In my opinion the thrill of playing the game has been overshadowed by those who only seek the End Game. Those who do yell louder and complain more which is why it happens. What made EQ fun? Playing it for hours and hours, slowly working your character up, interacting and playing with others, exploring new places, and so on. Seems that many, not all games, out there are concerned more about the end game then the actual game experience itself. I won't name names, but one recent game i played, it took me about 2 months to max out my character! I'm not a hardcore player, I explored as much of the areas as I could, I even devoted a lot of time to crafting and exploration and helping out guild members....but even with all that, it took 2 months to get max level. I played EQ for 3 or 4 years, and only maxed out 2 characters. Why did it only take 2 months? Cause the game was built on End Game PVP...period...it was as if everything else was just an after thought, even though there could have been so much more done. Ok, fine, that's the way they build it..I played and moved on...not a game for me but apparently it is for many.
Several MMO's these days are all taking PVP...good, I like PVP...but the point of an MMORPG is not to max out your char in 2 months and then just run around killing. That's what FPS are for. IMO...MMORPG's are for experiencing a new world, building a character you can be proud of, showing off your trophies (whether its through a house, armor, or weapons), and meeting new people and making memorable gaming experiences; and if killing a few spammers, spawn campers, and moronic people along the way happens...well that's fun too. Still this day...I remember many moments in EQ that will remain classic memories...from chasing (or being chased by) Giants in the desert to falling asleep at my keyboard waiting for the archeologist to spawn...sure it was a pain, but it made the game worthwhile.
IMO...forget the end game...focus on the GAME...if people want to rush through just to be the first to hit level X...good for them...congrats....that's just the way they play...but don't let it spoil the experience for the rest of the people who want to say "Hey, what's that over...."...Loading...Please Wait.
I despise the current trend to focus on the raiding paradigm for end game. I'll be happy camper when they do away with this lazy assed way to program content. Keep your eye on Star Wars The Old Republic. It will be the first AAA MMO to not do any raiding at all. I'm curious to see how it might change the genre for the better.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I despise the current trend to focus on the raiding paradigm for end game. I'll be happy camper when they do away with this lazy assed way to program content. Keep your eye on Star Wars The Old Republic. It will be the first AAA MMO to not do any raiding at all. I'm curious to see how it might change the genre for the better. Do you have a confirmed source on that?
Frankly, I love the idea of not having raids + uber items. It's about time that games veered back towards providing a fun gaming experience rather than a flawed virtual arena for nerds to prove their uberness with progressively imbalancing equipment. Core gameplay > Loot!
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I despise the current trend to focus on the raiding paradigm for end game. I'll be happy camper when they do away with this lazy assed way to program content. Keep your eye on Star Wars The Old Republic. It will be the first AAA MMO to not do any raiding at all. I'm curious to see how it might change the genre for the better.
I agree. And it's hard to enjoy *any* style MMO if most of the players are on completey focused on getting to level cap as soon as possible. Your mileage may vary, but on my WoW server, there wasn't much socializing or non-quest related adventuring going on at all. To do so, people would have to ((GASP)) stop power-questing long enough to enjoy a few distractions. I experienced the same problem in Lotro, although to a much lesser degree.
I don't hold out any hope for SWTOR. It's just another glorified theme-park from what they are saying about it, and I'm turned off at the idea of having henchmen too. It's going to be a solofest and even though it will have a lot more quests than usual, it sounds like that is pretty much all it will have. I'm keeping an eye on it, but henchmen?? Really? What is this Guild Wars?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
In my opinion the thrill of playing the game has been overshadowed by those who only seek the End Game. Those who do yell louder and complain more which is why it happens. What made EQ fun? Playing it for hours and hours, slowly working your character up, interacting and playing with others, exploring new places, and so on. Seems that many, not all games, out there are concerned more about the end game then the actual game experience itself. I won't name names, but one recent game i played, it took me about 2 months to max out my character! I'm not a hardcore player, I explored as much of the areas as I could, I even devoted a lot of time to crafting and exploration and helping out guild members....but even with all that, it took 2 months to get max level. I played EQ for 3 or 4 years, and only maxed out 2 characters. Why did it only take 2 months? Cause the game was built on End Game PVP...period...it was as if everything else was just an after thought, even though there could have been so much more done. Ok, fine, that's the way they build it..I played and moved on...not a game for me but apparently it is for many. Several MMO's these days are all taking PVP...good, I like PVP...but the point of an MMORPG is not to max out your char in 2 months and then just run around killing. That's what FPS are for. IMO...MMORPG's are for experiencing a new world, building a character you can be proud of, showing off your trophies (whether its through a house, armor, or weapons), and meeting new people and making memorable gaming experiences; and if killing a few spammers, spawn campers, and moronic people along the way happens...well that's fun too. Still this day...I remember many moments in EQ that will remain classic memories...from chasing (or being chased by) Giants in the desert to falling asleep at my keyboard waiting for the archeologist to spawn...sure it was a pain, but it made the game worthwhile. IMO...forget the end game...focus on the GAME...if people want to rush through just to be the first to hit level X...good for them...congrats....that's just the way they play...but don't let it spoil the experience for the rest of the people who want to say "Hey, what's that over...."...Loading...Please Wait.
I agree... more truth here. You can't blame the game for how you choose to play it. If you become consumed with having the best gear and you want to run the same dungeons hundreds of times to do it.. then that's on you. I've found out that if you know how to play the game you can get through dungeons without having top lvl gear in every single slot. I've played games with people who are obssessed with that and they end up ruining their own game experience. A game is what you make of it or don't make of it.. the choice is yours.
MMORPG played in order played: Sims Online, WoW, CoX, EQ2, LinksRealm, LOTRO,TOR...and counting
I despise the current trend to focus on the raiding paradigm for end game. I'll be happy camper when they do away with this lazy assed way to program content. Keep your eye on Star Wars The Old Republic. It will be the first AAA MMO to not do any raiding at all. I'm curious to see how it might change the genre for the better. Do you have a confirmed source on that?
Frankly, I love the idea of not having raids + uber items. It's about time that games veered back towards providing a fun gaming experience rather than a flawed virtual arena for nerds to prove their uberness with progressively imbalancing equipment. Core gameplay > Loot!
Ilvaldyr
IIRC I saw this somewhere in one of the interviews saying that group content is limit to 6 players... no raids.
God I love it, your telling me WoW has no Bait and switch because it has two quests zones at 80 lol. Then you go off and list Heroic dungeons as a non-bait and switch mechanic? last time I checked while I leveled in WoW I didnt have to farm razorfen Kraul 150 times for tokens for pants!!!!! Have a nice day.
Edit: forgot to quote, you know who u are.
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
God I love it, your telling me WoW has no Bait and switch because it has two quests zones at 80 lol. Then you go off and list Heroic dungeons as a non-bait and switch mechanic? last time I checked while I leveled in WoW I didnt have to farm razorfen Kraul 150 times for tokens for pants!!!!! Have a nice day.
Edit: forgot to quote, you know who u are.
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
They changed the entire game.
Well that's one thing we have in common then; we both value character progression/development over all else.
That leaves me with more questions though:
What is your solution to this problem? You can't very well be implying that the game have infinite levels, abilities, and talent points can you? You do realize that if there are infinite levels, then newbs will never catch up to the veteran players, right? There isn't an unlimited well of potential subscribers, so eventually people will join the game and find out that everyone is between lvls 200-2000. This would leave those who started after launch with a feeling of hopelessness and will end up quitting the game if they're into competitive gameplay.
Seriously, you would think farming the same zone over and over would be fun, and farming players for Honor / AP would be fun too.
Actually, every MMO out there is boring. The exp thing is just a grind so you dont notice the endgame sucks. Anyway, once you get to the end you realize it's all farming. Any decent MMO has a good endgame. If an MMO is good it will have politics, competition, etc. involved at the end-game level. Without that, it's mindless and boring farming. There's no competition in todays MMOs so obviously they will all be boring..
The only interesting end-game MMO was EQ on the Zek based servers, there was lots of competition over NPC spawns. On a blue server, I guess it would be boring because you just rotate them. On a real server, you try to prevent other people from raiding the content, which is very fun. Too bad its gone from these pussy MMOs
God I love it, your telling me WoW has no Bait and switch because it has two quests zones at 80 lol. Then you go off and list Heroic dungeons as a non-bait and switch mechanic? last time I checked while I leveled in WoW I didnt have to farm razorfen Kraul 150 times for tokens for pants!!!!! Have a nice day.
Edit: forgot to quote, you know who u are.
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
They changed the entire game.
Well that's one thing we have in common then; we both value character progression/development over all else.
That leaves me with more questions though:
What is your solution to this problem? You can't very well be implying that the game have infinite levels, abilities, and talent points can you? You do realize that if there are infinite levels, then newbs will never catch up to the veteran players, right? There isn't an unlimited well of potential subscribers, so eventually people will join the game and find out that everyone is between lvls 200-2000. This would leave those who started after launch with a feeling of hopelessness and will end up quitting the game if they're into competitive gameplay.
You do realize that games already do this right? In guild wars Each class has like 200 spells but can only use a certain amount at any given time. In ryzom there is no skill cap, You can have 20 masteries, last I heard there were 10,000 levels in Ryzom. How does that game keep newbs competitve? Well in Ryzom you can't do everything in one type of armor. Doesnt matter if your a Master in 2h swords, guns and affliction magic because you cant cast shit while wearing heavy armor and guns work better with medium armor and you would die too fast if You melee in Light armor. So a guy in 20+ masteries is just as competitve as a guy with only one or two masteries.
In Eve someone could have 100 million SP and still get destroyed by a 10 million isk pilot bcause you can put only so many skill points into one particular ship/playstyle.
So how would I do this in WoW? or any of the other story driven MMO? Lets say i have a level 80 in WoW. I would keep letting the player gain XP and every level after 80 I would give the player 1 skill point. I would also toss spells as quest and achievement rewards. But heres the kicker How will we keep older players from being OP compared to fresh level 80s? Limit the amount of spells and abilities a player can use at any given time. after 80 let players gain access to a new 8 slot action bar. an 8 slot bar that could only hold these extra spells that you gain after you ding 80. Hell you could collect hundreds of spells and keep progressing but you would have to set your speicial bar up before you left a city.
Also keep in mind the leveling you would be doing after 80 would only be for skill points not actual attribute increases, if you allow attribute increases then shit would get out of hand. blizzard would be able to design more talent trees, new spells and new quests and areas that give players both XP and abilities. the game would always be about explortation and not just a dungeon or instanced pvp grind.
You guys act like infinite levels are the answer, it's not...
Infinite levels can be boring, look at the AA system in EQ.. Do you think people like farming AA? No, its boring and grinding. Do you think people like farming honor or arena points in WoW? No, its boring.
Games need competition to be interesting in the endgame, not more levels or whatever. (read this twice, idiot game companies)
The only way the endgame would be interesting if it was infinite would be if the new content was ALWAYS original and difficult. They can't really do that yet.
You guys act like infinite levels are the answer, it's not... Infinite levels can be boring, look at the AA system in EQ.. Do you think people like farming AA? No, its boring and grinding. Do you think people like farming honor or arena points in WoW? No, its boring. Games need competition to be interesting in the endgame, not more levels or whatever. (read this twice, idiot game companies) The only way the endgame would be interesting if it was infinite would be if the new content was ALWAYS original and difficult. They can't really do that yet.
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
You guys act like infinite levels are the answer, it's not... Infinite levels can be boring, look at the AA system in EQ.. Do you think people like farming AA? No, its boring and grinding. Do you think people like farming honor or arena points in WoW? No, its boring. Games need competition to be interesting in the endgame, not more levels or whatever. (read this twice, idiot game companies) The only way the endgame would be interesting if it was infinite would be if the new content was ALWAYS original and difficult. They can't really do that yet.
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
Todays MMOs are so messed up.
EQ on Sullon Zek server. People fought each other all day just to control zones so they could raid content.
I don't know about the whole questing thing, it seems like questing is all hand-holding and it's run-around bullshit that wastes time. I say just throw in loot on insanely difficult NPCs and let the players figure out what they want to do.
I also find the loot system retarded in most MMOs anymore. Look at WoW, everyone wears the same shit, and everyone looks the same, and everyone can get any item because the contents do damn trivial. There was a point in my MMO history when I would see a player and be impressed when I saw their gear. When 1000000 people have it, it's just not impressive.
They need to ramp of the difficulty, I understand high school / college kids arent too smart, but this is just pathetic. Put in some insanely difficult content already. That is always fun, because then you have something to work toward.
You guys act like infinite levels are the answer, it's not... Infinite levels can be boring, look at the AA system in EQ.. Do you think people like farming AA? No, its boring and grinding. Do you think people like farming honor or arena points in WoW? No, its boring. Games need competition to be interesting in the endgame, not more levels or whatever. (read this twice, idiot game companies) The only way the endgame would be interesting if it was infinite would be if the new content was ALWAYS original and difficult. They can't really do that yet.
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
Todays MMOs are so messed up.
EQ on Sullon Zek server. People fought each other all day just to control zones so they could raid content.
I don't know about the whole questing thing, it seems like questing is all hand-holding and it's run-around bullshit that wastes time. I say just throw in loot on insanely difficult NPCs and let the players figure out what they want to do.
I also find the loot system retarded in most MMOs anymore. Look at WoW, everyone wears the same shit, and everyone looks the same, and everyone can get any item because the contents do damn trivial. There was a point in my MMO history when I would see a player and be impressed when I saw their gear. When 1000000 people have it, it's just not impressive.
They need to ramp of the difficulty, I understand high school / college kids arent too smart, but this is just pathetic. Put in some insanely difficult content already. That is always fun, because then you have something to work toward.
Sorry man the days of old EQ hardcore pvp servers are over.
Hell all you guys did was rip eachother apart all day lol.
Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.
Just do what you want. I make up my own quests and complete them at leisure. Just because many players feel the need to beat the game, doesn't mean you have to feel obligated to help them. I leveled slowly because I know that the endgame that alot of games put forth for players is not really what I enjoy. I take my time leveling, and once I finally hit the level cap, I can do more of what I enjoy, which is helping guild members out, exploring, farming, and making money. All of the quests I give myself do all of that.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Just do what you want. I make up my own quests and complete them at leisure. Just because many players feel the need to beat the game, doesn't mean you have to feel obligated to help them. I leveled slowly because I know that the endgame that alot of games put forth for players is not really what I enjoy. I take my time leveling, and once I finally hit the level cap, I can do more of what I enjoy, which is helping guild members out, exploring, farming, and making money. All of the quests I give myself do all of that.
Man, the quests in WoW are so damn pointless. Really, they give you rewards and shit, but WTF? WoW is such a damn hand-holding game the quests arent fun. Oh, want to find where to do some quests? DL some addons and it shows oyu the location of everything, thats how people grind so fast anymore. There is no skill left in the current MMORPGs, so I don't see how doing anything at your own leisure is fun. Everything is a grind of trivial content in WoW.
A real MMO is one where you don't have any idea what the world looks like, one that is really dangerous, and does not hold anyones hand. How can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW? It's too newbie friendly. I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.
Just do what you want. I make up my own quests and complete them at leisure. Just because many players feel the need to beat the game, doesn't mean you have to feel obligated to help them. I leveled slowly because I know that the endgame that alot of games put forth for players is not really what I enjoy. I take my time leveling, and once I finally hit the level cap, I can do more of what I enjoy, which is helping guild members out, exploring, farming, and making money. All of the quests I give myself do all of that.
Palebane you sound like you would be a better Sandbox mmo guy.
Making your own quests? Exploration? Farming? dude try Ryzom.
ow can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW? It's too newbie friendly. I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.
Thatis not the problem of being newbie friendly, someone is not a newbie 5 levels under cap. A game should have a good experience for the new players, and then turn more and more challenging.
As for the endgame in MMOs I agree. Maybe a game without levels or for that matter levelcaps would be more intresting (yeah I never played Eve) for once you reach max level and done some raiding and possibly sieging it gets boring fast.
A MMO is supposed to be without an end, but you have to grind the same things without getting so much for it in the endgame. There should be a way to make things more intresting, characters should continue to grow as long as you play them, even if the pace get's slower and slower.
ow can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW? It's too newbie friendly. I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.
Thatis not the problem of being newbie friendly, someone is not a newbie 5 levels under cap. A game should have a good experience for the new players, and then turn more and more challenging.
As for the endgame in MMOs I agree. Maybe a game without levels or for that matter levelcaps would be more intresting (yeah I never played Eve) for once you reach max level and done some raiding and possibly sieging it gets boring fast.
A MMO is supposed to be without an end, but you have to grind the same things without getting so much for it in the endgame. There should be a way to make things more intresting, characters should continue to grow as long as you play them, even if the pace get's slower and slower.
I dunno about being newbie friendly. When I played my first MMO, they gave me a rusty club and a real cheap tunic. That is all there was. Want to figure something out? You have to ask other players. When things are too newbie friendly they reveal too much about the game and make things too obvious & predictable.
I don't think MMOs should have diminishing returns, rather they should allow you to keep advancing. They can just make the content extremely difficult. Some guilds will be able to go far, some won't be able to do shit. But that is the challenge of MMOs. I think the problem with WoW is too many guilds are able to do the end-game content now. There was a time in WoWs history when people couldn't do MC. My guild was in AQ40 trying to do twin emps and other guilds were stuck on MC trash mobs.
Now everyone can do just about anything in the game. And the PvP system is so horrible you can find 2 newbies with a certain class combo and they will be top ranked.. God its horrible
Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.
It needs balance. There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover. If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas. You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.
I hate leveling. Ever since i started eve i find it hard to play any level based games because i am just not lured by the carrot on a stick mechanic that is leveling, like i used to be. TBH i would perfer a game that starts you off at the end game, so half of the content in the game isn't obsolete when you reach that max level like in level based games. It's one of the reasons why i look forward to the secret world.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
The problem for some people is ... Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this. Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit? Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles? Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options. That's the problem
Holy crap, crafting items! I never knew WoW had such sandboxyness! So by that description nearly every MMO has "sandbox" elements because I can gather a couple of mats and click a button, cmon do you really belive that?
Ultima online had it right, no end game just a bunch of stuff to do, and alot of stuff to do at that. No set path, do what you want, I played it 10 years before I gave it up not because I was bored but because old friends left, the game had changed to much and was getting worse, and yet in that time there was still stuff I hadnt seen and done. People saying that it was a skill grind werent playing it right, the game was much more than leveling out skills, the user created events I attended were awesome and varied, treasure hunts,parties, RP events, weekely live auctions for rares, I even took part in a fashion show once. Each one of these I cherish more than getting a awesome epic in WoW or some other raid treadmill.
Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.
It needs balance. There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover. If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas. You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.
Yep, I actually have a post on the forums saying the reason Eve has 300k subs is partly due to its somewhat safe areas.
Lack of safe zones is also the reason Dakfall is low pop and will always be low pop.
Comments
In my opinion the thrill of playing the game has been overshadowed by those who only seek the End Game. Those who do yell louder and complain more which is why it happens. What made EQ fun? Playing it for hours and hours, slowly working your character up, interacting and playing with others, exploring new places, and so on. Seems that many, not all games, out there are concerned more about the end game then the actual game experience itself. I won't name names, but one recent game i played, it took me about 2 months to max out my character! I'm not a hardcore player, I explored as much of the areas as I could, I even devoted a lot of time to crafting and exploration and helping out guild members....but even with all that, it took 2 months to get max level. I played EQ for 3 or 4 years, and only maxed out 2 characters. Why did it only take 2 months? Cause the game was built on End Game PVP...period...it was as if everything else was just an after thought, even though there could have been so much more done. Ok, fine, that's the way they build it..I played and moved on...not a game for me but apparently it is for many.
Several MMO's these days are all taking PVP...good, I like PVP...but the point of an MMORPG is not to max out your char in 2 months and then just run around killing. That's what FPS are for. IMO...MMORPG's are for experiencing a new world, building a character you can be proud of, showing off your trophies (whether its through a house, armor, or weapons), and meeting new people and making memorable gaming experiences; and if killing a few spammers, spawn campers, and moronic people along the way happens...well that's fun too. Still this day...I remember many moments in EQ that will remain classic memories...from chasing (or being chased by) Giants in the desert to falling asleep at my keyboard waiting for the archeologist to spawn...sure it was a pain, but it made the game worthwhile.
IMO...forget the end game...focus on the GAME...if people want to rush through just to be the first to hit level X...good for them...congrats....that's just the way they play...but don't let it spoil the experience for the rest of the people who want to say "Hey, what's that over...."...Loading...Please Wait.
I despise the current trend to focus on the raiding paradigm for end game. I'll be happy camper when they do away with this lazy assed way to program content. Keep your eye on Star Wars The Old Republic. It will be the first AAA MMO to not do any raiding at all. I'm curious to see how it might change the genre for the better.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I agree. And it's hard to enjoy *any* style MMO if most of the players are on completey focused on getting to level cap as soon as possible. Your mileage may vary, but on my WoW server, there wasn't much socializing or non-quest related adventuring going on at all. To do so, people would have to ((GASP)) stop power-questing long enough to enjoy a few distractions. I experienced the same problem in Lotro, although to a much lesser degree.
I don't hold out any hope for SWTOR. It's just another glorified theme-park from what they are saying about it, and I'm turned off at the idea of having henchmen too. It's going to be a solofest and even though it will have a lot more quests than usual, it sounds like that is pretty much all it will have. I'm keeping an eye on it, but henchmen?? Really? What is this Guild Wars?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I agree... more truth here. You can't blame the game for how you choose to play it. If you become consumed with having the best gear and you want to run the same dungeons hundreds of times to do it.. then that's on you. I've found out that if you know how to play the game you can get through dungeons without having top lvl gear in every single slot. I've played games with people who are obssessed with that and they end up ruining their own game experience. A game is what you make of it or don't make of it.. the choice is yours.
MMORPG played in order played: Sims Online, WoW, CoX, EQ2, LinksRealm, LOTRO,TOR...and counting
Ilvaldyr
IIRC I saw this somewhere in one of the interviews saying that group content is limit to 6 players... no raids.
I just can't remember where I saw it.
I don't expect one game to provide me endless entertainment.
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
They changed the entire game.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
They changed the entire game.
Well that's one thing we have in common then; we both value character progression/development over all else.
That leaves me with more questions though:
What is your solution to this problem? You can't very well be implying that the game have infinite levels, abilities, and talent points can you? You do realize that if there are infinite levels, then newbs will never catch up to the veteran players, right? There isn't an unlimited well of potential subscribers, so eventually people will join the game and find out that everyone is between lvls 200-2000. This would leave those who started after launch with a feeling of hopelessness and will end up quitting the game if they're into competitive gameplay.
Lol...
Endgames are a bore, really? That is news to me.
Seriously, you would think farming the same zone over and over would be fun, and farming players for Honor / AP would be fun too.
Actually, every MMO out there is boring. The exp thing is just a grind so you dont notice the endgame sucks. Anyway, once you get to the end you realize it's all farming. Any decent MMO has a good endgame. If an MMO is good it will have politics, competition, etc. involved at the end-game level. Without that, it's mindless and boring farming. There's no competition in todays MMOs so obviously they will all be boring..
The only interesting end-game MMO was EQ on the Zek based servers, there was lots of competition over NPC spawns. On a blue server, I guess it would be boring because you just rotate them. On a real server, you try to prevent other people from raiding the content, which is very fun. Too bad its gone from these pussy MMOs
Gonna ask you a question. In a single player RPG, do you strive to get the best gear in the game before calling it quits or do you make do with what you have that got you to the end of the game?
Your problem is that you're so damned focused on gear, that you'd do anything to get it. In reality, no one makes you grind for anything and if you'd realize that you didn't need the best gear to do things, you'd soon realize you don't have to repeat dungeons unless you want to.
So, if you only do content designed for your playstyle and then /cancel your subscription once that content runs dry, tell me again why you believe the game is a bait and switch? Let me guess, because you think getting the best gear is a playstyle. Well if getting the best loot at your particular level is a playstyle, then grinding dungeons for gear shouldn't be a surprise for you, since you have to grind every 5 man dungeon in the game for those rare blues to have the best gear. Except at lvl 80 you're grinding for those rare purples.
Good job on dodging rebuttals btw. You remind me of Tasos and Smedly.
For me MMOs are all about Character customization and progression. While Leveling in WoW You gain Xp this Xp gains you levels and also Talent points. The Talent point system and ability achievement system in WoW while leveling Is really good imo.
Gear while leveling is a very small part of character progression overal during this phase of the game. Hell a player leveling a hunter could buy Greens of the monkey (Agi/Stamina gear) off the auction house every few levels and he/she is good.
How does this effect WoWs game play? It makes everything else fun. You group up for a dungeon just to see it, You join a pvp out door raid just for the hell of it and you queue up for a BG for a quick match. you have this freedom to do what you want.
What happens at endgame? Xp, Talent points and New Spells/abilities end. Dungeons are no longer seen for fun they are farmed for Items that you need to progress. Over and over you need to run these god damn things. You say You don't need to? what else are you going to do to advance your character? You dont get anymore new spells or talent points.
What happens after you get all the green and blue gear from quests? Do you totally stop progressing? reroll?
I only care about my characters progression and blizzard changes the way I advance my character at endgame.
They toss all the good stuff in Raids and Instanced pvp (arenas/bg) and what am I supposed to do? ignore all the nice stuff?
Blizzard turned the game into a Item farm not me. They chose not to keep advancing talent trees, they chose to lock everyone in 2-3 zones.
They changed the entire game.
Well that's one thing we have in common then; we both value character progression/development over all else.
