Contrary to what many people believe here I actually do have a limit with regards to RMT. As I stated before if I find something in a game truely boring I make a choice, is this a game breaker for me? yes or no? If I still want to play the game can I use the game mechanics to get by. The answer so far has been yes, I can usually find some other way to get past that ugly part, or end up paying someone in game to do it for me. E.g. in Istaria someone is paying me (using in game coin) to collect trophies for them. I need a couple gold for a lair and plot, they don't want to grind trophies to level a character. For those who don't know, mobs drop trophies that NPC's in the game collect and give you coin and xp. I like fighting with my dragon so it works for me. Now because of that I have enough to buy my lair and almost enough for a plot. For RMT I would prefer to have it legal, there are issues with account hacks and what not. Dealing with the company I think would be more secure than some other faceless entity on the web. I stated I wouldn't care if god mode items came out, and truthfully I woudln't because I don't find them game breaking for my style of play. But there is a limit on what game breaking is for me. That would be paying more (above the allready cost of expansion) to access some area of the game that is physically impossible to do without buying a special zone permit, and crafting. I want to be able to craft everything and not have it be limited to an RMT situation. Most other things I feel don't affect really affect anyone unless they let it. Venge Sunsoar
I don't comprehend this attitude in the least. EVERYTHING affects everyone in the game, regardless of thier desire to let it or not.
No everything doesn't affect everyone. In fact the only thing that does affect you absolutely are changes the devs make. What one person does or doesn't do, does not affect me. They could have their uber sword of god slaying, doesn't make a difference to me, market spam - channel I can ignore it, or turn it off. The way people play will only affect you if you choose to let it.
Whether it's in EQ where people with enough gold can hire mercenaries, or WoW where someone buys there character with whatever equipment. Chances are I won't ever be grouping with that person or probably ever even see them to CoH where people buy all the legal games packs or buy illegal billions of influence, to Istaria where someone pays somene else to do all the work for them. My gameplay is not affected even for a moment. And thats because how I choose to play the game is completely independent of those people.
I have no desire to keep up with the joneses. I have my goals and thats all that matters in a game I am paying for.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No everything doesn't affect everyone. In fact the only thing that does affect you absolutely are changes the devs make. What one person does or doesn't do, does not affect me. They could have their uber sword of god slaying, doesn't make a difference to me, market spam - channel I can ignore it, or turn it off. The way people play will only affect you if you choose to let it. Whether it's in EQ where people with enough gold can hire mercenaries, or WoW where someone buys there character with whatever equipment. Chances are I won't ever be grouping with that person or probably ever even see them to CoH where people buy all the legal games packs or buy illegal billions of influence, to Istaria where someone pays somene else to do all the work for them. My gameplay is not affected even for a moment. And thats because how I choose to play the game is completely independent of those people. I have no desire to keep up with the joneses. I have my goals and thats all that matters in a game I am paying for. Venge Sunsoar
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it. It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions. You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not. Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons. There is NEVER a lack of mobs. And respawn rate is fast enough in most games (WOW in particular) that it is NOT an issue. I suppose it will be an issue if everyone wants to farm some mobs in open world but since most of the end-game farming can be done in instances, i don't see a problem.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing. That balances out inflation (lower prices if suppy is abundance) and get more good items into the hands of players.
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT. Anyone who knows how to use google can buy gold in WOW in less than 15 min. The game is still wildly popular. I don't think RMT will kill any game.
So yeah, RMT will affect you in some way but from what I have observed in WOW, even if the effect is negative, no one notices or care about it. If so, you may as well ignore it. Sure, some guildmate buying 5000 gold is not fair to you, but so is I give my son's char 5000 gold. The world is not fair.
Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it. please tell us why you think RMT is a good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world... come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/employes of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???
First thanks for the attempted insults without even reading what I repeatedly said. I said I strongly object to RMT with illegal gold farmers. I have NO STRONG FEELINGS about RMT from the original developer. So stop putting words in my mouth. Or claim that I am an employee of RMT. For all I can guess you might actually be a RMT firm, trying to create negative propaganda just to bring people' s attention to RMT. Come on, can we stop alleged and conspiracy theories after losing a debate?
Did I said RMT is good? I said it does not affect my game play, so I do not see why I need to have strong views. That equates good? I just said your vehement and irrational crusade against RMT is groundless. It does not improve gameplay as I see it. It only smell jealousy. I also do not agree that 24/7 gamers deserve better treatment from games, neither better loot nor access to restricted content. I actually think that some of the 24/7 gamers are social leechers.
So pls learn to read and understand what I said and stop putting words in my mouth.
LoLz mate when did I lose this argument, Your post are all over the place, and the only thing you do is bash people that do not agree with you. You havent shown us any strong points WHY RMT would work better then P2P. And the social aspect of people getting hooked, on spending to mush money in the chash shops dosent seam to have enterd your mind, or even bother you in the slightest. Many people are weak (children especially) who many of these games target. Im against Gambling in general and selling alcohol to underaged people. My argument have always been that RMT Is a bad business, Targeted at a Teenage audience, who migh not have the life experiance to controll thiere shoping habbits
You say that I am on a Irrational crusade against RMT. I think its fairly rational to voice once objection against a system that in the wrong hands could prove catastrophic to certain people and families. You said its catastrophic to someone, but you offer NO proof. I dare not guess how castrophic it is to whoever, so I only look at myself and tell you, NO it does not affect me. As far as I can see, games cannot hardly be catastrophic to rational ppl.
Now you might counter me and say im seeing it all in Black, and the RMT is not like this. But there are serveral cases where Kidds have gotten exploited by these games. Ok, there are cases where kids are exploited over the online chat rooms, so online chat rooms are catastrohpic. There are ppl who killed themselves drinking milk, so milk is catastrophic. There are ppl who die in plane crashes, so planes are catastrohpic. Come on, everyone who breathes eventually dies, so breathing is catastrophic.
Now your argument always comes back to YOU; It dose not effect YOUR game play, It dosent bother YOU that people spend IRL money on virtual items. Who am I to judgment how RMT affect others. You are running a crusade on behalf of everyone, but you hardly know how many agrees with you. I can only talk for myself, but you are trying to pretend you represent everyone.
But this thread isent called "Do RMT bother Orthedos" This thread is about RMT is good or bad, I said it does not affect me, so it is NOT bad for me. I am humble, I only talk about myself, and I make it clear it is RMT from legal developer.
Many have voiced there concerns about RMT and you have still to show us WHY its any good. Instead you say that we are Irrationall Crusaders, that have not a leg to stand on. There are voices, I hear, you are one of them. There are also voices saying RMT is no big deal, I am one of them. We heard each other, and I come to dismiss you b/c you offer no proof apart from zealous fanatism.
-Balance issues
-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money Whose view of fairness? I object to your view of fairness, as I do not see why ppl who play a game 24/7 need be rewarded more. I see no fairness at all in any way of allocation. It is just a game. RMT is not more no less fair than any other rules.
