On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL..... All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That would be acceptable to me as well. If the RMT players are segregated to separate servers, I could live with that.
You are correct sir,about time someone can see the common sense.If it "IS"in the design it is not illegal and is part of the design,so it will not ruin or change the make up of a game.
The people that are against RMT such as myself ,are talking about the games that are NOT designed to have RMT activity.Any argument in that type of game is nothing but a selfish one.How could anyone join a MMO game,where interaction and working with other players is the design,then in the same breathe say"SCREW all of them" i am using RMT for my own selfish reasons ,i could not care less what it does to them or anyone in the game.I also do not care if the game i love is not recieving any benefits from the RMT,i am going to use that ILLEGAL activity to make a company money that has NO right to earn a profit from the game .YES i am going to support that illegal activity,because i have a whole book of excuses why i deserve to break the law...; ;
In otherwords..me me me me me me ,screw everyone else,sad morals we have from gamers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL..... All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That would be acceptable to me as well. If the RMT players are segregated to separate servers, I could live with that.
You are correct sir,about time someone can see the common sense.If it "IS"in the design it is not illegal and is part of the design,so it will not ruin or change the make up of a game.
The people that are against RMT such as myself ,are talking about the games that are NOT designed to have RMT activity.Any argument in that type of game is nothing but a selfish one.How could anyone join a MMO game,where interaction and working with other players is the design,then in the same breathe say"SCREW all of them" i am using RMT for my own selfish reasons ,i could not care less what it does to them or anyone in the game.I also do not care if the game i love is not recieving any benefits from the RMT,i am going to use that ILLEGAL activity to make a company money that has NO right to earn a profit from the game .YES i am going to support that illegal activity,because i have a whole book of excuses why i deserve to break the law...; ;
In otherwords..me me me me me me ,screw everyone else,sad morals we have from gamers.
I think this is a great compromise. If a P2P MMO wants to do RMT, why not on seperate servers and offer free server transfers? Why not keep both types of customers happy and ultimately keep both customers?
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL..... All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That way, they get what they want, and the rest of the people who actually want to play the game....can continue to earn their perks by playing the game. To mix those two preferences, does nothing but at best...form an "upper" and "lower" class "society" (yes, even if the differences are cosmetic, it separates people using financial means) and at worst....it does the same and also creates imbalance in the game, regardless of how small, based on someones financial status and not focused on their skills or commitment of time. Don't we already have plenty of that in the real world? Must we ALSO have it in our games?
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
I couldn't tell if your response was serious or sarcastic. Because, ACTUALLY.....SoE did try to do this with EQ2. They set up two Station Exchange servers that were precisely that. What I'd like to know is why they didn't just stick with that plan. I speculate that it is probably because SoE made more MONEY (the great sound of ka-ching) from the Station Exchange servers than they did the regular servers.
However...upon them implementing the cash shop ingame on ALL servers....many of us, including myself, quit. Apparently not enough to make a difference? I don't know. Wasn't long then before FreeRealms came out. FreeRealms, while being adorably cute and fun for a casual gamer, I imagine, doesn't really fit the bill for a serious traditional MMO gamer.....AND.....it has cash shop items that DEFINITELY affect gameplay. Like weapons with a whole lot more damage, etc, that you can buy at much lower levels than what you could get them otherwise. Just my take on that, but, ya know.
So SoE seems to sort of be a bit of a leader in this RMT thing in the West. SoE is famous for pissing off its player base though, so....I don't know that that is going to bode well for all of the other developers that consider following in the footsteps of a company that has a reputation like theirs.
It depresses me to think THEY are who have a hold of "The Agency." I have high hopes for that game that are only dampened by my awareness of Sony's hand in it. UGH.
I just hope RMT is a flash in the pan in the West. I don't think it has any place in real games. Maybe in Second Life, but that's not a game....
There is nothing unfair about losing to someone who is more skilled than you, but there is if they bought their extra ‘skills’.
I regard those who level 24/7 no differently from those who buy their way to end game, as all rather silly individuals.
The choice of DAOC for end game, to show how good it can be was a sound one. But this is not just my point of view, ask some developers; they put 90% of what they do into the pre end game. That’s why rushing to end game is so pointless.
As far as the MMO’s game company is concerned, RMT will always sound better financially for a P2P. They get a subscription and get to rake in some more money for RMT, this is not driven buy a desire for game balance after all!
I am quite relaxed, enjoying the thread and wondering why you RMT guys are not all at work earning money for the cash shop.
Been working for a few days and come back to see much more rational discussioins. Woot. No more blind crusade, and somewhat more rational discussion on forms of RMT that has different impact and so on. Nice turn in discussion.
To Scot, you do not need to insult us, we work at cash shops? How about I suggest you work for a certain notorious cash shop trying to kill us off first, so you can monopolise the dirty money. You need to go personal insults to put your mute points across?
I already stated a million times: my take on RMT: only RMT from valid legal developers. Gold sellers are hackers, they are thieves. Can you read this, or you still need to repeat personal attacks? I seriously consider labelling you a troll, or someone here to provoke not discuss.
As for SoE, I personally hate them. They ruined SWG, they ruined EQ2, they ruined a lot of good games. They definitely showed us that excessive aggression in RMT would backfire.
Concerning fairness, I have no clue. Who has the final judgment on fairness. If I randomly got an epic sword, while you randomly got a unique shield is that fair? Do we all need be the same to be fair, now CoX pvp come to mind. No major loot just some enchants, maybe that is your game. Chess comes to mind, no loot, no enchant, except difference in color of the set. That is definitely fair, oh wait that is not fair enuf, only one of us can move first.
BUT WHY? Why the pursuit for elusive undefined fairness, when it should be pursuit of fun. I for one won't want to duel with you. Trust me, after I smack you once, you will spam every forum and every chat channel, telling me why that one and only one fight was not fair, and you should have won.
Me: That is called a Straw Man. Please highlight the part of my quote where I reference F2P games. I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post.
But that was the example you cited. no?
No.
RMT is not confined to F2P, even though many F2P games probably use RMT. I didnt bring up F2P at all, even implicitly.
So, if you don't want to answer that
No, there is no point in answering strawman arguments. I never made the argument you are asking about.
Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game
Nope. Because RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US. I am making the assumption it will unbalance the games based on what I have seen from illegal activity already. The pro-RMT people have failed to convince me that RMT will not do the same thing that it's illegal analogs are already doing now.
I think this is a great compromise. If a P2P MMO wants to do RMT, why not on seperate servers and offer free server transfers? Why not keep both types of customers happy and ultimately keep both customers?
I doubt it would satisfy the RMT crowd, since the whole point of RMT is to allow them to buy their way up the food chain. If they are all segregated, then the net effect is that they will all be paying more than the Non-RMT servers and will not really have a leg up on anyway. In a situation with segregated servers, I predict the RMT servers will become graveyards no one wants to play on.
But hey, so long as they are not polluting my own gameworld with RMT, more power to em. I dont have a problem with them having their own servers.
I just hope RMT is a flash in the pan in the West. I don't think it has any place in real games. Maybe in Second Life, but that's not a game....
Yeah, Second Life is definitely a good example of an RMT game, though it is more of a graphic chat room/art gallery than a game. It works for them though, because there is no real competition in their "game".
As far as the MMO’s game company is concerned, RMT will always sound better financially for a P2P.
Not if the end result is less money because their subscribers all run away...
Concerning fairness, I have no clue. Who has the final judgment on fairness.
The people playing the game. Which is why you will see a mass exodus of players from any mainstream game that implements RMT.
If I randomly got an epic sword, while you randomly got a unique shield is that fair?