That leaves me with more questions though:
What is your solution to this problem? You can't very well be implying that the game have infinite levels, abilities, and talent points can you? You do realize that if there are infinite levels, then newbs will never catch up to the veteran players, right? There isn't an unlimited well of potential subscribers, so eventually people will join the game and find out that everyone is between lvls 200-2000. This would leave those who started after launch with a feeling of hopelessness and will end up quitting the game if they're into competitive gameplay.
You do realize that games already do this right? In guild wars Each class has like 200 spells but can only use a certain amount at any given time. In ryzom there is no skill cap, You can have 20 masteries, last I heard there were 10,000 levels in Ryzom. How does that game keep newbs competitve? Well in Ryzom you can't do everything in one type of armor. Doesnt matter if your a Master in 2h swords, guns and affliction magic because you cant cast shit while wearing heavy armor and guns work better with medium armor and you would die too fast if You melee in Light armor. So a guy in 20+ masteries is just as competitve as a guy with only one or two masteries.
In Eve someone could have 100 million SP and still get destroyed by a 10 million isk pilot bcause you can put only so many skill points into one particular ship/playstyle.
So how would I do this in WoW? or any of the other story driven MMO? Lets say i have a level 80 in WoW. I would keep letting the player gain XP and every level after 80 I would give the player 1 skill point. I would also toss spells as quest and achievement rewards. But heres the kicker How will we keep older players from being OP compared to fresh level 80s? Limit the amount of spells and abilities a player can use at any given time. after 80 let players gain access to a new 8 slot action bar. an 8 slot bar that could only hold these extra spells that you gain after you ding 80. Hell you could collect hundreds of spells and keep progressing but you would have to set your speicial bar up before you left a city.
Also keep in mind the leveling you would be doing after 80 would only be for skill points not actual attribute increases, if you allow attribute increases then shit would get out of hand. blizzard would be able to design more talent trees, new spells and new quests and areas that give players both XP and abilities. the game would always be about explortation and not just a dungeon or instanced pvp grind.
Thats how I would do it.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
You guys act like infinite levels are the answer, it's not...
Infinite levels can be boring, look at the AA system in EQ.. Do you think people like farming AA? No, its boring and grinding. Do you think people like farming honor or arena points in WoW? No, its boring.
Games need competition to be interesting in the endgame, not more levels or whatever. (read this twice, idiot game companies)
The only way the endgame would be interesting if it was infinite would be if the new content was ALWAYS original and difficult. They can't really do that yet.
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
Todays MMOs are so messed up.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
Todays MMOs are so messed up.
EQ on Sullon Zek server. People fought each other all day just to control zones so they could raid content.
I don't know about the whole questing thing, it seems like questing is all hand-holding and it's run-around bullshit that wastes time. I say just throw in loot on insanely difficult NPCs and let the players figure out what they want to do.
I also find the loot system retarded in most MMOs anymore. Look at WoW, everyone wears the same shit, and everyone looks the same, and everyone can get any item because the contents do damn trivial. There was a point in my MMO history when I would see a player and be impressed when I saw their gear. When 1000000 people have it, it's just not impressive.
They need to ramp of the difficulty, I understand high school / college kids arent too smart, but this is just pathetic. Put in some insanely difficult content already. That is always fun, because then you have something to work toward.
No, games need to drop the endgame.
They need to be challenging and competitive from day one, not only at max level.
In a pvp game THe conflict shouldnt just start to ramp up at endgame, we should be owning each other from level 1.
IN a pve game the epic dungeons and legendary chain quests shouldnt be only for max level players I should be doing that stuff the entire time!
Instead of adding original content to endgames that gate us into two or three high level zones maybe they should try to keep the entire gameworld useful to everyone. Develop content in every area,make a gameworld feel like its actually evolving.
Seriously man you say any decent MMO has an Endgame, I say show me a good one with an endgame, because I cant find any.
Todays MMOs are so messed up.
EQ on Sullon Zek server. People fought each other all day just to control zones so they could raid content.
I don't know about the whole questing thing, it seems like questing is all hand-holding and it's run-around bullshit that wastes time. I say just throw in loot on insanely difficult NPCs and let the players figure out what they want to do.
I also find the loot system retarded in most MMOs anymore. Look at WoW, everyone wears the same shit, and everyone looks the same, and everyone can get any item because the contents do damn trivial. There was a point in my MMO history when I would see a player and be impressed when I saw their gear. When 1000000 people have it, it's just not impressive.
They need to ramp of the difficulty, I understand high school / college kids arent too smart, but this is just pathetic. Put in some insanely difficult content already. That is always fun, because then you have something to work toward.
Sorry man the days of old EQ hardcore pvp servers are over.
Hell all you guys did was rip eachother apart all day lol.
Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Just do what you want. I make up my own quests and complete them at leisure. Just because many players feel the need to beat the game, doesn't mean you have to feel obligated to help them. I leveled slowly because I know that the endgame that alot of games put forth for players is not really what I enjoy. I take my time leveling, and once I finally hit the level cap, I can do more of what I enjoy, which is helping guild members out, exploring, farming, and making money. All of the quests I give myself do all of that.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Man, the quests in WoW are so damn pointless. Really, they give you rewards and shit, but WTF? WoW is such a damn hand-holding game the quests arent fun. Oh, want to find where to do some quests? DL some addons and it shows oyu the location of everything, thats how people grind so fast anymore. There is no skill left in the current MMORPGs, so I don't see how doing anything at your own leisure is fun. Everything is a grind of trivial content in WoW.
A real MMO is one where you don't have any idea what the world looks like, one that is really dangerous, and does not hold anyones hand. How can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW? It's too newbie friendly. I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.
Palebane you sound like you would be a better Sandbox mmo guy.
Making your own quests? Exploration? Farming? dude try Ryzom.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Thatis not the problem of being newbie friendly, someone is not a newbie 5 levels under cap. A game should have a good experience for the new players, and then turn more and more challenging.
As for the endgame in MMOs I agree. Maybe a game without levels or for that matter levelcaps would be more intresting (yeah I never played Eve) for once you reach max level and done some raiding and possibly sieging it gets boring fast.
A MMO is supposed to be without an end, but you have to grind the same things without getting so much for it in the endgame. There should be a way to make things more intresting, characters should continue to grow as long as you play them, even if the pace get's slower and slower.
Thatis not the problem of being newbie friendly, someone is not a newbie 5 levels under cap. A game should have a good experience for the new players, and then turn more and more challenging.
As for the endgame in MMOs I agree. Maybe a game without levels or for that matter levelcaps would be more intresting (yeah I never played Eve) for once you reach max level and done some raiding and possibly sieging it gets boring fast.
A MMO is supposed to be without an end, but you have to grind the same things without getting so much for it in the endgame. There should be a way to make things more intresting, characters should continue to grow as long as you play them, even if the pace get's slower and slower.
I dunno about being newbie friendly. When I played my first MMO, they gave me a rusty club and a real cheap tunic. That is all there was. Want to figure something out? You have to ask other players. When things are too newbie friendly they reveal too much about the game and make things too obvious & predictable.
I don't think MMOs should have diminishing returns, rather they should allow you to keep advancing. They can just make the content extremely difficult. Some guilds will be able to go far, some won't be able to do shit. But that is the challenge of MMOs. I think the problem with WoW is too many guilds are able to do the end-game content now. There was a time in WoWs history when people couldn't do MC. My guild was in AQ40 trying to do twin emps and other guilds were stuck on MC trash mobs.
Now everyone can do just about anything in the game. And the PvP system is so horrible you can find 2 newbies with a certain class combo and they will be top ranked.. God its horrible
It needs balance. There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover. If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas. You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I hate leveling. Ever since i started eve i find it hard to play any level based games because i am just not lured by the carrot on a stick mechanic that is leveling, like i used to be. TBH i would perfer a game that starts you off at the end game, so half of the content in the game isn't obsolete when you reach that max level like in level based games. It's one of the reasons why i look forward to the secret world.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Holy crap, crafting items! I never knew WoW had such sandboxyness! So by that description nearly every MMO has "sandbox" elements because I can gather a couple of mats and click a button, cmon do you really belive that?
Ultima online had it right, no end game just a bunch of stuff to do, and alot of stuff to do at that. No set path, do what you want, I played it 10 years before I gave it up not because I was bored but because old friends left, the game had changed to much and was getting worse, and yet in that time there was still stuff I hadnt seen and done. People saying that it was a skill grind werent playing it right, the game was much more than leveling out skills, the user created events I attended were awesome and varied, treasure hunts,parties, RP events, weekely live auctions for rares, I even took part in a fashion show once. Each one of these I cherish more than getting a awesome epic in WoW or some other raid treadmill.
It needs balance. There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover. If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas. You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.
Yep, I actually have a post on the forums saying the reason Eve has 300k subs is partly due to its somewhat safe areas.
Lack of safe zones is also the reason Dakfall is low pop and will always be low pop.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom