Th op's post above is right.... *yawn* who cares about wow, it did what it did and now its a dinosaur, move on. Back to the topic: I think the whole premise behind this attitude that endgames are a bore and ruin the game are based on some pretty solid facts. First is the fact that its called endgame for a reason, the game is over, the end. But for those who dont want to re roll or move on here is stuff to do. Think about it, even in games that focus solely on endgame, it really isnt much of an mmorpg is it? Second is the fact that all of a sudden the game youve been playing (for however long) has dramatically changed. You no longer have tons of skills to unlock, tons of equipment to find and tons of stats to distribute. In short, endgame is diffrent from the rest of the game, simply for the fact that it is the end of the game. There are those who have fun and endup hitting endgame, and those who try to hit endgame then have fun, cliche quote but it really highlights a lot of what goes on at endgame. For those who liked the act of leveling, progressing and questing, the game is infact over, on all accounts. For those who powerlevel to the end, the games just begun, but they usualy find that there just isnt enough to keep them all that long, unless they reroll. So there you have it, two general groups of people with diffrent views on what the most enjoyable part of an mmo is, forced to play together and enjoy the same game. My personal opinion is that there are a whole lot of people who hate the core of what is a mmorpg, playing mmorpgs. It seems that these people are greater in number than those who want to actually play the damn mmorpg levels 1 to endgame. This is why you see a whole lot of games that follow the mold of endgame endgame endgame, with as little before it as possible. The whole reason i like mmorpgs is that i can play them a lot for a long time, and still have endgame to look forward to. Although i do believe that community based pvp is needed in all endgames.
Great post!
Yep im the Minority, the Bait and switch freaking owns my face in almost every MMO on the market.
If found ways around this in smaller mmos so im cool.
Pity people who think WOW starts at the lvl cap. The only people who think that are the dumb ones. No MMO should start at the end. MMOs should start the minute you log in, which was where WOW changed the mold.. It was fun on day 1 instead of day 150. As far as end game goes, content can't last forever. Its going to get repetitive eventually. It HAS TO end if theres actual content to consume. What bait and switch? Thinking a game shouldn't end is ignoranance at its best. Everything gets boring eventually.
I'm not surprised that people get bent over the transition from leveling to raiding. They are two rather different experiences after all. As was stated earlier, the appeal of game content is subjective, and finding people who enjoy both the leveling process as well as the raiding process (or any other end-game) is going to be more difficult than finding someone who enjoys just one or the other.
I think that MMOs are in a rather primitive stage of their design evolution where it is assumed that players will be entertained by leveling up a character - and then designers are trying to introduce things for players to do with those characters. That means "end-game" activities. Various games provide raids. Dark Age of Camelot had RvR. It's an abrupt transition that turns off some percentage of the population. Also, it annoys people who want to play the end game without having to level up a character.
I'm hoping that designers will abandon the level-then-something-else design philosophy and start with a fundamental activity that players can engage in with characters. Within that environment, have players pursue various achievement-oriented activities along with exploration, roleplaying, socializing, politics, econimics and so forth. None of it requires levels, which are the original sin of RPGs.
My poster child for this idea is always EVE Online. It is at least one design increment beyond the rest of the pack.
I personally find it lame that I have to be botherd with all the boring leveling to get to the endgame. If the endgame is supposed to be the best part, shouldnt it come on day one?
I personally hate the Bait and switch ( I want the same game all the way through). I guess what you're describing is the reverse which also sucks.
Whether you like the journey or the Grind at the end it should be that way from beginning to end and not change and become a totally different game.
this of course is my opinion and like I said im the minority.
I guess i am too. I find the leveling the fun part. Guess thats why i have so many toons in every game ive played.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not only do I find Endgames boring I think they totally destroy a good MMO. For me when I play an MMO i like to enjoy a game world, explore, group, gain new abilities basically do the same old stuff that you guys enjoy. Once I get to the point that im at Endgame level everything goes down hill. I usually call this the bait and switch in MMOs. Basically I've been playing a MMO a certain way and really enjoy it and all of a sudden everything changes. Now I have to farm dungeons or instanced pvp for gear or run a million repeatable quests for currency to afford some god awful social item. Almost every MMO is like this so im not just picking on one in particular. I personally just find the whole Endgame concept lame. Do I have any Idea how to fix endgames in MMO? no not really and personally I know im the minority in the way i feel about endgame mechanics. What do you guys think? Do you enjoy Endgames the way they are? Do you have any suggestions on how to make endgames less like a repeatable grind? Know how to avoid the bait and switch? Let me know....
Thanks for Reading.
I could not agree more. Basically almost every MMO does this. 1-50 solo and group up for a 5 or 6 man instance and boom, when you hit end game, all that is there is running the same missions 100's of times to compete for armor and weapon sets. Except now you must do it in 25-100 man raids. I know there are tons of people out there that enjoy that style but seriously, does almost every freaking MMO have to follow that concept? I have always been a firm believer of a single group should be able to do any content in the game but that is just my opinion.
I think the endgame problems that most MMO's have is due to a multitude of reasons. First and foremost being the devs dont know what they want for their game.To many MMO's are trying to spread themselves out to thin by trying to give everyone something. Personally I think that these devs need to focus more and make the game they want and not the game they hope everyone will like. We need more niche games in the market. Here are my thoughts on this.
Right up front, PVP or not PVP. Dont give us this mixed bag of crap. either make it full or none at all. Dueling has been a tried and true feature for a long time, lets leave it for the non pvp folks. On a side note, to this. A PVP server and NON pvp server are perfectly fine as long as they make absolutely sure that they keep the code seperate and never ever nerf something due to a PVP or a dueling problem on a non pvp server. I can not stress this part enough. There is nothing worse than to get nerfed into oblivion on a non PVP because some winey asshat on a PVP server is pissed because you do more damage than their class does or that your class pwns them everytime they meet. Preferably though, lets just leave it as a pvp or non pvp game. Less confusion and less frustration due to pvp imbalancing.
Content. This is absolutely one of the main problems in most MMO's today. Sure you have your 1-50 content, but what do you do after that. Well first we have to look at the 1-50. The gaining of levels, new abilities and new equipment. Well, the levels and abilities take care of themselves. Now we get to the heart of the matter. New equipment. Everyone wants that shiny sword of pwnage or that breastplate of desire! Here is where I feel most companies go absurdly wrong with their MMO's. This is where the lack of content really kicks in at level 50. Now how do we make people stay once they level to 50. oh I know, lets make dugeons so stupidly hard and then put in items with insane stats on them but only give them like 5% chance to drop. yeah, they will play for months just to try and get a full set of this armor. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
What they should do is a simple concept but would require a lot of work (lazy ass devs!). First, they need to give the ability for you to customize your armor. By that, I mean something like dyeing your armor. They need to have good colors in the game and lots of them and be easily obtainable. None of this rare color crap, Give it all up to everyone. This is the first step at making people happy with armor sets. Next, they need to provide LOTS of choices. This is where it gets harder. First off, why can't there be more swords of pwnage but with different stats. Why not have the meat cleaver of death have the same stats as the sword of pwnage?
They need to make stats on weapons be more random. They need to have multitudes of weapons and armors in the game, not just a few but hundreds if not thousands of differnt types. This has a few good side effects. First off, Now instead of raiding for that 5% chance at the uber gear, your normal group can go through the same dungeons (just like you would in a raid) except now your going more for look than stats. Now you have more of a reason to re run dungeons to get that specific look you want and have good stats at the same time. Sure you got the meatcleaver of death but it doesnt really go with your Ninja theme you have going. so now you are on a mission to find that wakasahi that would make your ensemble complete. And even after its complete, since the stats are randomized, you may find a better piece of armor or equipment and then decide, man this is an awesome looking battle axe. Maybe I should rethink my ensemble and look more like Conan. The ideas are endless when you have something like this. This is the big step in ridding the world of raids forever. Well, at least for this particular game.
And last but not least. Economy. This is a pet peeve of mine. I have always hated player run economies. This causes one of the worst banes of existance to mmo's in the form of gold farmers. You get rid of a player run economy, you get rid of the gold farmers, for the most part. To make this work, you have to get rid of player trading. Well, you dont have to get rid of it, you just have to rethink it. I know player trading is a big social part of the game but there do have to be sacrifices and this is the big one. Instead of allowing players to trade amongst themselves, they need to set up brokers. unlike the auction houses in todays games, these brokers would have set limits on how much any item in the game is worth to them. Again more work on the devs part. But this gets rid of many things that irritate me about mmo's. I am all for a person to make a profit on their investments but there needs to be strict limits on how much profit one can make. Simply because everyone should be able to afford the item they want without having to backstab your team because you know that meatcleaver of death is worth billions on the market. In this scenario its only worth a few hundred. This allows people to play the game without worry of if they are going to be able to afford their next armor or weapon upgrades. Whats to keep people from just selling the items to vendors instead? Simple, you make the items worth MUCH less to sell to a crappy vendor.
Same goes with crafting. I have always found it ironic that crafters feel their time is worth 5x to 10x more valueable than the adventures time. Crafting has to change. The biggest reason folks craft in todays games is to get filthy rich. Not because they enjoy being a wood worker and can make some nice stuff and be able to sell it for a profit, they dont care for a reasonable profit, they want to be stinking rich and they dont care who they screw over to get it. If you want to be a merchant that is all fine and good. There is no reason why merchants cant make a nice living crafting and selling their wares. It just shouldn't be so disproportionate of what adventures make.
Well this has been long enough, so I will end with this. The above are just the first steps to making end game more fun for those of us that dont care about getting in a 100 man raid for the 5% chance at an item. Now if only the devs would rethink trying to be a wow killer and get back to making good unique games.
I direct you to Planet Side. yes, people have said EVE before, which is a great example. but planetside has no endgame, its just a MMOFPS (with a dash of RPG).
from day one you are trying to take over bases and win the war, and on day 1000 if its your thing, you will still be loving it. eventually you will hit the level cap, but it just means you have more options, not that anything changes.
WTB Planetside 2
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Yes, but it's for a logical reason. MMO's have a huge audience. If they focus on the high end content heavily they can't get as much done for the mid to low levels. Consequently most people in MMORPG games are mid levels and are not power gamers...this means they are focusing on the bulk of their target market. Is it ethical? Not really, but at least you see some games creating things for the upper echelon to do such as impossible raids and PvP with points systems.
I have always been disappointed with every endgame, but not necessarily because of design reasons, but because the journey is nearing its end, and any further gameplay is just a replay over a well-travelled path.
But, fortunately, I am a re-roller (i.e., I create new toons, run them to level 30 or so, roll a new toon and repeat), so often the upper half of a game is always a mystery to me and still provides the fun.
Interesting timing of this post. Op thank you for bringing this up. Recently having reached near cap in my current mmorpg. I went on my first high end raid group. Instructions were must have voice chat enabled. The raid leader did play by play of each hard node and gave strict compliance orders which how each boss was to be managed. We were divided into group 1 2 and 3. If one did not pay attention to voice instructions they were yelled at through voice during the raid. If lag occurred or blinding flashes of light getting disoriented a moment during play occurred one was also yelled at. Ninja looting was the rule of the day. If you were busy doing your job helping keep group alive by the time you did your thing the loot was gone.
In the end I just received a HUGE repair bill for several hours’ worth of intense game play. I sat there afterwards, going I went to Disney world all I got was this bad t shirt. Except I did not even get a t shirt just a huge re pair bill……..
Although I would encourage every player to try the big raid at least once. Never ever expect anything for the effort and the randomness of the /roll usually works in someone else’s favor.
To me the end game in my current mmorpg is just not worth the time effort and expense of ever trying it again.
I have always been disappointed with every endgame, but not necessarily because of design reasons, but because the journey is nearing its end, and any further gameplay is just a replay over a well-travelled path. But, fortunately, I am a re-roller (i.e., I create new toons, run them to level 30 or so, roll a new toon and repeat), so often the upper half of a game is always a mystery to me and still provides the fun.
Yes i usually get one toon to level cap and do the same as you do. I played WOW for a year or so with a guy that only one time i know of got a toon high enough to get a mount. You didnt play WOW on hellscream did you? :)
The two games that I played the longest (FFXI and AO) are the only two games I have ever played where I never hit max level. Kind of funny how that works. Played AO for 3+ years and FFXI for over 3 years. Capped out in WoW in a month and only played for about 2 months after that. Same with EQ2. Same with Warhammer. I guess im one of those old school types that didn't so much enjoy the "grind" of the older games but enjoyed leveling feeling more like a journey unstead of a quick trip around the block.
Frankly I think being able to hit max level in a month is insane but I understand why companies do it. Anytime a new game releases you will find a ton of "How long to max lvl??!!?" posts in the forums around here. Gamers are just so impatient these days.
The two games that I played the longest (FFXI and AO) are the only two games I have ever played where I never hit max level. Kind of funny how that works. Played AO for 3+ years and FFXI for over 3 years. Capped out in WoW in a month and only played for about 2 months after that. Same with EQ2. Same with Warhammer. I guess im one of those old school types that didn't so much enjoy the "grind" of the older games but enjoyed leveling feeling more like a journey unstead of a quick trip around the block. Frankly I think being able to hit max level in a month is insane but I understand why companies do it. Anytime a new game releases you will find a ton of "How long to max lvl??!!?" posts in the forums around here. Gamers are just so impatient these days.
Well FFXI and AO are extremely hardcore when it comes to leveling imo.
If you dont know what you're doing you can be leveling for a long ass time.
Personally I like it and wish more MMOs were like that.
I'm currently playing Ryzom (along with Eve) and this god damn game takes forever to level in.
Im a casual player when it comes to my second mmo and since August ive only managed to level 35% to skill cap (for 2h weps alone lol) in all that time.
I enjoy it so much more then the "level to endgame in three weeks" crap.
Games like AO, FFXI and Ryzom are a Dying breed my friend.
Not only do I find Endgames boring I think they totally destroy a good MMO. For me when I play an MMO i like to enjoy a game world, explore, group, gain new abilities basically do the same old stuff that you guys enjoy. Once I get to the point that im at Endgame level everything goes down hill. I usually call this the bait and switch in MMOs. Basically I've been playing a MMO a certain way and really enjoy it and all of a sudden everything changes. Now I have to farm dungeons or instanced pvp for gear or run a million repeatable quests for currency to afford some god awful social item. Almost every MMO is like this so im not just picking on one in particular. I personally just find the whole Endgame concept lame. Do I have any Idea how to fix endgames in MMO? no not really and personally I know im the minority in the way i feel about endgame mechanics. What do you guys think? Do you enjoy Endgames the way they are? Do you have any suggestions on how to make endgames less like a repeatable grind? Know how to avoid the bait and switch? Let me know....
Thanks for Reading.
Well, if we can agree that there isn't a game out there that has enough content to keep people busy indefinitely, then I have something to say.
You don't have to raid, pvp, or whatever the end game is. You could still continue doing what you were doing before. Let's use WoW as an example. Let's assume you like to solo quest and you do so until you hit 80. Well the game doesn't end there. You haven't seen all of the solo content yet. Take it from me, I didn't hit 3 of the Northrend zones when I hit lvl 80, so I still had A LOT of solo content left to do after I hit max level. Or say I like doing dungeons. There are plenty of lvl 80 5 man dungeons out there, and you can also do previous dungeons on heroic difficulty. If I'm a raider, then I have the least amount of content out of the other playstyles, but that content takes longer to complete. If I like PvP, there are BG's, Arena's, and Wintergrasp. If I'm the collector or socialite, there are many ways to collect social items and there are collections as well.
So the only thing I see wrong is your perspective.You perceive there to be an endgame, because you play enough to where you finish content before new content comes out. So instead of continuously advancing through the levels for the life of your subscription, you seek other ways to advance. In WoW's case, this is the gear grind. But this gear grind isn't something you have to do. You can do whatever activity you prefer to do and receive gear that is sufficient enough for that activity, so there's no reason to get wrapped up in the gear grind, which is really what people call the end game in WoW.
So to recap, @ lvl 80 in WoW, you can:
1.) Solo quest
2.) Participate in Live Events
3.) Get involved socially
4.) PvP
5.) Small group dungeons
6.) Large group dungeons (raids)
7.) Craft
8.) Collections
9.) Roleplay
I just named off 9 things that you could do after level 80 in WoW and all are worthwhile to do. So no one is forcing you to participate in the "endgame," you just choose to.
I personally find it lame that I have to be botherd with all the boring leveling to get to the endgame. If the endgame is supposed to be the best part, shouldnt it come on day one?
Prime example of opinion. He'd prefer to jump straight to the end content. I'm an avid gamer of the end content, but I also really enjoy the leveling experience that caries a change of scenary every few levels. I normally go to sleep with the same hue of colors burnt into my skull from spending countless hours in the same instance because it's the only one that provides the superior gear considered an upgrade. The sad thing is many mmo's have so much time and development into MULTIPLE instances that never get visited again because the loot is unuseful.
Maybe when a developer finds a creative, fun, and challenging way to revisit past content we'll start to have more scenary to visit. If you play WoW; let's be clear Nax is a terrible example of reusing content. Before the beta I excited to see this content again, and still get upgrades from visiting it again . . . BUT all it did was buy blizzard time to work on Uld . . . now the only reason I play the game. WoW is just my example, but currently all other games use the same formula so it's no different. We pay 14.99 per month to farm the same single instance 10-25 hours per week while thousands of hours worth of development in the rest of Azeroth rots.
Every other word in your posts is about loot. I consider MMO's to be a lot more than a means to grind for loot.
I think endgame is an excuse for not having a more rich game. Just ask anyone about WoW and they will tell you the same quote that has been uttered a billion times on the internet: "The real game in WoW starts at Level Cap". (TM) And so, 95% or so of the players just reroll when they cap because they don't have the time or desire to get into the raid grind. Most players who have been there any length of time have rerolled and maxed all of their toon slots. I honestly do not know what drives people do this. I capped a hunter in that game and I was done. The thought of rerolling made me throw up in my mouth a little. This question is only going to continue to grow as people get tired of the same old crap in theme park games. No, adding more quests (SWTOR) isn't going to fix the problem. I see WoW and that group of games as an entry level MMO. Once you get bored with that crap it's time to go find something a little deeper to play. Something with a community within the game. This is why there will be plenty of room for niche MMO's in the future. While games like WoW will still do well with new players and hardcore casual soloers, there will be more and more people who come out of those games wanting something more. Everyone around here likes to say that the sandbox game style is dead, but it clearly is not. There are certain people who will gravitate towards a sandbox, so the more that leave WoW and try one, the better for us all. Now we just need a decent sandbox game to play
I play WoW, so I think I qualify as anyone. I say the real game starts at level 1. It's where you're first introduced into what's happening around you. Leveling up is when you get to see a great variety of places and scenery. Your definition of WoW's endgame is grinding raids for gear. You think that's more fun than seeing different things every few levels? I don't, so I don't define the game as raiding. You may throw up the gear argument, but before you do, ask yourself if you actually need any of that gear to do what you actually like to do, whatever that is.
As for community; there's plenty of community in WoW. I consider a community a group of people who interact with each other. There's always something going on in the chat channels. There's always people willing to group up for 5 man dungeons. There's always people buying and selling goods to each other via the trade channel or AH. There's always people willing to raid, which takes a lot of interaction. There's always people looking to PvP with others, whether it be BG's, Wintergrasp, Arena's, or duels. Lastly, there are always people standing in certain towns and cities just chatting. If this all isn't community, I don't know what is. Let's take Pre-NGE SWG as a reference for community. In SWG, people bought and sold things, which WoW does too. People got together to explore and kills stuff to gain xp and other items, which you have that in WoW too. People in SWG also stood around in Cantina's, player cities, and various other places to just shoot the shit, which people do in WoW too. So how exactly does WoW not have a community?
Absolutely agree! End game, what a stupid concept since mmos are supposed to be living breathing worlds, has completely ruined the genre.
Well, gamers used to define MMORPG's that way, but that's our own fault. Nothing in the words MMORPG says that they are meant to be living breathing worlds, nor do they claim to have endless amount of content. What they do claim is that they are Massive, which they are; Multiplayer, which they are; Online, which they are; RPG's, which they are.
So since these are games and no one has officially claimed that you'll have endless bounds of content, then you should expect the game to end for the individual player sometime. I've learned that MMORPG's have enough fresh content, without repeating it, for around 3 months. That's a good amount of content and playing time. Some people can stretch it out 6months to a year, while others can blow through it sooner. The point being is that they do end, and to expect otherwise is foolish since there's nothing to say that they are supposed to be content limitless, except the fans.
Some endgames are better than others. As long as there's a variety of things to do, great. When people mention WOW is just raiding, I guess none of those people played EQ then, because THAT was just raiding. WOW has loads of different things to do, mentioned too many times to count. If you choose instead to just bury your head in the sand and go LA, LA, LA, its all raiding, Nah, nah, NAH...then you're just ignorant and can't be helped. WOW has about as much variety as any MMO ever made.
Some endgames are better than others. As long as there's a variety of things to do, great. When people mention WOW is just raiding, I guess none of those people played EQ then, because THAT was just raiding. WOW has loads of different things to do, mentioned too many times to count. If you choose instead to just bury your head in the sand and go LA, LA, LA, its all raiding, Nah, nah, NAH...then you're just ignorant and can't be helped. WOW has about as much variety as any MMO ever made.
I don't know about these guys But I never said anything about WoW only being about raiding. Hell I didnt even refer to WoW in my OP.
But since you guys have a hard on for WoW I will respond a bit.
It's true WoW isnt about raiding only. You also Instance pvp and farm dailies for cash. All three of these mechanics I brought up in my OP since a ton of MMOs do this.
Three Options isnt Variety. Other people like to toss in Crafting like they haven't been crafting from newb level in these games.
Crafting in these games isnt considered a Bait and switch.
Going from exploring New zones, learning new spells casually running a dungeon for kicks and Queuing up for a random BG to Gringing lock out timer dungeons for sets for months, running daily quests everyday and Farming honor and arena points all day is. You dont see a problem with that? A game playing one way then freaking turning into a souless Item grinder the next?
Its a big god damn bait and switch. the whole freaking game turns into something else.
If WoW or anyother MMO wanted to make an endgame with a heavy raid and instanced pvp grind as a focus why didnt they just start that shit from the beginning? Where are my epic raids at level 10? Where is my arena and BG ladder system at level 9,19,29, 39 .....ect. They dont do this because if they tossed people into the grind asap everyone would quit.
Instead they trick and scam your ass, they make wow into exploration, character advancement through abilities, casual dungeons and pvp mini games, Innocent world pvp just for fun then after you get to level cap they toss your ass head first its the hampster wheel cheese grinder. You go from all this freedom to following a asshat guild leader around like a slave or having to log in on a specific time every damn day or running the same stupid dailies every day for a stupid mount you dont even need!
Im sorry but WoW from 1-79 isnt even the same god damn game dude. The Bait and switch is almost criminal.
The sad part of it is All the other MMOs do this also.
I've always hated endgame content, I get tired of endless raiding, I detest PvP with a passion, every time I cap a character, I simply start over with a different one and I agree that after all the hard work to get someone to max level, there's really no kind of adequate reward once you get there.
There was a fantasy text-based MUD I played on many, many years ago where once you maxed your character, they gave you a fiefdom, somewhere that you were in charge of, you could build a castle (which most people did, text-based as it was), you could hire servants, you could get other lower-level characters to live on your land and work for you, etc. People staged raids on neighboring castles to enlarge their own areas, etc. Plus, the high-levels is where the majority of the roleplaying took place because it was the only place in the game where the players had direct control over the environment, at least in their own areas.
That kind of thing could be directly adapted for endgame play on most any MMO. Anarchy Online sort of has a simple version of it, organizations can build cities and make buildings, etc. Every month, the org has to pay "rent" on the city, I know ours pays about $65 million a month and that money comes from org member contributions primarily. Cities are open to raids, both by PCs and NPCs.
Once someone hits max level, they are given a small piece of land. They are given access to basic landscaping and building controls over the land. They can buy the components to build a castle or other structures and as time goes on, NPCs will move onto the land and start paying rent. Of course, they can also complain and there are a lot of opportunities to clear out monster infestations, etc. to keep your NPCs happy. Likely, well-run fiefdoms will attract other PCs and the maxed character can build an army to defend from or attack other fiefdoms. I'm sure there's got to be some control to keep one group from simply overrunning the entire game, perhaps the raw expense of keeping a ton of different properties going. Those who lose their properties can join other characters in other fiefdoms and work to win them back, etc.
There's a lot that can be done if MMOs want to do it, the problem is, most just don't care. They make their money by keeping people grinding to the top and restarting ad nauseum. I doubt any game out there has the guts to actually let players have control over any of the landscape, but certainly, I think they ought to. It would keep people from jumping games willy-nilly if they actually had something that was demonstrably theirs sitting in a gameworld.
Some endgames are better than others. As long as there's a variety of things to do, great. When people mention WOW is just raiding, I guess none of those people played EQ then, because THAT was just raiding. WOW has loads of different things to do, mentioned too many times to count. If you choose instead to just bury your head in the sand and go LA, LA, LA, its all raiding, Nah, nah, NAH...then you're just ignorant and can't be helped. WOW has about as much variety as any MMO ever made.
I don't know about these guys But I never said anything about WoW only being about raiding. Hell I didnt even refer to WoW in my OP.
But since you guys have a hard on for WoW I will respond a bit.
It's true WoW isnt about raiding only. You also Instance pvp and farm dailies for cash. All three of these mechanics I brought up in my OP since a ton of MMOs do this.
Three Options isnt Variety. Other people like to toss in Crafting like they haven't been crafting from newb level in these games.
Crafting in these games isnt considered a Bait and switch.
Going from exploring New zones, learning new spells casually running a dungeon for kicks and Queuing up for a random BG to Gringing lock out timer dungeons for sets for months, running daily quests everyday and Farming honor and arena points all day is. You dont see a problem with that? A game playing one way then freaking turning into a souless Item grinder the next?
Its a big god damn bait and switch. the whole freaking game turns into something else.
If WoW or anyother MMO wanted to make an endgame with a heavy raid and instanced pvp grind as a focus why didnt they just start that shit from the beginning? Where are my epic raids at level 10? Where is my arena and BG ladder system at level 9,19,29, 39 .....ect. They dont do this because if they tossed people into the grind asap everyone would quit.
Instead they trick and scam your ass, they make wow into exploration, character advancement through abilities, casual dungeons and pvp mini games, Innocent world pvp just for fun then after you get to level cap they toss your ass head first its the hampster wheel cheese grinder. You go from all this freedom to following a asshat guild leader around like a slave or having to log in on a specific time every damn day or running the same stupid dailies every day for a stupid mount you dont even need!
Im sorry but WoW from 1-79 isnt even the same god damn game dude. The Bait and switch is almost criminal.
The sad part of it is All the other MMOs do this also.
You want to get all pissy with people for bringing up WoW so much, but your OP sounded a lot like what people think WoW is. WoW is also an excellent reference point, because most people have played it, and it doesn't pull the bait and switch, although some people think it does.
There are 2 large zones in Northrend full of lvl 80 quests that you don't even get into until AFTER you hit lvl 80, if you did all the previous zones prior to it. Those 2 zones worth of content doesn't even include the other half of the mid range zone you didn't complete. I made it a point to do every single quest in Northrend, which is how I know this.
This is all relevant, because your OP is about end game. End game only exists once you hit max lvl in a game. In WoW, there's plenty of variety in what you can do after level 80, so there's no preset "end game." WoW is not a bait and switch if you can lvl up 1-80 off of solo quests and 5 man dungeons and then do solo quests and 5 man dungeons meant for lvl 80's once you reach max level. Raiding and PvPing is just other things you can do at lvl 80. In fact, that's not even a bait and switch, because BG's start at lvl 10, and raiding starts at lvl 60. So if you're playing all the content as it comes, you're only doing more of the same at lvl 80. So no bait and switch going on here. Which brings me back to my point. If you think there is a bait and switch in WoW, it's from your own doing, not Blizzards, because whatever it is you do at max level, you can do while leveling up.
So other than the reasons I already gave for using WoW as an example, I'll state another reason. WoW is the only game, in mine and most peoples opinion, that is even worth playing at the moment. Every other game is either incomplete, buggy, has a full team of newb developers, and/or has a low population to where you can't do a lot of the content. So if WoW is the best alternative, and it isn't a bait and switch game, to many, there is no reason to get upset over bait and switch in other MMO's that don't even matter.
Comments
Great post!
Yep im the Minority, the Bait and switch freaking owns my face in almost every MMO on the market.
If found ways around this in smaller mmos so im cool.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Pity people who think WOW starts at the lvl cap. The only people who think that are the dumb ones. No MMO should start at the end. MMOs should start the minute you log in, which was where WOW changed the mold.. It was fun on day 1 instead of day 150. As far as end game goes, content can't last forever. Its going to get repetitive eventually. It HAS TO end if theres actual content to consume. What bait and switch? Thinking a game shouldn't end is ignoranance at its best. Everything gets boring eventually.
I'm not surprised that people get bent over the transition from leveling to raiding. They are two rather different experiences after all. As was stated earlier, the appeal of game content is subjective, and finding people who enjoy both the leveling process as well as the raiding process (or any other end-game) is going to be more difficult than finding someone who enjoys just one or the other.
I think that MMOs are in a rather primitive stage of their design evolution where it is assumed that players will be entertained by leveling up a character - and then designers are trying to introduce things for players to do with those characters. That means "end-game" activities. Various games provide raids. Dark Age of Camelot had RvR. It's an abrupt transition that turns off some percentage of the population. Also, it annoys people who want to play the end game without having to level up a character.
I'm hoping that designers will abandon the level-then-something-else design philosophy and start with a fundamental activity that players can engage in with characters. Within that environment, have players pursue various achievement-oriented activities along with exploration, roleplaying, socializing, politics, econimics and so forth. None of it requires levels, which are the original sin of RPGs.
My poster child for this idea is always EVE Online. It is at least one design increment beyond the rest of the pack.
I personally hate the Bait and switch ( I want the same game all the way through). I guess what you're describing is the reverse which also sucks.
Whether you like the journey or the Grind at the end it should be that way from beginning to end and not change and become a totally different game.
this of course is my opinion and like I said im the minority.
I guess i am too. I find the leveling the fun part. Guess thats why i have so many toons in every game ive played.
IMO, you make end games less boring by letting the players control the content, as demonstrated firmly in EVE, and to a lesser extent, DAOC.
Give players a reason to build cities, and fight for them and reward them for controlling territory and you add immensely to the game.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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That sounds more fun to me....lol
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Absolutely agree! End game, what a stupid concept since mmos are supposed to be living breathing worlds, has completely ruined the genre.
I could not agree more. Basically almost every MMO does this. 1-50 solo and group up for a 5 or 6 man instance and boom, when you hit end game, all that is there is running the same missions 100's of times to compete for armor and weapon sets. Except now you must do it in 25-100 man raids. I know there are tons of people out there that enjoy that style but seriously, does almost every freaking MMO have to follow that concept? I have always been a firm believer of a single group should be able to do any content in the game but that is just my opinion.
I think the endgame problems that most MMO's have is due to a multitude of reasons. First and foremost being the devs dont know what they want for their game.To many MMO's are trying to spread themselves out to thin by trying to give everyone something. Personally I think that these devs need to focus more and make the game they want and not the game they hope everyone will like. We need more niche games in the market. Here are my thoughts on this.
Right up front, PVP or not PVP. Dont give us this mixed bag of crap. either make it full or none at all. Dueling has been a tried and true feature for a long time, lets leave it for the non pvp folks. On a side note, to this. A PVP server and NON pvp server are perfectly fine as long as they make absolutely sure that they keep the code seperate and never ever nerf something due to a PVP or a dueling problem on a non pvp server. I can not stress this part enough. There is nothing worse than to get nerfed into oblivion on a non PVP because some winey asshat on a PVP server is pissed because you do more damage than their class does or that your class pwns them everytime they meet. Preferably though, lets just leave it as a pvp or non pvp game. Less confusion and less frustration due to pvp imbalancing.
Content. This is absolutely one of the main problems in most MMO's today. Sure you have your 1-50 content, but what do you do after that. Well first we have to look at the 1-50. The gaining of levels, new abilities and new equipment. Well, the levels and abilities take care of themselves. Now we get to the heart of the matter. New equipment. Everyone wants that shiny sword of pwnage or that breastplate of desire! Here is where I feel most companies go absurdly wrong with their MMO's. This is where the lack of content really kicks in at level 50. Now how do we make people stay once they level to 50. oh I know, lets make dugeons so stupidly hard and then put in items with insane stats on them but only give them like 5% chance to drop. yeah, they will play for months just to try and get a full set of this armor. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
What they should do is a simple concept but would require a lot of work (lazy ass devs!). First, they need to give the ability for you to customize your armor. By that, I mean something like dyeing your armor. They need to have good colors in the game and lots of them and be easily obtainable. None of this rare color crap, Give it all up to everyone. This is the first step at making people happy with armor sets. Next, they need to provide LOTS of choices. This is where it gets harder. First off, why can't there be more swords of pwnage but with different stats. Why not have the meat cleaver of death have the same stats as the sword of pwnage?
They need to make stats on weapons be more random. They need to have multitudes of weapons and armors in the game, not just a few but hundreds if not thousands of differnt types. This has a few good side effects. First off, Now instead of raiding for that 5% chance at the uber gear, your normal group can go through the same dungeons (just like you would in a raid) except now your going more for look than stats. Now you have more of a reason to re run dungeons to get that specific look you want and have good stats at the same time. Sure you got the meatcleaver of death but it doesnt really go with your Ninja theme you have going. so now you are on a mission to find that wakasahi that would make your ensemble complete. And even after its complete, since the stats are randomized, you may find a better piece of armor or equipment and then decide, man this is an awesome looking battle axe. Maybe I should rethink my ensemble and look more like Conan. The ideas are endless when you have something like this. This is the big step in ridding the world of raids forever. Well, at least for this particular game.
And last but not least. Economy. This is a pet peeve of mine. I have always hated player run economies. This causes one of the worst banes of existance to mmo's in the form of gold farmers. You get rid of a player run economy, you get rid of the gold farmers, for the most part. To make this work, you have to get rid of player trading. Well, you dont have to get rid of it, you just have to rethink it. I know player trading is a big social part of the game but there do have to be sacrifices and this is the big one. Instead of allowing players to trade amongst themselves, they need to set up brokers. unlike the auction houses in todays games, these brokers would have set limits on how much any item in the game is worth to them. Again more work on the devs part. But this gets rid of many things that irritate me about mmo's. I am all for a person to make a profit on their investments but there needs to be strict limits on how much profit one can make. Simply because everyone should be able to afford the item they want without having to backstab your team because you know that meatcleaver of death is worth billions on the market. In this scenario its only worth a few hundred. This allows people to play the game without worry of if they are going to be able to afford their next armor or weapon upgrades. Whats to keep people from just selling the items to vendors instead? Simple, you make the items worth MUCH less to sell to a crappy vendor.
Same goes with crafting. I have always found it ironic that crafters feel their time is worth 5x to 10x more valueable than the adventures time. Crafting has to change. The biggest reason folks craft in todays games is to get filthy rich. Not because they enjoy being a wood worker and can make some nice stuff and be able to sell it for a profit, they dont care for a reasonable profit, they want to be stinking rich and they dont care who they screw over to get it. If you want to be a merchant that is all fine and good. There is no reason why merchants cant make a nice living crafting and selling their wares. It just shouldn't be so disproportionate of what adventures make.
Well this has been long enough, so I will end with this. The above are just the first steps to making end game more fun for those of us that dont care about getting in a 100 man raid for the 5% chance at an item. Now if only the devs would rethink trying to be a wow killer and get back to making good unique games.
I direct you to Planet Side. yes, people have said EVE before, which is a great example. but planetside has no endgame, its just a MMOFPS (with a dash of RPG).
from day one you are trying to take over bases and win the war, and on day 1000 if its your thing, you will still be loving it. eventually you will hit the level cap, but it just means you have more options, not that anything changes.
WTB Planetside 2
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Yes, but it's for a logical reason. MMO's have a huge audience. If they focus on the high end content heavily they can't get as much done for the mid to low levels. Consequently most people in MMORPG games are mid levels and are not power gamers...this means they are focusing on the bulk of their target market. Is it ethical? Not really, but at least you see some games creating things for the upper echelon to do such as impossible raids and PvP with points systems.
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I have always been disappointed with every endgame, but not necessarily because of design reasons, but because the journey is nearing its end, and any further gameplay is just a replay over a well-travelled path.
But, fortunately, I am a re-roller (i.e., I create new toons, run them to level 30 or so, roll a new toon and repeat), so often the upper half of a game is always a mystery to me and still provides the fun.
Why I hate levels
Interesting timing of this post. Op thank you for bringing this up. Recently having reached near cap in my current mmorpg. I went on my first high end raid group. Instructions were must have voice chat enabled. The raid leader did play by play of each hard node and gave strict compliance orders which how each boss was to be managed. We were divided into group 1 2 and 3. If one did not pay attention to voice instructions they were yelled at through voice during the raid. If lag occurred or blinding flashes of light getting disoriented a moment during play occurred one was also yelled at. Ninja looting was the rule of the day. If you were busy doing your job helping keep group alive by the time you did your thing the loot was gone.
In the end I just received a HUGE repair bill for several hours’ worth of intense game play. I sat there afterwards, going I went to Disney world all I got was this bad t shirt. Except I did not even get a t shirt just a huge re pair bill……..
Although I would encourage every player to try the big raid at least once. Never ever expect anything for the effort and the randomness of the /roll usually works in someone else’s favor.
To me the end game in my current mmorpg is just not worth the time effort and expense of ever trying it again.
Time to work on an alt or take a break /wave
Yes i usually get one toon to level cap and do the same as you do. I played WOW for a year or so with a guy that only one time i know of got a toon high enough to get a mount. You didnt play WOW on hellscream did you?
:)
Zoey, you need a better guild.
Anyway The only MMO I did any end game raid was WoW, and this was back when MC/BWL/Nax was end game... Pre-TBC
My only issue, was the fact you have to keep running one raid until you have gear to run the next....
When I 1st went to MC it was just for fun... but after awhile it became I need gear to do BWL...
When raiding become a job is when I stop, raiding.... never got to see past Vael in BWL, pre-tbc... never did anything past Kara in TBC.
The two games that I played the longest (FFXI and AO) are the only two games I have ever played where I never hit max level. Kind of funny how that works. Played AO for 3+ years and FFXI for over 3 years. Capped out in WoW in a month and only played for about 2 months after that. Same with EQ2. Same with Warhammer. I guess im one of those old school types that didn't so much enjoy the "grind" of the older games but enjoyed leveling feeling more like a journey unstead of a quick trip around the block.
Frankly I think being able to hit max level in a month is insane but I understand why companies do it. Anytime a new game releases you will find a ton of "How long to max lvl??!!?" posts in the forums around here. Gamers are just so impatient these days.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Well FFXI and AO are extremely hardcore when it comes to leveling imo.
If you dont know what you're doing you can be leveling for a long ass time.
Personally I like it and wish more MMOs were like that.
I'm currently playing Ryzom (along with Eve) and this god damn game takes forever to level in.
Im a casual player when it comes to my second mmo and since August ive only managed to level 35% to skill cap (for 2h weps alone lol) in all that time.
I enjoy it so much more then the "level to endgame in three weeks" crap.
Games like AO, FFXI and Ryzom are a Dying breed my friend.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Well, if we can agree that there isn't a game out there that has enough content to keep people busy indefinitely, then I have something to say.
You don't have to raid, pvp, or whatever the end game is. You could still continue doing what you were doing before. Let's use WoW as an example. Let's assume you like to solo quest and you do so until you hit 80. Well the game doesn't end there. You haven't seen all of the solo content yet. Take it from me, I didn't hit 3 of the Northrend zones when I hit lvl 80, so I still had A LOT of solo content left to do after I hit max level. Or say I like doing dungeons. There are plenty of lvl 80 5 man dungeons out there, and you can also do previous dungeons on heroic difficulty. If I'm a raider, then I have the least amount of content out of the other playstyles, but that content takes longer to complete. If I like PvP, there are BG's, Arena's, and Wintergrasp. If I'm the collector or socialite, there are many ways to collect social items and there are collections as well.
So the only thing I see wrong is your perspective.You perceive there to be an endgame, because you play enough to where you finish content before new content comes out. So instead of continuously advancing through the levels for the life of your subscription, you seek other ways to advance. In WoW's case, this is the gear grind. But this gear grind isn't something you have to do. You can do whatever activity you prefer to do and receive gear that is sufficient enough for that activity, so there's no reason to get wrapped up in the gear grind, which is really what people call the end game in WoW.
So to recap, @ lvl 80 in WoW, you can:
1.) Solo quest
2.) Participate in Live Events
3.) Get involved socially
4.) PvP
5.) Small group dungeons
6.) Large group dungeons (raids)
7.) Craft
8.) Collections
9.) Roleplay
I just named off 9 things that you could do after level 80 in WoW and all are worthwhile to do. So no one is forcing you to participate in the "endgame," you just choose to.
Prime example of opinion. He'd prefer to jump straight to the end content. I'm an avid gamer of the end content, but I also really enjoy the leveling experience that caries a change of scenary every few levels. I normally go to sleep with the same hue of colors burnt into my skull from spending countless hours in the same instance because it's the only one that provides the superior gear considered an upgrade. The sad thing is many mmo's have so much time and development into MULTIPLE instances that never get visited again because the loot is unuseful.
Maybe when a developer finds a creative, fun, and challenging way to revisit past content we'll start to have more scenary to visit. If you play WoW; let's be clear Nax is a terrible example of reusing content. Before the beta I excited to see this content again, and still get upgrades from visiting it again . . . BUT all it did was buy blizzard time to work on Uld . . . now the only reason I play the game. WoW is just my example, but currently all other games use the same formula so it's no different. We pay 14.99 per month to farm the same single instance 10-25 hours per week while thousands of hours worth of development in the rest of Azeroth rots.
Every other word in your posts is about loot. I consider MMO's to be a lot more than a means to grind for loot.
I play WoW, so I think I qualify as anyone. I say the real game starts at level 1. It's where you're first introduced into what's happening around you. Leveling up is when you get to see a great variety of places and scenery. Your definition of WoW's endgame is grinding raids for gear. You think that's more fun than seeing different things every few levels? I don't, so I don't define the game as raiding. You may throw up the gear argument, but before you do, ask yourself if you actually need any of that gear to do what you actually like to do, whatever that is.
As for community; there's plenty of community in WoW. I consider a community a group of people who interact with each other. There's always something going on in the chat channels. There's always people willing to group up for 5 man dungeons. There's always people buying and selling goods to each other via the trade channel or AH. There's always people willing to raid, which takes a lot of interaction. There's always people looking to PvP with others, whether it be BG's, Wintergrasp, Arena's, or duels. Lastly, there are always people standing in certain towns and cities just chatting. If this all isn't community, I don't know what is. Let's take Pre-NGE SWG as a reference for community. In SWG, people bought and sold things, which WoW does too. People got together to explore and kills stuff to gain xp and other items, which you have that in WoW too. People in SWG also stood around in Cantina's, player cities, and various other places to just shoot the shit, which people do in WoW too. So how exactly does WoW not have a community?
Well, gamers used to define MMORPG's that way, but that's our own fault. Nothing in the words MMORPG says that they are meant to be living breathing worlds, nor do they claim to have endless amount of content. What they do claim is that they are Massive, which they are; Multiplayer, which they are; Online, which they are; RPG's, which they are.
So since these are games and no one has officially claimed that you'll have endless bounds of content, then you should expect the game to end for the individual player sometime. I've learned that MMORPG's have enough fresh content, without repeating it, for around 3 months. That's a good amount of content and playing time. Some people can stretch it out 6months to a year, while others can blow through it sooner. The point being is that they do end, and to expect otherwise is foolish since there's nothing to say that they are supposed to be content limitless, except the fans.
Some endgames are better than others. As long as there's a variety of things to do, great. When people mention WOW is just raiding, I guess none of those people played EQ then, because THAT was just raiding. WOW has loads of different things to do, mentioned too many times to count. If you choose instead to just bury your head in the sand and go LA, LA, LA, its all raiding, Nah, nah, NAH...then you're just ignorant and can't be helped. WOW has about as much variety as any MMO ever made.
I don't know about these guys But I never said anything about WoW only being about raiding. Hell I didnt even refer to WoW in my OP.
But since you guys have a hard on for WoW I will respond a bit.
It's true WoW isnt about raiding only. You also Instance pvp and farm dailies for cash. All three of these mechanics I brought up in my OP since a ton of MMOs do this.
Three Options isnt Variety. Other people like to toss in Crafting like they haven't been crafting from newb level in these games.
Crafting in these games isnt considered a Bait and switch.
Going from exploring New zones, learning new spells casually running a dungeon for kicks and Queuing up for a random BG to Gringing lock out timer dungeons for sets for months, running daily quests everyday and Farming honor and arena points all day is. You dont see a problem with that? A game playing one way then freaking turning into a souless Item grinder the next?
Its a big god damn bait and switch. the whole freaking game turns into something else.
If WoW or anyother MMO wanted to make an endgame with a heavy raid and instanced pvp grind as a focus why didnt they just start that shit from the beginning? Where are my epic raids at level 10? Where is my arena and BG ladder system at level 9,19,29, 39 .....ect. They dont do this because if they tossed people into the grind asap everyone would quit.
Instead they trick and scam your ass, they make wow into exploration, character advancement through abilities, casual dungeons and pvp mini games, Innocent world pvp just for fun then after you get to level cap they toss your ass head first its the hampster wheel cheese grinder. You go from all this freedom to following a asshat guild leader around like a slave or having to log in on a specific time every damn day or running the same stupid dailies every day for a stupid mount you dont even need!
Im sorry but WoW from 1-79 isnt even the same god damn game dude. The Bait and switch is almost criminal.
The sad part of it is All the other MMOs do this also.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
I've always hated endgame content, I get tired of endless raiding, I detest PvP with a passion, every time I cap a character, I simply start over with a different one and I agree that after all the hard work to get someone to max level, there's really no kind of adequate reward once you get there.
There was a fantasy text-based MUD I played on many, many years ago where once you maxed your character, they gave you a fiefdom, somewhere that you were in charge of, you could build a castle (which most people did, text-based as it was), you could hire servants, you could get other lower-level characters to live on your land and work for you, etc. People staged raids on neighboring castles to enlarge their own areas, etc. Plus, the high-levels is where the majority of the roleplaying took place because it was the only place in the game where the players had direct control over the environment, at least in their own areas.
That kind of thing could be directly adapted for endgame play on most any MMO. Anarchy Online sort of has a simple version of it, organizations can build cities and make buildings, etc. Every month, the org has to pay "rent" on the city, I know ours pays about $65 million a month and that money comes from org member contributions primarily. Cities are open to raids, both by PCs and NPCs.
Once someone hits max level, they are given a small piece of land. They are given access to basic landscaping and building controls over the land. They can buy the components to build a castle or other structures and as time goes on, NPCs will move onto the land and start paying rent. Of course, they can also complain and there are a lot of opportunities to clear out monster infestations, etc. to keep your NPCs happy. Likely, well-run fiefdoms will attract other PCs and the maxed character can build an army to defend from or attack other fiefdoms. I'm sure there's got to be some control to keep one group from simply overrunning the entire game, perhaps the raw expense of keeping a ton of different properties going. Those who lose their properties can join other characters in other fiefdoms and work to win them back, etc.
There's a lot that can be done if MMOs want to do it, the problem is, most just don't care. They make their money by keeping people grinding to the top and restarting ad nauseum. I doubt any game out there has the guts to actually let players have control over any of the landscape, but certainly, I think they ought to. It would keep people from jumping games willy-nilly if they actually had something that was demonstrably theirs sitting in a gameworld.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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I don't know about these guys But I never said anything about WoW only being about raiding. Hell I didnt even refer to WoW in my OP.
But since you guys have a hard on for WoW I will respond a bit.
It's true WoW isnt about raiding only. You also Instance pvp and farm dailies for cash. All three of these mechanics I brought up in my OP since a ton of MMOs do this.
Three Options isnt Variety. Other people like to toss in Crafting like they haven't been crafting from newb level in these games.
Crafting in these games isnt considered a Bait and switch.
Going from exploring New zones, learning new spells casually running a dungeon for kicks and Queuing up for a random BG to Gringing lock out timer dungeons for sets for months, running daily quests everyday and Farming honor and arena points all day is. You dont see a problem with that? A game playing one way then freaking turning into a souless Item grinder the next?
Its a big god damn bait and switch. the whole freaking game turns into something else.
If WoW or anyother MMO wanted to make an endgame with a heavy raid and instanced pvp grind as a focus why didnt they just start that shit from the beginning? Where are my epic raids at level 10? Where is my arena and BG ladder system at level 9,19,29, 39 .....ect. They dont do this because if they tossed people into the grind asap everyone would quit.
Instead they trick and scam your ass, they make wow into exploration, character advancement through abilities, casual dungeons and pvp mini games, Innocent world pvp just for fun then after you get to level cap they toss your ass head first its the hampster wheel cheese grinder. You go from all this freedom to following a asshat guild leader around like a slave or having to log in on a specific time every damn day or running the same stupid dailies every day for a stupid mount you dont even need!
Im sorry but WoW from 1-79 isnt even the same god damn game dude. The Bait and switch is almost criminal.
The sad part of it is All the other MMOs do this also.
You want to get all pissy with people for bringing up WoW so much, but your OP sounded a lot like what people think WoW is. WoW is also an excellent reference point, because most people have played it, and it doesn't pull the bait and switch, although some people think it does.
There are 2 large zones in Northrend full of lvl 80 quests that you don't even get into until AFTER you hit lvl 80, if you did all the previous zones prior to it. Those 2 zones worth of content doesn't even include the other half of the mid range zone you didn't complete. I made it a point to do every single quest in Northrend, which is how I know this.
This is all relevant, because your OP is about end game. End game only exists once you hit max lvl in a game. In WoW, there's plenty of variety in what you can do after level 80, so there's no preset "end game." WoW is not a bait and switch if you can lvl up 1-80 off of solo quests and 5 man dungeons and then do solo quests and 5 man dungeons meant for lvl 80's once you reach max level. Raiding and PvPing is just other things you can do at lvl 80. In fact, that's not even a bait and switch, because BG's start at lvl 10, and raiding starts at lvl 60. So if you're playing all the content as it comes, you're only doing more of the same at lvl 80. So no bait and switch going on here. Which brings me back to my point. If you think there is a bait and switch in WoW, it's from your own doing, not Blizzards, because whatever it is you do at max level, you can do while leveling up.
So other than the reasons I already gave for using WoW as an example, I'll state another reason. WoW is the only game, in mine and most peoples opinion, that is even worth playing at the moment. Every other game is either incomplete, buggy, has a full team of newb developers, and/or has a low population to where you can't do a lot of the content. So if WoW is the best alternative, and it isn't a bait and switch game, to many, there is no reason to get upset over bait and switch in other MMO's that don't even matter.