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Aion, very disappointed.

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  • YakoMan89YakoMan89 Member Posts: 8

    I must say I like aion, its has a lot of good to it.  I played a lot of mmo's but aion is top notch.  

     

    last I checked there is still time till fall 09.  So lets not jump the gun, they might add a few small things to make the game that much better.  This is still closed beta, we are meant to look for bugs and give are feedback.

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Member Posts: 2,414
    Originally posted by avalon1000


    Just a reminder that the preview is under a NDA.  



     

    An NDA on an already released game is useless. From what I've seen in this thread, there is nothing different in the EU/NA game than the China or Korean versions, outside of lackluster text translations.

    So if people post Chinese Aion screenies that happen to be identical to the EU/NA counterpart, are they breaking that ridiculous NDA?

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • BigMangoBigMango Member UncommonPosts: 1,821
    Originally posted by YakoMan89


    I must say I like aion, its has a lot of good to it.  I played a lot of mmo's but aion is top notch.  
     
    last I checked there is still time till fall 09.  So lets not jump the gun, they might add a few small things to make the game that much better.  This is still closed beta, we are meant to look for bugs and give are feedback.

     

    Right, we are playing on an early version 1.0 ; Korea retail is already on version 1.3.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by BigMango

    Originally posted by FreedomBlade


    Yet another sad EQ clone. WTF do people even bother getting excited about these crappy clones. 
    Please do not give money to yet another half arsed point and clicky shitty game.
    Seriously people need to stop playing this kind of mindless nonsence and try the breed of games out there like Darkfall and Fallen Earth.
    SHITTY POINT AND CLICKY = SHIT GAME.

     

    FYI Aion uses WASD and/or right+left mouse click to move and/or point and click, which you can completely disable in the options if you want. Everyone can chose to play as they want.

     

    Next time try to take example form some of the other good trolls in this thread; get yourself informed first and try to sneak in some real information when you are posting some over exaggerated BS ..... makes it less obvious

     

    I would think he is referring to point and click combat, since he mentioned both darkfall and fallen earth. Which both have twitch based combat. I do agree with his sentiment just not his execution of it. Those who feel that way should just be glad there are a few games coming out that try something different as far as combat is concerned.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SarrSarr Member UncommonPosts: 466
    Originally posted by Malickie



    I would think he is referring to point and click combat, since he mentioned both darkfall and fallen earth. Which both have twitch based combat. I do agree with his sentiment just not his execution of it. Those who feel that way should just be glad there are a few games coming out that try something different as far as combat is concerned.

     

    But Darkfall wasn't first. First twitch based game was is this game:

    www.xfire.com/profile/sarr77/videos/ddo

    And no one made combat or environment as interactive to date, though many try.

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  • FreedomBladeFreedomBlade Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Originally posted by Sarr

    Originally posted by Malickie



    I would think he is referring to point and click combat, since he mentioned both darkfall and fallen earth. Which both have twitch based combat. I do agree with his sentiment just not his execution of it. Those who feel that way should just be glad there are a few games coming out that try something different as far as combat is concerned.

     

    But Darkfall wasn't first. First twitch based game was is this game:

    www.xfire.com/profile/sarr77/videos/ddo

    And no one made combat or environment as interactive to date, though many try.

     

    Yes you are right DDO had great combat, I never understood why the game was not more popular. I might even give it another go. 

    The first true FPS (twitch based) MMO was PlanetSide though, came out in 2003.

    image

  • bleyzwunbleyzwun Member UncommonPosts: 1,087
    Originally posted by Alejux


    Aion would be a great game, if the year was 2006. 
     
    I admit I only got to level 10. I wanted real bad to get my wings and try the flying...so I endured nearly 4 hours of some of the most boring and uninnovative PVE gameplay that I have ever witnessed.  Seriously!  The idea that going around killing lots of cartoonish mobs, using only 1 or 2 skills for 4 hours is appealing to me as doing root canal.
     
    Why didn't they include new skills at earlier levels? 
     
    Then, finally, after all the hard work, I got to the Eylios main city (which is really cool btw), and got 5 or 6 new skills. Then I was finally ready to fly!!!
     
    Except...that you don't really fly in Aion.  You float on the air flapping your wings.  There is none of the cool flying dynamics one would expect (if flying).  You can't glide while flying, or dive, or catch an ascendant  wind. If you stop pressing the forward key, you just stay still in the air.    Another irritating thing was all those invisible walls in the air.  What's the point of flying if you can't have freedom?  There's already a time restriction, why make invisible walls too?
     
    I was disappointed with the game.  Maybe it gets better after a certain level.  But still,  I feel disappointed that NC Soft couldn't do a more innovative game-play. 
     
     
     

     

    I agree the flying doesn't really feel like flying.  It feels a lot like WoW's gryphons, etc.  The only thing I don't understand is why you say there is no diving or gliding... I thought the R key flew up, and the F key was for dive, and space was for gliding?  I clearly remember doing those actions, but like I said, it still felt like WoW's gryphons.

  • Cristina1Cristina1 Member UncommonPosts: 372
    Originally posted by FreedomBlade

    Originally posted by Sarr

    Originally posted by Malickie



    I would think he is referring to point and click combat, since he mentioned both darkfall and fallen earth. Which both have twitch based combat. I do agree with his sentiment just not his execution of it. Those who feel that way should just be glad there are a few games coming out that try something different as far as combat is concerned.

     

    But Darkfall wasn't first. First twitch based game was is this game:

    www.xfire.com/profile/sarr77/videos/ddo

    And no one made combat or environment as interactive to date, though many try.

     

    Yes you are right DDO had great combat, I never understood why the game was not more popular. I might even give it another go. 

    The first true FPS (twitch based) MMO was PlanetSide though, came out in 2003.

     

    Nope, it was World war 2 Online MMO 2002.

  • haggus71haggus71 Member Posts: 254
    Originally posted by bleyzwun

    Originally posted by Alejux


    Aion would be a great game, if the year was 2006. 
     
    I admit I only got to level 10. I wanted real bad to get my wings and try the flying...so I endured nearly 4 hours of some of the most boring and uninnovative PVE gameplay that I have ever witnessed.  Seriously!  The idea that going around killing lots of cartoonish mobs, using only 1 or 2 skills for 4 hours is appealing to me as doing root canal.
     
    Why didn't they include new skills at earlier levels? 
     
    Then, finally, after all the hard work, I got to the Eylios main city (which is really cool btw), and got 5 or 6 new skills. Then I was finally ready to fly!!!
     
    Except...that you don't really fly in Aion.  You float on the air flapping your wings.  There is none of the cool flying dynamics one would expect (if flying).  You can't glide while flying, or dive, or catch an ascendant  wind. If you stop pressing the forward key, you just stay still in the air.    Another irritating thing was all those invisible walls in the air.  What's the point of flying if you can't have freedom?  There's already a time restriction, why make invisible walls too?
     
    I was disappointed with the game.  Maybe it gets better after a certain level.  But still,  I feel disappointed that NC Soft couldn't do a more innovative game-play. 
     
     
     

     

    I agree the flying doesn't really feel like flying.  It feels a lot like WoW's gryphons, etc.  The only thing I don't understand is why you say there is no diving or gliding... I thought the R key flew up, and the F key was for dive, and space was for gliding?  I clearly remember doing those actions, but like I said, it still felt like WoW's gryphons.

    Wow.  Just...wow.

    You all do realize this is a first peek closed beta....rriiigggghhht?  Just because you all grind through it like you do a Big Mac, doesn't mean everyone else does the same.  Hell, I haven't even busted through level 10, and I've had a blast.  It's like they took the best of Guild Wars and Lineage II, gave AoC-level graphics that can be played on a LAPTOP, and even made the grind fun.

    This was just to get a taste of the game.  If you were expecting to grind your way through the whole game, over the weekend, you are a moron.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by IceAge


    Finaly a game is releasing without bugs, lag free, enough contents , beautiful world, nice customatization, etc and you guys start bashing it BECAUSE it use the same formula from other games and put in into one?
    Then my "friends" what are you doing in the world of MMO's? Go play consoles, single player RPG's and so on and stop crying because Aion brings nothing new to the table ( they NEVER stated that Aion will come with something new and innovation ) . I am sold to a game like Aion because of the simple fact that it's polished and has add alot of features from already released games into ONE GAME.
    I understood when AoC and War came out when alot of players gave them negative feedback because they were bugged and not enough contents , but how in the hell could you give negative feedback to a game BECAUSE it use the same formula which works?!
    Cristina1, PLEASE go back to your .. LOVELY game, Darkfall :)
    Solareus , .. go play whatever game you want if you are comparing Aion graphic to .. Rapplez graphic, and you see nothing new on it.
     

    I would like to kiss this man on the mouth. Maybe even with tongue.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033
    Originally posted by Staminix

    Originally posted by Synthetick

    Originally posted by Jimmydean


    Obviously it's come to the point where everyone expects to receive a Handjob upon entering the playing realm of a new game. Aion never said it was innovative, it takes the features of the current genre and improves on them. WoW wasn't intuitive either, and it's done quite well.
     
    Also, judging and MMO on the first 10 levels? Smart. I'm sure you enjoyed Heroic Striking your way through level 10 and Sinister Striking your way through level 10 as well, much more action packed.
     
    And to top it off, I hit lvl 20 in China live without grinding once, so I don't know where you are pulling your info from.



    Couldn't agree with the entire post more.



    I went from 1-10 in under 2 hours, easy, with quests still to complete. I seriously question if I play the same game as half these people. I thought the story line was actually pretty decent, nothing spectacular, but works fine for an MMO. 1400x900 widescreen resolution looked fine, didn't feel like I was missing part of the picture? No reason to group? The areas are too small with too many people? They're channeled, it's populated like that because it's a preview weekend, lol.

     Aion doesn't bring anything new to the table...

     

    Which is why I ask why purchase and exchange one whack-a-mole themepark game for another when in fact this game doesnt bring anything new to the table.  Because, perhaps, folks are bored of what their currently in and find acceptance in throwing their money away on something with a new box.

  • Cochran1Cochran1 Member Posts: 456

    If a game can't hold my attention for more than the first few lvls why should I give it more time. There is no excuse for a game being bland from the beginning and we've all heard " it will get better as the lvls come " with a few games over the past 2 years. In almost all cases it turns out if the beginning of the game sucks, the rest of it will too.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Staminix

    Originally posted by Synthetick

    Originally posted by Jimmydean


    Obviously it's come to the point where everyone expects to receive a Handjob upon entering the playing realm of a new game. Aion never said it was innovative, it takes the features of the current genre and improves on them. WoW wasn't intuitive either, and it's done quite well.
     
    Also, judging and MMO on the first 10 levels? Smart. I'm sure you enjoyed Heroic Striking your way through level 10 and Sinister Striking your way through level 10 as well, much more action packed.
     
    And to top it off, I hit lvl 20 in China live without grinding once, so I don't know where you are pulling your info from.



    Couldn't agree with the entire post more.



    I went from 1-10 in under 2 hours, easy, with quests still to complete. I seriously question if I play the same game as half these people. I thought the story line was actually pretty decent, nothing spectacular, but works fine for an MMO. 1400x900 widescreen resolution looked fine, didn't feel like I was missing part of the picture? No reason to group? The areas are too small with too many people? They're channeled, it's populated like that because it's a preview weekend, lol.

     Aion doesn't bring anything new to the table...

     

    Which is why I ask why purchase and exchange one whack-a-mole themepark game for another when in fact this game doesnt bring anything new to the table.  Because, perhaps, folks are bored of what their currently in and find acceptance in throwing their money away on something with a new box.

    You are correct and incorrect at the same time. Aion doesn't re-invent the way MMORPGs are played, it never was meant to. It does however, bring new things to the table. It brings Wings, PvPvE, and a whole new Story, World, Community, Game Style, Dungeon Design, Music Design, and much more to the table.

    So while Aion does not "re-invent" the wheel as you would say, it does however have some blinging chrome rims with spinners on them.

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,846
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Staminix


     Aion doesn't bring anything new to the table...

     

    Which is why I ask why purchase and exchange one whack-a-mole themepark game for another when in fact this game doesnt bring anything new to the table.  Because, perhaps, folks are bored of what their currently in and find acceptance in throwing their money away on something with a new box.



     

     

    Well in that sense I haven't seen an MMO bring anything new to the table since UO/EQ (I didn't play M59 or NwN's on AOL) and you could argue that UO/EQ just brought something you already had in single player games.

     

    So exactly what MMO are YOU ever going to play?

     

    I've never actually quite understoond what this "new" thing is some mysterious MMO is supposed to bring... I guess.  Even MMO's that are trying "new" things are just taking things we already have... in some kind of game (thus not new).  Then again I guess that's how I started this reply.

     

    Its kind of like.. after a while almost every movie you see is a movie you've already seen.  So what you're saying is... you should never see a movie again because you are just throwing your money away.  Same with books etc etc etc

     

    Doesn't matter if its entertaining... its just the fact its already been done... because that is the exact same relative comparison.

     

    The only thing that matters "box" to "box' is if the person buying it.. finds it entertaining.  If you don't find the games you are buying fun... then sure I'd agree its tossing money away.

  • BigMangoBigMango Member UncommonPosts: 1,821
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Staminix


     Aion doesn't bring anything new to the table...


    Which is why I ask why purchase and exchange one whack-a-mole themepark game for another when in fact this game doesnt bring anything new to the table.  Because, perhaps, folks are bored of what their currently in and find acceptance in throwing their money away on something with a new box.

     

    While not ground breaking, Aion does bring together a lot of things I have been missing for years in other games. When added up, all these small details make for a refreshing game.

    Things like, for example:

    • stats changing in real time depending on your position - this really is something for pvp.
    • 3rd NPC played faction (how the AI works out remains to be seen)
    • polished world life, mobs and NPCs fighting each other, details like footprints on relevant surfaces, avatars and NPCs reacting to the environment and doing more than just standing around,...
    • a world and avatar art direction I like (couldn't stand wow, didn't really like eq2 and Vanguard, loved Lotro but found the avatars lacking, etc...)
    • good combat with a feeling as opposed to the slow/boring combat in most western mmos
    • etc...

     

    All these details, including the things some games already do in some form, Aion puts them together and does them better; to me it feels like a new game.

     

     

  • YakoMan89YakoMan89 Member Posts: 8

     For those don't say this is another grind fest, WTF THIS IS A MMORPG.  In case some of u don't know how that works i will explain.

    1. Quest.

    2. Kill

    3. Collect reward

    4. lvl up

    5. Buy better equipment/skills

    6. Repeat.

     

    - -" kind of annoying to hear people say ohh no new content, well I guess the flying combat, is in every mmo right?  Most mmorpg's your glued to the ground and can't even jump.  Aion looks like it has lot of potential.  So give it some time, 

     

    Before a flower blooms in to its beauty remember that at one time it was a seed.

     

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993
    Originally posted by YakoMan89


     For those don't say this is another grind fest, WTF THIS IS A MMORPG.  In case some of u don't know how that works i will explain.
    1. Quest.
    2. Kill
    3. Collect reward
    4. lvl up
    5. Buy better equipment/skills
    6. Repeat.
     
    - -" kind of annoying to hear people say ohh no new content, well I guess the flying combat, is in every mmo right?  Most mmorpg's your glued to the ground and can't even jump.  Aion looks like it has lot of potential.  So give it some time, 
     
    Before a flower blooms in to its beauty remember that at one time it was a seed.
     

    That's how it worked since WoW or AO or EQ. But that's not the only way MMO's work. Look up Ultima Online and settle down.

    Freaking MMO newbies trying to get loud. LOL

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Sarr

    Originally posted by Malickie



    I would think he is referring to point and click combat, since he mentioned both darkfall and fallen earth. Which both have twitch based combat. I do agree with his sentiment just not his execution of it. Those who feel that way should just be glad there are a few games coming out that try something different as far as combat is concerned.

     

    But Darkfall wasn't first. First twitch based game was is this game:

    www.xfire.com/profile/sarr77/videos/ddo

    And no one made combat or environment as interactive to date, though many try.

    I never said it was first, as another poster pointed out there have been twitch based mmo's since wwII OL. Though the few that are available are dated and/or have low populations.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 3,203
    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by YakoMan89


     For those don't say this is another grind fest, WTF THIS IS A MMORPG.  In case some of u don't know how that works i will explain.
    1. Quest.
    2. Kill
    3. Collect reward
    4. lvl up
    5. Buy better equipment/skills
    6. Repeat.
     
    - -" kind of annoying to hear people say ohh no new content, well I guess the flying combat, is in every mmo right?  Most mmorpg's your glued to the ground and can't even jump.  Aion looks like it has lot of potential.  So give it some time, 
     
    Before a flower blooms in to its beauty remember that at one time it was a seed.
     

    That's how it worked since WoW or AO or EQ. But that's not the only way MMO's work. Look up Ultima Online and settle down.

    Freaking MMO newbies trying to get loud. LOL

    Oh .. you are the number 1 troll those days on Aion forum, side by side with .. solarus? solarous? ..something like that.

     

    Yes, there are other games which doesn't "run" in the same way ( but close enough ) as Aion/WoW/EQ/Etc, but quess what, how many they are still playing the game? Yes, it was a blast at that time, but not now. I don't deny that if a game company will come those days with a combination between UO/WoW/AO/EQ + new features will not be a success, but quess what ( again ) , you will then be nr 1 troll ( along with others ) who will keep saying "COPY OF WOW, COPY OF UO, COPY OF ..."

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • WarpigletWarpiglet Member Posts: 78
    Originally posted by solareus


    Crytek engine is 5 years old. One of the first things I felt in the game was, wow , the trees are a huge fail. Recycled from Guild Wars. The water is like Lineage 2 , My character can't swim. THe texture maps wow, so classic to Lineage 2, with a slight wowish hint on the architecture.  The performance of the game was amazing, cause it is a half decade old game engine running on next gen computers.
    If you love Korean style mmo , that are a cross from grind and questing with a pretty open field of doing either or, then you will love this game. For myself after getting to level 3 , grinding, with no really motivation from the opening content to continue, I just logged off. For me the direction of who I am , or what my race is about in the first opening llevels are what pull me in. I've grinded before, I have done mediocre quests before, and I've flown before ,in a game as dated as Shadowbane.
    NcSoft is failing to get something fresh, and Aion is a mix bag of nuts of everything they done before.



     

    Hey buddy, fyi it is a heavily MODIFIED Crytek engine they are using. This engine is one of the best out there right now. Why reinvent the wheel? What would the purpose be of pumping in huge development dollars into getting a new engine that 80% of the computers could not run? lol. Buddy you really need to think before you speak. Maybe you and i have $4000.00 pc's that can handle what you are expecting but others don't. Thanks for the laugh tho buddy, i needed it.

    This game rocks people, just wait tille you get to the later levels.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993
    Originally posted by IceAge

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by YakoMan89


     For those don't say this is another grind fest, WTF THIS IS A MMORPG.  In case some of u don't know how that works i will explain.
    1. Quest.
    2. Kill
    3. Collect reward
    4. lvl up
    5. Buy better equipment/skills
    6. Repeat.
     
    - -" kind of annoying to hear people say ohh no new content, well I guess the flying combat, is in every mmo right?  Most mmorpg's your glued to the ground and can't even jump.  Aion looks like it has lot of potential.  So give it some time, 
     
    Before a flower blooms in to its beauty remember that at one time it was a seed.
     

    That's how it worked since WoW or AO or EQ. But that's not the only way MMO's work. Look up Ultima Online and settle down.

    Freaking MMO newbies trying to get loud. LOL

    Oh .. you are the number 1 troll those days on Aion forum, side by side with .. solarus? solarous? ..something like that.

     

    Yes, there are other games which doesn't "run" in the same way ( but close enough ) as Aion/WoW/EQ/Etc, but quess what, how many they are still playing the game? Yes, it was a blast at that time, but not now. I don't deny that if a game company will come those days with a combination between UO/WoW/AO/EQ + new features will not be a success, but quess what ( again ) , you will then be nr 1 troll ( along with others ) who will keep saying "COPY OF WOW, COPY OF UO, COPY OF ..."

    Honestly, you can call me a troll all you want but the fact will never change. Aion is nothing special. What you've basically said about being a "blast at that time, but not now" describes Aion completely. The WoW approach was a blast 5 years ago, when WoW came out. And it still is a blast... In WoW. It's not a blast in Aion because WoW did it and it was a blast... in WoW.

    It's not a blast in Aion because Aion is about 5 years too late to be a blast.

    Edit: Warpiglet, the engine used for Aion is most definitely not one of the best when it comes to graphics. It's good, don't get me wrong but LOTRO and AoC look much better.

    image

  • WarpigletWarpiglet Member Posts: 78

    Seems all you people gripe and complain about questing and stuff. In case you don't know, the game dosen't start till you max out and are basically done questing. If you don't like questing and want to get to the end and play the real game, pay a Chinese power leveler to get you past what you hate so much. While you are getting your toon power leveled you can just play with yourself.

    Course once you get your toon back at max level everyone will be saying you bought it off ebay cause you lack the skill to use it.

    And Heartless, he was not calling you a troll it was that ice guy he was refering to.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993
    Originally posted by Warpiglet


    Seems all you people gripe and complain about questing and stuff. In case you don't know, the game dosen't start till you max out and are basically done questing. If you don't like questing and want to get to the end and play the real game, pay a Chinese power leveler to get you past what you hate so much. While you are getting your toon power leveled you can just play with yourself.
    Course once you get your toon back at max level everyone will be saying you bought it off ebay cause you lack the skill to use it.
    And Heartless, he was not calling you a troll it was that ice guy he was refering to.

     

    It's the same excuse I've heard since I've started playing MMO's. It doesn't work anymore. It may work for you, and that's great. But I will not pay $50 + $15 per month just to see if the game does, in fact, start after max level.

    Moreover, what is the point of having the rest of the game if it doesn't really start until max level? Why not just skip to the max level?

    image

  • madeuxmadeux Member Posts: 1,786
    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Warpiglet


    Seems all you people gripe and complain about questing and stuff. In case you don't know, the game dosen't start till you max out and are basically done questing. If you don't like questing and want to get to the end and play the real game, pay a Chinese power leveler to get you past what you hate so much. While you are getting your toon power leveled you can just play with yourself.
    Course once you get your toon back at max level everyone will be saying you bought it off ebay cause you lack the skill to use it.
    And Heartless, he was not calling you a troll it was that ice guy he was refering to.

     

    It's the same excuse I've heard since I've started playing MMO's. It doesn't work anymore. It may work for you, and that's great. But I will not pay $50 + $15 per month just to see if the game does, in fact, start after max level.

    Moreover, what is the point of having the rest of the game if it doesn't really start until max level? Why not just skip to the max level?

    Just try the game for yourself.  I'm playing it, and I'm having fun in an MMO for the first time in over a year.  that's not to say that this game is perfect, it has its flaws as all games will, but it's still good.  I'm only level 10, and I just got my wings.  I've gotten more and more into the world and lore with each level, the idea that the game doesn't start until Max level is just stupid.

  • ElectriceyeElectriceye Member UncommonPosts: 1,171
    Originally posted by heartless


     
    It's the same excuse I've heard since I've started playing MMO's. It doesn't work anymore. It may work for you, and that's great. But I will not pay $50 + $15 per month just to see if the game does, in fact, start after max level.
    Moreover, what is the point of having the rest of the game if it doesn't really start until max level? Why not just skip to the max level?

    That's whats wrong with all traditional MMOs. Even though they all 'start' at max level (which isn't true if you want to really enjoy the game), Aion kinda starts at lvl25, doesn't take that long to get there.

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