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Anyone else find endgames in MMOs a Bore?
JGMIII
Member Posts: 1,282
Not only do I find Endgames boring I think they totally destroy a good MMO.
For me when I play an MMO i like to enjoy a game world, explore, group, gain new abilities basically do the same old stuff that you guys enjoy.
Once I get to the point that im at Endgame level everything goes down hill.
I usually call this the bait and switch in MMOs. Basically I've been playing a MMO a certain way and really enjoy it and all of a sudden everything changes. Now I have to farm dungeons or instanced pvp for gear or run a million repeatable quests for currency to afford some god awful social item.
Almost every MMO is like this so im not just picking on one in particular.
I personally just find the whole Endgame concept lame.
Do I have any Idea how to fix endgames in MMO? no not really and personally I know im the minority in the way i feel about endgame mechanics.
What do you guys think? Do you enjoy Endgames the way they are? Do you have any suggestions on how to make endgames less like a repeatable grind? Know how to avoid the bait and switch?
Let me know....
Thanks for Reading.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Comments
I personally find it lame that I have to be botherd with all the boring leveling to get to the endgame.
If the endgame is supposed to be the best part, shouldnt it come on day one?
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I agree with you in many respects.
The challenge often faced is some people complain about the long grind, and some people complain due to lack of content at higher levels.
Personally I've always enjoyed the grind because it makes for a much bigger accomplishment once you reach end level. One of the best examples I can give is a non-mmo Diablo II. In the early days before hacks and mule characters it took a long time to reach max level. Once you did there was pvp and the never ending search for uber loot.
MMO's typically make it pretty easy to obtain max level, and once you do you typically have to spend countless hours relying on the competency of other players to progress your toon. Other games require non-strategic PvP to get bettter loot. Honestly I don't think anyone has nailed it yet.
Personally I like the grind. I like the distinction in levels between character v.s. the line being drawn by who has the best guild to reap loot. Multiple peoples skill is much less than an individuals skill, and some MMO needs to build off of the individuals skills being brought together BUT not dependant on the the skill/time-spent of others grouping /w you.
This is one of those great topics that I'd live to go back and forth with a developer.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
Yeah kinda like taking retirement from age 20-40 then working until you die.
I personally hate the Bait and switch ( I want the same game all the way through). I guess what you're describing is the reverse which also sucks.
Whether you like the journey or the Grind at the end it should be that way from beginning to end and not change and become a totally different game.
this of course is my opinion and like I said im the minority.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Prime example of opinion. He'd prefer to jump straight to the end content. I'm an avid gamer of the end content, but I also really enjoy the leveling experience that caries a change of scenary every few levels. I normally go to sleep with the same hue of colors burnt into my skull from spending countless hours in the same instance because it's the only one that provides the superior gear considered an upgrade. The sad thing is many mmo's have so much time and development into MULTIPLE instances that never get visited again because the loot is unuseful.
Maybe when a developer finds a creative, fun, and challenging way to revisit past content we'll start to have more scenary to visit. If you play WoW; let's be clear Nax is a terrible example of reusing content. Before the beta I excited to see this content again, and still get upgrades from visiting it again . . . BUT all it did was buy blizzard time to work on Uld . . . now the only reason I play the game. WoW is just my example, but currently all other games use the same formula so it's no different. We pay 14.99 per month to farm the same single instance 10-25 hours per week while thousands of hours worth of development in the rest of Azeroth rots.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
Yeah kinda like taking retirement from age 20-40 then working until you die.
Haha, I've had the same thought. Our good years are taken away with school or work, and we're left with the days were someone has to care for us
With the trillions of debt we're being put into, why not let us be free millionairs now and enslave us later lol.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I have always been anti raid content when it came to endgame. I liked the Hellgate london model where everything could be accomplished with 1 group. If we must have endgame content in form of raids they should max be made of 2 groups.
Whether you like the journey or the Grind at the end it should be that way from beginning to end and not change and become a totally different game.
this of course is my opinion and like I said im the minority.
What if there was a game with a much longer leveling curve . . . say it takes a year to reach max level, but every so many levels you could participate in "raid like" content to progress and challenge your gaming experience with out the weight of "I wish I was max level."
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I think 'endgames' are a hold over from the linear world of conventional computer games. I think MMOs are a different thing altogether.
Old style computer games are vertical and MMOs are horizontal.
In a properly designed MMO there wouldn't be an 'endgame' because you would just move on over to a new part of the MMO world.
People who go on about 'endgames' are so boring and missing the point of MMO.
Whether you like the journey or the Grind at the end it should be that way from beginning to end and not change and become a totally different game.
this of course is my opinion and like I said im the minority.
What if there was a game with a much longer leveling curve . . . say it takes a year to reach max level, but every so many levels you could participate in "raid like" content to progress and challenge your gaming experience with out the weight of "I wish I was max level."
That sound pretty good as long as the gameplay stayed like that and didnt change to only raid grinding hours on end.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
I havn't found a MMO with a end game that I like either yet. Raiding the same places over and over has to be the most boring thing ever invented. It's a little exciting to get a new shiny but not anywhere near worth the hours of boredom. In most MMOs I like leveling more than I like the end game.
I don't really have a suggestion of what could be done either but I really would like to see something new.
Mortal Online sounds pretty cool with it's crafting and item discovery type mechanics. What I like most about it is that there's NO RAIDING except for rare world bosses which sounds fun since you don't have to grind a long dumbass instance to get to.
I love endgame in MMOs. I find it great to head into some massive instance with a group of 9 of your friends to take down some epic monster for great gear. When I was raiding in WoW, I only went maybe 2-3 times a week, with the ocassional 25 man or 40 man raid, and I loved every second. Also I had to heal so I was always in action, always watching the gameplay. But I see what you mean, after awhile, without new content, it becomes a chore. I remember my guild mates running Heroic instances like 15 times a day for badges and loot so they could get some ring or something. But overall, I'd have to argue and say that endgame makes a game good. That's when the serious playing begins. Just my thoughts, though.
"...these forums are like soap operas"-Nihce
I think endgame is an excuse for not having a more rich game. Just ask anyone about WoW and they will tell you the same quote that has been uttered a billion times on the internet:
"The real game in WoW starts at Level Cap". (TM)
And so, 95% or so of the players just reroll when they cap because they don't have the time or desire to get into the raid grind. Most players who have been there any length of time have rerolled and maxed all of their toon slots. I honestly do not know what drives people do this. I capped a hunter in that game and I was done. The thought of rerolling made me throw up in my mouth a little.
This question is only going to continue to grow as people get tired of the same old crap in theme park games. No, adding more quests (SWTOR) isn't going to fix the problem. I see WoW and that group of games as an entry level MMO. Once you get bored with that crap it's time to go find something a little deeper to play. Something with a community within the game.
This is why there will be plenty of room for niche MMO's in the future. While games like WoW will still do well with new players and hardcore casual soloers, there will be more and more people who come out of those games wanting something more. Everyone around here likes to say that the sandbox game style is dead, but it clearly is not. There are certain people who will gravitate towards a sandbox, so the more that leave WoW and try one, the better for us all. Now we just need a decent sandbox game to play
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The problem is, all the alternatives are even less interesting than raiding, and anyways, it's subjective.
Some people want more than running over the same content with different classes. Once you have rolled through cap in WoW, you get the idea of the game. There is no community, or sandbox content, to allow the users to create their own adventures. It's a very, very shallow game. Fun as it may be (for a while) at some point you are just repeating the same content and not forging your own path through the game world.
Also, as noted above, some people don't care for sandbox features, but I can see the need for this type of gameplay is growing. If people get bored with theme-park MMO's and there is nothing else to turn to, they will leave the genre or quit gaming. I've been waiting a year now for something worth playing.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I hope you don't mean what you type here.
In Wow one goal is to craft my motorbike and the latest helicopter. Another goal is to make it to Justicar or perhaps even Battlemaster in PvP. Another goal is to be Rival instead of Challenger.
Theme park ... what a laugh: calling Wow same old crap. What do you call the dozens of failed and talentless MMO's launched since Wow then?
Utterly crap?
Get a grip on yourself: your kind is a dying species. Wake up and see that Wow is more sandboxed than a space game where you can't even leave your cockpit chair.
Sandbox as in ... choices of how you want to play and WHICH part you want to play and ... fly away with crafted helicopters and motorbikes.
Reality checks for mother's basements children, that's what these forums should be.
Games.
Zorndorf,
When you grow up a little, you will learn that not everyone agrees with your style of game play. I love how you get personally offended that everyone doesn't have the starry-eyed look at WoW that you do.
It's a subjective thing. I had no idea I was going to prefer sandbox games to themepark until I had played both. Based on what you are saying, you are perfectly happy with theme-parks and you would likely be bored to death in a game that has more focus on community, player interaction, and a balance of combat and non-combat classes/gameplay. Or, maybe you have never played a sandbox game, and you don't know if you would like it or not. Either way, who cares?
There is no need for you to get upset here. So you love WoW, good for you. When you get sick of it you can go find a clone. Some of us don't care for endgame, and we want more options while we level. Just because WoW is enough for you, doesn't mean it is for me. At any rate, I hope you continue to have fun in your games.
And if you want to get personal, you don't have the slightest clue who I am or what I do, so sitting there pretending I am some transparent skinned child hanging out on my mom's basement just because I don't agree wtih you, only makes you look like a twelve year old idiot. Have a nice life.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Let's see:
Raiding
Questing
PVP ( including arenas )
Crafting
Role Playing
Dungeons
Exploring
Achievements
Holiday events
If a person can't find something fun to do at endgame within a game as deep as WOW, it's more of a problem with the person's lack of imagination that it is a problem with the game.
There was nothing constructive in your entire post Zorn, the guy didn't even insult you yet you still managed to look like a child throwing a tantrum.. what is your malfunction? Might want to give the internet a break for a while
Hammertime
"Let's see:
Raiding/Questing/Dungeons/Exploring are all the same category, how exactly do you explore in WoW after you've reached max level? If you weren't power leveling chances are you've been everywhere.
PVP ( including arenas )
Crafting - isn't boring at all
Role Playing - seriously?
Achievements - Some people aren't OCD for achievements, it doesn't qualify as content
Holiday events - Holiday...
If a person can't find something fun to do at endgame within a game as deep as WOW, it's more of a problem with the person's lack of imagination that it is a problem with the game."
Deep isn't the word for it, all mmo's have these things you speak of
The only one acting like a child is the guy that doesn't know how to play ... a game.
Dude chill out you're the one that flew off the handle... not him...
I don't agree with alot of his posts, but there was no reason to go off on him like that.
Can you guys not polute my whole god damn thread with that WoW bullshit.
In my OP i specifically said I wasnt targetting a specific mmo, WoW is not the only MMO with a Bait and switch Endgame.
So please Gtfo!
Zorn your a freaking Thread derailing plague, guys please just put him on ignore.
To the other guys that actually responded to my OP, thank you.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
eve is a good mmo for not having an end game bore because it really doesnt have an end game, literrally you can almost never get maxed out in everything, at least no one has yet because every time you finish training something theres always something you dont have yet. i guess some of the 5 year vets are getting close but theyre the ones with maxed out corp leader skills and cap ships and all that and have some alts for boxing with and still play so it cant be too bad at that end of the spectrum, my problem with eve was the nooby boredom factor, when you have no skills and it takes like 3 months to get to decently effective levels of skills for the funner stuff either combat with a battle ship or big mining op ships i kept falling asleep at the keyboard when not tired waiting for this or that to train.
I think every game I have ever played the journey was better than the destination.......I raided in EQ for 3-4 years and after that I was pretty much done with raiding....i tried a few in WOW and found them extremely boring and tedious........Ive never been one to do a dungeon 57 times hoping for an epic piece or two....To me it jsut isnt worth it..........
End game raiding? I agree with you.
End game RvR like in DAoC? IMO it really ads something to the game.
Th op's post above is right....
*yawn* who cares about wow, it did what it did and now its a dinosaur, move on.
Back to the topic:
I think the whole premise behind this attitude that endgames are a bore and ruin the game are based on some pretty solid facts.
First is the fact that its called endgame for a reason, the game is over, the end. But for those who dont want to re roll or move on here is stuff to do. Think about it, even in games that focus solely on endgame, it really isnt much of an mmorpg is it?
Second is the fact that all of a sudden the game youve been playing (for however long) has dramatically changed. You no longer have tons of skills to unlock, tons of equipment to find and tons of stats to distribute.
In short, endgame is diffrent from the rest of the game, simply for the fact that it is the end of the game.
There are those who have fun and endup hitting endgame, and those who try to hit endgame then have fun, cliche quote but it really highlights a lot of what goes on at endgame. For those who liked the act of leveling, progressing and questing, the game is infact over, on all accounts. For those who powerlevel to the end, the games just begun, but they usualy find that there just isnt enough to keep them all that long, unless they reroll.
So there you have it, two general groups of people with diffrent views on what the most enjoyable part of an mmo is, forced to play together and enjoy the same game.
My personal opinion is that there are a whole lot of people who hate the core of what is a mmorpg, playing mmorpgs. It seems that these people are greater in number than those who want to actually play the damn mmorpg levels 1 to endgame. This is why you see a whole lot of games that follow the mold of endgame endgame endgame, with as little before it as possible.
The whole reason i like mmorpgs is that i can play them a lot for a long time, and still have endgame to look forward to. Although i do believe that community based pvp is needed in all endgames.
End game raiding? I agree with you.
End game RvR like in DAoC? IMO it really ads something to the game.
Dude DAoC is like one of the exceptions, what an amazing game seriously.
Mythic pissed me off beyond belief when WAR ended up being DAoC Lite instead of DAoC 2 with a WAR skin.
My OP isn't really directed at DAoC tbh. I wish more games were like it.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom