recognize a post written in a hurry on a coffee break :O
The only thing I am defending is rational and logical thinking, something you havent shown us yet. "sony was fined 6 digits"...? Do you know how many companies are paying out money for lawsuits, mistakes or just out right stupidity? if you think Sony is the only one then you are sorely mistaken. Feel free to look up any lawsuits on the chain of companies that own blizzard for example.
Going back to "sony paying 6 digits".... Did you know some guy recently fell off his bike and blamed it on the sidewalk, which then ended up with him blaming the city. He was able to sue for 5 million dollars because he was a dumb ass and fell off his bike. He got away with it! Does that make the city wrong? Does it make them evil? Or does it mean some guy is taking advantage of the system. Sadly when someone sues a department of the city, and the city fronts the bill, it comes out of tax payer dollars. Its different with private companies and corporations...but guess what, the point remains the same. It doesnt make the city/corporation/company evil, bad, or wrong. In fact, in this case the guy was wrong, and used the system to get away with it.
Just like a burglar can use the system to sue the owner of a home that hes breaking into, because he hurt himself on the property.
Hey did you know PETA is filing charges because a game contains animals that can get killed. Did you know they can get away with it, claim its supporting animal cruelty, and get a nice paycheck if they win in court. People milk the loopholes in the system, and if you noticed they all claim its "ethical" bullshiet.
Im telling you, you dont have a valid case for your argument. All i see is typical Sony hate, like a liberal to hates conservatives for no reason other than thats what he identifies with himself as doing. It sounds like you rally under a "hate sony" banner, and no matter how illogical it is, you feel it must be your mission to make them look worse, since its some how a crusade. I just dont see the logic in this, especially when you see every single big company being the target for this kind of stuff. If you really feel pissed off, feel free to rage against the banking system thats destroying the worlds economy, the greedy corporations that are actually the CAUSE of real unethical practices and events... Trust me, your time would be better spend there than raging against Sony on a video game forum.
Just because a company is forced to pay a sum of money, either because they didnt want to deal with it and because it just wasnt worth fighting, or because they were indeed some
We can compare the sidewalk example to the rootkits if you like, or the misleading marketting for PSP, or the illegal collection of information from minors on the internet, or the judge's comments about Sony paying someone for his testimony in court.
I agree that just because someone wins money in court does not mean they were right. If you review these cases, however, I think you'll see that the cash penalty wasn't the most compelling part of the argument. I'm just saying that an 18.5 million dollar fine does not appear trivial.
Also, I just post here as a hobby. Believe me, I spend a lot more time and energy addressing some of the other issues you mention. This is me taking a break lol.
I appreciate your arguments too, they're very intelligent and logically presented, even though I disagree--with respect.
P.S. One final thought for the night, well more of a question really. If Sony wants to seperate itself from the tarnished reputation of some of its subsidiaries, is it taking steps to ensure that there is appropriate management restructuring where it's needed? Are the decision makers responsible for ethical problems subject to any investigation and/or disciplinary action? If so, I think this would build some trust. Just my opinion.
A woman successfully sued macdonalds because she burnt herself on a cup of coffee that she placed between her legs cause she was in a wheelchair. She sued them on the basis that they did not warn her that the coffee in the cup was hot. Hence the evil macdonalds causes bodily harm and is unethical based on this case..
Loved this thread by the way want to see more made me wonder what you were doing this weekend .. Now I know
p.s. I hate macdonalds because their food is worse then horrible however I don't see that they should come under fire as a corporation for reasons like this, but yet they do.. sounds familiar..
Do you really think that paying off a witness in court, violating children's rights, paying off radio stations to manipulate ratings, planting rootkits, and having Sony advertisers pretend to be something they are not for movies and PSPs are the same as spilled coffee? I'm confident that most readers will be able to put these things into perspective.
lessee rootkits was an attempt to prevent music from being copied and resold or handed out free to others. It was an attempt to protect the recording artists copyrights (bunch of people got pissed off bad sony). Child rights violations and paying off a witness belongs in national enquirer if it really did happen is debatable and just "hot gossip". Not sure about "pretending to be something they are not for movies" but anyhow yeah some of it is obviously fiction other is just the consumer industry not liking certain methods adopted to prevent what basically was considered theft and widespread. It was however something for people to grab hold of as a competitor and use to increase their sales or in your case continue to hate them some more.
Oddly enough none of this has to do with sony online entertainment these are other companies under the sony umbrella. As an aside I dont particularly like sony but they make some good TV sets and some games I like. They are a major power in certain industries if you can manage to avoid their parts (probably some in your computer) and every thing else with a sony name on it I would be amazed. Do I like everything they do? No but I dont beat them over the head with it I take note and dont buy their cd's, but that is about all I can do and even then I can't totally avoid it in the end.
A guy got mad at me because at one point I wore rebooks. I wore them for years and years as I have knee problems and this brand was recommended by an orthopedics specialist. Should I have caused myself great pain because of their involvment with south africa?
My internet company which has a basic monopoly on my cable based broad band internet (rogers the guys with the ipod problems awhile back).
Bottom line archangel there is a lot of strange things happening in the world .Should I stop watching TV,using the internet or doing anything online because my alternatives are no better? Should I take more anti-inflamatories and wear a brand which causes me great pain?
Feel free to speak up about them but also realize that apart from being mildly annoyed over rootkits I still have my sony TV set and I'm pretty sure the dvd rom inside my computer is sony's and yes I use some of their software games, I still use rogers's cable and if I had not found a brand better then rebook in more recent times (Avia) I would still be wearing Reebok running shoes.
Do I excuse it? No but a lot of it is just noise created by the comptetition trying to boost their sales.
I would say I have very good perspective and dont live in a blind rage over things that are half media hype created by other corporations to try to fool consumers into switching brands.
I think sony can do plenty wrong and HAS done plenty wrong, but I know of no company out there that has done nothing wrong hence when I see a product I want that has a sony name on it I will buy it as in some cases it offers the best quality in whatever industry its a part of. They dominate the blue ray market and blue ray is on the rise. If it eventually becomes and industry norm I won't be stopping to watch movies because of the fact that sony owns the rights to blue ray.
Personally when I see you hating on one company on mmorpg.com and not others I consider its you that has lost perspective and not the other way round.
edit sorry for chopped up sentances. I dont have time to fix it and have to get back to work. This note was inserted for those with sensitive eyes who can't recognize a post written in a hurry on a coffee break :O
Yup. Everybody is doing it. It's SONY, not SOE. All irrelevant arguments.
This is a Star Wars Galaxies Veterans refuge. The only companies worth discussing here are SONY and LEC (maybe Bioware if we choose to compare SWTOR with SWG and so on).
The sad, shabby tactics of the SONY apologists are amusing to say the least. It certainly leads one to question their motives.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Now I am an apologist? Lets see on these forums I have been called: an idiot, an apologist, unethical, SOE employee, Viral marketer for SOE, and recently it was suggested I am Smedely himself. The difference between me and the "haters"is I am not obsessed with SOE. SOE means no more to me then Blizzard, Mythic, EA, Turbine, or any other game company. I post on many topics and many games but EQ2 is my favorite game. However, many here have quoted me out of context and suggested I am some sort of SOE zombie because in my many years and hundreds of post a very small amount have been in support of SOE games. I find it funny the only things people attack me for is anything to do with EQ2 or SOE. Nothing I have said about any other game or company ever raises an eyebrow. They seem to over look threads and post I have made against things SOE has done. They simply do not like that I am still a SOE customer. To ArchAngel3 do you own one single item made by SONY? If you do then your opinion on SOE/SONY means precisely "dick" (Men in Black reference)
The fact is this all began by me supporting and defending EQ2 as a good game. The SOE "hater" started attacking me and my unethical support of EQ2. I simply got tired of all the personnel attacks by the "haters" and I voiced this after threads I started to help people with EQ2 were hyjacked by "haters". I simply made a stance and have been attacked ever since when ever I post about EQ2 and the few times about SOE. Never any of my other posts. You can draw your own conclusions on why that is.
By the way for those that do not know I am the guy who posted the response that got ArchAngel3 so worked up that he needed to start this thread.
what about for those who insist Sony has done no right?
Show me one person on the entire galaxy who has ever said that.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Hmm. I've said that EQ2 is a good game. Even well known SOE "haters" such as Wildcat have said the same thing. I've never been flamed for saying that.
It must be you, or perhaps it was the context in which you said it.
The only thing I get flamed for by the "haters" is the fact that I am not part of the boycott. I don't believe in boycotting, and never have. I play games I enjoy and that's that. I do not, however verbally defend SONY/SOE for any of their actions. When they lie cheat and defraud their customers, I say it's wrong.
That being said. I don't care if I get flamed for things I say -- I merely, as always point out that the person needs to flame others, and how that shows poor argumentation tactics.
Sticks and stones and all that.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Since something dumb once happened in a court of law once it justifies all the past and current actions of soe (sony) as a whole.
More of the same. Look someone/something else did this so it is ok mentality.
You certainly have no trouble labeling me a hater, troll and playing doctor phil and diagnosing me with mental defects in another thread, but here you are bellyaching about people doing that to you? I don't ever recall labeling you a troll, fanboi or saying you are mentally unstable, but you sure had no problem doing exactly what you are complaing about here do you? Please don't cry to hard about the treatment people give you when you are willing to sink right down to that same level of mudslinging. That just makes you a hypocrite.
You all to often confuse your enjoyment of eq2 as a good game with the operational practices of soe as a company. They are not the same thing and you enjoying a game does not diminish, justify or erase the manner in which the company conducts itself.
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
All i got to say on the subject...
IS DIE SOE DIE !!!
LMAO
Im also positive that SOE wont pull another NGE on current SWG. They simply lack the resources for that atm
for one thing and as arrogant as their suits might be, they do realise that it was a bad move (eventhough they might not admit it publicly).
I pay for current game, not for the old mistake. If they change it in a way that I find gamebreaking, Ill voice my opinion, stop paying and move on.
The problem isn't entirely what soe did in the past. It is that they have not changed since those times.
Sure they may not employ another drastic change on the scale of the NGE, because it was such a complete disaster. However they still conduct themselves in a similar fashion to this day.
Look at the manner in which they implemented the station cash system. They simply patched it into the game without telling the players it was coming. They knew full well that this would cause some people to leave and they still went right ahead with it, because they do not listen to their players. They listen to their accountants and marketing teams which is the root cause of the NGE in the first place. The only difference is that soe has much much more experience in how to deal with upset players. Station cash mirrors the ethics and decision making that went into the handling of the nge step for step.
I can't say with any measurable level of confidence that soe wouldn't do another nge style change to one of their games if marketing told them it would generate more money. Nothing and I mean nothing lends any credible level of confidence that soe has changed their stance on how to treat their customers. They will simply do whatever they want to their games and the players be damned.
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
I never said you were the "only one" who has gotten flamed or attacked for being ok with SOE, in fact,m in your post you didn't even say YOU got flamed for being ok with SOE -- you stated you got flamed for saying EQ2 was a good game. Which is it?
Now it definitely seems to be your manner of posting which is causing you problems, since YOu are shifting grounds right here and now.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Yea I am the only one who has gotten flamed or attack for my being ok with SOE. The fact I start a post and talk only about how to set EQ2 graphic entices the anti-SOE folks to hyjack a thread is my fault. The fact I post about Free Realms and talk about it's game play is simply baiting the "haters". Thanks for clearing that up, it is obviously me.
I never said I cared about being flamed, I was pointing out how far the "haters" have gone with their anti-SOE retoric.Your experiences are different then mine. Does make them right just different.
I never said you were the "only one" who has gotten flamed or attacked for being ok with SOE, in fact,m in your post you didn't even say YOU got flamed for being ok with SOE -- you stated you got flamed for saying EQ2 was a good game. Which is it?
Now it definitely seems to be your manner of posting which is causing you problems, since YOu are shifting grounds right here and now.
Just like I posted seconds before Ecco did in this post. He has trouble differentiating the enjoyment level of EQ2 with the operational policies and actions of soe as a business. He just doesn't see them as different aspects.
Im also positive that SOE wont pull another NGE on current SWG. They simply lack the resources for that atm
for one thing and as arrogant as their suits might be, they do realise that it was a bad move (eventhough they might not admit it publicly).
I pay for current game, not for the old mistake. If they change it in a way that I find gamebreaking, Ill voice my opinion, stop paying and move on.
The problem isn't entirely what soe did in the past. It is that they have not changed since those times.
Sure they may not employ another drastic change on the scale of the NGE, because it was such a complete disaster. However they still conduct themselves in a similar fashion to this day.
Look at the manner in which they implemented the station cash system. They simply patched it into the game without telling the players it was coming. They knew full well that this would cause some people to leave and they still went right ahead with it, because they do not listen to their players. They listen to their accountants and marketing teams which is the root cause of the NGE in the first place. The only difference is that soe has much much more experience in how to deal with upset players. Station cash mirrors the ethics and decision making that went into the handling of the nge step for step.
I can't say with any measurable level of confidence that soe wouldn't do another nge style change to one of their games if marketing told them it would generate more money. Nothing and I mean nothing lends any credible level of confidence that soe has changed their stance on how to treat their customers. They will simply do whatever they want to their games and the players be damned.
Yup, it is not so much for what they did, but for the fact taht they have shown time and again that they have learned nothing from the NGE.
fishermage.blogspot.com
My question to the OP:
When has anyone ever insisted that SONY can do no wrong?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You certainly have no trouble labeling me a hater, troll and playing doctor phil and diagnosing me with mental defects in another thread, but here you are bellyaching about people doing that to you? I don't ever recall labeling you a troll, fanboi or saying you are mentally unstable, but you sure had no problem doing exactly what you are complaing about here do you? Please don't cry to hard about the treatment people give you when you are willing to sink right down to that same level of mudslinging. That just makes you a hypocrite.
You all to often confuse your enjoyment of eq2 as a good game with the operational practices of soe as a company. They are not the same thing and you enjoying a game does not diminish, justify or erase the manner in which the company conducts itself.
Come on Daff this is Eccoton you are talking to. I have respond specifiaclly to you more then any other person on these froums. You have walk the fine line of insults at me plenty of times and it never bothers me. Pointing it out is different then being upset by it. My comments here were not specifically directed at you. I have never called you a mental defective. In one post suggested you may have issues with hating SOE when you quote the same reponse by me a week after the first time you quoted it, as if you forgot you had already quoted it 6 days earlier in the same way.
I have said more then once you are a smart guy and we are wasting time dancing around this issue as much as we have. You know darn well I have never gone out of my way to insulted you. You may have been mad by what I have said but my years of posts prove I do not engage in insults. I stop responding to your questions on ethics by saying it was not out of disrespect but I see no point in it anymore, since we go over the same stuff again and again and will never agree. You know that is true. Yes, I have suggested you have tried to bait and troll me and yes I definetly think you are a SOE "hater". If you are insulted by that then so be it.
There we go. A reasonable retort to the OP. I believe taht's the first in this thread. Bravo.
fishermage.blogspot.com
There we go. A reasonable retort to the OP. I believe taht's the first in this thread. Bravo.
I also have never said SOE could do no wrong and the OP quotes me as the reason for this post. Some suggest I say that, which is wrong. I have only said SOE is an ethical company not a perfect company. I have also said many time that the positive things I have experienced from SONY/SOE are far more then the bad and that is why I stay a customer not because SOE is perfect.
People who know me would say I am a very ethical person. I consider myself as such. However ,I am not perfect I have made plenty of mistakes. Even mistakes some may label as unethical. That is called being a human.
There we go. A reasonable retort to the OP. I believe taht's the first in this thread. Bravo.
I also have never said SOE could do no wrong and the OP quotes me as the reason for this post. Some suggest I say that, which is wrong. I have only said SOE is an ethical company not a perfect company. I have also said many time that the positive things I have experienced from SONY/SOE are far more then the bad and that is why I stay a customer not because SOE is perfect.
People who know me would say I am a very ethical person. I consider myself as such. However ,I am not perfect I have made plenty of mistakes. Even mistakes some may label as unethical. That is called being a human.
Then why did you make the claim that you got flamed because you said that you like EQ2?
Is that one of your "mistakes?"
fishermage.blogspot.com