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know) So rewarding 24/7 risk encouraging ppl to grow addicted playing games. I rather have ppl work and earn money to pay for game items than skip work, skip schools to camp for the same items. Of course, there are lots of scenarios, we have yet to provide any solid evidence. I am just saying you lack solid evidence suggestion that addiction will be a general phenomena.
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs. What does that have to do with RMT? The underaged will also lose their life playing 24/7. Supervision of the underaged belongs to the family and parent's purview.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future? What morale, same for your fairness argument above. Don't bring your bible to me. Stop preaching, you are talking like the churchman.
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners. First says who it is only the kids who are buying. Second, says who its daddy's credit card. Stop making up stories and preach. Bring on the evidence. Shgw us solid statistics, not imaginary stories out of your own bible.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point. A few imaginary stories or totally fabricated ideas to prove what? Fairness? Morale? Oh come on. That is why I say you are losing your argument.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population. You might call me a Crusader, or an Irrational RMT hater. But I see the bigger picture here. If you took a step back and looked at the potential ramification of what the RMT industry migth do to the genre, I think you would understand that we THE Crusaders DO have a POINT to our arguments.
In closing read my recap below:
Are you forced to play games with RMT from developers? If not why do you need to play? If you do not play move on.
Are there no other choices in terms of games? Can you find games without RMT from developers?
What are games for? Leisure or morale/fairness? Who are you to levy your standard of fairness on games?
If you are worried about social impact, cool, go put up comprehensive studies with valid coverage. Empty statements involving the few words "kids" "daddy's credit card" are not statistics nor evidence. Just random alphabets.
Are you a developer? If you are, refrain from RMT if you hate that business model. If you are not a developer, stop buying from developers offering RMT options. That is it. That is your right as a buyer. The seller has the right to sell with RMT options so long as it does not breach the law. That is HIS FREEDOM. Who the hell are you rambling here? I do not understand you, the developers won't hear you. All futile.
If you have a case, establish it in solid evidence backed by verifiable studies. Then find ways to channel your ideas to people in the business. So far I see you have no case, no evidence, not even a coherent argument. Just a lot of passion, sincerity BUT nothing that matters when it comes to business decision.
No everything doesn't affect everyone. In fact the only thing that does affect you absolutely are changes the devs make. What one person does or doesn't do, does not affect me. They could have their uber sword of god slaying, doesn't make a difference to me, market spam - channel I can ignore it, or turn it off. The way people play will only affect you if you choose to let it. Whether it's in EQ where people with enough gold can hire mercenaries, or WoW where someone buys there character with whatever equipment. Chances are I won't ever be grouping with that person or probably ever even see them to CoH where people buy all the legal games packs or buy illegal billions of influence, to Istaria where someone pays somene else to do all the work for them. My gameplay is not affected even for a moment. And thats because how I choose to play the game is completely independent of those people. I have no desire to keep up with the joneses. I have my goals and thats all that matters in a game I am paying for. Venge Sunsoar
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
No it does not affect me. There is no illusion about it. It does not change my attitude my belief, my actions, my thought processes or the way I game at all - therefore it does not affect me unless I choose to let it affect me. Ignoring it is a choice and if I can ignore a problem than it does not affect me.
You are mistaking somethign affecting me for something existing. Many things exist that do not affect me. Same with most RMT. RMT or swords do not create inflation, a game economy that enables unlimited gold to be made and very little of it taken away creates inflation. This only affects me IF I choose to buy something on the market and I rarely do, crafting and drops are good enough for me. There are more than enough mobs with fast enough spawn rates not even counting instances so scarcity doesn't exist.
RMT does not determine subs or game resouces, game design and marketing determine subs and resources. But once again if the game design is good and mobs spawn quick enough, how other people does not affect me.
So one more time the only things in a game that absolutely affect you are the devs. Everything else is your choice. I am only affected by something if it causes me to behave, think, act... differently, and this is completely up to me.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Are you forced to play games with RMT from developers? If not why do you need to play? If you do not play move on. Are there no other choices in terms of games? Can you find games without RMT from developers? What are games for? Leisure or morale/fairness? Who are you to levy your standard of fairness on games? If you are worried about social impact, cool, go put up comprehensive studies with valid coverage. Empty statements involving the few words "kids" "daddy's credit card" are not statistics nor evidence. Just random alphabets. Are you a developer? If you are, refrain from RMT if you hate that business model. If you are not a developer, stop buying from developers offering RMT options. That is it. That is your right as a buyer. The seller has the right to sell with RMT options so long as it does not breach the law. That is HIS FREEDOM. Who the hell are you rambling here? I do not understand you, the developers won't hear you. All futile. If you have a case, establish it in solid evidence backed by verifiable studies. Then find ways to channel your ideas to people in the business. So far I see you have no case, no evidence, not even a coherent argument. Just a lot of passion, sincerity BUT nothing that matters when it comes to business decision. All futile.
Orthedos you always come back to comparing 24/7 playing with RMT. Where have you seen me make a POST that I say that 24/7 playing is a healthy lifestyle. Where have I said that I think this is a good thing?
When I speak of games like Entropida universe and other Korean FULL out RMT games im not throwing out statments. Most of my experince comes from playing these games. As I explained before I made a living on some of them thru college. But as long as there is a Winner there have to be losers. Money dosent grow on trees. So for those 3-4 years I made money others had to lose money. Now in Europe there are serveral cases where the RMT have been brought up both on the News and in courts. We are now talking about RMT games that use phone bills to pay. so little kidds could call in and be charged. They did this behind thier parants backs. Now you might think this is okey I dont.
Iv always been good with numbers, now some people are and others are not. This gives me an advantage over people when we are talking games like Poker and Chess for example. None of my friends wants to play with me anyomre as I beat them 8 out of 10 times in Poker and never lose to them in Chess. You still have the luck factor in Poker but a superior mathematical skill gives you an advantage. This has proven to work for me in other online games also, like the RMT once where crunching numbers on the Market might Win the day. Thru the years iv come to dislike gambling as I have seen first hand how mush damge it can cause on a personal level to people who cant handle it. RMTs are the same, most of my friends and I have made money. But I also know people who have lost money. And now we are talking 10-15 thousand dollars per person, no small figures. RMTs are good for people that can control thiere economy, have a good economic sense and a sound knowledge of business practices. Those are the winners, but these games also have a lot of average Joes playing, and most of them wont stand a chans... In a competetive enviorment against people that are both street smart and have superior economic skills.
Now I think you personaly are smart enough not to go flat broke playing RMT games, but there will always be a certain % that arnt. Im saying that the more people who get into RMT the more money will change hands. There will be more winners but also alot more losers. Just like in Poker only the TOP players will be making good money and the masses will often lose more then they get back.
But try to stay on topic and not use the 24/7 gaming as some sort of counter argument to why we should use RMT. Both are a waste in my book.
Ps: the reason im rambling is that My point is to show as many people/potential consumers of these games why they should not play them. If the RMT genre gets no costomers it will slowly fade away... Im doing the same as any who stand against something, be it a prohibition against drugs, trafficking, Crime and gambling. You might not like that im against RMT games, you might not understand it. But I see it as a moral calling to inform and give my side off the coin.
If just one person thinks twice before getting into these games after reading my posts it will be worth it.
What are the rights of a customer? What are the rights of a supplier. Are you a supplier or customer? I understand that you are a customer, and not a supplier, so your views are just what you want from a game provider, nothing more. I do not feel that your concern is worth the trouble. To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services. If a producer offer RMT options and it is not against the law, it is ok with me. Whether I would play the game or not depends on gameplay, RMT is not the one and only deciding factor.
You are good in numbers, that means squat. You need to demonstrate you have indeed a case of national importance in order to mobilise people to support you. Your personal views about fairness is nothing, just your view. What is fairer than RMT? Nothing. A game is not about fairness, its about fun. Chess with a senior (sometimes with handicaps) is not about fairness, its about fun. What fairness? equal chance to win? Go play dice.
You have tried to show me your argument, I see no substance there, just pure zeal. You keeps saying RMT hurts your gameplay, I do not feel so. You keep raising the banner of fairness which I failed to see the relevance. Then you try to compare RMT (from legal developer) with drug trafficking. Oh dear why not suggest to me that RMT hurts as much as mass murder or racial genicide? You see that as a moral obligation, that is why I say yes you are sincere, you act with religious fanatism and zeal. You are running a crusade. You do not convince me.
PERIOD. You are not wrong, your view is yours. I am not convinced and I see no rational argument besides passion, heat and zeal. That is my verdict, all along.
Can you explain to me how anything in a MMO that can be introduced RMT wise could be “against the law”? Otherwise your first paragraph is just a very long way of saying ‘any RMT’s introduced are fine by me.’
We do not need a case of ‘national importance’ to state our position and ask those of like views to join us in giving RMT’s and F2P the dressing down they deserve.
Fairness is part of fun, if a game is not fair it is not fun.
Anyone who has played a MMO to end game knows that the end game is where a lot of the polish of the MMO disappears. What is the point of paying to quickly reach a less satisfying, less fun part of the game? Paying to skip content is stupidity of the highest order.
If this does not make sense to you I will be happy to elaborate, but hopefully it does.
Can you explain to me how anything in a MMO that can be introduced RMT wise could be “against the law”? Otherwise your first paragraph is just a very long way of saying ‘any RMT’s introduced are fine by me.’You have no idea how easily someone can cookup a lawsuit. Oh well never mind. RMT is ok to me so long as it is not associated with illegal gold sellers, that is my stand. Like it or not. If that is not against the law, it is ok to me. My only choice is, buy or skip. My decision to buy or not rest on gameplay, exclusively. We do not need a case of ‘national importance’ to state our position and ask those of like views to join us in giving RMT’s and F2P the dressing down they deserve. You are free to go on with your crusade, after all, we have millions of such crusade, from saving the snail, to stop eating meat, to singing a song every night to the mouse. All I can say is, good luck. Fairness is part of fun, if a game is not fair it is not fun. Your view, I do not need fairness to find fun in a game. After all what is fair, is playing a chess game against someone far superior fun? fair? Anyone who has played a MMO to end game knows that the end game is where a lot of the polish of the MMO disappears. What is the point of paying to quickly reach a less satisfying, less fun part of the game? Paying to skip content is stupidity of the highest order. Anyone who has played... how do you know that? You know the view of everyone who has played a MMO? I prove you are wrong, I do not agree with that statement, so you are wrong. I do not see why end game must be less polished. I see many fun endgames, notably DAoC. If this does not make sense to you I will be happy to elaborate, but hopefully it does.
I do not see RMT to be worth the trouble you are creating. I do not have issues so long as illegal gold sellers are weeded out.
That does not translate to rushing to the end game. After all, you can rush to the end game by buying, you can rush to the end game by playing 24/7. Fact is, those who pay are not likely to be playing 24/7, so the winner for the race to the end game is .... you bet? Those who play 24/7. But I really wonder what the hell are you doing, why are you so agitated with the way people play their own damn games? Why is it such a big issue for you when someone reaching the end game faster than you desire? Are you a bit too nosy?
Likewise, why don't you focus on assessing how much fun you derive from each game? Why all the nosy busybody behaviour, talking endlessly about RMT. Do you want to play games for your own leisure, or you play games trying to dictate the lifestyle and playstyle of others? If I find fun, enuf fun, from a game, I hardly notice if Mr A bought his sword, or Mr B pay for power levelling.
Fact is, the only thing I smell strongly is jealousy. You do not want people to get to the end game so fast, you do not want people to buy the sword you are unable or unwilling to pay for. Oh well, nothing I can do about jealousy.
Can you explain to me how anything in a MMO that can be introduced RMT wise could be “against the law”? Otherwise your first paragraph is just a very long way of saying ‘any RMT’s introduced are fine by me.’You have no idea how easily someone can cookup a lawsuit. Oh well never mind. RMT is ok to me so long as it is not associated with illegal gold sellers, that is my stand. Like it or not. If that is not against the law, it is ok to me. My only choice is, buy or skip. My decision to buy or not rest on gameplay, exclusively. We do not need a case of ‘national importance’ to state our position and ask those of like views to join us in giving RMT’s and F2P the dressing down they deserve. You are free to go on with your crusade, after all, we have millions of such crusade, from saving the snail, to stop eating meat, to singing a song every night to the mouse. All I can say is, good luck. Fairness is part of fun, if a game is not fair it is not fun. Your view, I do not need fairness to find fun in a game. After all what is fair, is playing a chess game against someone far superior fun? fair? Anyone who has played a MMO to end game knows that the end game is where a lot of the polish of the MMO disappears. What is the point of paying to quickly reach a less satisfying, less fun part of the game? Paying to skip content is stupidity of the highest order. Anyone who has played... how do you know that? You know the view of everyone who has played a MMO? I prove you are wrong, I do not agree with that statement, so you are wrong. I do not see why end game must be less polished. I see many fun endgames, notably DAoC. If this does not make sense to you I will be happy to elaborate, but hopefully it does.
I do not see RMT to be worth the trouble you are creating. I do not have issues so long as illegal gold sellers are weeded out.
That does not translate to rushing to the end game. After all, you can rush to the end game by buying, you can rush to the end game by playing 24/7. Fact is, those who pay are not likely to be playing 24/7, so the winner for the race to the end game is .... you bet? Those who play 24/7. But I really wonder what the hell are you doing, why are you so agitated with the way people play their own damn games? Why is it such a big issue for you when someone reaching the end game faster than you desire? Are you a bit too nosy?
Likewise, why don't you focus on assessing how much fun you derive from each game? Why all the nosy busybody behaviour, talking endlessly about RMT. Do you want to play games for your own leisure, or you play games trying to dictate the lifestyle and playstyle of others? If I find fun, enuf fun, from a game, I hardly notice if Mr A bought his sword, or Mr B pay for power levelling.
Fact is, the only thing I smell strongly is jealousy. You do not want people to get to the end game so fast, you do not want people to buy the sword you are unable or unwilling to pay for. Oh well, nothing I can do about jealousy.
Go play the games you like, and relax.
hmmm.. Been reading thru your post again and I think you and I might have run into a failure to comunicate. Might be that its my lacking English skills. or the fact that I just did a poor jobb.
So I give it one more try. When I speak of RMT I speak of games where everything cost Real money and the money ingame can be put into play in the Real world. Like Entropida universe http://www.entropiauniverse.com/entropiauniverse/. Now this to me is on the far Edge of sane gamplay. And yes people have spent hundreads of thousands of dollars in that game. Is this the Future of online gaming, I hope to god not.
And the best way is to put people of these games long before it gets to the point where we live our lives in computer games. "OMG the stock has gone down in my online game, dam there goes my pension".
Lets make a stand right here Orthedos, Cash games while they might look to save you time, will in the end come back to hunt you...
I understand you dont like 24/7 gamers and we can agree that its not a healthy way of playing. But last I looked time is free. Items in cash games are not, and forcing you to get the best medpack and latest gun to be able to hunt might dry out your bank account. And in a full cash game you cant even get a bad gun or sword if you dont open your wallet.
I understand you dont like illegal gold sellers, who dose?. But cash/RMT games or not the right way to combat them, that system just lets them make the money they make now Legaly.
So our Arms are open Othedos lets all agree that RMT done in a bad way is NOT GOOD IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM
No everything doesn't affect everyone. In fact the only thing that does affect you absolutely are changes the devs make. What one person does or doesn't do, does not affect me. They could have their uber sword of god slaying, doesn't make a difference to me, market spam - channel I can ignore it, or turn it off. The way people play will only affect you if you choose to let it. Whether it's in EQ where people with enough gold can hire mercenaries, or WoW where someone buys there character with whatever equipment. Chances are I won't ever be grouping with that person or probably ever even see them to CoH where people buy all the legal games packs or buy illegal billions of influence, to Istaria where someone pays somene else to do all the work for them. My gameplay is not affected even for a moment. And thats because how I choose to play the game is completely independent of those people. I have no desire to keep up with the joneses. I have my goals and thats all that matters in a game I am paying for. Venge Sunsoar
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
No it does not affect me. There is no illusion about it. It does not change my attitude my belief, my actions, my thought processes or the way I game at all - therefore it does not affect me unless I choose to let it affect me. Ignoring it is a choice and if I can ignore a problem than it does not affect me.
You are mistaking somethign affecting me for something existing. Many things exist that do not affect me. Same with most RMT. RMT or swords do not create inflation, a game economy that enables unlimited gold to be made and very little of it taken away creates inflation. This only affects me IF I choose to buy something on the market and I rarely do, crafting and drops are good enough for me. There are more than enough mobs with fast enough spawn rates not even counting instances so scarcity doesn't exist.
RMT does not determine subs or game resouces, game design and marketing determine subs and resources. But once again if the game design is good and mobs spawn quick enough, how other people does not affect me.
So one more time the only things in a game that absolutely affect you are the devs. Everything else is your choice. I am only affected by something if it causes me to behave, think, act... differently, and this is completely up to me.
Venge Sunsoar
I will agree to disagree and in any case it is a moot point. You will play RMT games and enjoy them, and I will avoid them like the plague and give my money to subscription based games.
As long as we both have games to play that we enjoy, all is well and good.
The only thing I'm looking forward to at the moment is TOR. I hope it's well made, with lots of polish, and I expect Bioware to deliver. I also hope they don't ruin the game (from my perspective) with RMT.If they do, there's another RMT game for you to play, and I'll wait for a good P2P game for me to play.
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL.....
All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That way, they get what they want, and the rest of the people who actually want to play the game....can continue to earn their perks by playing the game.
To mix those two preferences, does nothing but at best...form an "upper" and "lower" class "society" (yes, even if the differences are cosmetic, it separates people using financial means) and at worst....it does the same and also creates imbalance in the game, regardless of how small, based on someones financial status and not focused on their skills or commitment of time. Don't we already have plenty of that in the real world? Must we ALSO have it in our games?
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL..... All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That way, they get what they want, and the rest of the people who actually want to play the game....can continue to earn their perks by playing the game. To mix those two preferences, does nothing but at best...form an "upper" and "lower" class "society" (yes, even if the differences are cosmetic, it separates people using financial means) and at worst....it does the same and also creates imbalance in the game, regardless of how small, based on someones financial status and not focused on their skills or commitment of time. Don't we already have plenty of that in the real world? Must we ALSO have it in our games?
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL..... All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That way, they get what they want, and the rest of the people who actually want to play the game....can continue to earn their perks by playing the game. To mix those two preferences, does nothing but at best...form an "upper" and "lower" class "society" (yes, even if the differences are cosmetic, it separates people using financial means) and at worst....it does the same and also creates imbalance in the game, regardless of how small, based on someones financial status and not focused on their skills or commitment of time. Don't we already have plenty of that in the real world? Must we ALSO have it in our games?
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
If the game is good, I would pay a premium, in other words more than the standard 14.95, for a server with NO RmT.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing.
Not to people who are selling...
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons.
If they still share the same game world economy, his other issues are still valid.
If they dont, then how is it an MMO?
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
aka "cheating".
You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
I don't think RMT will kill any game.
I agree...it wont die, it will just wither and drift back to the fringes of the MMO community. Just like F2P games are now.
Not saying that there isnt a market for RMT, just that it is far from mainstream and that most (the vast majority of) MMO players would not tolerate it. At least not in the west.
So yeah, RMT will affect you in some way but from what I have observed in WOW, even if the effect is negative, no one notices or care about it.
...as long as the developers keep it illegal. If they legitimize it in the game, thats a whole nother story.
If so, you may as well ignore it. Sure, some guildmate buying 5000 gold is not fair to you, but so is I give my son's char 5000 gold. The world is not fair.
Thats my response to the people complaining about no RMT as well. Majority rules. Sorry.
To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services.
Of course we do...we can go to another MMO. And if RMT is implemented in a mainstream MMO, we will. Watch.
What is fairer than RMT?
A level playing field where people cannot buy their way up the food chain. That is what is fairer than RMT.
A game is not about fairness, its about fun.
The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Fairness is what makes it fun, which is why Mainstream MMOs in the west do not use the RMT model. And why they wont in the future.
Chess with a senior (sometimes with handicaps) is not about fairness, its about fun. What fairness? equal chance to win?
Equal variables for all players. A level playing field.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing.
Not to people who are selling...
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers. Since we are both buyers & sellers in the game. It is a wash. Plus, i would say more game items is always good. So there is more rewards for everyone.
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons.
If they still share the same game world economy, his other issues are still valid.
If they dont, then how is it an MMO?
Uh? The fact that they share the same world economy have no bearing on the issue of lack of mobs. If i am selling frozen orbs from instance boss drops, i am sharing an economy with all the other players. However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs. I can always find him.
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
aka "cheating".
You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
The point is not whether it is desirable or "right". The point is that it is prevalent and there is really nothing anyone can do about it. It is quite different from rape in the sense that most people do not have a strong opinion against it. It is more like POT than rape.
I don't think RMT will kill any game.
I agree...it wont die, it will just wither and drift back to the fringes of the MMO community. Just like F2P games are now.
Not saying that there isnt a market for RMT, just that it is far from mainstream and that most (the vast majority of) MMO players would not tolerate it. At least not in the west.
I highly doubt how fringe it is. Of course none of us have any real data. For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold. Even in a anti-RMT website like this one, there are quite a few who have. And that fact that there are so many WOW gold company, even when it is "against policy" (note that it is not illegal), says something about the size of the market.
To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services. Of course we do...we can go to another MMO. And if RMT is implemented in a mainstream MMO, we will. Watch.
It already did on SOE games. Are the actually player base dropping much?
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers.
um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
It is a wash.
No, it is not a wash. Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation.
Uh? The fact that they share the same world economy have no bearing on the issue of lack of mobs.
If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game.
Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it.
However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs.
Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
You: 3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
Me: aka "cheating". You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
The point is not whether it is desirable or "right". The point is that it is prevalent and there is really nothing anyone can do about it.
I disagree. I think it would happen more often if it were legitimized. So I dont want to see it legitimized, regardless of how often illegal RMT occurs.
It is quite different from rape in the sense that most people do not have a strong opinion against it
Yeah, this thread is now on page 23 because no one has a strong opinion against RMT. uh huh.
I highly doubt how fringe it is.
I keep asking for mainstream examples here, and the most anyone can give me are things like costume parts. That isnt RMT in the context of this thread.
If you cannot cite any mainstream western MMOs that use RMT, then yeah, its fringe.
Of course none of us have any real data.
We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold.
The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
Even in a anti-RMT website like this one
This website isnt anti-RMT. They advertise RMT games on here. They have at least one columnist who creams himself over the idea of RMT in his columns. The fact that they allow RMT haters like me to spew hate on threads doesnt make the site anti-RMT.
It already did on SOE games.
Source please. Give me an example of an SOE game where the developer sells weapons/resources to players for cash that significantly affect the balance of the game.
To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services. Of course we do...we can go to another MMO. And if RMT is implemented in a mainstream MMO, we will. Watch.
It already did on SOE games. Are the actually player base dropping much?
No one can know that except SOE. All you can do is speculate. SOE doesn't release player numbers. I can cast my one vote for never returning to Everquest though because of this. That is a fact.
If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game. Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it.
Can you list a few of the F2P games where people can buy powerful weapons?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Me: If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game. Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it.
Can you list a few of the F2P games where people can buy powerful weapons?
That is called a Straw Man. Please highlight the part of my quote where I reference F2P games.
I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post.
Me: If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game. Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it. Can you list a few of the F2P games where people can buy powerful weapons? That is called a Straw Man. Please highlight the part of my quote where I reference F2P games. I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post.
But that was the example you cited. no? If such a situation does not exist, then wouldn't that be the straw man you have set up to arguing against?
So, if you don't want to answer that, then we'll move on to your next statement which was that RMT will result in an imbalanced player economy.
If your argument is that illegal RMT causes imbalance, then it's kind of a moot point as the majority of people already feel that way on both sides of the fence.
Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game (since you seem to not want to use the industry standard term of F2P for them) and it is causing an imbalance in the economy?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Comments
I don't comprehend this attitude in the least. EVERYTHING affects everyone in the game, regardless of thier desire to let it or not.
No everything doesn't affect everyone. In fact the only thing that does affect you absolutely are changes the devs make. What one person does or doesn't do, does not affect me. They could have their uber sword of god slaying, doesn't make a difference to me, market spam - channel I can ignore it, or turn it off. The way people play will only affect you if you choose to let it.
Whether it's in EQ where people with enough gold can hire mercenaries, or WoW where someone buys there character with whatever equipment. Chances are I won't ever be grouping with that person or probably ever even see them to CoH where people buy all the legal games packs or buy illegal billions of influence, to Istaria where someone pays somene else to do all the work for them. My gameplay is not affected even for a moment. And thats because how I choose to play the game is completely independent of those people.
I have no desire to keep up with the joneses. I have my goals and thats all that matters in a game I am paying for.
Venge Sunsoar
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons. There is NEVER a lack of mobs. And respawn rate is fast enough in most games (WOW in particular) that it is NOT an issue. I suppose it will be an issue if everyone wants to farm some mobs in open world but since most of the end-game farming can be done in instances, i don't see a problem.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing. That balances out inflation (lower prices if suppy is abundance) and get more good items into the hands of players.
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT. Anyone who knows how to use google can buy gold in WOW in less than 15 min. The game is still wildly popular. I don't think RMT will kill any game.
So yeah, RMT will affect you in some way but from what I have observed in WOW, even if the effect is negative, no one notices or care about it. If so, you may as well ignore it. Sure, some guildmate buying 5000 gold is not fair to you, but so is I give my son's char 5000 gold. The world is not fair.
First thanks for the attempted insults without even reading what I repeatedly said. I said I strongly object to RMT with illegal gold farmers. I have NO STRONG FEELINGS about RMT from the original developer. So stop putting words in my mouth. Or claim that I am an employee of RMT. For all I can guess you might actually be a RMT firm, trying to create negative propaganda just to bring people' s attention to RMT. Come on, can we stop alleged and conspiracy theories after losing a debate?
Did I said RMT is good? I said it does not affect my game play, so I do not see why I need to have strong views. That equates good? I just said your vehement and irrational crusade against RMT is groundless. It does not improve gameplay as I see it. It only smell jealousy. I also do not agree that 24/7 gamers deserve better treatment from games, neither better loot nor access to restricted content. I actually think that some of the 24/7 gamers are social leechers.
So pls learn to read and understand what I said and stop putting words in my mouth.
LoLz mate when did I lose this argument, Your post are all over the place, and the only thing you do is bash people that do not agree with you. You havent shown us any strong points WHY RMT would work better then P2P. And the social aspect of people getting hooked, on spending to mush money in the chash shops dosent seam to have enterd your mind, or even bother you in the slightest. Many people are weak (children especially) who many of these games target. Im against Gambling in general and selling alcohol to underaged people. My argument have always been that RMT Is a bad business, Targeted at a Teenage audience, who migh not have the life experiance to controll thiere shoping habbits
You say that I am on a Irrational crusade against RMT. I think its fairly rational to voice once objection against a system that in the wrong hands could prove catastrophic to certain people and families. You said its catastrophic to someone, but you offer NO proof. I dare not guess how castrophic it is to whoever, so I only look at myself and tell you, NO it does not affect me. As far as I can see, games cannot hardly be catastrophic to rational ppl.
Now you might counter me and say im seeing it all in Black, and the RMT is not like this. But there are serveral cases where Kidds have gotten exploited by these games. Ok, there are cases where kids are exploited over the online chat rooms, so online chat rooms are catastrohpic. There are ppl who killed themselves drinking milk, so milk is catastrophic. There are ppl who die in plane crashes, so planes are catastrohpic. Come on, everyone who breathes eventually dies, so breathing is catastrophic.
Now your argument always comes back to YOU; It dose not effect YOUR game play, It dosent bother YOU that people spend IRL money on virtual items. Who am I to judgment how RMT affect others. You are running a crusade on behalf of everyone, but you hardly know how many agrees with you. I can only talk for myself, but you are trying to pretend you represent everyone.
But this thread isent called "Do RMT bother Orthedos" This thread is about RMT is good or bad, I said it does not affect me, so it is NOT bad for me. I am humble, I only talk about myself, and I make it clear it is RMT from legal developer.
Many have voiced there concerns about RMT and you have still to show us WHY its any good. Instead you say that we are Irrationall Crusaders, that have not a leg to stand on. There are voices, I hear, you are one of them. There are also voices saying RMT is no big deal, I am one of them. We heard each other, and I come to dismiss you b/c you offer no proof apart from zealous fanatism.
-Balance issues
-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money Whose view of fairness? I object to your view of fairness, as I do not see why ppl who play a game 24/7 need be rewarded more. I see no fairness at all in any way of allocation. It is just a game. RMT is not more no less fair than any other rules.
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know) So rewarding 24/7 risk encouraging ppl to grow addicted playing games. I rather have ppl work and earn money to pay for game items than skip work, skip schools to camp for the same items. Of course, there are lots of scenarios, we have yet to provide any solid evidence. I am just saying you lack solid evidence suggestion that addiction will be a general phenomena.
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs. What does that have to do with RMT? The underaged will also lose their life playing 24/7. Supervision of the underaged belongs to the family and parent's purview.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future? What morale, same for your fairness argument above. Don't bring your bible to me. Stop preaching, you are talking like the churchman.
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners. First says who it is only the kids who are buying. Second, says who its daddy's credit card. Stop making up stories and preach. Bring on the evidence. Shgw us solid statistics, not imaginary stories out of your own bible.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point. A few imaginary stories or totally fabricated ideas to prove what? Fairness? Morale? Oh come on. That is why I say you are losing your argument.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population. You might call me a Crusader, or an Irrational RMT hater. But I see the bigger picture here. If you took a step back and looked at the potential ramification of what the RMT industry migth do to the genre, I think you would understand that we THE Crusaders DO have a POINT to our arguments.
In closing read my recap below:
Are you forced to play games with RMT from developers? If not why do you need to play? If you do not play move on.
Are there no other choices in terms of games? Can you find games without RMT from developers?
What are games for? Leisure or morale/fairness? Who are you to levy your standard of fairness on games?
If you are worried about social impact, cool, go put up comprehensive studies with valid coverage. Empty statements involving the few words "kids" "daddy's credit card" are not statistics nor evidence. Just random alphabets.
Are you a developer? If you are, refrain from RMT if you hate that business model. If you are not a developer, stop buying from developers offering RMT options. That is it. That is your right as a buyer. The seller has the right to sell with RMT options so long as it does not breach the law. That is HIS FREEDOM. Who the hell are you rambling here? I do not understand you, the developers won't hear you. All futile.
If you have a case, establish it in solid evidence backed by verifiable studies. Then find ways to channel your ideas to people in the business. So far I see you have no case, no evidence, not even a coherent argument. Just a lot of passion, sincerity BUT nothing that matters when it comes to business decision.
All futile.
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
No it does not affect me. There is no illusion about it. It does not change my attitude my belief, my actions, my thought processes or the way I game at all - therefore it does not affect me unless I choose to let it affect me. Ignoring it is a choice and if I can ignore a problem than it does not affect me.
You are mistaking somethign affecting me for something existing. Many things exist that do not affect me. Same with most RMT. RMT or swords do not create inflation, a game economy that enables unlimited gold to be made and very little of it taken away creates inflation. This only affects me IF I choose to buy something on the market and I rarely do, crafting and drops are good enough for me. There are more than enough mobs with fast enough spawn rates not even counting instances so scarcity doesn't exist.
RMT does not determine subs or game resouces, game design and marketing determine subs and resources. But once again if the game design is good and mobs spawn quick enough, how other people does not affect me.
So one more time the only things in a game that absolutely affect you are the devs. Everything else is your choice. I am only affected by something if it causes me to behave, think, act... differently, and this is completely up to me.
Venge Sunsoar
Orthedos you always come back to comparing 24/7 playing with RMT. Where have you seen me make a POST that I say that 24/7 playing is a healthy lifestyle. Where have I said that I think this is a good thing?
When I speak of games like Entropida universe and other Korean FULL out RMT games im not throwing out statments. Most of my experince comes from playing these games. As I explained before I made a living on some of them thru college. But as long as there is a Winner there have to be losers. Money dosent grow on trees. So for those 3-4 years I made money others had to lose money. Now in Europe there are serveral cases where the RMT have been brought up both on the News and in courts. We are now talking about RMT games that use phone bills to pay. so little kidds could call in and be charged. They did this behind thier parants backs. Now you might think this is okey I dont.
Iv always been good with numbers, now some people are and others are not. This gives me an advantage over people when we are talking games like Poker and Chess for example. None of my friends wants to play with me anyomre as I beat them 8 out of 10 times in Poker and never lose to them in Chess. You still have the luck factor in Poker but a superior mathematical skill gives you an advantage. This has proven to work for me in other online games also, like the RMT once where crunching numbers on the Market might Win the day. Thru the years iv come to dislike gambling as I have seen first hand how mush damge it can cause on a personal level to people who cant handle it. RMTs are the same, most of my friends and I have made money. But I also know people who have lost money. And now we are talking 10-15 thousand dollars per person, no small figures. RMTs are good for people that can control thiere economy, have a good economic sense and a sound knowledge of business practices. Those are the winners, but these games also have a lot of average Joes playing, and most of them wont stand a chans... In a competetive enviorment against people that are both street smart and have superior economic skills.
Now I think you personaly are smart enough not to go flat broke playing RMT games, but there will always be a certain % that arnt. Im saying that the more people who get into RMT the more money will change hands. There will be more winners but also alot more losers. Just like in Poker only the TOP players will be making good money and the masses will often lose more then they get back.
But try to stay on topic and not use the 24/7 gaming as some sort of counter argument to why we should use RMT. Both are a waste in my book.
Ps: the reason im rambling is that My point is to show as many people/potential consumers of these games why they should not play them. If the RMT genre gets no costomers it will slowly fade away... Im doing the same as any who stand against something, be it a prohibition against drugs, trafficking, Crime and gambling. You might not like that im against RMT games, you might not understand it. But I see it as a moral calling to inform and give my side off the coin.
If just one person thinks twice before getting into these games after reading my posts it will be worth it.
How about answer the questions I raised?
What are the rights of a customer? What are the rights of a supplier. Are you a supplier or customer? I understand that you are a customer, and not a supplier, so your views are just what you want from a game provider, nothing more. I do not feel that your concern is worth the trouble. To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services. If a producer offer RMT options and it is not against the law, it is ok with me. Whether I would play the game or not depends on gameplay, RMT is not the one and only deciding factor.
You are good in numbers, that means squat. You need to demonstrate you have indeed a case of national importance in order to mobilise people to support you. Your personal views about fairness is nothing, just your view. What is fairer than RMT? Nothing. A game is not about fairness, its about fun. Chess with a senior (sometimes with handicaps) is not about fairness, its about fun. What fairness? equal chance to win? Go play dice.
You have tried to show me your argument, I see no substance there, just pure zeal. You keeps saying RMT hurts your gameplay, I do not feel so. You keep raising the banner of fairness which I failed to see the relevance. Then you try to compare RMT (from legal developer) with drug trafficking. Oh dear why not suggest to me that RMT hurts as much as mass murder or racial genicide? You see that as a moral obligation, that is why I say yes you are sincere, you act with religious fanatism and zeal. You are running a crusade. You do not convince me.
PERIOD. You are not wrong, your view is yours. I am not convinced and I see no rational argument besides passion, heat and zeal. That is my verdict, all along.
Can you explain to me how anything in a MMO that can be introduced RMT wise could be “against the law”? Otherwise your first paragraph is just a very long way of saying ‘any RMT’s introduced are fine by me.’
We do not need a case of ‘national importance’ to state our position and ask those of like views to join us in giving RMT’s and F2P the dressing down they deserve.
Fairness is part of fun, if a game is not fair it is not fun.
Anyone who has played a MMO to end game knows that the end game is where a lot of the polish of the MMO disappears. What is the point of paying to quickly reach a less satisfying, less fun part of the game? Paying to skip content is stupidity of the highest order.
If this does not make sense to you I will be happy to elaborate, but hopefully it does.
I do not see RMT to be worth the trouble you are creating. I do not have issues so long as illegal gold sellers are weeded out.
That does not translate to rushing to the end game. After all, you can rush to the end game by buying, you can rush to the end game by playing 24/7. Fact is, those who pay are not likely to be playing 24/7, so the winner for the race to the end game is .... you bet? Those who play 24/7. But I really wonder what the hell are you doing, why are you so agitated with the way people play their own damn games? Why is it such a big issue for you when someone reaching the end game faster than you desire? Are you a bit too nosy?
Likewise, why don't you focus on assessing how much fun you derive from each game? Why all the nosy busybody behaviour, talking endlessly about RMT. Do you want to play games for your own leisure, or you play games trying to dictate the lifestyle and playstyle of others? If I find fun, enuf fun, from a game, I hardly notice if Mr A bought his sword, or Mr B pay for power levelling.
Fact is, the only thing I smell strongly is jealousy. You do not want people to get to the end game so fast, you do not want people to buy the sword you are unable or unwilling to pay for. Oh well, nothing I can do about jealousy.
Go play the games you like, and relax.
I do not see RMT to be worth the trouble you are creating. I do not have issues so long as illegal gold sellers are weeded out.
That does not translate to rushing to the end game. After all, you can rush to the end game by buying, you can rush to the end game by playing 24/7. Fact is, those who pay are not likely to be playing 24/7, so the winner for the race to the end game is .... you bet? Those who play 24/7. But I really wonder what the hell are you doing, why are you so agitated with the way people play their own damn games? Why is it such a big issue for you when someone reaching the end game faster than you desire? Are you a bit too nosy?
Likewise, why don't you focus on assessing how much fun you derive from each game? Why all the nosy busybody behaviour, talking endlessly about RMT. Do you want to play games for your own leisure, or you play games trying to dictate the lifestyle and playstyle of others? If I find fun, enuf fun, from a game, I hardly notice if Mr A bought his sword, or Mr B pay for power levelling.
Fact is, the only thing I smell strongly is jealousy. You do not want people to get to the end game so fast, you do not want people to buy the sword you are unable or unwilling to pay for. Oh well, nothing I can do about jealousy.
Go play the games you like, and relax.
hmmm.. Been reading thru your post again and I think you and I might have run into a failure to comunicate. Might be that its my lacking English skills. or the fact that I just did a poor jobb.
So I give it one more try. When I speak of RMT I speak of games where everything cost Real money and the money ingame can be put into play in the Real world. Like Entropida universe http://www.entropiauniverse.com/entropiauniverse/. Now this to me is on the far Edge of sane gamplay. And yes people have spent hundreads of thousands of dollars in that game. Is this the Future of online gaming, I hope to god not.
And the best way is to put people of these games long before it gets to the point where we live our lives in computer games. "OMG the stock has gone down in my online game, dam there goes my pension".
Lets make a stand right here Orthedos, Cash games while they might look to save you time, will in the end come back to hunt you...
I understand you dont like 24/7 gamers and we can agree that its not a healthy way of playing. But last I looked time is free. Items in cash games are not, and forcing you to get the best medpack and latest gun to be able to hunt might dry out your bank account. And in a full cash game you cant even get a bad gun or sword if you dont open your wallet.
I understand you dont like illegal gold sellers, who dose?. But cash/RMT games or not the right way to combat them, that system just lets them make the money they make now Legaly.
So our Arms are open Othedos lets all agree that RMT done in a bad way is NOT GOOD IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM
Certainly you can ignore it, but you are still affected by it. The sword of god slaying does make a difference to you, even if you choose to ignore it.
It can create inflation, it can create a lack of mobs, it can create an abundance of items in the market place, it can imbalance PvP. All of these things affect you in the game, whether you want them to or not. It can determine how popular the game is, and in turn how many subs, which can determine resources for updates and expansions.
You can give yourself the illusion that your game play is completely independent of those people, but it simply is not.
Whether you decide to keep up with the Jones or not, you will be in a certain category of the game, which is an affect. Your perceptions have nothign to do with it.
No it does not affect me. There is no illusion about it. It does not change my attitude my belief, my actions, my thought processes or the way I game at all - therefore it does not affect me unless I choose to let it affect me. Ignoring it is a choice and if I can ignore a problem than it does not affect me.
You are mistaking somethign affecting me for something existing. Many things exist that do not affect me. Same with most RMT. RMT or swords do not create inflation, a game economy that enables unlimited gold to be made and very little of it taken away creates inflation. This only affects me IF I choose to buy something on the market and I rarely do, crafting and drops are good enough for me. There are more than enough mobs with fast enough spawn rates not even counting instances so scarcity doesn't exist.
RMT does not determine subs or game resouces, game design and marketing determine subs and resources. But once again if the game design is good and mobs spawn quick enough, how other people does not affect me.
So one more time the only things in a game that absolutely affect you are the devs. Everything else is your choice. I am only affected by something if it causes me to behave, think, act... differently, and this is completely up to me.
Venge Sunsoar
I will agree to disagree and in any case it is a moot point. You will play RMT games and enjoy them, and I will avoid them like the plague and give my money to subscription based games.
As long as we both have games to play that we enjoy, all is well and good.
The only thing I'm looking forward to at the moment is TOR. I hope it's well made, with lots of polish, and I expect Bioware to deliver. I also hope they don't ruin the game (from my perspective) with RMT.If they do, there's another RMT game for you to play, and I'll wait for a good P2P game for me to play.
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL.....
All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else. That way, they get what they want, and the rest of the people who actually want to play the game....can continue to earn their perks by playing the game.
To mix those two preferences, does nothing but at best...form an "upper" and "lower" class "society" (yes, even if the differences are cosmetic, it separates people using financial means) and at worst....it does the same and also creates imbalance in the game, regardless of how small, based on someones financial status and not focused on their skills or commitment of time. Don't we already have plenty of that in the real world? Must we ALSO have it in our games?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
Optimal solution and not sure why SOE did not take this route.
If the game is good, I would pay a premium, in other words more than the standard 14.95, for a server with NO RmT.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing.
Not to people who are selling...
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons.
If they still share the same game world economy, his other issues are still valid.
If they dont, then how is it an MMO?
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
aka "cheating".
You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
I don't think RMT will kill any game.
I agree...it wont die, it will just wither and drift back to the fringes of the MMO community. Just like F2P games are now.
Not saying that there isnt a market for RMT, just that it is far from mainstream and that most (the vast majority of) MMO players would not tolerate it. At least not in the west.
So yeah, RMT will affect you in some way but from what I have observed in WOW, even if the effect is negative, no one notices or care about it.
...as long as the developers keep it illegal. If they legitimize it in the game, thats a whole nother story.
If so, you may as well ignore it. Sure, some guildmate buying 5000 gold is not fair to you, but so is I give my son's char 5000 gold. The world is not fair.
Thats my response to the people complaining about no RMT as well. Majority rules. Sorry.
To me, as another customer, RMT is no biggie. None of us has a say on how a producer price his services.
Of course we do...we can go to another MMO. And if RMT is implemented in a mainstream MMO, we will. Watch.
What is fairer than RMT?
A level playing field where people cannot buy their way up the food chain. That is what is fairer than RMT.
A game is not about fairness, its about fun.
The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Fairness is what makes it fun, which is why Mainstream MMOs in the west do not use the RMT model. And why they wont in the future.
Chess with a senior (sometimes with handicaps) is not about fairness, its about fun. What fairness? equal chance to win?
Equal variables for all players. A level playing field.
On the matter of RMT there is only one way that I find it acceptable AT ALL.....
All of the subscribers that choose to play with an RMT type setup, should all be on servers with each other, and no one else.
That would be acceptable to me as well. If the RMT players are segregated to separate servers, I could live with that.
2) Abundance of ITEMS in the marketplace is a GOOD thing.
Not to people who are selling...
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers. Since we are both buyers & sellers in the game. It is a wash. Plus, i would say more game items is always good. So there is more rewards for everyone.
1) Lack of mobs is an non-issue with instancing of dungeons.
If they still share the same game world economy, his other issues are still valid.
If they dont, then how is it an MMO?
Uh? The fact that they share the same world economy have no bearing on the issue of lack of mobs. If i am selling frozen orbs from instance boss drops, i am sharing an economy with all the other players. However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs. I can always find him.
3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
aka "cheating".
You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
The point is not whether it is desirable or "right". The point is that it is prevalent and there is really nothing anyone can do about it. It is quite different from rape in the sense that most people do not have a strong opinion against it. It is more like POT than rape.
I don't think RMT will kill any game.
I agree...it wont die, it will just wither and drift back to the fringes of the MMO community. Just like F2P games are now.
Not saying that there isnt a market for RMT, just that it is far from mainstream and that most (the vast majority of) MMO players would not tolerate it. At least not in the west.
I highly doubt how fringe it is. Of course none of us have any real data. For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold. Even in a anti-RMT website like this one, there are quite a few who have. And that fact that there are so many WOW gold company, even when it is "against policy" (note that it is not illegal), says something about the size of the market.
It already did on SOE games. Are the actually player base dropping much?
True. But then it balances out. RMT (assumes it really creates an abundance of items) will help buyers and hurt sellers. No RMT will help sellers and hurt buyers.
um...why exactly? How will buyers be hurt with no RMT?
It is a wash.
No, it is not a wash. Because RMT is injecting extra stuff into the game that was never earned (mined/crafted/whatever). It was just bought with cash. The economy is no longer based on in-game player actions...now there are external variables involved that will disrupt it and trigger inflation.
Uh? The fact that they share the same world economy have no bearing on the issue of lack of mobs.
If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game.
Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it.
However, since this boss is in an instance, there will NEVER be a lack of mobs.
Which is great assuming the game uses instanced dungeons. But you still share the same economy if you are selling to other players...RMT will still wreck the player economy if you can get rare loot easier than everyone else because you bought in-game weapons that everyone else doesnt have.
You: 3) Case in point, WOW has no official RMT but a lot of "unofficial" RMT.
Me: aka "cheating". You dont reduce the number of rapes in the US by making rape legal.
The point is not whether it is desirable or "right". The point is that it is prevalent and there is really nothing anyone can do about it.
I disagree. I think it would happen more often if it were legitimized. So I dont want to see it legitimized, regardless of how often illegal RMT occurs.
It is quite different from rape in the sense that most people do not have a strong opinion against it
Yeah, this thread is now on page 23 because no one has a strong opinion against RMT. uh huh.
I highly doubt how fringe it is.
I keep asking for mainstream examples here, and the most anyone can give me are things like costume parts. That isnt RMT in the context of this thread.
If you cannot cite any mainstream western MMOs that use RMT, then yeah, its fringe.
Of course none of us have any real data.
We know that none of the current mainstream MMOs use the RMT model (in the context of this discussion). Thats real data.
For example, what is the percentage of the players on WOW that have purchased gold.
The fact that people cheat in Wow does not make WoW an RMT game. You cannot legally purchase gold in WoW. Thuh end.
Even in a anti-RMT website like this one
This website isnt anti-RMT. They advertise RMT games on here. They have at least one columnist who creams himself over the idea of RMT in his columns. The fact that they allow RMT haters like me to spew hate on threads doesnt make the site anti-RMT.
It already did on SOE games.
Source please. Give me an example of an SOE game where the developer sells weapons/resources to players for cash that significantly affect the balance of the game.
It already did on SOE games. Are the actually player base dropping much?
No one can know that except SOE. All you can do is speculate. SOE doesn't release player numbers. I can cast my one vote for never returning to Everquest though because of this. That is a fact.
Can you list a few of the F2P games where people can buy powerful weapons?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Me: If someone can buy the uber-sword-of-100-deaths and start hacking away at mob spawns and clearing them out, yeah, that does affect other people in the game. Thats just assuming the mobs are normal spawns...what if they are dropping rare loot or whatever? Now the guy with the uber-sword-of-100-deaths has an advantage over everyone else to get it.
Can you list a few of the F2P games where people can buy powerful weapons?
That is called a Straw Man. Please highlight the part of my quote where I reference F2P games.
I was talking about RMT in general. RMT would result in an imbalanced player economy, for the reasons I mentioned in that post.
But that was the example you cited. no? If such a situation does not exist, then wouldn't that be the straw man you have set up to arguing against?
So, if you don't want to answer that, then we'll move on to your next statement which was that RMT will result in an imbalanced player economy.
If your argument is that illegal RMT causes imbalance, then it's kind of a moot point as the majority of people already feel that way on both sides of the fence.
Can you give examples of MMOs where RMT is part of the game (since you seem to not want to use the industry standard term of F2P for them) and it is causing an imbalance in the economy?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?