I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I think you 5-6 people that are so PRO RMT should sign up for Entropida universe today, spend a few thousand dollars then come back to us here and tell us what you think..... Seriously RMT is a bad thing, its not good in anny game as real money transactions gives people an edge that do have more money IRL. ANd its also feeds the smart and productive people that can make a living off the stupid people who like to spend real money for virtual gods. I play EvE for free I have done this for years, becuase people want to sell game time cards and get ISK. All the no lifers that you RMT suporters seam to hate, and in some twisted way you think you will beat by legalicing RMT on a grander scale are all playing for free to. So what you will be doing is letting the leachers that you call them have MMORPG as thiere new JOBB. If this is what you want continue with your campaign, if not stop this foolish argument right away. If we want people to make a living playing games then RMT is the way to go. IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down. But iv said this before and some of you just keep trolling it up that you only care about how fun the game is and what you get out of it. BULLSHIT! you think you will beat the no lifers if RMT is standard in all MMORPGs, Im sorry but you will just be paying thier monthly paychek, that you cant see this is I will never understand.
Yes, how dare we "only care about how fun the game is" and what we get out of it. What an absolutely ridiculous concept! Games aren't here for us to have fun, they're supposed to be... hmmmm... I guess I don't know what games are for.
I think EVE Online laks a bit in the fighting department
Oh, I disgaree. One of the things I like about Eve is that they have been very agressive in fighting ISK sellers. It's very easy to ignore them as well.
CoH is doing a decent job as well...I never seen spams in chat anymore, though I do still get a lot of in-game e-mails. But they are very easy to report and ignore.
I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it. Well I prefer it as if I can afford to have items that look different becuase I can chuck couch change away online then it sucks to be you I guess. PS My fridge is full.
Enjoy swiping that credit card. Credit card swiping makes for fun gameplay.
I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
There was no hatred. I explained what I thought about RMT games and explained why they go against everything a video game was. Labeling other's arguments hatred doesn't make your argument correct. There are many folks that do not want their MMORPG game to become more than a fun video game. When you introduce real life cash for items in a shop then you have brought real life into it. My character is the one in game obtaining items through his or hers adventures. How would my character get an item via me swiping a credit card in an rpg world? Games are the gameplay. If you purchase digital items without gameplay then that is the anti game.
I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
Do you honestly believe that if people play an RMT game, and see how it REALLY works, they would like it?
If not, then perha[s their hatred is not based in myth and misinformation.
I think most have played a F2P game. I'ts pretty easy to download one and give it a whirl.
Do you honestly believe that if people play an RMT game, and see how it REALLY works, they would like it?
How does it "really" work, Imhotepp?
This is usually where I would type out a wiseass response, but that's really not going to do any good here (not that it ever does, but whatever). I'll post what I think is how it really works and I really would like to hear your thoughts on where I am missing the mark.
I think that developers know that 15% of the players will actually monetize the game. That 15% has disposable income and is more than willing to spend it for a variety of reasons. In order to keep the other 85% around, the game has to be made so that it is fun and engaging on a free level as well, seeing as the developers already know that group will not be spending any money. Since you can't draw blood from a stone, there's no point in really trying to get much money from the 85%, so most of the efforts are focused on offering purchasable items and services for the 15%. The 85% actually has a value to the devs, because they are bodies in the game. They fill the game world, and a thriving game world keeps that 15% around longer. An example of this is the recent change in DDO to a free/VIP business model. To keep the VIPs paying, they are bringing in throngs of other players for the VIPs to always have people to group with, show off their things to and socialize with.
I also think that contributes a good bit to (but is not the only reason) why F2P games are often digital download with low system reqs. The barrier to entry is kept as low as possible and the accessibility is kept as high as possible so that the throngs of free players fill the game world.
I think this isn't an MMO thing and that maybe this is done in real life, too. It's possible that "No Cover Charge For the Ladies" night isn't just because all club owners have a soft spot for being generous to women, but because they know that if there is a metric crapton of TnA all over the place, guys will come in and spend gobs of cash to try to impress them, try to score or both.
There is no hidden cost for the ladies except maybe some STDs here or there but that has nothing to do with the club owner and lots to do with five Long Island Iced Teas and a few poor decisions. The ladies are free content for the guys with money to burn, The more chicks you get and the higher the caliber of them, the fatter the wallets that roll in to throw money around.
I think devs who make F2P games have a vested interest in making the free players feel welcome and at home because they are part of the content that is being offered to the 15%.
I think the events and festivals and seasonal quests and little trinkets thrown at F2P players are solid examples of this vested interest in providing fun and engaging content for that 85% so that they can bank on the 15%.
Now, there definitely are some crap F2P games out there that are trying to cash in on every player. No doubt about that. If people want to play those, more power to them. That, however, is not the only approach and it certainly isn't the approach that has proven either palatable to the players or profitable to the devs.
That's just what I think. I could be completely wrong, but I have a feeling I might be right on target here.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Do you honestly believe that if people play an RMT game, and see how it REALLY works, they would like it?
How does it "really" work, Imhotepp?
This is usually where I would type out a wiseass response, but that's really not going to do any good here (not that it ever does, but whatever). I'll post what I think is how it really works and I really would like to hear your thoughts on where I am missing the mark.
I think that developers know that 15% of the players will actually monetize the game. That 15% has disposable income and is more than willing to spend it for a variety of reasons. In order to keep the other 85% around, the game has to be made so that it is fun and engaging on a free level as well, seeing as the developers already know that group will not be spending any money. Since you can't draw blood from a stone, there's no point in really trying to get much money from the 85%, so most of the efforts are focused on offering purchasable items and services for the 15%. The 85% actually has a value to the devs, because they are bodies in the game. They fill the game world, and a thriving game world keeps that 15% around longer. An example of this is the recent change in DDO to a free/VIP business model. To keep the VIPs paying, they are bringing in throngs of other players for the VIPs to always have people to group with, show off their things to and socialize with.
I also think that contributes a good bit to (but is not the only reason) why F2P games are often digital download with low system reqs. The barrier to entry is kept as low as possible and the accessibility is kept as high as possible so that the throngs of free players fill the game world.
I think this isn't an MMO thing and that maybe this is done in real life, too. It's possible that "No Cover Charge For the Ladies" night isn't just because all club owners have a soft spot for being generous to women, but because they know that if there is a metric crapton of TnA all over the place, guys will come in and spend gobs of cash to try to impress them, try to score or both.
There is no hidden cost for the ladies except maybe some STDs here or there but that has nothing to do with the club owner and lots to do with five Long Island Iced Teas and a few poor decisions. The ladies are free content for the guys with money to burn, The more chicks you get and the higher the caliber of them, the fatter the wallets that roll in to throw money around.
I think devs who make F2P games have a vested interest in making the free players feel welcome and at home because they are part of the content that is being offered to the 15%.
I think the events and festivals and seasonal quests and little trinkets thrown at F2P players are solid examples of this vested interest in providing fun and engaging content for that 85% so that they can bank on the 15%.
Now, there definitely are some crap F2P games out there that are trying to cash in on every player. No doubt about that. If people want to play those, more power to them. That, however, is not the only approach and it certainly isn't the approach that has proven either palatable to the players or profitable to the devs.
That's just what I think. I could be completely wrong, but I have a feeling I might be right on target here.
THe point was simply that most people have played F2P games, but still don't like them. I don't think it'
s merely because of a misconception or misunderstanding about how they work.
They actually tried it, don't like it. Either you like a certain type of game or you don't, and a lot of people, myself included, don't like RMT games.
I really don't like the idea of RMT. Honestly, I don't like the direction most MMO's are going, but I can't do anything except refuse to purchase and complain on a forum.
THe point was simply that most people have played F2P games, but still don't like them. I don't think it' s merely because of a misconception or misunderstanding about how they work. They actually tried it, don't like it. Either you like a certain type of game or you don't, and a lot of people, myself included, don't like RMT games.
I never said anything regarding people that tried games and didn't like them - to each their own. My statement was specifically about the people that post absolute misinformation and adamantly rebuke any business model outside of subscription play. Here's a few quotes to clarify:
"If the game involve money then it is not a game anymore, it's all about money."
"I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat." (Calling a game rule that one doesn't like a "cheat" is strange, no? If you don't like the rule, play a different game. It's like telling softball players they are cheating because they are allowed to use aluminum bats and the leagues you like aren't. )
"The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.
Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself." (The myth that you need to buy your way through the games to compete. A contention that has been challenged several times and there haven't been any posts replying with the list of F2P MMOs where that is the case.)
"RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players."
"IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down."
"F2P is a fringe market."
"This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that."
"-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know)
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future?
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population."
"Developers that choose to allow RMT are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will take their MMO seriously. At least not in the US." (Stated with complete disregard for the endless facts and data that support everything to the contrary.)
"Thats the whole draw of RMT in the first place...a way to compete buy buying your way to the goal rather than earning it." (Another example of a myth or misinformation repeated by those adamantly against RMT.)
That's just from two pages. There's plenty more and a lot of really juicy ones, too. The point is that the people who have this zero tolerance policy for RMT have a lot in common - myths and misinformation.
When you tell them that it is within the rules of game X, they respond with "Well, to me, it's cheating."
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
They say that RMT destroys the economy of a game, but when you provide information and historical data to the contrary they will refuse to believe it.
To clarify for you, I have not said that people need to like RMT or should like it. I have not said it is better or worse than any other business model. What I HAVE said is that many of the people who have stated an unconditional dislike or even hatred for RMT have based it off misinformation and myth, and the worst part about it is that when you try to present the truth to them or ask them to support their position with facts they will have no part of that.
That's kinda scary. Fanatic scary.
So, you still have not answered my question, Imhotepp.You said that people would stop playing RMT MMOs if they knew how they really work. I gave you my thoughts on that. Since you brought it up, I am anxious to hear from you how RMT MMOs "really" work.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
Even if no examples can be shown, how does that invalidate the arguments against RMT?
Thats like someone saying "getting shot in the head is probably bad for your health", and then someone else saying "well, do you actually know anyone who's been shot in the head?", as if that invalidates what the first person said. Gimme a break.
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply. Even if no examples can be shown, how does that invalidate the arguments against RMT? Thats like someone saying "getting shot in the head is probably bad for your health", and then someone else saying "well, do you actually know anyone who's been shot in the head?", as if that invalidates what the first person said. Gimme a break.
Both a ridiculous and flawed example as you could easily provide plenty of data on people dying or suffering impairment from getting shot in the head.
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market, refused to acknowledge that PLEX is RMT and made up his own definition for RMT.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply. Even if no examples can be shown, how does that invalidate the arguments against RMT? Thats like someone saying "getting shot in the head is probably bad for your health", and then someone else saying "well, do you actually know anyone who's been shot in the head?", as if that invalidates what the first person said. Gimme a break.
Both a ridiculous and flawed example as you could easily provide plenty of data on people dying or suffering impairment from getting shot in the head.
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market, refused to acknowledge that PLEX is RMT and made up his own definition for RMT.
Atlantica Online, specifically the bonuses mounts give to combat. Only one mount, I believe, can be attained outside of the cash shop and it had no significate enhancements and was only temporary (though I may be wrong about the temp part).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market It is. Add up all the P2P players for all P2P MMOs, and all the F2P players, and tell me what the ratio is.
Maple Story, DOFUS, Runescape, Silkroad Online. I'll end my F2P list there. You start tallying up your subscription games and let me know when you're done.
Your biggest problem here is that you have no knowledge of the topic you are trying to discuss, and it becomes more and more apparent with each post.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I read your messy short story and you really don't have a justified reason on why RMT is bad, just that YOU don't like it.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
So gambling addiction is a MYTH then is it? If you give people the option of spending more money to get better, I will be so Bold to say that 60-70% would not be able to resist the temptation. Of those about 10% will spend what I would consider to mush. And 1-2% will get addicted to the cash shop.
In my book (im against legal gambling and alcohol, so you understand where im coming from) The RMT modle is a Disaster waiting to happen. Most of you debate here from your own point of view. You think its fun, you dont mind, if others spend to mush money its thier problem. This is a childs standpoint, a Grow-nup Understands the dangours and a Decent citizen speaks up against it.
Games like Entropida universe (where all transactions are real money transactions) and other Korean/asian F2P games that have large cash shops are not good for society. If we start to blur what is real and what is not (virtual goods do not Exist you know, they are just 1 and zeros). We are on dangrous grounds, Addiction, Making a living Working inside a virtual environment ( you might think this sounds cool, but its not) People also make a living playing poker online. But tens of thousands of people are also losing money on a daily basis, to make the small precent of good players money. The same will probably happen if we get RMT in MMOs a small precent will be living good of the masses. And some will become destituted because of thier addiction to the game they play.
As im guessing im speaking to children, that arnt that interested in world econami or world politics I will try to make this as esy as possiball. Organizations like the WTO and others controll the world market, and we have laws that govern Trading. In online games Its the COMPANY that made the game that controlls the Market, and you have no laws to protect you. Basically when you sign there agreement you are in thier hands. If Money gets involved on a larger scale you better hope to God that the COMPANY you play for have a sense of fairness. Or in that world you can get scamed (out of real money now) abused and fooled. This happens in EvE all the time and as I pointed out ISK in EvE, is real money as I can pay my subcription with it. On a larger scale RMT games will become ruthless environments where the strong prey upon the weak. Because there are no Laws to protect you, as there are if you get scamed out of your money in real life.
I have argued long and hard why I think in the long run its not good for humans to start putting value in virtual items. Look at your economic crash in the US, its based on the same thing people making money from nothing, in the End the bubble has to break!
Now you can call me a hater, and you can call me a Crusader, it dosent take away the fact that in the wrong hands and done by the wrong people, Real Money Transactions in games are a BAD THING. That have many potential risks for the consumer....
I couldn''t have asked for a better reply. Thanks, Zlayer!
But honestly now Lynx Is it a myth:
1, That People get scamed in EvE and you can use that scam ISK to pay for your subscription?
2, That in Sweden (the country I live in) RMT companies using Phone bills to pay for items have Exploited little children. Who made calls behind thier parants backs. Leaving the familys with gigantic phonebills?
3, People get addicted to games, be it poker, playing online 24/7 or just spending way to mush money on thier hobby. now time is free spending money can lead to alot of other social missfortunes, like getting evicted form your home etc..
Now in a P2P game you have a subcription, you can controll just how mush money you spend. But it an RMT games you are free to spend as mush cash as you like. Now you and me we can hopefully controll this. But alot of people cant.
Im speaking in a socialistic view point where its the state or the goverments jobb to prevent its citizens from getting Exploited. But with the Internet and international laws, we as consumers are bieng subjected to alot of new threats. One of them are the Asian RMT modual and the Swedish made Entropida Universe ( sweeds are good at making money) that focus on taking the customer for a ride and spending thier hard earned money on virtual items.
Now as our goverments cant protect us its our moral duty to speak up and stop this Bullshit. and like any good fanatic I will end with this quote:
This is where we hold them! this is where we fight! this is where they die!
THe point was simply that most people have played F2P games, but still don't like them. I don't think it' s merely because of a misconception or misunderstanding about how they work. They actually tried it, don't like it. Either you like a certain type of game or you don't, and a lot of people, myself included, don't like RMT games.
I never said anything regarding people that tried games and didn't like them - to each their own. My statement was specifically about the people that post absolute misinformation and adamantly rebuke any business model outside of subscription play. Here's a few quotes to clarify:
"If the game involve money then it is not a game anymore, it's all about money."
"I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat." (Calling a game rule that one doesn't like a "cheat" is strange, no? If you don't like the rule, play a different game. It's like telling softball players they are cheating because they are allowed to use aluminum bats and the leagues you like aren't. )
"The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.
Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself." (The myth that you need to buy your way through the games to compete. A contention that has been challenged several times and there haven't been any posts replying with the list of F2P MMOs where that is the case.)
"RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players."
"IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down."
"F2P is a fringe market."
"This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that."
"-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know)
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future?
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population."
"Developers that choose to allow RMT are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will take their MMO seriously. At least not in the US." (Stated with complete disregard for the endless facts and data that support everything to the contrary.)
"Thats the whole draw of RMT in the first place...a way to compete buy buying your way to the goal rather than earning it." (Another example of a myth or misinformation repeated by those adamantly against RMT.)
That's just from two pages. There's plenty more and a lot of really juicy ones, too. The point is that the people who have this zero tolerance policy for RMT have a lot in common - myths and misinformation.
When you tell them that it is within the rules of game X, they respond with "Well, to me, it's cheating."
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
They say that RMT destroys the economy of a game, but when you provide information and historical data to the contrary they will refuse to believe it.
To clarify for you, I have not said that people need to like RMT or should like it. I have not said it is better or worse than any other business model. What I HAVE said is that many of the people who have stated an unconditional dislike or even hatred for RMT have based it off misinformation and myth, and the worst part about it is that when you try to present the truth to them or ask them to support their position with facts they will have no part of that.
That's kinda scary. Fanatic scary.
So, you still have not answered my question, Imhotepp.You said that people would stop playing RMT MMOs if they knew how they really work. I gave you my thoughts on that. Since you brought it up, I am anxious to hear from you how RMT MMOs "really" work.
To clarify, I have not said people will stop playing RMT games if they know how they work. I have said that the majority of people stating their dislike or hatred of RMT games are not doing so from ignorance. Rather, they are doing so, from experience since it's rather easy to download a an RMT game and try it, and I think most have. Not like, I've never tried Piscachio ice cream, but I'm sure it tastes bad, but I had a spoonful of it and don't care for another.
First to answer your question, I think RMT MMOs "really work" exactly how you explained it, AND exactly how the posters you quoted from explained it as well.
I think you are arguing over semantics and opinion.
I don't think you or the posters you have quoted are saying anything different, but you are both expressing your opinions about how you feel RMT affects game play, and you can't be wrong about how you feel.
I appreciate your perspective, and I did read your entire post. It was well thought out, complete with quotes to back your position, and I think you made your point very well.
However, it's not really a factual issue, IMO.
For example, when referring to RMT "Well, to me it's cheating".
You are right, that you can't "cheat" if something is part of the rules. However, let's say we change the rules of Chess and say if your opponent looks away, it's ok to move one of his pieces. Now, technically that would not be cheating, since it's now part of the rules. But could you not see someonoe expressing themselves by saying "To me, it's cheating" meaning, I don't want to play the game with this rule, because even if tecnically then it would not be cheating it would still feel like cheating from my perspective?
I think all of the quotes you listed are the same as the example above. BOTH parties are right, from thier perspective. Like Pistachio ice cream tastes nasty, or tastes good. BOTH people could be right, from their perspective.
RMT is cheating, or RMT cannot be cheating because it's part of the game.
Or another example "Destroys the economy of the game". This depends on what you think destroys the economy of the game. You could be using the definition of "the game will no longer work to the point there is rampant inflation of one million percent, or a complete lack of money", or something game breaking like that.
Or you could mean if people can buy items with real money instead of working for them or trading for them, the economy from your perspective is broken.
Or the statement about RMT allowing you to purchase powerful items. What's "powerful"? From the P2P players any item that can give you any advantage might fall into that definition. You stated in one post you bought a hat that gives you a plus to something or another, very minor advantage. From the P2P player's perspective, this could be game breaking for them, and of compltely no consequence from your perspective. Having a game where you cannot buy "powerful items" would mean from the P2P perspective, NO ITEMS which give you ANY ADVANTAGE in game. Not one point of mana, not one hit point, not one slight advantage on any stat. Otherwise, from the P2P perspective, balance is wrecked. Admittedly from your point of view, this is not true, and the game is just fine.
So, no "misinformation or myth" in my opinion, but a different perspective on RMT and how it affects the game from your own point of view.
The only one I will say that I agree is a myth is that RMT is a fringe design, or not popular. I think it is a mainstream design model, and very popular.
Me: It is. Add up all the P2P players for all P2P MMOs, and all the F2P players, and tell me what the ratio is.
Maple Story, DOFUS, Runescape, Silkroad Online. I'll end my F2P list there.
I missed the figures showing how many people play those games. Are you saying you do not know?
If not, then how did you determine that F2P games are not a fringe market?
Your biggest problem here is that you have no knowledge of the topic you are trying to discuss
...says the guy who cannot provide subscriber figures to prove his point. Uh huh.
It is not a problem for me that you feel I do not have knowledge of the topic I am trying to discuss. You are entitled to your opinion. The fact that you feel my "lack of knowledge" is not obvious enough for you not to respond really says all that needs to be said I think.
If not, then how did you determine that F2P games are not a fringe market?
RMT is still the less common MMO model, but it is clearly growing. This is why the people against it are so anxious to make their point. Clearly many people fear that the game genre they love is changing in a way they don't like.
Personally I believe that most of those that are anti-RMT are attacking the wrong group.
I like RMT but I am NOT your enemy.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers. These people pretend that they never cheat and they want a level playing field and yet they spend, spend, spend breaking the Eula and the economy in your game.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
The ideal solution is RMT for those that want it, and non RMT for those that consider it anti-game. If I leave your game because I want RMT then you should be happy.
BTW
There is never a level playing field in any online game unless you are playing only with your friends. This is annoying I know, but the sooner you learn to accept it the more fun you will have.
...in the same way that the Green Party is the "less popular" party compared to Republicans and Democrats...
This is why the people against it are so anxious to make their point.
Those people would not include me. I merely stated an opinion, and a few people on here attacked that opinion.
Clearly many people fear that the game genre they love is changing in a way they don't like.
I personally do not share this fear. I do not believe that F2P games will ever be able to offer the same quality as P2P. Even DDO proves this...to get all the content, you have to buy it. F2P is a stripped down version of their P2P model...basically like a really good trial version.
I dont think a true F2P model is sustainable. The quality will suffer because they do not have a means of supporting the necessary staff to compete with P2P games.
The DDO example is probably as good as it is going to get for F2P. It will be an option within a P2P framework, not true F2P.
Personally I believe that most of those that are anti-RMT are attacking the wrong group.I like RMT but I am NOT your enemy.
There are no enemies. I dont want to prevent you from playing in RMT games if you want. I just dont want to play in those games with you...and I believe the vast majority of MMo players (over 70% if my poll is any indication) will do the same thing.
RMT makes the game unfair in the eyes of most MMO players IMO. That is what makes it unappealing to most people.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers.
They are being dealt with by the developers of those games. And the developers that fail to deal with them sufficiently, they will lose subscriptions because of it. Buying gold is just one form of cheating, and cheaters will always be present to some degree in all MMOs.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
You have no way of knowing how common they really are. You are making an assumption.
The ideal solution is RMT for those that want it, and non RMT for those that consider it anti-game.
The people who want RMT can move their asses over to RMT-friendly games. So I dont see the problem. There is a market (however small) that caters to them. So why pollute my game with RMT, especially if the majority of people playing that game dont want it?
If I leave your game because I want RMT then you should be happy.
If the alternative to you not cheating in "my" game is to introduce RMT into "my" game, then I would rather you just continue cheating, with the risk of getting caught. Introducing RMT (aka, legal cheating) is much worse IMO.
There is never a level playing field in any online game unless you are playing only with your friends.
Irrelevant even if true...no matter how bad it is now, introducing RMT would make it worse IMO.
This is annoying I know, but the sooner you learn to accept it the more fun you will have.
I'm already having fun now. The RMT people are the ones who want to change things. I like things the way they are already.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers.
They are being dealt with by the developers of those games. And the developers that fail to deal with them sufficiently will lose subscriptions because of it. Buying gold is just one form of cheating, and cheaters will always be present to some degree in all MMOs.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
You have no way of knowing how common they really are. You are making an assumption.
That is ignoring all the estimations and evidence. There is an estimated 500k-1M employed in Chinese gold farming business. There is a REGISTERED 6000 companies in China (registered, this is HARD data). There are estimation of average spending from $10-$90 per year per player on RMT. All point to a much better problem then you think.
Plus, Blizzard is NOT dealing with it effectively. Anyone can buy some gold easily. You can easily do an experiment to verify that. And no one is leaving WOW, at least NOT because of this. I don't think you understand the how prevalent, and the scope of illegal RMT.
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
And btw, all you have done is give your opinion and provide ZERO evidence. You said it is not a big problem. Do YOU have any evidence to back it up? All you do is to make wild guesses, and discount all the research done by others. People who extrapolate numbers from some hard data is a lot more credible than people who guesses from NOTHING.
Comments
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Yes, how dare we "only care about how fun the game is" and what we get out of it. What an absolutely ridiculous concept! Games aren't here for us to have fun, they're supposed to be... hmmmm... I guess I don't know what games are for.
"RMT" is referenced in this thread over 1200 times yet I still don't know what it stands for lol.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I think EVE Online laks a bit in the fighting department
Oh, I disgaree. One of the things I like about Eve is that they have been very agressive in fighting ISK sellers. It's very easy to ignore them as well.
CoH is doing a decent job as well...I never seen spams in chat anymore, though I do still get a lot of in-game e-mails. But they are very easy to report and ignore.
RMT - I assume means "Real Money Transaction".
Enjoy swiping that credit card. Credit card swiping makes for fun gameplay.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
There was no hatred. I explained what I thought about RMT games and explained why they go against everything a video game was. Labeling other's arguments hatred doesn't make your argument correct. There are many folks that do not want their MMORPG game to become more than a fun video game. When you introduce real life cash for items in a shop then you have brought real life into it. My character is the one in game obtaining items through his or hers adventures. How would my character get an item via me swiping a credit card in an rpg world? Games are the gameplay. If you purchase digital items without gameplay then that is the anti game.
RMT games should be labeled casino games.
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
Do you honestly believe that if people play an RMT game, and see how it REALLY works, they would like it?
If not, then perha[s their hatred is not based in myth and misinformation.
I think most have played a F2P game. I'ts pretty easy to download one and give it a whirl.
How does it "really" work, Imhotepp?
This is usually where I would type out a wiseass response, but that's really not going to do any good here (not that it ever does, but whatever). I'll post what I think is how it really works and I really would like to hear your thoughts on where I am missing the mark.
I think that developers know that 15% of the players will actually monetize the game. That 15% has disposable income and is more than willing to spend it for a variety of reasons. In order to keep the other 85% around, the game has to be made so that it is fun and engaging on a free level as well, seeing as the developers already know that group will not be spending any money. Since you can't draw blood from a stone, there's no point in really trying to get much money from the 85%, so most of the efforts are focused on offering purchasable items and services for the 15%. The 85% actually has a value to the devs, because they are bodies in the game. They fill the game world, and a thriving game world keeps that 15% around longer. An example of this is the recent change in DDO to a free/VIP business model. To keep the VIPs paying, they are bringing in throngs of other players for the VIPs to always have people to group with, show off their things to and socialize with.
I also think that contributes a good bit to (but is not the only reason) why F2P games are often digital download with low system reqs. The barrier to entry is kept as low as possible and the accessibility is kept as high as possible so that the throngs of free players fill the game world.
I think this isn't an MMO thing and that maybe this is done in real life, too. It's possible that "No Cover Charge For the Ladies" night isn't just because all club owners have a soft spot for being generous to women, but because they know that if there is a metric crapton of TnA all over the place, guys will come in and spend gobs of cash to try to impress them, try to score or both.
There is no hidden cost for the ladies except maybe some STDs here or there but that has nothing to do with the club owner and lots to do with five Long Island Iced Teas and a few poor decisions. The ladies are free content for the guys with money to burn, The more chicks you get and the higher the caliber of them, the fatter the wallets that roll in to throw money around.
I think devs who make F2P games have a vested interest in making the free players feel welcome and at home because they are part of the content that is being offered to the 15%.
I think the events and festivals and seasonal quests and little trinkets thrown at F2P players are solid examples of this vested interest in providing fun and engaging content for that 85% so that they can bank on the 15%.
Now, there definitely are some crap F2P games out there that are trying to cash in on every player. No doubt about that. If people want to play those, more power to them. That, however, is not the only approach and it certainly isn't the approach that has proven either palatable to the players or profitable to the devs.
That's just what I think. I could be completely wrong, but I have a feeling I might be right on target here.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
How does it "really" work, Imhotepp?
This is usually where I would type out a wiseass response, but that's really not going to do any good here (not that it ever does, but whatever). I'll post what I think is how it really works and I really would like to hear your thoughts on where I am missing the mark.
I think that developers know that 15% of the players will actually monetize the game. That 15% has disposable income and is more than willing to spend it for a variety of reasons. In order to keep the other 85% around, the game has to be made so that it is fun and engaging on a free level as well, seeing as the developers already know that group will not be spending any money. Since you can't draw blood from a stone, there's no point in really trying to get much money from the 85%, so most of the efforts are focused on offering purchasable items and services for the 15%. The 85% actually has a value to the devs, because they are bodies in the game. They fill the game world, and a thriving game world keeps that 15% around longer. An example of this is the recent change in DDO to a free/VIP business model. To keep the VIPs paying, they are bringing in throngs of other players for the VIPs to always have people to group with, show off their things to and socialize with.
I also think that contributes a good bit to (but is not the only reason) why F2P games are often digital download with low system reqs. The barrier to entry is kept as low as possible and the accessibility is kept as high as possible so that the throngs of free players fill the game world.
I think this isn't an MMO thing and that maybe this is done in real life, too. It's possible that "No Cover Charge For the Ladies" night isn't just because all club owners have a soft spot for being generous to women, but because they know that if there is a metric crapton of TnA all over the place, guys will come in and spend gobs of cash to try to impress them, try to score or both.
There is no hidden cost for the ladies except maybe some STDs here or there but that has nothing to do with the club owner and lots to do with five Long Island Iced Teas and a few poor decisions. The ladies are free content for the guys with money to burn, The more chicks you get and the higher the caliber of them, the fatter the wallets that roll in to throw money around.
I think devs who make F2P games have a vested interest in making the free players feel welcome and at home because they are part of the content that is being offered to the 15%.
I think the events and festivals and seasonal quests and little trinkets thrown at F2P players are solid examples of this vested interest in providing fun and engaging content for that 85% so that they can bank on the 15%.
Now, there definitely are some crap F2P games out there that are trying to cash in on every player. No doubt about that. If people want to play those, more power to them. That, however, is not the only approach and it certainly isn't the approach that has proven either palatable to the players or profitable to the devs.
That's just what I think. I could be completely wrong, but I have a feeling I might be right on target here.
THe point was simply that most people have played F2P games, but still don't like them. I don't think it'
s merely because of a misconception or misunderstanding about how they work.
They actually tried it, don't like it. Either you like a certain type of game or you don't, and a lot of people, myself included, don't like RMT games.
I really don't like the idea of RMT. Honestly, I don't like the direction most MMO's are going, but I can't do anything except refuse to purchase and complain on a forum.
I never said anything regarding people that tried games and didn't like them - to each their own. My statement was specifically about the people that post absolute misinformation and adamantly rebuke any business model outside of subscription play. Here's a few quotes to clarify:
"If the game involve money then it is not a game anymore, it's all about money."
"I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat." (Calling a game rule that one doesn't like a "cheat" is strange, no? If you don't like the rule, play a different game. It's like telling softball players they are cheating because they are allowed to use aluminum bats and the leagues you like aren't. )
"The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.
Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself." (The myth that you need to buy your way through the games to compete. A contention that has been challenged several times and there haven't been any posts replying with the list of F2P MMOs where that is the case.)
"RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players."
"IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down."
"F2P is a fringe market."
"This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that."
"-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know)
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future?
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population."
"Developers that choose to allow RMT are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will take their MMO seriously. At least not in the US." (Stated with complete disregard for the endless facts and data that support everything to the contrary.)
"Thats the whole draw of RMT in the first place...a way to compete buy buying your way to the goal rather than earning it." (Another example of a myth or misinformation repeated by those adamantly against RMT.)
That's just from two pages. There's plenty more and a lot of really juicy ones, too. The point is that the people who have this zero tolerance policy for RMT have a lot in common - myths and misinformation.
When you tell them that it is within the rules of game X, they respond with "Well, to me, it's cheating."
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
They say that RMT destroys the economy of a game, but when you provide information and historical data to the contrary they will refuse to believe it.
To clarify for you, I have not said that people need to like RMT or should like it. I have not said it is better or worse than any other business model. What I HAVE said is that many of the people who have stated an unconditional dislike or even hatred for RMT have based it off misinformation and myth, and the worst part about it is that when you try to present the truth to them or ask them to support their position with facts they will have no part of that.
That's kinda scary. Fanatic scary.
So, you still have not answered my question, Imhotepp.You said that people would stop playing RMT MMOs if they knew how they really work. I gave you my thoughts on that. Since you brought it up, I am anxious to hear from you how RMT MMOs "really" work.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
Even if no examples can be shown, how does that invalidate the arguments against RMT?
Thats like someone saying "getting shot in the head is probably bad for your health", and then someone else saying "well, do you actually know anyone who's been shot in the head?", as if that invalidates what the first person said. Gimme a break.
Both a ridiculous and flawed example as you could easily provide plenty of data on people dying or suffering impairment from getting shot in the head.
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market, refused to acknowledge that PLEX is RMT and made up his own definition for RMT.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Both a ridiculous and flawed example as you could easily provide plenty of data on people dying or suffering impairment from getting shot in the head.
But if no one had ever been shot in the head before, it would be ridiculous to make the assumption that it would be a bad thing?
Uh huh.
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market
It is. Add up all the P2P players for all P2P MMOs, and all the F2P players, and tell me what the ratio is.
refused to acknowledge that PLEX is RMT and made up his own definition for RMT.
as opposed to equating buying a costume part with buying god mode?
Both a ridiculous and flawed example as you could easily provide plenty of data on people dying or suffering impairment from getting shot in the head.
Then again, you're the fellow that said F2P was a fringe market, refused to acknowledge that PLEX is RMT and made up his own definition for RMT.
Atlantica Online, specifically the bonuses mounts give to combat. Only one mount, I believe, can be attained outside of the cash shop and it had no significate enhancements and was only temporary (though I may be wrong about the temp part).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's what I got from, it as well. It's really disappointing to see that people actually have a hatred for a business model and that in most of the cases presented here against RMT, that unyielding blind hatred is based entirely on misinformation and myth.
So gambling addiction is a MYTH then is it? If you give people the option of spending more money to get better, I will be so Bold to say that 60-70% would not be able to resist the temptation. Of those about 10% will spend what I would consider to mush. And 1-2% will get addicted to the cash shop.
In my book (im against legal gambling and alcohol, so you understand where im coming from) The RMT modle is a Disaster waiting to happen. Most of you debate here from your own point of view. You think its fun, you dont mind, if others spend to mush money its thier problem. This is a childs standpoint, a Grow-nup Understands the dangours and a Decent citizen speaks up against it.
Games like Entropida universe (where all transactions are real money transactions) and other Korean/asian F2P games that have large cash shops are not good for society. If we start to blur what is real and what is not (virtual goods do not Exist you know, they are just 1 and zeros). We are on dangrous grounds, Addiction, Making a living Working inside a virtual environment ( you might think this sounds cool, but its not) People also make a living playing poker online. But tens of thousands of people are also losing money on a daily basis, to make the small precent of good players money. The same will probably happen if we get RMT in MMOs a small precent will be living good of the masses. And some will become destituted because of thier addiction to the game they play.
As im guessing im speaking to children, that arnt that interested in world econami or world politics I will try to make this as esy as possiball. Organizations like the WTO and others controll the world market, and we have laws that govern Trading. In online games Its the COMPANY that made the game that controlls the Market, and you have no laws to protect you. Basically when you sign there agreement you are in thier hands. If Money gets involved on a larger scale you better hope to God that the COMPANY you play for have a sense of fairness. Or in that world you can get scamed (out of real money now) abused and fooled. This happens in EvE all the time and as I pointed out ISK in EvE, is real money as I can pay my subcription with it. On a larger scale RMT games will become ruthless environments where the strong prey upon the weak. Because there are no Laws to protect you, as there are if you get scamed out of your money in real life.
I have argued long and hard why I think in the long run its not good for humans to start putting value in virtual items. Look at your economic crash in the US, its based on the same thing people making money from nothing, in the End the bubble has to break!
Now you can call me a hater, and you can call me a Crusader, it dosent take away the fact that in the wrong hands and done by the wrong people, Real Money Transactions in games are a BAD THING. That have many potential risks for the consumer....
I couldn''t have asked for a better reply.
Thanks, Zlayer!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
But honestly now Lynx Is it a myth:
1, That People get scamed in EvE and you can use that scam ISK to pay for your subscription?
2, That in Sweden (the country I live in) RMT companies using Phone bills to pay for items have Exploited little children. Who made calls behind thier parants backs. Leaving the familys with gigantic phonebills?
3, People get addicted to games, be it poker, playing online 24/7 or just spending way to mush money on thier hobby. now time is free spending money can lead to alot of other social missfortunes, like getting evicted form your home etc..
Now in a P2P game you have a subcription, you can controll just how mush money you spend. But it an RMT games you are free to spend as mush cash as you like. Now you and me we can hopefully controll this. But alot of people cant.
Im speaking in a socialistic view point where its the state or the goverments jobb to prevent its citizens from getting Exploited. But with the Internet and international laws, we as consumers are bieng subjected to alot of new threats. One of them are the Asian RMT modual and the Swedish made Entropida Universe ( sweeds are good at making money) that focus on taking the customer for a ride and spending thier hard earned money on virtual items.
Now as our goverments cant protect us its our moral duty to speak up and stop this Bullshit. and like any good fanatic I will end with this quote:
This is where we hold them! this is where we fight! this is where they die!
I never said anything regarding people that tried games and didn't like them - to each their own. My statement was specifically about the people that post absolute misinformation and adamantly rebuke any business model outside of subscription play. Here's a few quotes to clarify:
"If the game involve money then it is not a game anymore, it's all about money."
"I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat." (Calling a game rule that one doesn't like a "cheat" is strange, no? If you don't like the rule, play a different game. It's like telling softball players they are cheating because they are allowed to use aluminum bats and the leagues you like aren't. )
"The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.
Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself." (The myth that you need to buy your way through the games to compete. A contention that has been challenged several times and there haven't been any posts replying with the list of F2P MMOs where that is the case.)
"RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players."
"IF we want fair gamplay RMT needs to be shut down."
"F2P is a fringe market."
"This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that."
"-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money
-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know)
-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs.
-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future?
-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners.
THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point.
In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population."
"Developers that choose to allow RMT are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will take their MMO seriously. At least not in the US." (Stated with complete disregard for the endless facts and data that support everything to the contrary.)
"Thats the whole draw of RMT in the first place...a way to compete buy buying your way to the goal rather than earning it." (Another example of a myth or misinformation repeated by those adamantly against RMT.)
That's just from two pages. There's plenty more and a lot of really juicy ones, too. The point is that the people who have this zero tolerance policy for RMT have a lot in common - myths and misinformation.
When you tell them that it is within the rules of game X, they respond with "Well, to me, it's cheating."
They say that they don't like RMT because people can buy powerful weapons or gain 'significant advantages' and you ask which MMOs you can buy powerful weapons in, they don't reply.
They say that RMT destroys the economy of a game, but when you provide information and historical data to the contrary they will refuse to believe it.
To clarify for you, I have not said that people need to like RMT or should like it. I have not said it is better or worse than any other business model. What I HAVE said is that many of the people who have stated an unconditional dislike or even hatred for RMT have based it off misinformation and myth, and the worst part about it is that when you try to present the truth to them or ask them to support their position with facts they will have no part of that.
That's kinda scary. Fanatic scary.
So, you still have not answered my question, Imhotepp.You said that people would stop playing RMT MMOs if they knew how they really work. I gave you my thoughts on that. Since you brought it up, I am anxious to hear from you how RMT MMOs "really" work.
To clarify, I have not said people will stop playing RMT games if they know how they work. I have said that the majority of people stating their dislike or hatred of RMT games are not doing so from ignorance. Rather, they are doing so, from experience since it's rather easy to download a an RMT game and try it, and I think most have. Not like, I've never tried Piscachio ice cream, but I'm sure it tastes bad, but I had a spoonful of it and don't care for another.
First to answer your question, I think RMT MMOs "really work" exactly how you explained it, AND exactly how the posters you quoted from explained it as well.
I think you are arguing over semantics and opinion.
I don't think you or the posters you have quoted are saying anything different, but you are both expressing your opinions about how you feel RMT affects game play, and you can't be wrong about how you feel.
I appreciate your perspective, and I did read your entire post. It was well thought out, complete with quotes to back your position, and I think you made your point very well.
However, it's not really a factual issue, IMO.
For example, when referring to RMT "Well, to me it's cheating".
You are right, that you can't "cheat" if something is part of the rules. However, let's say we change the rules of Chess and say if your opponent looks away, it's ok to move one of his pieces. Now, technically that would not be cheating, since it's now part of the rules. But could you not see someonoe expressing themselves by saying "To me, it's cheating" meaning, I don't want to play the game with this rule, because even if tecnically then it would not be cheating it would still feel like cheating from my perspective?
I think all of the quotes you listed are the same as the example above. BOTH parties are right, from thier perspective. Like Pistachio ice cream tastes nasty, or tastes good. BOTH people could be right, from their perspective.
RMT is cheating, or RMT cannot be cheating because it's part of the game.
Or another example "Destroys the economy of the game". This depends on what you think destroys the economy of the game. You could be using the definition of "the game will no longer work to the point there is rampant inflation of one million percent, or a complete lack of money", or something game breaking like that.
Or you could mean if people can buy items with real money instead of working for them or trading for them, the economy from your perspective is broken.
Or the statement about RMT allowing you to purchase powerful items. What's "powerful"? From the P2P players any item that can give you any advantage might fall into that definition. You stated in one post you bought a hat that gives you a plus to something or another, very minor advantage. From the P2P player's perspective, this could be game breaking for them, and of compltely no consequence from your perspective. Having a game where you cannot buy "powerful items" would mean from the P2P perspective, NO ITEMS which give you ANY ADVANTAGE in game. Not one point of mana, not one hit point, not one slight advantage on any stat. Otherwise, from the P2P perspective, balance is wrecked. Admittedly from your point of view, this is not true, and the game is just fine.
So, no "misinformation or myth" in my opinion, but a different perspective on RMT and how it affects the game from your own point of view.
The only one I will say that I agree is a myth is that RMT is a fringe design, or not popular. I think it is a mainstream design model, and very popular.
Me: It is. Add up all the P2P players for all P2P MMOs, and all the F2P players, and tell me what the ratio is.
Maple Story, DOFUS, Runescape, Silkroad Online. I'll end my F2P list there.
I missed the figures showing how many people play those games. Are you saying you do not know?
If not, then how did you determine that F2P games are not a fringe market?
Your biggest problem here is that you have no knowledge of the topic you are trying to discuss
...says the guy who cannot provide subscriber figures to prove his point. Uh huh.
It is not a problem for me that you feel I do not have knowledge of the topic I am trying to discuss. You are entitled to your opinion. The fact that you feel my "lack of knowledge" is not obvious enough for you not to respond really says all that needs to be said I think.
RMT is still the less common MMO model, but it is clearly growing. This is why the people against it are so anxious to make their point. Clearly many people fear that the game genre they love is changing in a way they don't like.
Personally I believe that most of those that are anti-RMT are attacking the wrong group.
I like RMT but I am NOT your enemy.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers. These people pretend that they never cheat and they want a level playing field and yet they spend, spend, spend breaking the Eula and the economy in your game.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
The ideal solution is RMT for those that want it, and non RMT for those that consider it anti-game. If I leave your game because I want RMT then you should be happy.
BTW
There is never a level playing field in any online game unless you are playing only with your friends. This is annoying I know, but the sooner you learn to accept it the more fun you will have.
RMT is still the less common MMO model
...in the same way that the Green Party is the "less popular" party compared to Republicans and Democrats...
This is why the people against it are so anxious to make their point.
Those people would not include me. I merely stated an opinion, and a few people on here attacked that opinion.
Clearly many people fear that the game genre they love is changing in a way they don't like.
I personally do not share this fear. I do not believe that F2P games will ever be able to offer the same quality as P2P. Even DDO proves this...to get all the content, you have to buy it. F2P is a stripped down version of their P2P model...basically like a really good trial version.
I dont think a true F2P model is sustainable. The quality will suffer because they do not have a means of supporting the necessary staff to compete with P2P games.
The DDO example is probably as good as it is going to get for F2P. It will be an option within a P2P framework, not true F2P.
Personally I believe that most of those that are anti-RMT are attacking the wrong group.I like RMT but I am NOT your enemy.
There are no enemies. I dont want to prevent you from playing in RMT games if you want. I just dont want to play in those games with you...and I believe the vast majority of MMo players (over 70% if my poll is any indication) will do the same thing.
RMT makes the game unfair in the eyes of most MMO players IMO. That is what makes it unappealing to most people.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers.
They are being dealt with by the developers of those games. And the developers that fail to deal with them sufficiently, they will lose subscriptions because of it. Buying gold is just one form of cheating, and cheaters will always be present to some degree in all MMOs.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
You have no way of knowing how common they really are. You are making an assumption.
The ideal solution is RMT for those that want it, and non RMT for those that consider it anti-game.
The people who want RMT can move their asses over to RMT-friendly games. So I dont see the problem. There is a market (however small) that caters to them. So why pollute my game with RMT, especially if the majority of people playing that game dont want it?
If I leave your game because I want RMT then you should be happy.
If the alternative to you not cheating in "my" game is to introduce RMT into "my" game, then I would rather you just continue cheating, with the risk of getting caught. Introducing RMT (aka, legal cheating) is much worse IMO.
There is never a level playing field in any online game unless you are playing only with your friends.
Irrelevant even if true...no matter how bad it is now, introducing RMT would make it worse IMO.
This is annoying I know, but the sooner you learn to accept it the more fun you will have.
I'm already having fun now. The RMT people are the ones who want to change things. I like things the way they are already.
Your enemy IS all the players that play non RMT games and yet continue to buy stuff from the gold sellers.
They are being dealt with by the developers of those games. And the developers that fail to deal with them sufficiently will lose subscriptions because of it. Buying gold is just one form of cheating, and cheaters will always be present to some degree in all MMOs.
The big problem is that they are NOT just a small minority. You know this because almost every game you play is polluted by gold sellers.
You have no way of knowing how common they really are. You are making an assumption.
That is ignoring all the estimations and evidence. There is an estimated 500k-1M employed in Chinese gold farming business. There is a REGISTERED 6000 companies in China (registered, this is HARD data). There are estimation of average spending from $10-$90 per year per player on RMT. All point to a much better problem then you think.
Plus, Blizzard is NOT dealing with it effectively. Anyone can buy some gold easily. You can easily do an experiment to verify that. And no one is leaving WOW, at least NOT because of this. I don't think you understand the how prevalent, and the scope of illegal RMT.
If you look at station exchange, which is LEGAL RMT between players, the particpation rate is 22% of their player base. That is hard data. So that is evidence that a sizable player population (22% in this case) WILL participate in RMT.
And btw, all you have done is give your opinion and provide ZERO evidence. You said it is not a big problem. Do YOU have any evidence to back it up? All you do is to make wild guesses, and discount all the research done by others. People who extrapolate numbers from some hard data is a lot more credible than people who guesses from NOTHING.