Yes. Because we both had a chance to get each. It was just chance that you got the sword...not because you bought it.
Do we all need be the same to be fair
The variables need to be the same, yes.
BUT WHY? Why the pursuit for elusive undefined fairness
For the same reason sports are fair. For the same reason chess is fair. Because there is no sense of victory if you dont earn it.
Why compete in sports at all? I could just go to a trophy store and buy a first place trophy for any sport. Would that be the same as earning it in a real competition? Most people dont seem to think so.
If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content. It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game."
Beau
I've seen people try to spin it that way before. Sorry, it doesn't fly.
You are paying $15 a month for the *service* and the ability to log in and play the game on-going, including all maintenance, updates, support, hardware, etc.
Your take would be more appropriate if you said you're paying $50 or whatever for the game, so that makes it like RMT... but that would still be wrong. You're paying for the product as a whole, as well as packaging, printing, etc - not specific parts of it. You're not paying $50 for immediate access to all the best gear and loot (unless you use a cheat, of course, but then that's not playing the game either)..
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
Imagine if in The Legend of Zelda, all you had to do was pay Nintendo an extra $10 to get instant access to the Master Sword. You'd be by-passing all that questing and fighting and dungeon crawling, rendering a significant portion of the game moot. Would that be considered "playing the game" to you? That's essentially what's happening when good gear/items that are beneficial to your character are made available at the swipe of a card.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I would not play a game with RMT on top of a paid sub.
As far as most people would go is what WoW does, with some non-game affecting fluff items.
SOE, has gone to far for many people, with crazy virtual cash stuff in EQ2 (after Smed explictly said it would not happen) and Vanguard, or with the TCG RMT gambling scam in SWG, which does include many game affecting items and items that should have rightfully been introduced as regular content, as paid for by the $15/mo sub.
At least the crappy F2P Asian grinders do not try to scam both RMT and a sub, even though the RMT expenses can be a lot (bigger problem is the games are by and large not very good).
Thumbs down on RMT. Thumbs down on RMT and Sub. Thumbs down on SOE for wanting both.
If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content. It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game."
Beau
I've seen people try to spin it that way before. Sorry, it doesn't fly.
You are paying $15 a month for the *service* and the ability to log in and play the game on-going, including all maintenance, updates, support, hardware, etc.
Your take would be more appropriate if you said you're paying $50 or whatever for the game, so that makes it like RMT... but that would still be wrong. You're paying for the product as a whole, as well as packaging, printing, etc - not specific parts of it. You're not paying $50 for immediate access to all the best gear and loot (unless you use a cheat, of course, but then that's not playing the game either)..
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
Imagine if in The Legend of Zelda, all you had to do was pay Nintendo an extra $10 to get instant access to the Master Sword. You'd be by-passing all that questing and fighting and dungeon crawling, rendering a significant portion of the game moot. Would that be considered "playing the game" to you? That's essentially what's happening when good gear/items that are beneficial to your character are made available at the swipe of a card.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
Can't see how people don't agree with this type of logic.
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers.
um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
By having less acess to items. You just said that RMT will create an abundance of items. That allows more buyers to get them. A lack of RMT, OTOH, will allow buyers to have less access.
It is a wash.
No, it is not a wash. Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation.
Are there actual research showing inflation is higher with RMT? If the gold farmers are farming items to sell to make gold, a high supply will trigger LOWER prices, but higher. The whole economy is complex. Unless i see some evidence, I don't buy that there will be higher inflation.
In fact, economy like WOW seldom has inflation because of the end game effect (demand for an item is lower whenever a buyer buys one). Prices of craft materials, and epic items invariably goes DOWN when new content is added.
However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs.
Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Not on the bind on pick up items. RMT has an effect on the player economy but none whatsoever on obtaining BOP drops. In a game like WOW, a large part of the advancement is in the BOP drops.
Yeah, this thread is now on page 23 because no one has a strong opinion against RMT. uh huh.
I said "most people". How many people are on this forum? How many people play WOW? A few hundred people have strong opinions? That is less than 1% of 1% of just WOW players, not to mentioned MMORPG players.
Of course none of us have any real data.
We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
And SOE is moving in that direction. Is SOE mainstream? Is EQ mainsteam? Is Maple Story mainstream?
For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold.
The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics. If 50% of WOW players purchase gold, it would have an effect, no matter what you call it.
Source please. Give me an example of an SOE game where the developer sells weapons/resources to players for cash that significantly affect the balance of the game.
Station Exchange. You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT. Players sell to players will work too (i.e. Chinese Farmers).
A random decision is fairer than one made by who can pay the most. That’s a pretty universal principle, throwing a dice to win is fairer than who has the biggest wallet.
Orthedos mentions CoX a game where it would be hard to implement RMT’s. My prediction, you will not get many, if any MMO’s made like that again, the financers and marketing department simply won’t let them. That’s even if they don’t intend to launch with RMT’s, it will be a case of making sure the cash cow door is left open.
Please try to get this idea: when I use a " or ^^ " I am not being serious, I think what I said was rather obviously a joke even without a special symbol to show it was.
You cannot be referring to me as a troll as this is only my third post in this thread?
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
Me: um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
By having less acess to items.
How does that hurt them?
Buyers can still get items like they have always gotten items...find them, craft them, earn them, or buy them from other players who have found/crafted/earned them.
How are buyers injured?
A lack of RMT, OTOH, will allow buyers to have less access.
Using that logic, why not just give all players everything immediately? Would that be even better?
RMT gives an advantage to people with more real-world cash than others.
Are there actual research showing inflation is higher with RMT?
Probably, but I am not citing it here. What I am citing is the illegal analog to RMT (buying gold/ISK/INF/whatever) that is already happening in many MMOs now. Yes, it does have a negative impact on the game, which is why developers go out of their way to punish people who do it.
If the gold farmers are farming items to sell to make gold, a high supply will trigger LOWER prices, but higher.
...which will lead in inflation, because gold will not buy as much as it used to. RMT will trash player economies for the same reason buying gold already damages them now.
Again, if it is already a bad thing, why legalize it?
The whole economy is complex.
Inflation is not complex. If you add more artificial wealth to a system, it undermines the real value of that wealth. That is why the US doesnt pay off it's debt by simply printing money...the more money it prints, the less each dollar is worth.
When you saturate a player economy in an MMO with wealth from the outside, the same thing happens. The more gold people buy, the less gold is worth. You end up with a problem like this, only in the MMO.
Unless i see some evidence, I don't buy that there will be higher inflation.
I doubt there is any evidence that would convince you, but fortunately for people like me, it wont come to that. Because most MMO players understand why buying gold (and game-affecting items) is a bad idea.
In fact, economy like WOW seldom has inflation
The WoW economy does have inflation, but the fact that buying gold is illegal helps slow it down.
Me: Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Not on the bind on pick up items.
Anything that can be sold. If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
If you are only interacting with other players for chat, thats not an MMO. I dont have a problem with RMT for single player games.
I said "most people". How many people are on this forum? How many people play WOW? A few hundred people have strong opinions?
How did you determine only a few hundred have strong opinions? Have you asked all of them?
The empirical evidence is what tells me the mainstream MMO community doesnt want RMT. If they did, we would already have seen it implemented by now in a mainstream (Western) MMO.
Me: We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
And SOE is moving in that direction.
Source please. Give me an example.
Even if SOE did, they are one part of the market. It would still be a minority. But I think it is less than that, since I still have not seen any examples of RMT from a mainstream product in this thread (except trivial crap like costume parts).
I'd like to see SPECIFC examples. What exactly can you buy in an SOE game that significantly alters character balance? Name the game and the item.
Me: The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics.
I disagree. It is relevant in this context. You are trying to equate illegal gold buying with RMT as evidence that RMT is harmless. But they are not analogous, since developers go to a great deal of trouble to discourage gold buying and punish people caught doing it.
By contrast, there will be no incentives not to buy RMT gold, since it will be legal.
If 50% of WOW players purchase gold
Source please. Is that merely your opinion? If not, where does that 50% figure come from?
You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT.
You do in the context of this thread. No one in the thread is complaining about RMT for trivial items...only for items that alter balance.
Players sell to players will work too
Chinese Farmers are also banned in every MMO I have played so far, without exception. Macroing is considered a cheat as well, and for the same reason. Give me an example of an exception.
The fact that they can get away with it doesnt mean it is a good thing, or that it is part of the game.
I keep seeing the same rhetoric, and asking the same question. What North American Producer does not support RMT in at least one of thier games? As far as I can tell, none. That means that all of you are paying a company that supports RMT in some form (if you are paying for any game from a North American Producer). No matter what you say, if you keep giving money to the people that support this, you are in effect part of the problem. RMT, be it a vanity item, a server transfer, or the 'I win' item is all the same. It is a way for the producer to make money on a virtual product. It is a clear extenion of business practices for real products, and something that consumers support. No matter how 'distasteful' you may find it, people are lining up to pay for it... and any company that wants to do well in these tough economic times is going to take thier money, because that is what business does. In the end, business caters to those who pay... and charities cater to those who dont.
Another common rebuttal that's either disingenuous, or entirely missing the point.
A name change does not give anyone an advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself (stories, quests, etc).
A server transfer does not give an in-game advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself.
A gender change does not give an in-game advantage over other players, nor does it subvert the game itself.
However... Being able to buy a weapon with really good stats that's only available through an item mall, where one person might have the spare cash to buy it while another may not *does* give an in-game advantage that has absolutely nothing to do with playing the game... There's nothing the person with less cash can do in-game to obtain that item. It *does* subvert the game itself.
I'm really wondering what happened to gamers... When did "getting everything when you want it" become the only reason to play games? I thought it was about developing the character, playing through the content, experiencing the storyline, being challenged and enjoying the ride... What happened to that really powerful sword the reward for a tough fight, or completing a challenging quest chain? When did playing a game become little more than an e-peen waving contest between the "haves" and "have-nots"? When did gamers become so damn spoiled?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I keep seeing the same rhetoric, and asking the same question. What North American Producer does not support RMT in at least one of thier games? As far as I can tell, none. That means that all of you are paying a company that supports RMT in some form (if you are paying for any game from a North American Producer). No matter what you say, if you keep giving money to the people that support this, you are in effect part of the problem. RMT, be it a vanity item, a server transfer, or the 'I win' item is all the same. It is a way for the producer to make money on a virtual product. It is a clear extenion of business practices for real products, and something that consumers support. No matter how 'distasteful' you may find it, people are lining up to pay for it... and any company that wants to do well in these tough economic times is going to take thier money, because that is what business does. In the end, business caters to those who pay... and charities cater to those who dont.
Another common rebuttal that's either disingenuous, or entirely missing the point.
A name change does not give anyone an advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself (stories, quests, etc).
A server transfer does not give an in-game advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself.
A gender change does not give an in-game advantage over other players, nor does it subvert the game itself.
However... Being able to buy a weapon with really good stats that's only available through an item mall, where one person might have the spare cash to buy it while another may not *does* give an in-game advantage that has absolutely nothing to do with playing the game... There's nothing the person with less cash can do in-game to obtain that item. It *does* subvert the game itself.
I'm really wondering what happened to gamers... When did "getting everything when you want it" become the only reason to play games? I thought it was about developing the character, playing through the content, experiencing the storyline, being challenged and enjoying the ride... What happened to that really powerful sword the reward for a tough fight, or completing a challenging quest chain? When did playing a game become little more than an e-peen waving contest between the "haves" and "have-nots"? When did gamers become so damn spoiled?
That's probably related to the "casual" gamers that want as much as the "hardcore" players in the same timeframe. Player A spends 10 hours a week, Player B spends 40 hours a week. Player A wants to be stronger than player B, considering he doesn't understand the fact there is a level cap and limited content because of that, so that Player B will reach a limit and Player A will catch up, until there is a content update.
And feeding the bad RMTs is like destroying future MMOs. There are so many F2P games out there I would play if they were P2P. The pay $15 bucks for all-you-can-play does not destroy your budget when you get addicted to the game, however this pay-all-you-can for choose-what-you-want, is really a huge scam and an exploitation of game addiction.
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently.
Most people who play MMOs (at least in the West) do not find it entertaining if the game is not fair.
Even in non-MMO multiplayer games (like Quake) people dont play on servers that allow cheating.
There is a segment of the MMO community that doesnt have a problem with RMT, but they will never be mainstream IMO. I predict that even in the Asian market, RMT will eventually fade away once Asian players realize how empty it is. The only reason they put up with it now is because their market isnt as mature as our's is.
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
-Whoosh-
My point went completely over your head.
First of all, using the fact that people cheat in single player games as a justification for RMT in multiplayer games is just laughable.
That said, someone cheating their way through a single-player game is still a perfect example of people *not actually playing the game*. Do you seriously think using a cheat code or a hack to obtain an item that would otherwise be earned through completing a long questline or defeating a boss - you know, things that are *part of playing the game* - is equivalent to playing the game itself? If so, then you might be a great example of what's wrong with many gamers these days. Cheating != Playing.
Whether or not it affects anyone else is moot... Unless the cheater is full of crap and tells people he "beat" the game in a record time. Did he cheat the game? Yes. Did he beat it? No.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
If people are buying items in-game using their credit card instead of earning them through means provided to everyone in-game, then they are not playing the game. They are buying their way through it. They are cheating.
Alternatively, if an item only available via an item mall gives an advantage to those with the extra cash to spend over those who don't, then the game is no longer about who's the more skilled or persistent player. It's about who has the bigger checking account or is willing to spend more money... again, especially if there's no in-game way for one to acquire the same, or an equivalent item.
Spin that any way you want, it still comes down to the same conclusion.
As for avoiding parts they don't like... When did players become the people to decide what's important and what isn't in a game? The *developers* and *designers* determine that... not the players. If the designers implement a nice piece of armor that drops off the boss at the end of a tough questline, and the item may also be sold via an auction house for a high cost... then the player has 2 ways of obtaining that item... either beat the boss, or save the money and buy the item. *That* is playing the game. Pulling out the credit card to buy some extra in-game money so you can just "have it now" and bypass both options is not playing the game as designed, no matter what justification one might conjure up for it.
Again... another example of how completely spoiled many have become.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game Nope. Because RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US. I am making the assumption it will unbalance the games based on what I have seen from illegal activity already. The pro-RMT people have failed to convince me that RMT will not do the same thing that it's illegal analogs are already doing now.
My full question was 'Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game and it negatively affects the economy. I ask that because that your position is that purchased items will devalue ingame items and that they will negatively affect the game economy.
"Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation."
"RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have."
"I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post."
"RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US."
This is false. Station Cash and the EQ2 Marketplace allow for the purchase of ingame items. In WOW, the only way to get a Spectral Tiger Mount is through spending cash outside the game. Runes of Magic is a very popular game in the NA/EU market and its business model is solely microtransactions. Puzzle Pirates has had its doubloons servers for years now. UO allows you to buy extra storage space, high end weapons, and even house items that magically create resources/consumables for you. EVE Online has PLEX which is gametime that can be bought for real currency and sold ingame for game currency.If by "mainstream MMOs in the US" you were referring to a small collection of 4-6 MMOs, feel free to dismiss all except for EQ2 which should fit well into the small scope of games in "mainstream MMOs in the US".
Brain Dead, you are working off the assumption that if illegal RMT breaks a game that isn't designed for it , then it will break a game even if it was part of the core design. So far, that hasn't proven true.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Short answer: It is not adding ISK to the game. Therefore it is not causing inflation. It also does not significantly affect balance due to the way EVE's skill system works.
Brain Dead, you are working off the assumption that if illegal RMT breaks a game that isn't designed for it , then it will break a game even if it was part of the core design. So far, that hasn't proven true.
I am unwilling to take the risk. Every example I have seen so far has been negative. If you have a positive example to present, feel free to show us. If I find out a game has RMT, I will avoid it. And I doubt I will be in the minority.
The only "RMT" I have seen so far in mainstream MMOs is for trivial crap like costume parts or minor items that have no real effect in balance. So long as RMT remains confined to trivial items, I dont have a problem with it, and I doubt other people do either.
What we have a problem with is RMT that allows people to buy items that give them a SIGNIFICANTadvantage in-game. That doesnt include pretty mounts or costume parts or healing potions.
The WoW economy does have inflation, but the fact that buying gold is illegal helps slow it down.
Me: Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Read very carefully. I never said RMT does not hurt the game economy. I am saying I am not convinced the effect is inflation which is two different things. "Hurt" can have many different forms.
Plus, if you go on wowecon.com, you will see that for most items, wow does NOT have inflation (defined by prices increases over time). In fact, prices usually DECREASE over time, particularly when content is added.
Not on the bind on pick up items.
Anything that can be sold. If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
By having to go into a dungeon with a raid group to get the item? I would love to see how one can solo Emalon and get his stuff.
Me: The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics.
I disagree. It is relevant in this context. You are trying to equate illegal gold buying with RMT as evidence that RMT is harmless. But they are not analogous, since developers go to a great deal of trouble to discourage gold buying and punish people caught doing it.
By contrast, there will be no incentives not to buy RMT gold, since it will be legal.
RMT & illegal gold buying (illegal against company policy, not against the law, btw) are similar enough. And i never said it is harmless. I said its effect is not as big as many here may think.
Just the existence of so many RMT companies selling WOW stuff is proof that it is pretty prevalent. Look at how much those companies generate in revenue, or how many people they support. That gives you a sense of the size of that underground economy. Sure, if it is legal, it may be even bigger but you cannot deny that it is significant right now.
You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT.
You do in the context of this thread. No one in the thread is complaining about RMT for trivial items...only for items that alter balance.
Players sell to players will work too
Chinese Farmers are also banned in every MMO I have played so far, without exception. Macroing is considered a cheat as well, and for the same reason. Give me an example of an exception.
Does station exchange allows players to sell stuff to other players. That kind of RMT (player to player) can have a big effect on the game too. You don't have to confine it to devlopers selling stuff to players. And that can be sanctioned by the developer (like station exchange).
The fact that they can get away with it doesnt mean it is a good thing, or that it is part of the game.
Never said it is a good thing but it is a part of the game because the developer cannot control it effectively. And because of that, and its impact, it should be part of the discussion.
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
-Whoosh-
My point went completely over your head.
First of all, using the fact that people cheat in single player games as a justification for RMT in multiplayer games is just laughable.
That said, someone cheating their way through a single-player game is still a perfect example of people *not actually playing the game*. Do you seriously think using a cheat code or a hack to obtain an item that would otherwise be earned through completing a long questline or defeating a boss - you know, things that are *part of playing the game* - is equivalent to playing the game itself? If so, then you might be a great example of what's wrong with many gamers these days. Cheating != Playing.
Whether or not it affects anyone else is moot... Unless the cheater is full of crap and tells people he "beat" the game in a record time. Did he cheat the game? Yes. Did he beat it? No.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
If people are buying items in-game using their credit card instead of earning them through means provided to everyone in-game, then they are not playing the game. They are buying their way through it. They are cheating.
Alternatively, if an item only available via an item mall gives an advantage to those with the extra cash to spend over those who don't, then the game is no longer about who's the more skilled or persistent player. It's about who has the bigger checking account or is willing to spend more money... again, especially if there's no in-game way for one to acquire the same, or an equivalent item.
Spin that any way you want, it still comes down to the same conclusion.
As for avoiding parts they don't like... When did players become the people to decide what's important and what isn't in a game? The *developers* and *designers* determine that... not the players. If the designers implement a nice piece of armor that drops off the boss at the end of a tough questline, and the item may also be sold via an auction house for a high cost... then the player has 2 ways of obtaining that item... either beat the boss, or save the money and buy the item. *That* is playing the game. Pulling out the credit card to buy some extra in-game money so you can just "have it now" and bypass both options is not playing the game as designed, no matter what justification one might conjure up for it.
Again... another example of how completely spoiled many have become.
Wow .. you did not READ what i wrote. Where did it justify or tie SP cheating to RMT? I merely point out that people cheat in SP games too and they do not "have to" earn their way .. as you have said.
Well, you definition of "playing the game" is different than mine then. Who says you have to "beat" the game to "play" it. Going through the content is one way of "playing" it. It is not like the person will just sit there and watch the end screen. He will still beat the boss, just in one try, without risk, then dying 20 times. Sure, it is not the SAME as beating the boss, but i disagree that he is not playing.
You know that SP games have different difficulties, right? Is playing on EASY (and sometimes easy is very much like cheat mode, anyway) = not playing the game? Of course not.
"Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation."
It depends on the kind of RMT we are talking about. System like station exchange, where it enables player to player RMT transaction (with a transaction fee) is NOT the same as developers selling stuff to the players.
An item stil needed to be "earned" by whatever the numbers of hours spent in the game, just by a DIFFERENT person than the one finally owns and use the item. So the economy is STILL based on in-game player actions, just that there are players doing it for real money.
Originally posted by Brain-dead RMT used for trivial items is not RMT in the context of this thread. I thought that was obvious.
HOLD ON. If this thread is only about RMT items that serve as a seperation between paying players and non-paying players, i'm fairly certain the majority of people would agree that the RMT being discussed is horrible.
RMT is being argued for because it doesn't mark a shitty system, the selling of non-trivial items is.
And I just read your post where you say exactly that. I'm glad we agree. However, for further clarification, do you think RMT presented in the correct manner is Anti-Game?
---
Also, what is your take on EXP potions (lets say 20% increase, and a setup like most mainstream mmo's, with grind-like quests and/or grinds)? Thanks brain-dead.
Me: If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
By having to go into a dungeon with a raid group to get the item?
If you are playing with other people, then yeah, your bought items do affect gameplay. More people will want to raid with you if you have the best equipment, because in games like that Equipment is everything. So we are back to my first argument.
RMT & illegal gold buying (illegal against company policy, not against the law, btw) are similar enough.
I disagree. IMO, RMT is worse because it is legitimized, so more people will do it.
Just the existence of so many RMT companies selling WOW stuff is proof that it is pretty prevalent.
No, it is just evidence that they can sell enough to make it worthwhile. It is not evidence that everyone does it.
Look at how much those companies generate in revenue
Please post your source for their revenue.
Look at how much those companies generate in revenue
If I already believe it is bad now, why would I want to make it worse?
station exchange allows players to sell stuff to other players. That kind of RMT (player to player) can have a big effect on the game too.
But players still have tom earn/find/craft the original items, right? If so, that isnt RMT in the context of this thread. New items are not being injected into the game via cash. They are just allowing player to sell items that they found/crafted/earned to other players.
You don't have to confine it to devlopers selling stuff to players.
Comments
You are correct sir,about time someone can see the common sense.If it "IS"in the design it is not illegal and is part of the design,so it will not ruin or change the make up of a game.
The people that are against RMT such as myself ,are talking about the games that are NOT designed to have RMT activity.Any argument in that type of game is nothing but a selfish one.How could anyone join a MMO game,where interaction and working with other players is the design,then in the same breathe say"SCREW all of them" i am using RMT for my own selfish reasons ,i could not care less what it does to them or anyone in the game.I also do not care if the game i love is not recieving any benefits from the RMT,i am going to use that ILLEGAL activity to make a company money that has NO right to earn a profit from the game .YES i am going to support that illegal activity,because i have a whole book of excuses why i deserve to break the law...; ;
In otherwords..me me me me me me ,screw everyone else,sad morals we have from gamers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You are correct sir,about time someone can see the common sense.If it "IS"in the design it is not illegal and is part of the design,so it will not ruin or change the make up of a game.
The people that are against RMT such as myself ,are talking about the games that are NOT designed to have RMT activity.Any argument in that type of game is nothing but a selfish one.How could anyone join a MMO game,where interaction and working with other players is the design,then in the same breathe say"SCREW all of them" i am using RMT for my own selfish reasons ,i could not care less what it does to them or anyone in the game.I also do not care if the game i love is not recieving any benefits from the RMT,i am going to use that ILLEGAL activity to make a company money that has NO right to earn a profit from the game .YES i am going to support that illegal activity,because i have a whole book of excuses why i deserve to break the law...; ;
In otherwords..me me me me me me ,screw everyone else,sad morals we have from gamers.
I think this is a great compromise. If a P2P MMO wants to do RMT, why not on seperate servers and offer free server transfers? Why not keep both types of customers happy and ultimately keep both customers?
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
I couldn't tell if your response was serious or sarcastic.
Because, ACTUALLY.....SoE did try to do this with EQ2. They set up two Station Exchange servers that were precisely that. What I'd like to know is why they didn't just stick with that plan. I speculate that it is probably because SoE made more MONEY (the great sound of ka-ching) from the Station Exchange servers than they did the regular servers.
However...upon them implementing the cash shop ingame on ALL servers....many of us, including myself, quit. Apparently not enough to make a difference? I don't know. Wasn't long then before FreeRealms came out. FreeRealms, while being adorably cute and fun for a casual gamer, I imagine, doesn't really fit the bill for a serious traditional MMO gamer.....AND.....it has cash shop items that DEFINITELY affect gameplay. Like weapons with a whole lot more damage, etc, that you can buy at much lower levels than what you could get them otherwise. Just my take on that, but, ya know.
So SoE seems to sort of be a bit of a leader in this RMT thing in the West. SoE is famous for pissing off its player base though, so....I don't know that that is going to bode well for all of the other developers that consider following in the footsteps of a company that has a reputation like theirs.
It depresses me to think THEY are who have a hold of "The Agency." I have high hopes for that game that are only dampened by my awareness of Sony's hand in it. UGH.
I just hope RMT is a flash in the pan in the West. I don't think it has any place in real games. Maybe in Second Life, but that's not a game....
/end of rant
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
There is nothing unfair about losing to someone who is more skilled than you, but there is if they bought their extra ‘skills’.
I regard those who level 24/7 no differently from those who buy their way to end game, as all rather silly individuals.
The choice of DAOC for end game, to show how good it can be was a sound one. But this is not just my point of view, ask some developers; they put 90% of what they do into the pre end game. That’s why rushing to end game is so pointless.
As far as the MMO’s game company is concerned, RMT will always sound better financially for a P2P. They get a subscription and get to rake in some more money for RMT, this is not driven buy a desire for game balance after all!
I am quite relaxed, enjoying the thread and wondering why you RMT guys are not all at work earning money for the cash shop.
Been working for a few days and come back to see much more rational discussioins. Woot. No more blind crusade, and somewhat more rational discussion on forms of RMT that has different impact and so on. Nice turn in discussion.
To Scot, you do not need to insult us, we work at cash shops? How about I suggest you work for a certain notorious cash shop trying to kill us off first, so you can monopolise the dirty money. You need to go personal insults to put your mute points across?
I already stated a million times: my take on RMT: only RMT from valid legal developers. Gold sellers are hackers, they are thieves. Can you read this, or you still need to repeat personal attacks? I seriously consider labelling you a troll, or someone here to provoke not discuss.
As for SoE, I personally hate them. They ruined SWG, they ruined EQ2, they ruined a lot of good games. They definitely showed us that excessive aggression in RMT would backfire.
Concerning fairness, I have no clue. Who has the final judgment on fairness. If I randomly got an epic sword, while you randomly got a unique shield is that fair? Do we all need be the same to be fair, now CoX pvp come to mind. No major loot just some enchants, maybe that is your game. Chess comes to mind, no loot, no enchant, except difference in color of the set. That is definitely fair, oh wait that is not fair enuf, only one of us can move first.
BUT WHY? Why the pursuit for elusive undefined fairness, when it should be pursuit of fun. I for one won't want to duel with you. Trust me, after I smack you once, you will spam every forum and every chat channel, telling me why that one and only one fight was not fair, and you should have won.
Me: That is called a Straw Man. Please highlight the part of my quote where I reference F2P games. I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post.
But that was the example you cited. no?
No.
RMT is not confined to F2P, even though many F2P games probably use RMT. I didnt bring up F2P at all, even implicitly.
So, if you don't want to answer that
No, there is no point in answering strawman arguments. I never made the argument you are asking about.
Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game
Nope. Because RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US. I am making the assumption it will unbalance the games based on what I have seen from illegal activity already. The pro-RMT people have failed to convince me that RMT will not do the same thing that it's illegal analogs are already doing now.
I think this is a great compromise. If a P2P MMO wants to do RMT, why not on seperate servers and offer free server transfers? Why not keep both types of customers happy and ultimately keep both customers?
I doubt it would satisfy the RMT crowd, since the whole point of RMT is to allow them to buy their way up the food chain. If they are all segregated, then the net effect is that they will all be paying more than the Non-RMT servers and will not really have a leg up on anyway. In a situation with segregated servers, I predict the RMT servers will become graveyards no one wants to play on.
But hey, so long as they are not polluting my own gameworld with RMT, more power to em. I dont have a problem with them having their own servers.
I just hope RMT is a flash in the pan in the West. I don't think it has any place in real games. Maybe in Second Life, but that's not a game....
Yeah, Second Life is definitely a good example of an RMT game, though it is more of a graphic chat room/art gallery than a game. It works for them though, because there is no real competition in their "game".
As far as the MMO’s game company is concerned, RMT will always sound better financially for a P2P.
Not if the end result is less money because their subscribers all run away...
Concerning fairness, I have no clue. Who has the final judgment on fairness.
The people playing the game. Which is why you will see a mass exodus of players from any mainstream game that implements RMT.
If I randomly got an epic sword, while you randomly got a unique shield is that fair?
Yes. Because we both had a chance to get each. It was just chance that you got the sword...not because you bought it.
Do we all need be the same to be fair
The variables need to be the same, yes.
BUT WHY? Why the pursuit for elusive undefined fairness
For the same reason sports are fair. For the same reason chess is fair. Because there is no sense of victory if you dont earn it.
Why compete in sports at all? I could just go to a trophy store and buy a first place trophy for any sport. Would that be the same as earning it in a real competition? Most people dont seem to think so.
I've seen people try to spin it that way before. Sorry, it doesn't fly.
You are paying $15 a month for the *service* and the ability to log in and play the game on-going, including all maintenance, updates, support, hardware, etc.
Your take would be more appropriate if you said you're paying $50 or whatever for the game, so that makes it like RMT... but that would still be wrong. You're paying for the product as a whole, as well as packaging, printing, etc - not specific parts of it. You're not paying $50 for immediate access to all the best gear and loot (unless you use a cheat, of course, but then that's not playing the game either)..
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
Imagine if in The Legend of Zelda, all you had to do was pay Nintendo an extra $10 to get instant access to the Master Sword. You'd be by-passing all that questing and fighting and dungeon crawling, rendering a significant portion of the game moot. Would that be considered "playing the game" to you? That's essentially what's happening when good gear/items that are beneficial to your character are made available at the swipe of a card.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I would not play a game with RMT on top of a paid sub.
As far as most people would go is what WoW does, with some non-game affecting fluff items.
SOE, has gone to far for many people, with crazy virtual cash stuff in EQ2 (after Smed explictly said it would not happen) and Vanguard, or with the TCG RMT gambling scam in SWG, which does include many game affecting items and items that should have rightfully been introduced as regular content, as paid for by the $15/mo sub.
At least the crappy F2P Asian grinders do not try to scam both RMT and a sub, even though the RMT expenses can be a lot (bigger problem is the games are by and large not very good).
Thumbs down on RMT. Thumbs down on RMT and Sub. Thumbs down on SOE for wanting both.
I've seen people try to spin it that way before. Sorry, it doesn't fly.
You are paying $15 a month for the *service* and the ability to log in and play the game on-going, including all maintenance, updates, support, hardware, etc.
Your take would be more appropriate if you said you're paying $50 or whatever for the game, so that makes it like RMT... but that would still be wrong. You're paying for the product as a whole, as well as packaging, printing, etc - not specific parts of it. You're not paying $50 for immediate access to all the best gear and loot (unless you use a cheat, of course, but then that's not playing the game either)..
Even in a single-player game, if you want a specific sword or set of armor, you have to *earn* it in-game. That *is* part of the game content, and that's what the OP - rightfully in my opinion - states is being by-passed when you simply allow people to swipe a credit card and obtain it. You're subverting/eliminating an entirely, potentially very interesting and rewarding story arc or series of challenges to get the item.
Imagine if in The Legend of Zelda, all you had to do was pay Nintendo an extra $10 to get instant access to the Master Sword. You'd be by-passing all that questing and fighting and dungeon crawling, rendering a significant portion of the game moot. Would that be considered "playing the game" to you? That's essentially what's happening when good gear/items that are beneficial to your character are made available at the swipe of a card.
More and more people just want the reward without the effort, and that's why RMT is becoming more and more popular. They don't want to play games. They just want "the good stuff... now".
Can't see how people don't agree with this type of logic.
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers.
um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
By having less acess to items. You just said that RMT will create an abundance of items. That allows more buyers to get them. A lack of RMT, OTOH, will allow buyers to have less access.
It is a wash.
No, it is not a wash. Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation.
Are there actual research showing inflation is higher with RMT? If the gold farmers are farming items to sell to make gold, a high supply will trigger LOWER prices, but higher. The whole economy is complex. Unless i see some evidence, I don't buy that there will be higher inflation.
In fact, economy like WOW seldom has inflation because of the end game effect (demand for an item is lower whenever a buyer buys one). Prices of craft materials, and epic items invariably goes DOWN when new content is added.
However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs.
Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Not on the bind on pick up items. RMT has an effect on the player economy but none whatsoever on obtaining BOP drops. In a game like WOW, a large part of the advancement is in the BOP drops.
Yeah, this thread is now on page 23 because no one has a strong opinion against RMT. uh huh.
I said "most people". How many people are on this forum? How many people play WOW? A few hundred people have strong opinions? That is less than 1% of 1% of just WOW players, not to mentioned MMORPG players.
Of course none of us have any real data.
We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
And SOE is moving in that direction. Is SOE mainstream? Is EQ mainsteam? Is Maple Story mainstream?
For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold.
The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics. If 50% of WOW players purchase gold, it would have an effect, no matter what you call it.
Source please. Give me an example of an SOE game where the developer sells weapons/resources to players for cash that significantly affect the balance of the game.
Station Exchange. You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT. Players sell to players will work too (i.e. Chinese Farmers).
A random decision is fairer than one made by who can pay the most. That’s a pretty universal principle, throwing a dice to win is fairer than who has the biggest wallet.
Orthedos mentions CoX a game where it would be hard to implement RMT’s. My prediction, you will not get many, if any MMO’s made like that again, the financers and marketing department simply won’t let them. That’s even if they don’t intend to launch with RMT’s, it will be a case of making sure the cash cow door is left open.
Please try to get this idea: when I use a "
or ^^ " I am not being serious, I think what I said was rather obviously a joke even without a special symbol to show it was.
You cannot be referring to me as a troll as this is only my third post in this thread?
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
Me: um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
By having less acess to items.
How does that hurt them?
Buyers can still get items like they have always gotten items...find them, craft them, earn them, or buy them from other players who have found/crafted/earned them.
How are buyers injured?
A lack of RMT, OTOH, will allow buyers to have less access.
Using that logic, why not just give all players everything immediately? Would that be even better?
RMT gives an advantage to people with more real-world cash than others.
Are there actual research showing inflation is higher with RMT?
Probably, but I am not citing it here. What I am citing is the illegal analog to RMT (buying gold/ISK/INF/whatever) that is already happening in many MMOs now. Yes, it does have a negative impact on the game, which is why developers go out of their way to punish people who do it.
If the gold farmers are farming items to sell to make gold, a high supply will trigger LOWER prices, but higher.
...which will lead in inflation, because gold will not buy as much as it used to. RMT will trash player economies for the same reason buying gold already damages them now.
Again, if it is already a bad thing, why legalize it?
The whole economy is complex.
Inflation is not complex. If you add more artificial wealth to a system, it undermines the real value of that wealth. That is why the US doesnt pay off it's debt by simply printing money...the more money it prints, the less each dollar is worth.
When you saturate a player economy in an MMO with wealth from the outside, the same thing happens. The more gold people buy, the less gold is worth. You end up with a problem like this, only in the MMO.
Unless i see some evidence, I don't buy that there will be higher inflation.
I doubt there is any evidence that would convince you, but fortunately for people like me, it wont come to that. Because most MMO players understand why buying gold (and game-affecting items) is a bad idea.
In fact, economy like WOW seldom has inflation
The WoW economy does have inflation, but the fact that buying gold is illegal helps slow it down.
Me: Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Not on the bind on pick up items.
Anything that can be sold. If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
If you are only interacting with other players for chat, thats not an MMO. I dont have a problem with RMT for single player games.
I said "most people". How many people are on this forum? How many people play WOW? A few hundred people have strong opinions?
How did you determine only a few hundred have strong opinions? Have you asked all of them?
The empirical evidence is what tells me the mainstream MMO community doesnt want RMT. If they did, we would already have seen it implemented by now in a mainstream (Western) MMO.
Me: We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
And SOE is moving in that direction.
Source please. Give me an example.
Even if SOE did, they are one part of the market. It would still be a minority. But I think it is less than that, since I still have not seen any examples of RMT from a mainstream product in this thread (except trivial crap like costume parts).
I'd like to see SPECIFC examples. What exactly can you buy in an SOE game that significantly alters character balance? Name the game and the item.
Me: The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics.
I disagree. It is relevant in this context. You are trying to equate illegal gold buying with RMT as evidence that RMT is harmless. But they are not analogous, since developers go to a great deal of trouble to discourage gold buying and punish people caught doing it.
By contrast, there will be no incentives not to buy RMT gold, since it will be legal.
If 50% of WOW players purchase gold
Source please. Is that merely your opinion? If not, where does that 50% figure come from?
You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT.
You do in the context of this thread. No one in the thread is complaining about RMT for trivial items...only for items that alter balance.
Players sell to players will work too
Chinese Farmers are also banned in every MMO I have played so far, without exception. Macroing is considered a cheat as well, and for the same reason. Give me an example of an exception.
The fact that they can get away with it doesnt mean it is a good thing, or that it is part of the game.
Another common rebuttal that's either disingenuous, or entirely missing the point.
A name change does not give anyone an advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself (stories, quests, etc).
A server transfer does not give an in-game advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself.
A gender change does not give an in-game advantage over other players, nor does it subvert the game itself.
However... Being able to buy a weapon with really good stats that's only available through an item mall, where one person might have the spare cash to buy it while another may not *does* give an in-game advantage that has absolutely nothing to do with playing the game... There's nothing the person with less cash can do in-game to obtain that item. It *does* subvert the game itself.
I'm really wondering what happened to gamers... When did "getting everything when you want it" become the only reason to play games? I thought it was about developing the character, playing through the content, experiencing the storyline, being challenged and enjoying the ride... What happened to that really powerful sword the reward for a tough fight, or completing a challenging quest chain? When did playing a game become little more than an e-peen waving contest between the "haves" and "have-nots"? When did gamers become so damn spoiled?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Another common rebuttal that's either disingenuous, or entirely missing the point.
A name change does not give anyone an advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself (stories, quests, etc).
A server transfer does not give an in-game advantage over anyone else, nor does it subvert the game itself.
A gender change does not give an in-game advantage over other players, nor does it subvert the game itself.
However... Being able to buy a weapon with really good stats that's only available through an item mall, where one person might have the spare cash to buy it while another may not *does* give an in-game advantage that has absolutely nothing to do with playing the game... There's nothing the person with less cash can do in-game to obtain that item. It *does* subvert the game itself.
I'm really wondering what happened to gamers... When did "getting everything when you want it" become the only reason to play games? I thought it was about developing the character, playing through the content, experiencing the storyline, being challenged and enjoying the ride... What happened to that really powerful sword the reward for a tough fight, or completing a challenging quest chain? When did playing a game become little more than an e-peen waving contest between the "haves" and "have-nots"? When did gamers become so damn spoiled?
That's probably related to the "casual" gamers that want as much as the "hardcore" players in the same timeframe. Player A spends 10 hours a week, Player B spends 40 hours a week. Player A wants to be stronger than player B, considering he doesn't understand the fact there is a level cap and limited content because of that, so that Player B will reach a limit and Player A will catch up, until there is a content update.
And feeding the bad RMTs is like destroying future MMOs. There are so many F2P games out there I would play if they were P2P. The pay $15 bucks for all-you-can-play does not destroy your budget when you get addicted to the game, however this pay-all-you-can for choose-what-you-want, is really a huge scam and an exploitation of game addiction.
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently.
Most people who play MMOs (at least in the West) do not find it entertaining if the game is not fair.
Even in non-MMO multiplayer games (like Quake) people dont play on servers that allow cheating.
There is a segment of the MMO community that doesnt have a problem with RMT, but they will never be mainstream IMO. I predict that even in the Asian market, RMT will eventually fade away once Asian players realize how empty it is. The only reason they put up with it now is because their market isnt as mature as our's is.
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
-Whoosh-
My point went completely over your head.
First of all, using the fact that people cheat in single player games as a justification for RMT in multiplayer games is just laughable.
That said, someone cheating their way through a single-player game is still a perfect example of people *not actually playing the game*. Do you seriously think using a cheat code or a hack to obtain an item that would otherwise be earned through completing a long questline or defeating a boss - you know, things that are *part of playing the game* - is equivalent to playing the game itself? If so, then you might be a great example of what's wrong with many gamers these days. Cheating != Playing.
Whether or not it affects anyone else is moot... Unless the cheater is full of crap and tells people he "beat" the game in a record time. Did he cheat the game? Yes. Did he beat it? No.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
If people are buying items in-game using their credit card instead of earning them through means provided to everyone in-game, then they are not playing the game. They are buying their way through it. They are cheating.
Alternatively, if an item only available via an item mall gives an advantage to those with the extra cash to spend over those who don't, then the game is no longer about who's the more skilled or persistent player. It's about who has the bigger checking account or is willing to spend more money... again, especially if there's no in-game way for one to acquire the same, or an equivalent item.
Spin that any way you want, it still comes down to the same conclusion.
As for avoiding parts they don't like... When did players become the people to decide what's important and what isn't in a game? The *developers* and *designers* determine that... not the players. If the designers implement a nice piece of armor that drops off the boss at the end of a tough questline, and the item may also be sold via an auction house for a high cost... then the player has 2 ways of obtaining that item... either beat the boss, or save the money and buy the item. *That* is playing the game. Pulling out the credit card to buy some extra in-game money so you can just "have it now" and bypass both options is not playing the game as designed, no matter what justification one might conjure up for it.
Again... another example of how completely spoiled many have become.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My full question was 'Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game and it negatively affects the economy. I ask that because that your position is that purchased items will devalue ingame items and that they will negatively affect the game economy.
"Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation."
"RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have."
"I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post."
"RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US."
This is false. Station Cash and the EQ2 Marketplace allow for the purchase of ingame items. In WOW, the only way to get a Spectral Tiger Mount is through spending cash outside the game. Runes of Magic is a very popular game in the NA/EU market and its business model is solely microtransactions. Puzzle Pirates has had its doubloons servers for years now. UO allows you to buy extra storage space, high end weapons, and even house items that magically create resources/consumables for you. EVE Online has PLEX which is gametime that can be bought for real currency and sold ingame for game currency.If by "mainstream MMOs in the US" you were referring to a small collection of 4-6 MMOs, feel free to dismiss all except for EQ2 which should fit well into the small scope of games in "mainstream MMOs in the US".
Brain Dead, you are working off the assumption that if illegal RMT breaks a game that isn't designed for it , then it will break a game even if it was part of the core design. So far, that hasn't proven true.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
My full question was 'Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game and it negatively affects the economy.
I answered that in Post #234.
Me: RMT (in the context of this thread) is not used in mainstream MMOs in the US.
This is false. Station Cash and the EQ2 Marketplace allow for the purchase of ingame items.
What kind of items? Costume parts? Minor stuff like healing potions? Please be specific since I have not played EQ2 recently.
RMT used for trivial items is not RMT in the context of this thread. I thought that was obvious.
In WOW, the only way to get a Spectral Tiger Mount is through spending cash outside the game.
And that affects game balance...how? That is not RMT in the context of this thread IMO.
EVE Online has PLEX which is gametime that can be bought for real currency and sold ingame for game currency.
I addressed why that is not RMT in post #194.
Short answer: It is not adding ISK to the game. Therefore it is not causing inflation. It also does not significantly affect balance due to the way EVE's skill system works.
Brain Dead, you are working off the assumption that if illegal RMT breaks a game that isn't designed for it , then it will break a game even if it was part of the core design. So far, that hasn't proven true.
I am unwilling to take the risk. Every example I have seen so far has been negative. If you have a positive example to present, feel free to show us. If I find out a game has RMT, I will avoid it. And I doubt I will be in the minority.
The only "RMT" I have seen so far in mainstream MMOs is for trivial crap like costume parts or minor items that have no real effect in balance. So long as RMT remains confined to trivial items, I dont have a problem with it, and I doubt other people do either.
What we have a problem with is RMT that allows people to buy items that give them a SIGNIFICANT advantage in-game. That doesnt include pretty mounts or costume parts or healing potions.
In fact, economy like WOW seldom has inflation
The WoW economy does have inflation, but the fact that buying gold is illegal helps slow it down.
Me: Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
Read very carefully. I never said RMT does not hurt the game economy. I am saying I am not convinced the effect is inflation which is two different things. "Hurt" can have many different forms.
Plus, if you go on wowecon.com, you will see that for most items, wow does NOT have inflation (defined by prices increases over time). In fact, prices usually DECREASE over time, particularly when content is added.
Not on the bind on pick up items.
Anything that can be sold. If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
By having to go into a dungeon with a raid group to get the item? I would love to see how one can solo Emalon and get his stuff.
Me: The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
That is an immaterial distinction and semantics.
I disagree. It is relevant in this context. You are trying to equate illegal gold buying with RMT as evidence that RMT is harmless. But they are not analogous, since developers go to a great deal of trouble to discourage gold buying and punish people caught doing it.
By contrast, there will be no incentives not to buy RMT gold, since it will be legal.
RMT & illegal gold buying (illegal against company policy, not against the law, btw) are similar enough. And i never said it is harmless. I said its effect is not as big as many here may think.
Just the existence of so many RMT companies selling WOW stuff is proof that it is pretty prevalent. Look at how much those companies generate in revenue, or how many people they support. That gives you a sense of the size of that underground economy. Sure, if it is legal, it may be even bigger but you cannot deny that it is significant right now.
You don't have to have developers sell weapons/resources to players for cash to make it RMT.
You do in the context of this thread. No one in the thread is complaining about RMT for trivial items...only for items that alter balance.
Players sell to players will work too
Chinese Farmers are also banned in every MMO I have played so far, without exception. Macroing is considered a cheat as well, and for the same reason. Give me an example of an exception.
Does station exchange allows players to sell stuff to other players. That kind of RMT (player to player) can have a big effect on the game too. You don't have to confine it to devlopers selling stuff to players. And that can be sanctioned by the developer (like station exchange).
The fact that they can get away with it doesnt mean it is a good thing, or that it is part of the game.
Never said it is a good thing but it is a part of the game because the developer cannot control it effectively. And because of that, and its impact, it should be part of the discussion.
No you don't have to 'earn' it. There are cheats and trainers for single player games. People cheats all the time. There are hacks for multiplayer games (no MMOs). The point is people want their entertainment differently. If a guy wants a SP with no challenges and wants to breeze through all the levels in 3 hours, who is to say that is wrong? Obviously for a SP game, it won't affect anyone.
-Whoosh-
My point went completely over your head.
First of all, using the fact that people cheat in single player games as a justification for RMT in multiplayer games is just laughable.
That said, someone cheating their way through a single-player game is still a perfect example of people *not actually playing the game*. Do you seriously think using a cheat code or a hack to obtain an item that would otherwise be earned through completing a long questline or defeating a boss - you know, things that are *part of playing the game* - is equivalent to playing the game itself? If so, then you might be a great example of what's wrong with many gamers these days. Cheating != Playing.
Whether or not it affects anyone else is moot... Unless the cheater is full of crap and tells people he "beat" the game in a record time. Did he cheat the game? Yes. Did he beat it? No.
And i think you are also wrong to say "They don't want to play games". It is more accurate to say they only want to play the parts they want. People don't just buy powerful items and look at them. They use them in game.
If people are buying items in-game using their credit card instead of earning them through means provided to everyone in-game, then they are not playing the game. They are buying their way through it. They are cheating.
Alternatively, if an item only available via an item mall gives an advantage to those with the extra cash to spend over those who don't, then the game is no longer about who's the more skilled or persistent player. It's about who has the bigger checking account or is willing to spend more money... again, especially if there's no in-game way for one to acquire the same, or an equivalent item.
Spin that any way you want, it still comes down to the same conclusion.
As for avoiding parts they don't like... When did players become the people to decide what's important and what isn't in a game? The *developers* and *designers* determine that... not the players. If the designers implement a nice piece of armor that drops off the boss at the end of a tough questline, and the item may also be sold via an auction house for a high cost... then the player has 2 ways of obtaining that item... either beat the boss, or save the money and buy the item. *That* is playing the game. Pulling out the credit card to buy some extra in-game money so you can just "have it now" and bypass both options is not playing the game as designed, no matter what justification one might conjure up for it.
Again... another example of how completely spoiled many have become.
Wow .. you did not READ what i wrote. Where did it justify or tie SP cheating to RMT? I merely point out that people cheat in SP games too and they do not "have to" earn their way .. as you have said.
Well, you definition of "playing the game" is different than mine then. Who says you have to "beat" the game to "play" it. Going through the content is one way of "playing" it. It is not like the person will just sit there and watch the end screen. He will still beat the boss, just in one try, without risk, then dying 20 times. Sure, it is not the SAME as beating the boss, but i disagree that he is not playing.
You know that SP games have different difficulties, right? Is playing on EASY (and sometimes easy is very much like cheat mode, anyway) = not playing the game? Of course not.
"Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation."
It depends on the kind of RMT we are talking about. System like station exchange, where it enables player to player RMT transaction (with a transaction fee) is NOT the same as developers selling stuff to the players.
An item stil needed to be "earned" by whatever the numbers of hours spent in the game, just by a DIFFERENT person than the one finally owns and use the item. So the economy is STILL based on in-game player actions, just that there are players doing it for real money.
HOLD ON. If this thread is only about RMT items that serve as a seperation between paying players and non-paying players, i'm fairly certain the majority of people would agree that the RMT being discussed is horrible.
RMT is being argued for because it doesn't mark a shitty system, the selling of non-trivial items is.
And I just read your post where you say exactly that. I'm glad we agree. However, for further clarification, do you think RMT presented in the correct manner is Anti-Game?
---
Also, what is your take on EXP potions (lets say 20% increase, and a setup like most mainstream mmo's, with grind-like quests and/or grinds)? Thanks brain-dead.
I never said RMT does not hurt the game economy.
Good, then we concur.
Me: If it is bind on pick up, and you are playing instanced content...how is it an MMO?
By having to go into a dungeon with a raid group to get the item?
If you are playing with other people, then yeah, your bought items do affect gameplay. More people will want to raid with you if you have the best equipment, because in games like that Equipment is everything. So we are back to my first argument.
RMT & illegal gold buying (illegal against company policy, not against the law, btw) are similar enough.
I disagree. IMO, RMT is worse because it is legitimized, so more people will do it.
Just the existence of so many RMT companies selling WOW stuff is proof that it is pretty prevalent.
No, it is just evidence that they can sell enough to make it worthwhile. It is not evidence that everyone does it.
Look at how much those companies generate in revenue
Please post your source for their revenue.
Look at how much those companies generate in revenue
If I already believe it is bad now, why would I want to make it worse?
station exchange allows players to sell stuff to other players. That kind of RMT (player to player) can have a big effect on the game too.
But players still have tom earn/find/craft the original items, right? If so, that isnt RMT in the context of this thread. New items are not being injected into the game via cash. They are just allowing player to sell items that they found/crafted/earned to other players.
You don't have to confine it to devlopers selling stuff to players.
You do in this context.